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Happy Birthday John Newgen!

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newgen
Koi Lover

Sep 18, 2002, 3:53 PM

Post #26 of 60 (3632 views)
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Re: [SMW1] Happy Birthday John Newgen! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hey Brother!

It's ok! Cool

I'm cool! Anyway, very interesting indeed! but, guess what, i don't understand most of your posts cause i haven't seen THE ANSWER before! Unsure

Thanks guys!

John

HWONG
Koi Addict

Sep 18, 2002, 4:16 PM

Post #27 of 60 (3629 views)
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Re: [dttk] Happy Birthday John Newgen! [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

In the meantime, the pumps in the last chamber are still working! They will drain off the last few chambers and cause the pumps to heat up. Water from the pond will not enter the filter via gravity when the pumps stop pumping. So there will not be any overflow.

SMW1
Koi Kichi

Sep 18, 2002, 4:18 PM

Post #28 of 60 (3628 views)
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Re: [HWONG] Happy Birthday John Newgen! [In reply to]	Can't Post

I think it deleted your typing ???

johnson lee
Koi Kichi

Sep 18, 2002, 4:45 PM

Post #29 of 60 (3626 views)
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Re: [newgen] Happy Birthday John Newgen! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Whoa! I haven't a clue what you guys are muttering about! Crazy

I better look at the previous posts and catch up.

All I know it has got something to do with the Answer if and when it gets clogged up.

SMW1
Koi Kichi

Sep 18, 2002, 5:21 PM

Post #30 of 60 (3625 views)
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Re: [johnson lee] Happy Birthday John Newgen! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Looks like we all need the answer. What was the question ? Sly

dttk
Senior Member

Sep 19, 2002, 10:38 AM

Post #31 of 60 (3622 views)
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Re: [SMW1] Happy Birthday John Newgen! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi guys

, as I see it, the end result of the rotor pump breaking down is not one but may fall under any one of these categories. All depends on the size of the chambers and the height of the partition between each chamber. I'm only referring to the up-down type of inground multichamber filter that most of us have.

What are these categories or scenarios? If the mesh gets clogged and no water flows thru it via gravity,

1)then in a small pump chamber separated from mats chamber by a partition that allows just 3in of water to flow over, the returning pumps will continue to draw in 3in of water from mats chamber, then, proceed to empty the pump chamber itself, causing pump problem. The amount of water that was pumped out may not be sufficient to cause the incoming pond water (water finds it's level) via bottom drain, to cause an overflow into subsequent chambers. Morever, the standpipes in the settlement chamber that also act as overflow pipes will just divert this water into the dry sump. So the water level in the mats chamber is still below the partition level and the pump chamber is still empty. The pump burns out.

2)if the water level in the settlement chamber rises due to more water coming from bottom drain, it may not overflow properly into the next chamber if the design of the settlement chamber is not correct.

So, please take a moment to ponder over these possibilities. We can discuss about the solutions later. Smile

Always friendly :)

HWONG
Koi Addict

Sep 19, 2002, 11:39 AM

Post #32 of 60 (3616 views)
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Re: [SMW1] Happy Birthday John Newgen! answers to answer??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yes Stuart, I got zapped on my post and now I have lost my thoughts. I think I was saying is The water volume in the last few chambers is big enough to swamp the pond unless the pump gets fried. The 1st chamber will now be at the same level as the pond and if there is an oulet for water to travel to 2nd chamber I suppose pump will not get fried.

Stuart, you have got the Answers. Why dont you experiment and give us the answers.

SMW1
Koi Kichi

Sep 19, 2002, 2:25 PM

Post #33 of 60 (3611 views)
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Re: [dttk] Happy Birthday John Newgen! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Dr Tan,

I see your points and understand what you are saying.

if you have the answer fitted then the connection between the mech chamber (home to the answer) and the next chamber (probably bio) will be done by a 4 inch pipe. This is not by choice but by way of design. The answer chamber has no other access to the bio chamber except this 4" pipe. So from what you are saying we have a situation where all chambers with the exception of the anser chamber are almost run dry. This means that water has to go somewhere right ?. Obviously the pond level will rise which due to gravity will feed the answer chamber more water which will cause this to overflow. So we could in fact use Hwongs suggestion or overflow pipes in the answer chamber, which only get used if the answer pump fails.

However this way you will be loading up your bio filters with waste and debris. If you used my suggestion and had overflow pipes from the pond (above normal water level), going back into the pump chamber. You have no overflow, but yes you also have no filter.

