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HWONG
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Mar 11, 2002, 6:19 AM

Post #1 of 35 (108018 views)
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Ammonia-Zeolite-UV	Can't Post

Need advice on 2 issues from our Gurus

a) Ammonia

It is known that Zeolite absorbs ammonia. We are also advised to maintain a certain salt level to kill germs and the like. It is also true that Zeolite will discharge the ammonia when you soak them in a salt solution.Can the 2 routine co-exist and if so what are the safeties to be aware of.

Does UV light have any effect on Ammonia?

b) Cleaning filter mats, brushes.

I am planning to clean the filters by removing the mats, give them a good shake and spray them with pond water. The Good Bacterias are attached to the filetr material but we also need to clean them to rid of nasties. How can we safely remove the harmful debries without shaking off the good bacterias as well.

Thks n Rgds.

Mark
Veteran

Apr 10, 2002, 9:00 AM

Post #2 of 35 (107911 views)
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Re: [HWONG] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV [In reply to]	Can't Post

Let me try to answer your queries.

Ammonia and Zeolite - if in any instance zeolite is used, you need at least 10% of salt to discharge the ammonia from it. A small amount of salt in the pond is not used to rid bad bugs. Instead, it is used to help the fish in their respiratory intake of water. In my personal opinion, I would recommend that zeolite be moved out of the filter box once the filter system matured.
UV Light has no impact on ammonia registration. A "powerful" one could help to eliminate bad bugs instead.
Clearing and washing the filter media - I recommend that you rinse them in the filter box. They need not be absolutely clean - without stain. What you could do after putting them back to the filter system is to drain off the 1st few litres of water. Side note - if you have to wash the filter box often, then my conclusion is either you are over feeding the fish or the system is under sized.

Hope these info. help.

HWONG
Veteran

Apr 10, 2002, 6:22 PM

Post #3 of 35 (107898 views)
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Re: [Mark] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks Mark for your reply. I had clean out my filter chamber by draining out the water and spraying the mats with pond water. There was a lot of dirt in there. I assume they are the dead algae from the UV treament. This is the first time I am doing it. Right after I did that, I got a viral infection that got me bed ridden for a few days and couldnt eat until today. But my kois are in ship shape. I also observe that the koi shit seems to be floating the last couple of days.

RGds.

doitsu
Novice

Apr 10, 2002, 8:40 PM

Post #4 of 35 (107895 views)
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Re: [Mark] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Mark,

I've been hearing a little about Zeolite. Since my pond is new, my ammonia reading is constantly on the high side. So, perhaps from the little that I've heard, Zeolite can help.

1. Is Zeolite easily attainable from any koi dealer?
2. Do you recommend its usage?
3. Can you please explain more about zeolite?

Thanks a lot

Mark
Veteran

Apr 11, 2002, 5:20 AM

Post #5 of 35 (107885 views)
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Re: [doitsu] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV [In reply to]	Can't Post

I would not recommend it for long term usage. In short, if you need to use this, it is either your filter system is undersized or your pond is overcrowded with fish.

If the filter system is efficiently set up, you really don't need any "helpers" to keep the ammonia and nitrites under control. At most you only need to buffer the pH(@7~8) with either oyster shells or cockels shells. I would recommend the use of zeolite only when the filter system is new. A new filter system should 'kick in' by the the 4th week and matured by the 8th. By this time, you should move out the zeolite and/or any other form of "helpers" found in the filter system.

Zeolite comes in the form of light brown chippings of various sizes, and is made of hydrated silicates of calcium and aluminium. When used in the fish hobby, it removes the ammoinia from the water which in turn, depletes nitrites.

I don't have 'lobang' for the this, but you could check them out from either Nippon, Mainland or Petsmart in Singapore. Alternatively, send Eric Lim (SKC member) an email and I am sure he will be glad to tell you where to get them at real cheap price.

In conclusion, remember that any amount of registration of ammonia is bad for fish. As the saying goes, if you manage the water well, the water will keep your fish healthy and well.

doitsu
Novice

Apr 11, 2002, 12:04 PM

Post #6 of 35 (107876 views)
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Re: [Mark] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the info and I'm residing in Malaysia by the way. Errr., I also have a ph at 9 and I tried bringing it down with ketapang leaves but to no avail. You mean, I just get oyster shells and the ph will automatically come down to 7-8 and stay there??? If so, what's the quantity of shells I need for a 1500 gallon pond?

Thanks.

Mark
Veteran

Apr 11, 2002, 12:35 PM

Post #7 of 35 (107875 views)
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Re: [doitsu] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ketapang leaves are common introduced to Arowana tank and may not help much in your case. If the pH is consistently this high, the fish will produce excess slime, and will gasp at the surface. Any amount of ammonia registration will easily kill the fish outright. How old is your pond, and it is made of concrete?

