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Vortex Units - Urgent!

 




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chlou
Novice

Aug 9, 2000, 7:41 AM

Post #1 of 37 (83001 views)
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Vortex Units - Urgent! Can't Post

Dear Koi Lovers,

I am planning to build a 22 tons (5000 Imp Gallons) pond. Pond shape is figure of 8, inground, measuring approx 20'x9'x4.5' with a pot fountain and shallow waterfall pond attached to a corner.

I am thinking of using the 4 x40" vortex units as described in Koi Kichi for my filtration system. Combined with a trickle tower, measuring 4' tall, diameter of 12" with 2' of Bioball.

My pond contractor is very concerned about the efficiency of this filtration system. He told me he has never seen something like that before. At leat in Johor Bahru. The system he advocated is a multichamber upflow filtration system.

I hope all you guys could enlighten me on the followings:

1. Is the 4 vortex units system, 1 prime vortex for mechanical and 3 for biological, adequate for our local conditions? Anyone with personal experience on this?

2. What is the stocking rate for this filtration system?

3. What is the reason for the 'non-popular' use of this system by our local koi keepers?
Honestly I am quite convinced that this system should work and is a long term design. I think Roddy Conrad had shared on this in other thread of this forum.

4. Type of pumps to use with this system in order to get a flow rate of 1800 to 2000 gallon per hour?
Considering using 3 Omni-U (Japan). One for waterfall/fountain and 2 others for the return water (timer-controlled, to work alternately for longer service life). BTW the Omni-U max capacity is 58 USG/min. Any comments on this?

Thank you and best regards.

CH Lou
Johor Bahru


Khoobg
Webmaster


Aug 9, 2000, 8:20 AM

Post #2 of 37 (82947 views)
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My opinion are :-

1) Calculate to check if the surface area of the Vortex is 30% of the pond surface. Having 30% or more will be ideal but it may still work if it is slightly less than 30%. In the event that the filter capacity is found to insufficient later, add more trickle tower to improve filtering capacity further.

2) Read this thread for guidance on stocking level http://www.koi.com.my/...um3/HTML/000020.html

3) Vortex is definitely a well proven system. The reason that it not popular here is it is hard to find ready made vortex locally. Given the choice, pond contractor will choose to build rectangular system that is much easier to build than vortex (with cone).

4) OMNI pump is very economical to operate and it is durable. Its 150 watt rating is very attractive. Use 3 pump should be sufficient for a start.



Werner
User

Aug 9, 2000, 9:11 AM

Post #3 of 37 (82945 views)
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chlou-

You might want to post your question directly to waddy on the NI board since he invented the system. www.koimag.com

------------------
Pond-On
www.wernersponds.com
Holiday, FL USA


Ben
User

Aug 10, 2000, 4:36 PM

Post #4 of 37 (82945 views)
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Chlou,

Are you buying ready made vortex ? At what price ? or you are going to construct them ?


chlou
Novice

Aug 11, 2000, 7:52 AM

Post #5 of 37 (82945 views)
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Quote
Originally posted by Ben:
Chlou,

Are you buying ready made vortex ? At what price ? or you are going to construct them ?


My pond contractor will build the vortex units according to dimensions taken from Koi Kichi. If the system works, he will mass produce the Vortex Units for the Malaysian market.

Lou



Ben
User

Aug 11, 2000, 8:02 AM

Post #6 of 37 (82945 views)
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Wow, that is a pcs of good news. If we can get ready made vortex at affordable cost, life will be easier.

My question is what if the vortex does not works well. Are you going to provide some contigency by having extra piping works so that additional rectangular filter can be built if vortex does not perform to your satisfaction ?


chlou
Novice

Aug 11, 2000, 9:03 AM

Post #7 of 37 (82945 views)
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Some figures to ponder on:
Surface area of a 40" vortex = 8.7 sq ft
4 units give a total of 34.8 sq ft
This means the vortex units have 19% of pond surface area.

For the trickle tower:
Assuming 1 cuft of bioballs gives 100 sq ft of surfaces for bacterial colonization, then 2 cu ft = 200 cu ft of useful surfaces

Therefore the filter system consisting of 4 vortex units + 1 trickle tower = 234.8 sq ft = 130% of pond surface area. That's impressive guys!

In Koi Kichi, Peter Waddington claims that vortex unit by far is the most efficient mechanical filtration available.

If the above calculation is logical and correct, then the above system should be an efficient long term design with minimal hassle in the unkeep.So why bother to play with those inefficient multichamber upflow type of filter, settlement tank etc.Any comments from the experts?

Flow Rate:
Max capacity of Omni-U is 2897 Imp Gallon/Hr. Assuming the pump only works on 60% capacity, then flow rate should work out to be approx 1738 Gal/Hr. This is close to the prescribed flow rate of 1800-2000 gal/hr
So my deduction is to run only one pump at a time by a timer. Does this make sense?