It's a tough call to make, unless you have the a 2nd mech chamber with brushes as Hwong suggested and the overflow from the answer to the brushes, you are never completely covered.

But then what do you do if your normal pumps fail in the pump chamber ? nothing, you just don't have a filter.

SMW1
Koi Kichi

Sep 19, 2002, 2:29 PM

Post #34 of 60 (3610 views)
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Re: [HWONG] Happy Birthday John Newgen! answers to answer??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Hwong,

I hate it when that happens. You write the longest post ever and it disapears into thin air. Frown

I have 2 x 410 models, but they are both in their boxes still Wink

. I will experiement once the new pond is finished. However, I will have to now incorperate this into the design. before I complete the new pond.

This has been a really interesting discussion and has given me new ideas. I feel, by the time my new pond is complete I will have all the bases covered so to speak.

Stuart

dttk
Senior Member

Sep 19, 2002, 3:27 PM

Post #35 of 60 (3604 views)
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Re: [SMW1] Happy Birthday John Newgen! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Stuart

, thank you for spending some time thinking over my arguments. However I'm still alittle sceptical about it... Crazy

. The best thing would be to see a working unit and simulate a rotor pump failure! Sly

....would you like to volunteer?....just kidding! Laugh

. Yes, I think both Hwong and your solution are workable in the event such a failure occur. Have a nice day "chasing the koi", fellow addict... Laugh

.
Always friendly :)

johnson lee
Koi Kichi

Sep 19, 2002, 3:31 PM

Post #36 of 60 (3601 views)
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Re: [dttk] Happy Birthday John Newgen! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sorry guys....I still haven't got a clue what is happening on this thread! Crazy

Someone pls give me a hard knock on the head!! It's not working! Unsure

SMW1
Koi Kichi

Sep 19, 2002, 3:33 PM

Post #37 of 60 (3601 views)
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Re: [dttk] Happy Birthday John Newgen! [In reply to]	Can't Post

All jokes aside I will try a simulation, once my new pond is set up and before I add koi. I will provide full documentation and pictures of my finding. hopefully this can be used by forum member in future designs. It canbe easily tested by filling the answer chamber with debris and cutting the power to the internal pump.

What else would anyone like me to test or experiment with ?. I'm open to any suggestions or ideas as long as it doesn't do any damage to my pond.

dttk
Senior Member

Sep 19, 2002, 3:43 PM

Post #38 of 60 (3598 views)
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Re: [johnson lee] Happy Birthday John Newgen! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Johnson

, no need to knock your head against the pond wall, I'll mail you a full explaination later... Wink

. Let's continue this under a separate heading if possible. In the meantime, enjoy it while you're here "chasing the koi"... Angelic

.
Always friendly :)

SMW1
Koi Kichi

Sep 19, 2002, 3:44 PM

Post #39 of 60 (3597 views)
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Re: [johnson lee] Happy Birthday John Newgen! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Johnson,

We are discussing a graviety fed filter system which would inclue "the answer" (mechanical substitute for brushes etc). Check here for details about the device http://www.evolutionaqua.com/ .

We are trying to come up with a backup plan for if the pump within "the answer" fails (refered to as the internal pump). If the internal pump fails, "the answer" will clog up blocking the enterance to the bio chambers. Therefore the pumps in the pump chamber will still be functioning at full strengh. Therefore you have a situation where "the answer" chamber is still full with water but the bio chambers are being pumped empty, hense the pond water level rises (hense being a gravity fed filter the answer chamber level will also rise) and then when the water in the pump chamber has been depleted the pumps will dry up and burn out.

We are thowing suggestions into the wind about how to have a backup if this ever happens. Our backup consists of overflow pipes. Either in the pond back to the pump chamber to keep the pumps submerged in water (reventing burn out but stopping filtration) or putting overflow pipes in "the answer" chamber thus preventing overflow and burnout of pumps in pump chamber but letting debris through to the bio filters.

I hope you get the gist of what we are discussing now Unsure

. I suspect that many others are also a little confused about what we are discussing. Crazy

Here's a little clue. It has nothing to do with John's 18th birthday Sly

johnson lee
Koi Kichi

Sep 19, 2002, 4:34 PM

Post #40 of 60 (3594 views)
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Re: [SMW1] Happy Birthday John Newgen! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Dr Tan and Stuart

Thanks for the explanation. Now I have a better idea of what's going on! Sly

In fact, I have been thinking about this when the subject of the Answer was brought for discussion by Hwong when we last met at Dr Tan's place.

