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Home: KOI Talk: Pond Construction & Water Filtering System:
Which is more dangerous, high or low pH?

 




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Anonymous
Anonymous

Feb 10, 2000, 7:51 PM

Post #1 of 43 (82943 views)
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Which is more dangerous, high or low pH? Can't Post

Hi everyone?

Of course both are dangerous. But the reason I ask the particular question is that I've made few beginners mistakes.

I've just introduced 9 small kois to my new concrete ponds. Unfortunately, the pH blow off the roof with reading almost at pH 10.

I've done the leaching process with Hydrochloric acid for more than a week. After that the pH seem like stable. So I drained the water and put fresh one for a day. The pH is around 8. Then, I introduced 7 kois in the pond. 2 days ago, I bought a Showa and Kohaku at UCP. Nice one, a Sakai and Dainichi. Now my stock is 9 kois. Today the pH value is almost 10. However, ammonia and Nitrite readings are zero. I put zeolite just to be careful of ammonia present in the pond. Did 15% water change. But pH still the same.

Later today I'm going to buy the pH down chemical.

So lesson to be learned:

1. Be patient, don't rush. Wait until water quality acceptable before stocking the pond.

2. Never buy expensive koi until acceptable water quality is achieved.

Thanks


Bancherd
User

Feb 11, 2000, 7:11 AM

Post #2 of 43 (82893 views)
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With you pH being around 10, is your water green by any chance?

I went through the same thing, leached out my concrete pond with hydrochloric acid, refilled, checked pH, around 8. Stocked up with my koi, things were OK until I had green water problem, my pH went to around 9, and stayed there(in the evening and morning). Could not figure out why my pH went so high(might be due to the algae).

Bancherd



Anonymous
Anonymous

Feb 11, 2000, 6:57 PM

Post #3 of 43 (82893 views)
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Hi Bancherd,

No the water is not turning green. At least not yet. I think the high pH due to the concrete lime.

Did you lose any fish? How did you bring the pH down and how long it took? Can you tell me about your fish reaction to the high pH? As I'm writing this message, I'm doing about 30% water change.

Thanks


Anonymous
Anonymous

Feb 11, 2000, 9:14 PM

Post #4 of 43 (82893 views)
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HELPPPPP.....

After I did 30% water change, the pH become 7.0. Within few minutes, my 4 inches chagoi seem like flashing around the surface and gasping for air. Soon after all of my 9 kois are gathering at the small waterfall.

I took the water reading as below:

pH 7.0
Ammonia 0
Nitrite less than 0.3 ppm
GH 4dH
KH 3dH

I've panic and move them to a kiddie pool and put up small pump and filter. Now is about 20 minutes they are in there. Still swimming slowly at the surface.

The pool pH is about 7 also. I put in some sodium bicarbonate.

So pls help. I don't want to loose these guys.

Thanks




Anonymous
Anonymous

Feb 11, 2000, 9:52 PM

Post #5 of 43 (82893 views)
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Hi,

Things just getting worse. 5 of them are dead already I think. Others are just going to follow. I just don't understand what has happened. It just so fast and I'm hopeless.

I think I've done nothing wrong but water change just don't justify the terrible consequence.

Any opinion anyone? I'm just about a brink of tears....


Oh Tian Huat
User

Feb 11, 2000, 11:02 PM

Post #6 of 43 (82893 views)
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Hi Alan,

If you want a chat call me at xxxxxxxx. (Singapore).

pH 10 to 7 within in a short time is bad for the fish. Did you add anything else? Is the kiddy pool water new water as well?

Koi could take pH up more then pH down swing. But 30% water change is very normal, it should not bring the pH that far down. Check the water again.

-oh-


(This post was edited by Oh Tian Huat on Jun 2, 2001, 9:00 AM)


Mark
Veteran

Feb 11, 2000, 11:18 PM

Post #7 of 43 (82893 views)
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Hi Alan
Seems to me that you are experiencing an ammonia spike or a pH swings.
pH swings of more than 2 in a short period of time may be the reason
why the koi is dying


How long did you have the cement/concrete pond? How did you treat your pond?