Please note that oyster shells and/or cockels shells will not bring down the pH. Coral chips don't either.

doitsu
Novice

Apr 11, 2002, 6:24 PM

Post #8 of 35 (107859 views)
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Re: [Mark] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV [In reply to]	Can't Post

My pond is nearly 1 month old and yes it's made of concrete. So what do you suggest I do???
And what does oyster shells do???

Mark
Veteran

Apr 12, 2002, 5:07 AM

Post #9 of 35 (107849 views)
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Re: [doitsu] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV [In reply to]	Can't Post

As a norm, a month's old concerete pond is not be ready to take in fish.

Later part of the hobby, you may come across situation whereby the pH in the water will drop to a level(<6.5) that becomes dangerious to the fish. Hobbyists are advised to buffer the pH in their pond using oyster shells or others, and not wait for that situation to happen.

dttk
Veteran

Apr 12, 2002, 6:13 AM

Post #10 of 35 (107845 views)
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Re: [doitsu] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi doitsu, I have a suggestion to bring down your pH from 9. Most ponders will put raw pineapple "skin/peelings" into the pond and soak for a week or so before they add fish into a new concrete pond. This is done to bring down the pH. In your case, try to house the koi temporarily in another tank. Do clean the outside of the pineapple before slicing off the skin. Thickness of skin should be reasonable, i.e not too thin. Distribute them evenly throughout the pond and soak for a few days. Test the pH daily. Make sure they don't clog up your bottom drain. This is just a suggestion. If it works, don't forget to "belanja" us some pineapple tarts... Laugh

.
Always friendly :)

Mark
Veteran

Apr 12, 2002, 7:37 AM

Post #11 of 35 (107843 views)
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Re: [dttk] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV [In reply to]	Can't Post

That's a good suggestion. To check if your pond is reacting to the skin of the friut, your pH should consistently measured 6 and below for at least 14 days. If successful, completely drain out the water and give the concrete surface a good scrub before adding new water.

Good luck.

Mark
Veteran

Apr 12, 2002, 7:40 AM

Post #12 of 35 (107840 views)
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Re: [Mark] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV [In reply to]	Can't Post

Just one more note.

Alternative to using the skin of pineapples, you may want to use hydrochloric acid to leach your pond.

Good luck.

SMW1
Veteran

Apr 12, 2002, 11:11 AM

Post #13 of 35 (107834 views)
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Re: [Mark] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Guys, I am in the process of building a 25,000 gal pond. It won't be ready until late this year. If I apply G4 to the pond after the blocks have been render, will I still need to worry about fruit skins and lime ?

johnson lee
Veteran

Apr 12, 2002, 12:26 PM

Post #14 of 35 (107828 views)
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Re: [Mark] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi

Hope I am not interfering in this discussion. In my opinion, using hydrochloric acid or pineapple skin to lower the pH of a pond is not very good. I would not want to put acid into my pond because it will also affect the KH. The only exception is if it is a new pond and you don't intend to put fishes in until it is fully bleached. as for pineapple skin, if you have a small pond, it may work but for a large one, you may need loads of pineapple skins! Wink

My recommendation would be to use sodium bicarbonate (SD) at 100g/1000 litres. Surprisingly, SD can be used to increase or decrease pH. If your pH is 6 and if you add the right amount, it will go up to 8.4. If your pH is 9 and you add SD, it will bring it down to 8.4. Amazing isn't it? Sly

It works both ways.

I hope this info helps.

Rgds

Johnson Smile

Mark
Veteran

Apr 13, 2002, 4:18 AM

Post #15 of 35 (107812 views)
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Re: [SMW1] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV [In reply to]	Can't Post

If G4 is the final coat, you properly don't need to leach the pond but best to test it out with pH test kit.

dttk
Veteran

Apr 13, 2002, 5:12 AM

Post #16 of 35 (107809 views)
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Re: [johnson lee] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Johnson, yes you're right... Sly

. I've heard that the maximum pH rise no matter how much sodium bicarb you add to a pond is 8.4 . What if you want to bring it down to below 8, say 7.6? I personally prefer a pH less than 8. Smile

.
Always friendly :)

Mark
Veteran

Apr 15, 2002, 3:57 AM

Post #17 of 35 (107795 views)
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Re: [johnson lee] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV [In reply to]	Can't Post

Irregardless of a big or small pond, using Sodium Bicarbonate to leach a new pond is incorrect. Further, it can me very expensive and not achieving the end result speedily. I would recommend the use of baking soda in situation whereby there is a pH crash and the fish are affected by the pH(usually low).

doitsu
Novice

Apr 15, 2002, 4:51 AM

Post #18 of 35 (107791 views)
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Re: [Mark] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV [In reply to]	Can't Post

Dear JOHNSON, MARK & and DTTK,

Wow friends, it's been a real headache reading all your comments.
I did use fosforic acid and pineapples to soak the pond for a week and then wash the whole pond and fill it up with water.
However, until today the ph is constantly at 9.
I thought the comment about the sodium bicarbonate thing is real great until Mark's comment of course (which I really appreciate). Another question, if I use the sodium bicarbonate thing, can I insert it with the fish in the pond???

