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Nirite and Flashing problem

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colin00
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Jun 19, 2002, 10:53 AM

Post #1 of 35 (92224 views)
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Nirite and Flashing problem	Can't Post

Hello all, have been reading here for a while, but have not posted before. I am in the UK.

I am having a new pond built in the garden and it'll be very nice and about 5000 gallons.

However, that's not built yet, and the old pond had to go. So I got a 250g f/g holding tank with filter (brushes, flocor and matting, fed by Airmax 3500 and an air pump blowing 2 x 50mm air stones in the filter and one 12" aqaurium air block in the tank) set up in the garage. It's holding the one koi from my old pond we're keeping (the other fish were normal carp, goldfish, etc, and a neighbour wanted them) and we bought 6 small goldfish to get the filters matured.

We set up the tank a month ago. We used some Boi-start and a bit of ABA. We were adding more ABA about once a week.

We added 6 small goldfish after two weeks and all measurements were more or less perfect (PH 8, Am 0, Nit 0). We also added some more ABA at that time.

After a few days Amonia had risen slightly. Then that tailed off, and now for about a week we've noticed something other than 0 nitrite. It went up slightly. We now had to add the 9" Koi from our old pond. We had no choice, as the old one was being ripped apart.
But 2 days ago it was at 0.4mg on a Tetra kit. I have been carrying out 20% water changes nightly and using Interpet Water safe or water clear? The thing that protects against chlorine anyway. I've also added about 200g total of table salt (only salt with small anti-caking agent - checked that) as the books say this helps the fish cope with nitrite, and been adding more ABA.

Just before he went in we added a general Interpet anti-parasite treatment.

Last night I thought the colour on the test had reduced slightly, now just about 0.3mg.

The Koi has been scratching himself against the edge of the tank and the airstone, not constantly maybe, but quite a bit.

So, is it safe to keep him in there, or should we find somewhere else? Or will that just delay the process his extra waste is causing anyway?

Should this finally tail off over the next few days? The thing is we have another koi waiting to come home from Madidenhead at Hickstead and we don't want to bring that home while it's like this, but will adding him just make this all happen again?

Any advice gratefully received.

Kind regards, Col.

Cheers, Colin.

johnson lee
Veteran

Jun 19, 2002, 11:36 AM

Post #2 of 35 (92164 views)
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Re: [colin00] Nirite and Flashing problem [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Colin

Finally after browsing thru the forum you have started to write! Good for you! Wink

Since you are from UK, I have no doubt at all that Stuart would be replying to you in no time. He's a great chap to have around the forum, dispensing unlimited advice to all. Smile

The flashing of the koi is most likely due to the detected nitrites in your FG tank. This means that your filter system has yet to kick in and the good bugs have not been able to perform their task efficiently as yet. But you have done the right thing by changing water on a regular basis and also by adding salt.

However, you should not use table salt because it contains iodine ( in most cases anyway!) but instead you should use pond salt or sea salt. You should at this stage cut down on your feeding to just a little a day so that your filter will not be overloaded until it starts to mature.

Sorry, I am not an imperial measurement guy so 250gal should be around 1100 litres. To make a 0.1% salt solution, you will have to use 1kg of salt. If you like, you can increase the salinity to 0.3% on a gradual basis.

Continue to add the bacteria to aid in the filter maturation. Monitor the koi's behaviour and with a few more water changes and the salt and kicking-in of the filter, hopefully the flashing will be a thing of the past! Cool

If you can hold on to the arrival of the 2nd koi, it would be good until you get the filter running.

Are the rest of your fishes doing OK?

Good luck!

Johnson Smile

colin00
Novice

Jun 19, 2002, 11:40 AM

Post #3 of 35 (92162 views)
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Re: [johnson lee] Nirite and Flashing problem [In reply to]	Can't Post

Many thanks for answering.

3 things.

1. The salt I used contains no iodene. I checking on that. It's simpy saly plus an anti-caking agent that is not harmful.

2. The other fish all seem fine, but then goldfish are hardier than koi aren't they?

3. I got the conversion wrong and thought 100g was 1%! Doh! Will increase salt later!

They constantly want food, but are being fed a little once a day.

Col.

Cheers, Colin.

johnson lee
Veteran

Jun 19, 2002, 11:57 AM

Post #4 of 35 (92157 views)
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Re: [colin00] Nirite and Flashing problem [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Colin

Wow that was fast! Anyway, if the salt doesn't contain iodine, it should be OK.