Is your filtration system OK? Enough cap. for the pond?

Your pond may not be ready for fish.

You did the right thing by moving the koi to the kiddy pond. You should also:-
1. Aerate your kiddy pond vigorously. Air stone helps.
2. Add salt - besides killing bugs it also calms koi.
3. If you can install a heater and bring it to 28 to 30C, it definitely help to bring up the body resistance.

If you are still lost, bring your fish to the petshop and safe keep them there. The seller should be glad to help you. Alternatively, you may want to consider a small fibre glass tank and put the young ones there for the time being. Later tank can becomes a Q-tank when you move fish to pond.

Good luck


(This post was edited by Mark Richman on Nov 2, 2000, 10:00 AM)


KokJong
User

Feb 12, 2000, 5:48 AM

Post #8 of 43 (82893 views)
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Hi guys,

1. So mcuh about aeration and the acid. What kind of filter media did you use apart from zerolites?

2. Do you have bagful of coral chips in you filter box?

3. Give Tian Huat a ring, he likes to experiment with water. I'm sure he cld give you a beeper or so.

Regards.


------------------


Anonymous
Anonymous

Feb 12, 2000, 9:54 PM

Post #9 of 43 (82893 views)
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Hi everyone,

Lost all the kois last night in the kiddie pool. May be I should what happened to my pond so that it is easy to analyze the problem.

Pond description: 4'5" x 6'8" x 4'. Two filter chamber each 3'x 1.5'. First one is filled with brush and green net. Second, is with filter mat bought in Syarikat Atari in Tmn Desa. First filter is fed by bottom drain from the pond. Then submersible pump is used in second filter to pump water out to 1 stream, 1 waterfall and 1 middle water return.

Pond finished on 28 January. Then filled with water and the waterpump is used to keep water running 24hr. Hydrochloric Acid was added up almost daily to keep pH at 5. This was done up to 6 February when the pH stay stable at 5.

On the 7th, water with acid was drained and replace with fresh tap water. 2 kg salt added along with dechlor. Add all the brush, net and filter material and let the water running.

On the 8th, pH is 8 and two kois introduced to the pond.

9th Feb, Nothing happened to the two kois and 5 kois is added. The seem active and look very hungry but I only feed them a little. I worry about ammonia building up.

10th Feb, added 2 new kois. In the afternoon, took pH reading and result is 9.5. Ammonia and Nitrite readings were zero. Add 1 bag of zeolite in 2nd filter chamber. Add 2 bottle of pH down. The amount is enough to treat 600L of water.

11th Feb, pH at 8.5 in the morning. Decided to do 30% waterchange. This suddenly made the pH swing down to 7 and the fish dying within minutes. Took out all the fish in the pond into kiddie pond and they keep dying. In the afternoon 3 hours after water change, I noticed that the water in main become chalky white.

Today, Even though there are no fish in the pond, I keep the water running. The water still chalky white and the pH is 7.

So, thanks for everyone concern. I'll gather all my strength and suck in my pride and made one commitment. I'll never give up this hobby.

To all the guru here, please give your best shot on what the problem really is. I knew may be 90% is my own mistake.

Thanks


Bancherd
User

Feb 13, 2000, 3:44 AM

Post #10 of 43 (82893 views)
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Hi Alan:

I am no guru(just got my pond going about 3 weeks earlier than you). I am sorry that you lost your fish. Believe it or not, ever since I joined this forum, sucked down all the information, I have not lost any fish!(knock on wood), as a matter of fact, I increased my fish from about 12 to 26(as of today).

I am not sure about the pH of your replacement water. The fact that your pond's pH dropped like a rock and stayed at around 7 suggested that you no longer have lime-leaching problem(if it ever were a problem). Your replacement water might be a problem.

Regarding my pond, the fish(all 26 of them!) are doing just fine. pH stayed around 9 in the evening and morning, and water was very green. Two weeks ago, I added sea-salt to 0.3%, then something happened:
pH in the evening stays around 9.
pH in the morning stays around 7.5...ouch
but the fishes are not showing anything unusual. I guess my adding salt killed off algae, adding biological load to my system, and dropped my pH. Does this make sense?