Anyway, guys, so my situation is this: How can I lower down my ph without transferring my fish?; because all of them looks so happy and healthy already (for a month now) and I don't want to add additional stress.
What I'm planning to do is wait for the best answer and in the meantime try to get some oyster shells to place in a filter chamber.
Thanks for your help guys. I really do appreciate your thoughts. Cheerio!

dttk
Veteran

Apr 15, 2002, 4:59 AM

Post #19 of 35 (107791 views)
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Re: [Mark] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV [In reply to]	Can't Post

That's precisely what I meant. There is no way baking soda will bring pH down from 8.4 to lower... Crazy

.....and most of us would not want our water to be too hard or pH to be above 8 if possible.... Unimpressed

. I agree with you Mark Smile

. So Johnson, no hard feelings... Frown

!
Always friendly :)

dttk
Veteran

Apr 15, 2002, 5:12 AM

Post #20 of 35 (107790 views)
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Re: [doitsu] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi doitsu, if you want to keep things as they are and so long as the koi are happy, I suppose you could just wait. As the pond matures, pH will drop slightly. However make sure that ammonia is never detected in your water as it is more toxic in high pH conditions. Smile

Always friendly :)

koiboy01
Novice

Apr 15, 2002, 11:06 PM

Post #21 of 35 (107774 views)
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Re: [dttk] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV [In reply to]	Can't Post

HI,

Another way to leach the lime out of a new concrete pond is to scrub it out with a solution of ACETIC ACID which is VINEGAR in water a couple of times, then empty and fill with clean water ,leave for a day then empty and fill again, and do your water checks and everything should be allright to start adding your koi, but if you are not at all sure add a tester fish and see how it gets on .Thats what I do when I build a concrete pond ,but I also put a waterproof agent in the cement when building the pond and never have any problems.

Koiboy01 Smile

doitsu
Novice

Apr 18, 2002, 11:13 AM

Post #22 of 35 (107747 views)
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Re: [dttk] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi dttk,

Yeah, I guess that's what I'm going to do and thanks. I do plan to use oyster shells, however, I'm not to certain what it does. What if my ph is 9 and I use oyster shells? Please explain the whole concept to me, please??? Thanks

johnson lee
Veteran

Apr 18, 2002, 12:03 PM

Post #23 of 35 (107743 views)
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Re: [dttk] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Dr Tan, Mark and the rest!

No hard feelings on my side. I am still learning everyday from all of you. Cool

Maybe I should clarify what I have said in my earlier message: I am suggesting that comparing leaching the pond with acid or pineapple skin to reduce the pH, I prefer using Baking soda. This is in the context of those who have started putting fishes into the pond and not for new ponds. For new ponds, acid or pineapple skin is OK because there are no fishes yet! Wink

But once there are already fishes, the owner may need to remove the fishes from the pond if acid is used. So to prevent this hassle, I have suggested baking soda which will definitely bring the pH down from 9 to 8.4.

To answer Dr Tan's question, "How to bring it further down to 7.4-7.6?", well from what I understand, over a period of time, the pH will slowly drop as the carbonates in the water is used up and it will balanced itself, unless the pH in your tap water is unusually high to begin with. Most concrete ponds will initially register high pH because of the limestone. But as long as your pH is not above 9.5-10, then one should not be overly concerned because as the pond matures and as the carbonates are used up, the pH will naturally drop.

That is the reason why most ponders are more concerned about pH crashes than high pH! So we use oyster shells, cockles, coral chips, baking soda etc. to buffer the pH of the water. As I have said earlier, once you manage to get your pH reduced to 8.4 using baking soda, it will stay that way and then later on, the pH will start to fall. What is more important is to keep your KH above 120 at any time. I hope what I have said make sense! Sly

Comments welcomed.

Rgds

Johnson

dttk
Veteran

Apr 18, 2002, 3:04 PM

Post #24 of 35 (107737 views)
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Re: [johnson lee] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Johnson, I understand what you mean. Thank you. Smile

Regarding maintaining KH always above 120ppm, there are some opinions from another BB about the benefits of a lower KH of 80-90ppm. It seems koi grows faster and their gill colour a healthier bright red compared to those kept in harder water. I'm maintaining mine at 80ppm because my tap water is quite soft and I dislike adding baking soda on a regular basis. Smile

Always friendly :)

doitsu
Novice

Apr 18, 2002, 3:45 PM

Post #25 of 35 (107736 views)
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Re: [johnson lee] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Johnson,

When you talk about baking soda, what is it specifically cause I'm afraid I'll buy the wrong thing. Could tell me specifically what it is as well as the name if they do sell them in packets? Any additional information would be helpful.
And one can add them together with the fishes in the pond right???
Thank you, really learned a lot. Crazy

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