Yes kois are hardier than gold fishes but I just wanted to check if your other fishes are OK too.

COntinue to check water quality regularly until filter improves/kicks-in.

Best of luck!

Johnson

colin00
Novice

Jun 19, 2002, 1:55 PM

Post #5 of 35 (92147 views)
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Re: [johnson lee] Nirite and Flashing problem [In reply to]	Can't Post

OK, my good lady is at home today and I got her to go and mix the rest of the 1.5KG bag of salt in some of the water from the tank and pore it into the tank.

She says that within 20 mins the koi was flashing less and seemed far happier. She said it was like putting lotion onto sunburn (a good facimilie I guess).

So hopefully that'll help the fish until the nitrite is removed by the bacteria.

So thanks for helping me with my poor maths!

Col.

Cheers, Colin.

johnson lee
Veteran

Jun 20, 2002, 5:49 AM

Post #6 of 35 (92130 views)
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Re: [colin00] Nirite and Flashing problem [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Colin

Good to hear that your fishes are feeling better after adding the salt! Smile

Anyway, it is good if you continue to test the water for ammonia and nitrites for a while until the filter has settled down.

Post the readings for us, OK?

Good luck, mate! Smile

colin00
Novice

Jun 20, 2002, 10:29 AM

Post #7 of 35 (92118 views)
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Re: [johnson lee] Nirite and Flashing problem [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks, and I will do.

When I got home last night it was....

PH=8

Am=0

Nitrite=0.3

So that's a slight improvement in the nitrite from it's worse point. Hopefully it will keep going down now. I did a further 20% water change.

Col.

Cheers, Colin.

johnson lee
Veteran

Jun 20, 2002, 10:47 AM

Post #8 of 35 (92117 views)
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Re: [colin00] Nirite and Flashing problem [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Colin

The nitrites is still a little high so you've got to keep a watch on that! Changing 20% water every alternate day would ensure that this is diluted.

If your fishes have stopped flashing, this is a good sign. The salt is a big help to help absorb some of the nitrites as well.

Best wishes!

Johnson Smile

Lynne USA
User

Jun 22, 2002, 7:09 PM

Post #9 of 35 (92096 views)
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Re: [johnson lee] Nirite and Flashing problem [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Colin,

Many times the anti cakeing agent is Yellow Prussiate of Soda and that can be harmful, it is also reffered to as YPS.

A cheaper way to purchase salt here in the U.S. is to buy Kosher salt at the grocery store or water softener salt but you would need to make sure it contains NO YPS.

Lynne

colin00
Novice

Jul 2, 2002, 10:20 AM

Post #10 of 35 (92063 views)
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Re: [Lynne USA] Nirite and Flashing problem [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi. No - the anti-caking stuff is not that and I took the packet to the local fish place and they said it was fine, although I've now got 'proper' salt from them that they had.

The readings for nitrite were up at about 0.4 again but the guys at the shop said, 'yes' change some water every other day, etc, but you need to let the filter mature, so don't go mad, the fish won't be hurt at that measure, just keep an eye on it.

I also got a new test kit from them to 'double-check' the tetra readings, and also because it includes nitrate, which I didn't have before, and obviously when this starts goign up, nitrite should be getting 'consumed' at a larger rate and should be coming down. So a few days later and the readings are this (on Sunday - will check again tonight)....

PH = 8

Am = 0

Nitrite = 0.3

Nitrate = 40

All the goldfish are fine and constantly hungry (I'll still only feeding a little), but Mutley (the koi) is looking better. He will come up to be tickled and especially to be fed. He prefers taking pellets from the finger to getting them himself! And he's flashing less. I think this is partly because of the salt, and partly because he's now used to the holding tank, etc.

I will continue to monitor and see how it goes.

We did pay for a tancho at a local koi place, but it died there. So I have credit to use for new fish when I want them, but am not thinking about that soon. Am also upset about the tancho dying as it was a nice fish. But then I guess it's better it happened there and not after I'd taken it away. The shop did all sorts of tests but could never track down the reason. Shame.

Cheers, Col.

Cheers, Colin.

johnson lee
Veteran

Jul 3, 2002, 6:07 AM

Post #11 of 35 (92044 views)
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Re: [colin00] Nirite and Flashing problem [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Colin

Good to hear that everything is under control and the nitrite is improving as well! Smile

I am glad to know that your koi is also improving and is flashing less now. Smile

Yes, your dealer is right, take it easy, continue to monitor the nitrites and check on the fish. Once your filter settles down, your nitrite level will start to drop. Continue to change 20% water once every 2-3 days to ensure that the nitrites are diluted and won't harm your koi in the long run.

