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A question for the experienced, or experts

 





 


goldminer
Koi Lover

Dec 31, 2007, 5:59 PM

Post #1 of 6 (2181 views)
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A question for the experienced, or experts Can't Post

Simple basic ball or tube mill external-internal design.

A ball or tube mill can be built to handle considerable weight.
A simple steel I beam frame, with tank/drum sitting on 4 small rubber tires, on axle’s.
Simple bearings & electric motor drive train (sprocket & chain) to turn 2 drive tires in tandem.
Which will rotate the tank/drum @ any time interval, or speed desired.

The object being, large surface area to hold a considerable amount of about any type bio-house-media & adequate water flow volume (gravity or pump).

Ability to rotate (spin) tank/drum on a timer, 0, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, 1 complete, or multiple revolutions as desired.

When tank/drum rotates & stops, bio-house-media inside tumbles.
Slight slow rotation tumbling effect aerates/moves/cleans the media.

For a hvy duty cleaning, in a heavy loaded system.
Bypass primary water flow to tank/drum.
Spin rapidly, stop & flush out funk.
Reconnect to system & flow.

2 of these, would allow cleaning of 1, while the other remains in operation.
Anybody do anything like this?

Simple & very cost effective to operate.

I have large shop, eqt & the ability to build DIY.

Would appreciate constructive pro/con comments. Tongue


(This post was edited by goldminer on Jan 2, 2008, 1:11 PM)


mintaka
Koi Lover

Jan 3, 2008, 5:53 PM

Post #2 of 6 (2125 views)
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Re: [goldminer] A question for the experienced, or experts [In reply to] Can't Post
Is this essentially a biofilter filter designed to clean easily?

It looks a lot like the ball mills we use(d) in the paint industry to prepare pigment dispersions.
We used steatite or steel shot as media and it created a heck of a lot of shear. I'm not sure that a soft biofilm of nitrifiers that grows on the filter media would be all to appreciative of the harsh ball milling action.

I have tried bubling air through my gravel filter, and that dislodges the sediment nicely. It takes the shape of an undergravel filter lattice, which you just hook up to a compressor for a few seconds. If you get it just right, the air bubbles causes the gravel to vibrate slightly. No moving parts either.

Just my 2cents.


(This post was edited by mintaka on Jan 3, 2008, 6:01 PM)


goldminer
Koi Lover

Jan 3, 2008, 11:27 PM

Post #3 of 6 (2117 views)
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Re: [mintaka] A question for the experienced, or experts [In reply to] Can't Post
Easy to maintain & clean is the goal.
Looks do not matter as it & modified bacci shower will be inside shed built on greenhouse adjoining pond.

You have it right about ball mills.
In my profession (now retired), we used them to grind silver/gold ore (rock) to powder in huge steel ones.
(after rock went through jaw & cone crusher, to down-size to fit into ball mill)

This will not get spun often & NOT fast.
Only purpose of ability to spin, is to clean internal bio-media & dislodge any internal sludge/sediment build up.
So, 1 or 2 very slow rotations, should do it.
Only once or twice a year.

You are right bio-film would not enjoy, a washing machine effect.
But, a slow single gentle spin would agitate/clean media, without killing all the bacteria present.
So, funk, gunk & any sludge/sediment could be flushed out (with ease).

Plus, with 2 units, side by side.
I could clean one, while other is still in line.
Wait a month, then clean other.
So, at no time is whole system stripped clean of bio-bacteria.

Plan (for now, anyway) is pumped flow from bottom pond drain into modified double 4 tier bacci showers.
(bacci showers seem to disintigate fecal solids to micron size)
Then, flow through these ball mill units into sump tank.
(micron size waste is far easier for bacteria to digest, than big chunks)
With large foam fractionator in sump tank, to remove DOC content, then pumped back into pond.
That line will have a modified venturi type aerator in it, to insure that flow is well oxygenated.

From all I have seen, most Koi pond filter systems are on-going almost lifetime prodjects.
Subject to all sorts of new modifications, rebuilds, etc., if not well thought out & engineered, the first go around.

I want to do this once & right the first time.
With minimal, easy maintance.

I do not mind the extra initial cost.
As, over time, that will get paid back.
By low maintance & ease of cleaning.


(This post was edited by goldminer on Jan 4, 2008, 7:22 AM)


mintaka
Koi Lover

Jan 4, 2008, 2:44 PM

Post #4 of 6 (2094 views)
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Re: [goldminer] A question for the experienced, or experts [In reply to] Can't Post
Helo Goldminer,

I agree, one or two gentle rolls should not harm the bacteria. Let us know how it works if you decide to go this route.