Let me try and understand this: If it is a gravity fed filter system, whether the Answer is clogged or not, wouldn't it be true to say that water will continue to flow into this chamber? The only difference is that since the Answer isn't working, unfiltered water will flow into the bio-chambers. Unless I am wrong in my visualisation here! Crazy

Unless you guys are saying that water from the pond enters the 1st chamber and will have to pass through the Answer first before flowing into the 2nd chamber. If so, then I understand why you guys are so concerned in the event the pump fails or gets clogged up.

If I am getting the drift of the discussion, then the problem lies with the 1st chamber and not the pump chamber. If you have a pipe that runs directly from the pond into the pump chamber as a preventive measure, then yes it will keep the pump submerged but its 'dirty' water right? The solution to this is to have 2 Answers running side by side and it is rather unlikely that 2 pumps would kaput simultaneously. If one is still running, then there will never be a problem of the pump in the pump chamber getting overheated and burnt. However the question remains whether the clogged Answer will get spoiled or not in the event of a clog.

I am suggesting 2 Answers because I believe a pond owner who wants to convert to this system would be prepared to pay the money for this in view of the large pond and the Answer is supposed to reduce the size of the filter system. Hence to compensate for the lesser cost in constructing more chambers, the cost is passed on to the getting 2 Answers!

That is the main reason why I am still sceptical over its long term benefits. Moreover, I think the electricity bill will go sky high too! Smile

I hope I am not talking nonsense and am following you guys correctly.

Johnson

SMW1
Koi Kichi

Sep 19, 2002, 5:29 PM

Post #41 of 60 (3592 views)
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Re: [johnson lee] Happy Birthday John Newgen! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yes Johnson we are concerned that the water can only enter the bio chamber via "the answer" there is no other way in. So if this does clog up and does not let any water flow through then there is no other way to the bio chamber.

You almost read my mind Johnson, I orgionally bought two 410 models, but not for backup purposes. I bought two becase the max flow rate was 13,000 litres an hour. I needed something that will cope with 20,000 so I bought two (now when my barcly card statement comes through the letter box it dents the floor - beacuse it's so heavy).

Although I have two answers, I think buying another one just for the sake of a backup would be money not very well spent. They are very expensive and unless you are loaded which I'm sure most of us are not. Then this would be very ahrd to justify the expense. I would prefer Hwong suggestion of an extra brush chamber, which has an overflow form the answer chamber (or directly form the pond - overflow only).

P.S I have never heard any nonsense from you and I doubt I ever will Cool

HWONG
Koi Addict

Sep 19, 2002, 6:27 PM

Post #42 of 60 (3591 views)
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Re: [SMW1] Happy Birthday John Newgen! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Stuart, That idea is proprietory Mad

and it will cost you a jug or two. Sly

SMW1
Koi Kichi

Sep 19, 2002, 6:45 PM

Post #43 of 60 (3590 views)
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Re: [HWONG] Happy Birthday John Newgen! [In reply to]	Can't Post

It already has cost me a fair few jugs Hwong Frown

johnson lee
Koi Kichi

Sep 20, 2002, 10:39 AM

Post #44 of 60 (3582 views)
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Re: [SMW1] Happy Birthday John Newgen! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Stuart

That is one of the main reason why I'm inclined to think that the Answer is NOT the answer to my mechanical filtration problem! If you need to have a separate chamber for brushes, just in case the Answer fails, then I might as well use the conventional brush filter without having to pay extra for an expensive pump which also adds up to my electricity bill! Crazy

Can someone pls tell me what the Answer can do that the mechanical brushes cannot do? Wink

Water enters the Answer and there is a circular-like pump which pushes the dirt downwards and removed and cleaner water then flows to the bio-chambers. I have seen Dr Tan's mechanical chamber and it works almost perfectly and his cost, the black brushes. No extra pump and no extra electric cost!

If the claim of the Answer is less space for a mech filter, then I'm not sure with the proposed additional brush chamber just in case the Answer fails, makes any difference.

Just my humble opinion anyway. Smile

Cheers!

Johnson

TonyG
Koi Lover

Sep 20, 2002, 1:20 PM

Post #45 of 60 (3577 views)
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Re: [johnson lee] Happy Birthday John Newgen! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Well, I think if space is a constraint and you want to have a bigger pond and smaller filter, than 'THE ANSWER' is the answer. I agree with Johnson that if you need to have brushes just for back up in case of failure, than why used the ANSWER. There is always a price to pay. Smile

Tony

SMW1
Koi Kichi

Sep 20, 2002, 2:15 PM

Post #46 of 60 (3573 views)
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Re: [TonyG] Happy Birthday John Newgen! [In reply to]	Can't Post

I don't think you need the brush chamber as a backup. This was just an idea from Hwong to be on the safew side. I personally am not going to have another mech chamber, even if I only had 1 of "the answer" I still would not have brushes as a backup.