All the best!

Johnson Cool

colin00
Novice

Jul 3, 2002, 9:52 AM

Post #12 of 35 (92037 views)
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Re: [johnson lee] Nirite and Flashing problem [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thnaks for the reply.

Well last night we had some good news.

Tested again, PH still 8, Amonia still 0, nitrates had gone down slightly to 30 (which I don't really understand) but the important bit is that nitrites have finally gone down. On the new kit it was about 0.2-0.25. I wondered about the new test kit and double-checked with the tetra one I was using before. Yes, it''s certainly gone down.

So hopefully things are looking up (or down rather!)

Many thanks, Col.

Cheers, Colin.

johnson lee
Veteran

Jul 3, 2002, 11:11 AM

Post #13 of 35 (92032 views)
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Re: [colin00] Nirite and Flashing problem [In reply to]	Can't Post

Good for you, Colin! Smile

I'm pretty sure your kois are feeling much happier now and once the nitrites start to register 0, they'll be on seventh heaven! Cool

Best rgds

Johnson Smile

Lynne USA
User

Jul 3, 2002, 6:31 PM

Post #14 of 35 (92020 views)
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Re: [johnson lee] Nirite and Flashing problem [In reply to]	Can't Post

HiColin,

I'm glad to hear you're getting the nitrites under control. I still think that if your buying your salt at a pet shop, your probably paying too much. Smile

Are there any koi dealers in your area? Having managed a pet shop for the better part of my life, I have found that it is better to buy from a koi dealer. Lynne

andyng_sy
Novice

Jul 4, 2002, 6:28 AM

Post #15 of 35 (92009 views)
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Re: [johnson lee] Nirite and Flashing problem [In reply to]	Can't Post

Would like to know what brand is good and available over here in Malaysia for testing.

Andy Ng.

colin00
Novice

Jul 4, 2002, 10:11 AM

Post #16 of 35 (92000 views)
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Re: [Lynne USA] Nirite and Flashing problem [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sorry for any misunderstanding but it's from a fish place. They have tropicals, etc, too, but are mainly a koi shop (many good examples from tiddlers up to some worth thousands of pounds).

Although they said the supermarket stuff I was using was fine because the anti-caking agent was sodium-somethingwithloadsandloadsoflettersicannotrememberthenameofrightnow rather than anything harmful I thought it better to use something from a fish place.

So no water change for 3 days now (will do a 20% tonight) and Mutley the koi seems very happy and is up at the surface demanding to be fed whenever we go into the garage (when the holding tank is). The goldfish always seemed happy and hungry!

The pond in the garden is coming on - bottom drains in and concrete base and half the concrete blocks for the sides are in and the space for the filter is being dug out and the other half of the garage has filters and vortexes and pumps, etc, in it (pictures at www.harrisc.demon.co.uk if anyone cares). So hopefully in the next couple of months he and some new friends will be happily swimming in their new 5000g (about 23-25 metric tonnes?) pond. It's been good weather-wise for a while so work was going well, but with the start of Wimbledon tennis it's started raining in the UK (this is an annual thing, tennis starts, rain starts) but today's nice, so hopefully things will start picking up again.

Cheers, Col.

Cheers, Colin.

Lynne USA
User

Jul 4, 2002, 10:11 PM

Post #17 of 35 (91986 views)
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Re: [colin00] Nirite and Flashing problem [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Colin, loved your website. You have made allot of progress on your pond, I can't wait to see the pictures when its done.

colin00
Novice

Jul 5, 2002, 12:45 AM

Post #18 of 35 (91984 views)
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Re: [Lynne USA] Nirite and Flashing problem [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks. Even more done today! A load of equipment arrived today and when I cam home I was opening UVs and heaters and skimmers, etc! Smile

Even better news is that I tested again today and the nitrite is now down again. I did a 20% change and will leave things now until Sunday.

Today's results....

PH=8

Amonia=0

Nitrite=0.1

Nitrate=30

Col.

Cheers, Colin.