Bancherd


cch
User

Feb 13, 2000, 6:39 AM

Post #11 of 43 (82893 views)
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Hi,

When pH shot up to 9.5 in such a new pond, it is obvious that you have not cured your pond sufficiently. No other condition will shoot your pH up so fast other than your new pond condition.

Curing of new pond include adding to water to new pond and draining it off and adding again until the pH of the water is stabilized. This process may require up to a month. Adding acid will be great help but acid will only neutralized the water in the pond. So your just has to monitor your pond water a little bit longer and check pH continuously before adding koi. Drain the water in regular interval until the pH is stabilized.


Oh Tian Huat
User

Feb 13, 2000, 7:10 AM

Post #12 of 43 (82893 views)
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Hi Bancherd,

Ph swing that much is bad. Stay at 9 is better than swinging between 7.5 and 9. You might want to check your KH. Post your result. I suspect that it might be as low as 1-2 kdH.

You are right, your bio-load is high and the filter is working hard to keep the Ammonia zero. You need a lots of carbonate to support your bio-filter. Do not worry about high pH watch your kH instead.

-oh-


Mark
Veteran

Feb 13, 2000, 9:13 AM

Post #13 of 43 (82893 views)
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Hi Alan
Could you provide more info on those koi housed in the kiddy pond will be good for lesson.

Hope you don't mind we do a postmorten here:
1. Precisely, how long after transferring the koi to the kiddy pond did water turns chalky... did you say chalky - white?
2. What were those water parameters before and after putting in the koi?
3. Is your filter system colonised?
4. Take a look at your filter. Are the surface water (top 2 to 4 inches depth) clear?

My suspicions on your pond:
1. Filter not colonised. Betw Jan to Feb - these periods is not possible for filter to colonise unless you "jump start" your filter system.
2. On 7 Feb, you did 30% water change. If not decholrine, probably this water changes kills bugs which was building up in the filter. Its worst if water is filled thro' the filter system at 1st chamber.
3. 2 chambers filter system. You give 2 figures. What are they - height x width x (?)height or what?
4. Pond not ready to recieve fish!




Anonymous
Anonymous

Feb 13, 2000, 8:01 PM

Post #14 of 43 (82893 views)
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Hi,

For Mark's question,

1. No, the water in the pond that turned chalky white. The kiddie pond water is OK. Today, morning, the pond water clearing up to the point I can see the pond bottom. pH goes down to 6.5. The main pond water turn chalky within 20 minutes after the 30% water change.

2. My filter is not colonised yet. It just been treated for four days using bioenzyme.

3. Filter surface is clear.

1. Tap water is fed through main pond. I used Tetra dechlor. And I check chlorine content, undetectable.

2. Filter chamber is 3'x1.5'x 3.5'.

3. I think so.... so how long I have to wait?

For OTH question, my KH reading as posted is 3 dH. Is it too low.

Thanks
Broken hearted koi lover


Khoobg
Webmaster


Feb 13, 2000, 8:40 PM

Post #15 of 43 (82893 views)
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Hi Alan,

Like Mark has said, your pond is definitely not ready for koi yet. Do not introduce koi, especially high quality, until the ph is close to 8.0.

Once the koi is added to the pond, do not add acid as big pH swing of more than 2.0 will cause substantial pH shock to koi and this is the reason that you koi die. Just like Tian Huat said, a pH at 9.0 is still better than risking your koi with big pH swing.

Each time when your water is in acidic condition, any water change will turn your pond water to chalky white condition. If you stay in KL, most tap water is in alkali condition. Adding alkali to acid will lead to neutralization process, hence the chalky white condition.

So how long you have to wait ? What you need to do is to drain your pond water, fill up again, wait a few days and measure the pH. If the pH is still high, repeat the process until the pH is close to a stable 8.0 before introducing more koi.

Cheers


Anonymous
Anonymous

Feb 13, 2000, 9:59 PM

Post #16 of 43 (82893 views)
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Thanks Khoobg,

I'll keep that at the back of my mind forever. Today, I'll drain the water and fill up again and let the pump running for few days.