If you are going to pay a small fortune for a mechanical filter you don't expect it to break down very often if at all.

I think that when we started on this subject we just wanted to cover all bases. I suppose we could put the same argument on "what would happen if your bottom drain got blocked with blanket weed) ?.

If the worst comes to the worst and the internal pump of the answer fails, and you have catered for this with overflow pipes back into the pump chamber as I origionally suggested. You are looking at a small percentage of filtration only for less then 12 hours maybe (based on a standard koi keeper who see's his koi morning and night.).

cby
Koi Lover

Oct 22, 2002, 1:08 AM

Post #47 of 60 (3557 views)
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Re: [SMW1] Happy Birthday John Newgen! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Stuart,

I'm BoonYong, the one who showed The Answer to Dr Tan and Wong. Firstly, I am not a koi dealer but koi kichi like you guys and I started looking into The Answer for my new house. My investigations convinced me that it is a very clever product and when Max, the Asean sole distributor suggested I help him develop the Malaysian market, I didn't see much to lose.

In setting up a test pond, I've experimented a fair bit with the Answer including turning off the "cleaner" pump that clears the mesh.

Sure water will overflow from the settlement chamber which does need to be given a controlled outlet and the suggestion for this dirty water to flow into the pump chamber is probably the most sensible one.

The question of how much the water level rises in the settlement chamber really depends on the relative volumes of the pond and the filter chambers.

Gravity fed by definition means that the pond level would be the same as the settlement chamber level. Thus a possible configuration would be to have the pond overflow go directly to the pump chamber with a second overflow set at a higher level in the pump chamber that goes to the dry sump. This way, you protect the pumps and if there is a serious overflow, there is still an outlet to the dry sump.

Does that make sense? You are welcomed to call me on 012-2099030 to discuss further and share thoughts on pond building. But I think you did put it all into perspective however that the discussion was covering all bases!

Anyhow, for your peace of mind, we have the backup pumps on standby so The Answer should be restored within 12 hours of downtime. The pumps by the way are from OASE in Germany and reputed for reliability.

SMW1
Koi Kichi

Oct 22, 2002, 2:16 AM

Post #48 of 60 (3556 views)
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Re: [cby] Happy Birthday John Newgen! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Cby,

Thanks very much for your contribution in this forum. Do you know Trever Pearson ?. He is the one who showed me the answer here in the UK. Yes I believe the pump within the answer is an Oase aquamax10000 if I'm not wrong.

So I guess that there has been abit of a slow start to the import business, I'm sure as confidence increases and word gets aound the malaysian market will be climbing over each other to get the answer. I personally believe its the best and most important aspect to consider in pond construction since fiber glassing.

I would love to call you to discuss further, but since I am in the UK, it ill cost me half the price of the answer to talk Frown

.

Take Care and good luck.

Stuart

dttk
Senior Member

Oct 22, 2002, 10:05 AM

Post #49 of 60 (3548 views)
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Re: [cby] Happy Birthday John Newgen! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Boon Yong Smile

, glad to see you in the forum. Yes, I do see your point about having the 1st overflow from pond back to pump chamber(last chamber) and a 2nd higher overflow from pump chamber to dry sump in the event of the rotary pump breaking down. Smile

This was also suggested by Stuart when we had a discussion in the forum right after the visit to your place with H.Wong and WC Chan. H.Wong however suggested to have the overflow from the settlement chamber into the next chamber with brushes. This would require an extra chamber to be build between the settlement chamber (where the Answer is) and the biochamber (where the mats or maybe even K1 is). I agree that this may not be necessary in filters yet to be build with the Answer in mind(like Stuart's). However in those who already have a multichamber filter using the old method of filtration, H.Wong's suggestion may be more suitable if the Answer is to be incorporated. What do you guys think? Smile

Rgds. Dr.Tan
Always friendly :)

(This post was edited by dttk on Oct 22, 2002, 10:07 AM)

SMW1
Koi Kichi

Oct 22, 2002, 2:08 PM

Post #50 of 60 (3535 views)
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Re: [dttk] Happy Birthday John Newgen! [In reply to]	Can't Post

I guess there would be no harm in having a backup chamber of brushes. If you already have two chambers of brushes. Just replace one of them with the answer and keep your boi filters the same.

Boon Yong,

Just out of interest, do you also supply the Nexus to Malaysia ?

Stuart

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