Arcen
User

Jul 5, 2002, 8:24 PM

Post #19 of 35 (91969 views)
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Re: [colin00] Nirite and Flashing problem [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi COLIN, I am also from the UK! My name is also Colin.You seem to not have filled in your user profile.Where abouts in UK are you from? I'm from HASTINGS,East Sussex.CHEERS.COLIN....... Smile

johnson lee
Veteran

Jul 5, 2002, 9:05 PM

Post #20 of 35 (91967 views)
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Re: [Arcen] Nirite and Flashing problem [In reply to]	Can't Post

Colin meets Colin! We have a few Johns on this forum as well! Wink

Anyway, Colin, good to hear that your nitrites reading is improving.

Johnson

colin00
Novice

Jul 8, 2002, 10:19 AM

Post #21 of 35 (91943 views)
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Re: [Arcen] Nirite and Flashing problem [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sorry - I'll edit the profile. I'm in Lindfield West Sussex!

Col.

Cheers, Colin.

colin00
Novice

Jul 8, 2002, 10:24 AM

Post #22 of 35 (91942 views)
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Re: [johnson lee] Nirite and Flashing problem [In reply to]	Can't Post

The nitrites had all but disapeared. However, I'm worried about something. I have a couple of fish at koi places ready to come home when all's well, but I took some back from a neighbour over the weekened and amonia and nitrite both went up (0.2 ansd 0.4 respectively). I did a water change and will monitor closly, but will thsi happen every time, and will it only last a short time now the filter is working much better?

Thanks, Col.

Cheers, Colin.

SMW1
Veteran

Jul 8, 2002, 5:09 PM

Post #23 of 35 (91929 views)
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Re: [colin00] Nirite and Flashing problem [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Colin ,

Sorry I haven't replied sooner. I have been away for a while.

to be perfectly honest with you. A 250g tank should only contain a very small number of koi. I have read throgh this post form the start and it seems as though your filter although robably not yet fully matured is breeding nitrobactor and co (the good guys) quite efficiently now.

The fact that the ammonia level was 0 tells me that the filter is working. However the size of the filter and the tank that the goldfish and koi are kept in my not be able to cope with adding more koi so soon. I know its hard but it would be better to wait until your pond is ready until you buy more koi. Or the other option is to swap 2 goldfish for 1 koi. If I have read this post correctly you have 9 goldfish and 1 koi (mutly, does he do the same laugh ? Smile

). To keep the levels or Nitrite down you will need to feed only once a day and feed a small quantities.

However I would reccomend that you wait. 250g of tank is not reall idea for koi and you could be tempting fate.

How long until your pond is complete ?.

Stuart

colin00
Novice

Jul 8, 2002, 5:23 PM

Post #24 of 35 (91927 views)
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Re: [SMW1] Nirite and Flashing problem [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Stuart. We have 6 2" goldfish. We had 1 8-9" koi (Mutley, no the to laugh, but he's a bit of a mongrel!) Smile

We also now have another 3 2-3" koi in there. I think adding any more would be a mistake. We have 2 7-8" koi waiting to come home from a local stockist (it was one - but they got another in and we've paid for that now too).

The current plan is......

When pond finished (about two weeks - would have been sooner but weather is slowing things down) Will add some media from FB tank and some bio-start stuff. Then after a few days take the 6 goldfish and add them to the pond. After a few weeks (however long it takes) when the filters are working ok and readings are good will add small koi. When settled down again - add Mutley. At that point move goldfish back to fg tank and then get new fish from stockist and keep them in fg tank for month to make sure they're okay.

The stockist is not actually saying, you must take these now, but he wants us to take them asap, althoguh I've now offered him money to feed them which helped a bit.

Does that sound okay?

I'm just worried that things went haywire as soon as these new fish were added. And wondered is filter wasn't as good as I thought, but it's been going for 45 days and as you say amonia was zero and nitrite had come down so the 2 main parts of the cycle were working and so a healthy crop of bacteria must have been in place. yes?

Many thanks, Col.

Cheers, Colin.

SMW1
Veteran

Jul 8, 2002, 6:17 PM

Post #25 of 35 (91923 views)
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Re: [colin00] Nirite and Flashing problem [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yu are correct in saying that the bacteria in the filte ris working. I'm just worried that you will over corwd this 250g tank with too many fish.

You also also correct about how to introduce the fish to your new pond. However I would fill and drain the pond once beofre any fish are introduced then I would monitor the water parameters very closly for he next two weeks. Its a shame I do not live close to you otherwise I would look after the koi for you.

Is sounds like you have everything under control.

Stuart

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