Just few questions;

1. Is it OK to introduce fish in a new pond but the filter is also brand new?

2. Last Dec 99, I saw beautiful small kois at PWTC during Aquamas 99. They were only RM38. Furthermore, they come in all type of koi. Ogon, Kohaku, Chagoi,Shusui, Shiro, Utsurimone etc. The company that put them into display is UCP. But when I went to UCP last week, they only got 6 small pond that have expensive small kois. Do you know where I can get this kind of deal around KL?
I need to find the replacement for my kois especially by next month when my pond water getting better.

I've been to Zen Watergarden and Syarikat Atari, but the quality is not that good.

Thanks
Broken hearted



Khoobg
Webmaster


Feb 13, 2000, 10:52 PM

Post #17 of 43 (82893 views)
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Hi Alan,

It is OK to add koi to pond even when the filter is new. However, do add only in small numbers and control koi feeding. Test water for ammonia and nitrite level regular to ensure they do not hit danger level.

The filter need koi waste for bacteria to colonise. When your filter is starting to be colonised by bacteria, you will observe that the ammonia and nitrite level will start to drop. From there, add more koi slowly. Beware, do not overstocked.

Cheers


Bancherd
User

Feb 14, 2000, 7:54 AM

Post #18 of 43 (82893 views)
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Alan:

Not sure if it is safe for pond, but I have read from somewhere that one could dump a small amount of household ammonia into the pond to get the filter going.

I did use this trick on my salt-water tank(years ago), and it significantly shortened the time it took for my filter to mature.

Bancherd


Khoobg
Webmaster


Feb 14, 2000, 8:39 AM

Post #19 of 43 (82893 views)
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Hello Bancherd,

Without koi in the pond, you possibly add ammonia to get the filter started. Ammonia will serve as food for the bacteria to start the cycle. If there are koi inside the pond, then just feed the koi and ammonia will be produced anyway.


Anonymous
Anonymous

Feb 15, 2000, 8:13 AM

Post #20 of 43 (82893 views)
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Hi,

My KH is low at 3 dH. Is it possible? I mean pH is high at 9 while KH is low. I've heard that concrete pond is famous for high KH and pH.

How do I drive the KH higher?

Thanks


Oh Tian Huat
User

Feb 15, 2000, 8:33 AM

Post #21 of 43 (82893 views)
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kH must be kept high above 4 at least. Baking soda will do the job.

See related post at http://www.cyberfins.com/...um3/HTML/000005.html

-oh-


Anonymous
Anonymous

Feb 15, 2000, 9:13 AM

Post #22 of 43 (82894 views)
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Hi OTH,

Isn't that will also drive the pH value higher? I mean if the pH is already high and you add baking soda, the pH will go higher.

Thanks


Oh Tian Huat
User

Feb 15, 2000, 9:48 AM

Post #23 of 43 (82894 views)
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Hi Alan,
The nice thing about baking soda is that you never be able to bring the pH above 8.4. Try a little experiment using small amount of water and lots of baking soda. Max. pH is 8.4. I never have a chance to try the experiment on high pH pond water. I think it should bring the pH down to 8.4. Try it and let me know.
-oh-


Anonymous
Anonymous

Feb 16, 2000, 5:16 AM

Post #24 of 43 (82893 views)
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Hi OTH,

I've tried adding 100g baking soda to my 600 gal pond. Initial reading is pH 9 and KH 3dH. After 30 minutes, pH maintain at 9 but KH increase to 4 dH. I would like drive up the hardness to 6 dH as you advised. Unfortunately, the pH refused to go down.

Anyway, I will try to add another 100g tomorrow.

Wish me luck

Thanks


cch
User

Feb 16, 2000, 5:42 AM

Post #25 of 43 (82893 views)
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Adding Baking Soda may not be able to push pH above 8.4 but this does not mean that it can bring pH down.

To bring pH down, you need acid. Baking Soda is unfortunately not an acid and therefore I do not think that it will bring the pH down by adding more.

Adding more Soda will increade KH and hence more buffer again pH change.