I really hope the experts out there could enlighten me on the above. I'm building my pond next week. So really need some assurance that the system would work.

Thanks and best regards.

(This post was edited by chlou on Nov 8, 2000, 9:00 AM)


Ben
User

Aug 11, 2000, 5:49 PM

Post #8 of 37 (82945 views)
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With 19% surface area provided by the Vortex alone, you are not too far away. Adding another trickle filter will likely to be sufficient.

You can run initially with this type of set up and check water parameters to confirm the ability of your filter to cope with the koi quantity you keep and your feeding pattern. You can always add more trickle if you find that the present set up is unable to offer sufficient treatment capacity.

As for the pump, the pumping rate will depend very much on your piping works. More twist and turn will slow down your pumping rate. Since you will also be introducing a trickle which may be as tall as 5 ft, then you need to take the pumping head into consideration. The bigger is the pumping head the slower is the pumping rate. Running only one pump for your 22 tons pump is not sufficient. I would say you will need at least two.

Since you are building your pond now, do not forget the aeration points for your bio filter.


chlou
Novice

Aug 11, 2000, 7:21 PM

Post #9 of 37 (82945 views)
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Thanks Ben.
Khoo shared the same view too.
What's the feasibility of running 2 pumps alternately?
Thinking of 2 return water pipe at 10" below water level, with venturi.
The trickle tower will be fed by a line tee off from one of the return water line. Fountain pond to be powered by a separate pump.
Rgds.
Lou


chlou
Novice

Aug 11, 2000, 7:25 PM

Post #10 of 37 (82945 views)
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Could someone please give me the e-mail address of Peter Waddington. Couldn't log onto his Infiltration website.

Thannks

Rgds.
Lou




dttk
Veteran

Aug 11, 2000, 9:51 PM

Post #11 of 37 (82945 views)
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Hi everyone, chlou quoted "In Koi Kichi, Peter Waddington claims that vortex unit by far is the most efficient mechanical filtration available.
If the above calculation is logical and correct, then the above system should be an efficient long term design with minimal hassle in the unkeep.So why bother to play with those inefficient multichamber upflow type of filter, settlement tank etc." Peter's book was published in 1995. We cannot be sure that what he claims at that time still holds weight. If it still does, then I'm sure that many of the professional pond builders would have recommended it even if it was imported. The construction of the so-called "inefficient multichamber upflow type of filter..." would be outdated. This is my personal view only. I admire chlou's enthusiam in constructing an efficient and hazzle-free filter system for his pond.Hope that chlou and his vortex builder friend will be successful in their venture and maybe one day we can do away with our submersible multichamber filter and just have a multi-vortex system with trickle filter system. Have a nice day.


mark gardner
Novice

Aug 12, 2000, 1:07 AM

Post #12 of 37 (82945 views)
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Hi all, greetings from England

I personally think that this system is a very good idea.

I too am building a 5000 gal pond and am proposing to use a similar system.

I am intending to have 2 36" vortexes, the second of which will have brushes in the top. From here water will be pumped to a container (not sure what yet) containing 1cu metre of plastic filter media with a surface area of 210sq metres. I am confident that this will provide me with a system that will efficently remove solids and then provide effective biological fitration.

Various articles I have read claim trickle filters to be 10 times more efficient than wet filters.

Great discussion group guys.

Mark


chlou
Novice

Aug 12, 2000, 7:23 AM

Post #13 of 37 (82945 views)
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Thanks for all the replies so far.

Questions reg Flow Rate & Return Water to Pond

1.How to actually determine the flow rate of the system?

2. Is the flow rate of 1800-2000 prescribed by Peter Wddington based on scientific research or just personal feelings and observation?

3. How critical is the flow rate for efficient working of the vortex? Margin of error before the system become useless?

4. Is placing 2 return pipes at the middle of '8', in opposite directions, enough to generate good current in the pond?

5. The ideal number of overflow skimmers?

Happy surfing and have a nice day.



(This post was edited by chlou on Nov 8, 2000, 9:00 AM)


chlou
Novice

Aug 12, 2000, 7:31 AM

Post #14 of 37 (82945 views)
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Quote
Originally posted by mark gardner:

"I am intending to have 2 36" vortexes, the second of which will have brushes in the top"

Dear Mark,
I am curious about having brushes in the 2nd vortex. Is it for better mechanical filtration?

I thought its more logical to place the brushes in the first vortex if your want them to help trapping the solid wastes. Probably only the finer particles go into the 2nd vortex. So the brushes might not be useful there??


Ben
User

Aug 12, 2000, 9:54 AM

Post #15 of 37 (82945 views)
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CHLou

I would assume that you will be placing your pump after your vortex. In such case, don't you think that to use only one unit of more powerful centrifugal pressure pump will be easier.


chlou
Novice

Aug 12, 2000, 6:12 PM

Post #16 of 37 (82945 views)
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There is a pump chamber after the 4 vortex units. This is where the pumps, UVLights (if installed) are placed.