When it comes to filtration, the usual flow of events prefered by most hobbyists are along these lines:

1. Water flows out the bottom drain to settlement chamber(s) (sump tank) via gravity.
2. Water flows through mechanical filter via gravity. (net, brushes, pot scourers )
3. Water passes over airation ring in anticipation of aerobic biofilter processes.
4) Through biofilter via gravity (your mill design would presumably fit in here)
5) Pump (sometimes through UV clarifier) to top of Bakki
6) Cascade ( sometimes through vegetable filter) back to pond.

Note the pump is only employed late in the drill. The rationale is that the large particles settle out first in the settlement chamber without first being dispersed by the pump or other filtration components. The remainig smaller particles are trapped in the mechanical filter.The settlement chamber and mechanical filter should be build to allow them to be cleaned and drained with relative ease.

The idea is that when the water hits the bacteria (in the biofilter or bakki), it should be rich in oxygen, free of particles, and contain only dissolved waste (most notably ammonia and nitrite).

The plants then suck up whatever nitrates are created in the process. You pull some leaves off every so often, and remove nitrate that way. That said, I grow hyacinths in my settlement chambers! The net-like roots do good service as a mechanical filter. I tried them in the pond once, but the fish were too hard on the plants. If you are lucky enough to have algal growth on the sides of your pond, you can dispense with the vegetables.

I would however be careful of putting the bakki in first. This will presumably be preceded by a pump, both of which will do a good job of dispersing the solids to a fineness that will be hard to get out of the system.

As I understand it, the bacterial processes responsible for digesting solids are anaerobic, which is not desirable in your pond system. Better to drain off the solids regularly than letting it rot away.

Best regards.


goldminer
Koi Lover

Jan 6, 2008, 12:18 PM

Post #5 of 6 (2041 views)
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Re: [mintaka] A question for the experienced, or experts [In reply to] Can't Post
Thanks Mintaka

>>>>>>>>>>>
When it comes to filtration, the usual flow of events prefered by most hobbyists are along these lines:

1. Water flows out the bottom drain to settlement chamber(s) (sump tank) via gravity.
2. Water flows through mechanical filter via gravity. (net, brushes, pot scourers )
3. Water passes over airation ring in anticipation of aerobic biofilter processes.
4) Through biofilter via gravity (your mill design would presumably fit in here)
5) Pump (sometimes through UV clarifier) to top of Bakki
6) Cascade ( sometimes through vegetable filter) back to pond.
<<<<<<<<<<


My concern is the gravity flow rate from the ponds bottom drain, without a pump.
But, I gather,if you use large enough pipe, that is not a concern.
Plus, I could install an air lift in the pipe, to help the flow along.

So far plan on about a 11,000 gallon pond (not counting what's in the pipes & filter system.

Pond plan is 4ft above ground & another sloped 4ft below ground.
(water flow from shallow end to deep end)
With a debris skimmer on top & a bottom drain.

Still a plan in progress. Snow is deep & ground is frozen here.

I plan to build a 12ft X 24ft lean-to shed on the back our existing greenhouse.
To house the pump/filters inside & a fry tank indoors.

Some of my rough tentative plans, so far below.
Still working it all out.

Given the costs involved, I don't want to make mistakes.





Idea's for how to settle out fecal solids






(This post was edited by goldminer on Jan 6, 2008, 12:20 PM)


mintaka
Koi Lover

Jan 7, 2008, 5:20 PM

Post #6 of 6 (2001 views)
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Re: [goldminer] A question for the experienced, or experts [In reply to] Can't Post
Wow thats a big pond! You're gonna grow some huge koi in that baby! With my limited experience I'd say your design looks sound. The more effort you put in initially in building easy-to-clean settlement chambers and mech filters, the better. This will keep the rest of the filter free of gunk, and improve the pond clarity.

I think the reason, as you said, why the filter is an ongoing issue with a lot of fishkeepers is because, while just sufficient initially, its not big enough later on when the growing fish population (mass and numbers) puts ever more pressure on the marginally effective filter. I mean, show me a koi keeper that honours the rule of thumb of "3.5kg fish max per 1 cubic meter of pond"! So design the biggest filter you imagine you'll ever need. Then multiply by 2, and build that.

Good planning is indeed important. My main regret stemming from impulsive building is that my Sc's do not have a drain system! To clean I have to scoop the muck-water out into buckets every week. Definately not the way to ga In retrospect I would have made it more user friendly, perhaps with a drain valve. So I'm installing a pipe lattice and permanent small pump. Ongoing project indeed!

I've attached a schematic of my pond for interest.

Best regards,
Ronnie


(This post was edited by mintaka on Jan 7, 2008, 5:28 PM)
Attachments: Schematic.JPG (41.1 KB)

 
 
 



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