Anonymous
Anonymous

Feb 16, 2000, 5:49 AM

Post #26 of 43 (40530 views)
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Hi cch,

I think you are right. But I'm worried about adding acid. I think the reason why pH swing the first place was due to adding acid via pH down chemical. Because my pond hardness is very low, the acid reduced the KH further, causing the pH crash.(This is my humble opinion)

What I'm trying to do now is increase the KH by adding baking soda 100g daily. The pH might stay there at 9. One of my indicator is one 6 inches cheap local koi. So far, the koi seem untrouble but very shy. May be she is the only one in there. Tomorrow, I will buy one more cheap koi so that she will not be lonely.

Thanks


Oh Tian Huat
User

Feb 16, 2000, 6:18 AM

Post #27 of 43 (40530 views)
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Hi Alan,

High pH will not kill fish pH crash will and very quickly. Any pH down stuff are potential problem to pond. Acid is worst. pH 9 is OK. Worry about it only when it hit 10. Smile I'm sure that you had a pH crash.

Test your tap water for KH as well. Don't be surprised to see KH of 1 or below Wink If you buy the baking soda idea, go for it, pump it up to 10, it is good for your filter as well. I have done 12 before pH still 8+.

-oh-

(This post was edited by Oh Tian Huat on Mar 2, 2001, 10:00 AM)


Mark
Veteran

Feb 16, 2000, 6:59 AM

Post #28 of 43 (40530 views)
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No way for b/soda to work in new concrete pond... no way. Alkalinity is already 'sky' high in new concrete pond, adding b/soda worsen the situation.

Go back to basic.


rahim
User

Feb 16, 2000, 7:22 AM

Post #29 of 43 (40530 views)
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Hi,

I have new pond quite similar. So, I'm monitoring this topic as much as possible.

Wish me luck

Thanks


rahim
User

Feb 16, 2000, 7:27 AM

Post #30 of 43 (40530 views)
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Hi everyone and especially to Mr. Khoobg,

I've registered 2 minutes and 3 seconds ago. And I posted a reply. To my surprise, I am a senior member. I think some people in this forum might hate my luck.

Beginners luck ha.... wish it will happen to my koi keeping hobby.


cch
User

Feb 16, 2000, 6:39 PM

Post #31 of 43 (40531 views)
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Alan,

Your pond is about 3.2 tons and by adding 100g of soda, you pump up 1dH. If you happen to add Soda again, just keep us informed on the development.

Cheers


cch
User

Feb 16, 2000, 6:44 PM

Post #32 of 43 (40531 views)
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Alan,

cch again.

As your pond is just completed on Jan 28, 2000, it is basically still a brand new pond. Either you drain the water and refill again or just let it be, keep some low quality fish, start feeding, continue with some water change from time to time and your pH will lower as time go by.

Cheers


Anonymous
Anonymous

Feb 16, 2000, 8:20 PM

Post #33 of 43 (40532 views)
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If I no talk this, Mark is to kill me la.

Me pond 500gal built 16 Nov 1999 completed. Alakline pH always very high >10. Very no good and cannot put koi into pond. Ponder builder talk 1 month ready to put fish. Water very green. Put fish, fish died tomorrow monrning 1 month tomorrow. Talk to pond builder one time more and he talk wait 1 more month tomorrow. Now 2 months tomorrow. Before Christmas, Mark ask me to put 50 gal of vinegar and tomorrow wait 1 week. Very smelly and my lover complained "cannot ta'han". 5 days I wait and changesd all the water. Akal for 2days very good at 5.5 yellow color marking on tetra paper. Put 5 koi and is ok today. Added 4 big big one New Year 2000 and also ok tomorrow. pH no problem today. Always 7.0

Mark thank you and hope my talking help you.


Anonymous
Anonymous

Feb 16, 2000, 8:44 PM

Post #34 of 43 (40531 views)
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Hi everyone,

Today result: pH 9
KH 4

Add 100g Baking soda,
20 minutes after: pH 9
KH 5

Change 5% water,
30 minutes after: pH 9
KH 5

Tomorrow I will continue adding 100g of baking soda.