The pipeworks for return water to pond and water to trickle tower will be placed at the pump chamber.

All the filter units, pump chamber, standpipe chamber and sump area will be placed in a brickwalled housing with timber cover.

Have a nice day. Any better ideas?


chlou
Novice

Aug 13, 2000, 5:38 AM

Post #17 of 37 (82945 views)
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Quote
Originally posted by Ben:
CHLou

I would assume that you will be placing your pump after your vortex. In such case, don't you think that to use only one unit of more powerful centrifugal pressure pump will be easier.


Hi Ben,
I have limited experience with pumps. Right now my pond only holds 200 gal of water and only use 2 small pumps. One for pumping water to the filter chamber (down-up-down type)and the other to aerate (venturi) and create current in the pond.

Omni-U pump seems to be the standard pump used by most JB pond builder.

What is the brand of the pump that you have in mind? What is the cost of the pump and its running cost?
Where can I buy it?

Thanks and Have a Nice Day!



Ben
User

Aug 13, 2000, 5:41 AM

Post #18 of 37 (82945 views)
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Chlou,

OMNI pump of 150watt rating works just fine and economical. Centrifugal pump is just a suggestion only.


chlou
Novice

Aug 13, 2000, 5:48 AM

Post #19 of 37 (82945 views)
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Quote
Originally posted by Ben:
CHLou

I would assume that you will be placing your pump after your vortex. In such case, don't you think that to use only one unit of more powerful centrifugal pressure pump will be easier.


Hi Ben,
I have limited experience with pumps. Right now my pond only holds 200 gal of water and only use 2 small pumps (Rena & Powerhead). One for pumping water to the filter chamber (down-up-down type)and the other to aerate (venturi) and create current in the pond.

Omni-U pump seems to be the standard pump used by most JB pond builder.

What is the brand of the pump that you have in mind? What is the cost of the pump and its running cost?
Where can I buy it?

Thanks and Have a Nice Day!



chlou
Novice

Aug 13, 2000, 5:51 AM

Post #20 of 37 (82945 views)
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Quote
Originally posted by Ben:

Chlou,

OMNI pump of 150watt rating works just fine and economical. Centrifugal pump is just a suggestion only.


Thank you.



Ben
User

Aug 13, 2000, 8:49 PM

Post #21 of 37 (82945 views)
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Hi mark Gardner,

How much you pay for 36" vortex in UK ? What are the general of vortex on sale in UK ?


mark gardner
Novice

Aug 15, 2000, 1:09 AM

Post #22 of 37 (82945 views)
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Hi all

Sorry for the delay in posting a response to those that asked questions.

I am using brushes in the second vortex as a final barrier to stop any floating particles that may have escaped the first one reaching the trickle tower. I could use brushes in the first vortex however would prefer to leave it empty to in case they disrupt the flow.

I have sourced some freestanding glassfibre vortex units for 100 each. The are 36" in diameter and 36" high. They have 4" entry and exit pipework and a 2" slide valve drain.

Mark


Webmaster
New User

Aug 16, 2000, 9:44 AM

Post #23 of 37 (82945 views)
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CHLOU,

Reply from Mr. Peter Waddington on your Qs as follow :-


Quote
I wish to reply to your member regarding advice on his proposed pond system
after his email request. Could you please pass this on to him.


The vortex system as described in Koi Kichi (even though I invented it) is
still by far the most efficient system to opt for today for reasons given in
the book.
The system can easily be copied from the book as all dimensions are given.
30" dia. units are useless unless you are filtering say 1,000 gallons at a
flow rate of 300gph.
Do NOT use slide valves on the drains - do NOT have drains coming out of
sides.
A flow rate for your pond should be around 1,750 gph.
Stocking rate depends on quality of stocks - general grade many, high class
few - if you wish to realise maximum potential!
I use this system on my own pond - you can check it out on koi-kichi.co.uk
for finer details.
Hope this helps, Peter Waddington.



chlou
Novice

Aug 17, 2000, 6:48 AM

Post #24 of 37 (82945 views)
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Thank you so much Peter for the reply. Thanks to Mr Khoo for posting the message.

Now I can proceed with my plan with confidence. Those of you who would like to see the vortex in action may check up the 'POND' at Infiltration website (http://www.koi-kichi.co.uk/). Worth a visit.... VERY IMPRESSIVE!

Just one more thing i.e. the pump. Peter never heard of Omni-U pump before. Could our local experienced koi keeper enlighten me more on this. Thanks.

(This post was edited by chlou on Apr 8, 2001, 9:00 AM)


chlou
Novice

Sep 17, 2000, 7:15 AM

Post #25 of 37 (82945 views)
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Hi fellow forum members,
We have just finished building the pond and the filter system consists of 4 vortexes, 1 transfer chamber with stand pipes and a pump chamber. 2 trickle towers too.
Hope the system will work and will keep you guys informed of the outcome.
Cheers.

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