Wish me luck
Thanks


cch
User

Feb 16, 2000, 9:08 PM

Post #35 of 43 (40531 views)
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Hi Alan,

Thank you very much for posting of your pond test result.

By the way, just curious to know how many times you have totally drain the water since the pond was completed on Jan 28, 2000.



Anonymous
Anonymous

Feb 17, 2000, 1:33 AM

Post #36 of 43 (40531 views)
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Hi,

If I'm not mistaken, I've drained the pond around 5 times

Thanks


Bancherd
User

Feb 17, 2000, 7:44 AM

Post #37 of 43 (40531 views)
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Quote
Originally posted by Mark Richman:
No way for b/soda to work in new concrete pond... no way. Alkalinity is already 'sky' high in new concrete pond, adding b/soda worsen the situation.

Go back to basic.


Hi Mark:

I guess the keywords here are "new", and things being normal. If the pond is properly leached out, would it be possible for alkalinity to drop to dangerous level? My pond exemplifies this.

1) My pond was leached out using HCl, pumped out a few times.
2) My filter is undersized, it only has the settlement-chamber hooked up, all filter materials are in the settlement-chamber.
3) My pond is overstocked(sorry, newbie problem, could not resist)
4) My pond has severe green water problem(which would consumes carbonates during day time).

Comments?

Bancherd
P.S. Should I move this to a new topic so not to distract the main discussion?


cch
User

Feb 17, 2000, 8:03 AM

Post #38 of 43 (40531 views)
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Bancherd,

Anything that make with cement or concrete will basically require up to 28 days to cure to achieve maximum strength. Along the way, the process contribute to Alkalinity in the water.

In your case, if you are worry about pH crash, place small amount of coral or oyster shell in the filter and these will act as buffer against pH crash.


Doc Conrad
User


Feb 18, 2000, 1:41 PM

Post #39 of 43 (40531 views)
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A useful general guideline I developed for our local koi club is to add two pounds of baking soda per 500 gallons of water. I see only 100 gram being added to 600 gallons of water, so you need 10 times more baking soda to reach the total alkalinity levels we find optimum for keeping koi. As mentioned above, this should stabilize pH in the 8.0 to 8.5 range by providing the perfect chemical buffer for the pond.


Mark
Veteran

Feb 18, 2000, 8:32 PM

Post #40 of 43 (40531 views)
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In my opinion, now that you don't hv fish in the pond, I would rather concentrate on pH & alkalinity of the water.
Yes, b/soda helps to maintain a contant pH at around 8 ~ 9. But within 3 days, it will shoot up again if the basic is not right for a new pond.
Looking at the present situation, you can keep adding b/soda till the cow comes home but pH remains high.

Go back to basic. I believe Khoobg and Hans H. will be able to help us.


Hans Ham
Deleted

Feb 19, 2000, 1:33 AM

Post #41 of 43 (40528 views)
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Hello ALAN!

Alan mark is right,
My suggestion to you is.
1)Dump all your water.
2)Fill up.
3)Add Hydrocloric acid (37%).
4)Circulate the water about one week
5)Dump,&rifill,circulate,2days.
6)Dump again.let it dry for about two days.
7)fill up ,circulate one day,check PH.
8)If more as 8.8-9/ suggest rewaterproofet

I HAVE NEVER SEEN A POND WITH 10 PH,UND I BEEN BUILDING PONDS FOR SOME TIMES .

rdgs.Hans


Anonymous
Anonymous

Feb 21, 2000, 11:46 AM

Post #42 of 43 (40531 views)
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Hi Allan,

"The pool pH is about 7 also. I put in some sodium bicarbonate."

Under no circumstances should you use bicarbonate of soda to achieve a better pH .... it is deadly.

Use oyster shell which is widely used in Japan to maintain a good pH.


Anonymous
Anonymous

Feb 21, 2000, 5:45 PM

Post #43 of 43 (40533 views)
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Which is more dangerous, high or low pH? [In reply to] Can't Post

For the period of eight years of keeping koi, I have been using only some oyster shell and coral to buffer against pH swing. With that in my system (small amount), there weren't a single instance that I have to use Soda in the past eight years.

Cheers

 
 



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