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Home: KOI Talk: DIY Corner:
Brushes vs. Static k1

 






 


njin9
Koi Lover

Dec 18, 2007, 1:56 PM

Post #1 of 17 (2716 views)
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Brushes vs. Static k1 Can't Post

Which is better in terms of water quality? Brushes or a Static K1 set-up?

If someone has converted from one to the other, what is easier to clean?



------------------------------------------------------------------------
Short-term intense, (obsessive) hard work to long-term laziness.

Do


goldy
Koi Lover

Jan 20, 2008, 5:45 AM

Post #2 of 17 (2617 views)
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Re: [njin9] Brushes vs. Static k1 [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Do
I would go for static k1 in the first drum in an easy around 30 litres wins hands down on brushes,
Fluid k1 in drums 2 and 3 , jap mat in four to polish the water. I have just seen there is a drum 5.? But your pumping at 250 gallons per hour.??????????
Don’t know if you still want to know but microns are best converted to mm.
So a 1000 microns is 1mm. 500 microns is half a mm .


njin9
Koi Lover

Jan 20, 2008, 2:00 PM

Post #3 of 17 (2608 views)
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Re: [goldy] Brushes vs. Static k1 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the reply.
I was figuring on K1.

The first 3 drums are parallel. All are identical up-flow pump-fed system. Their primary role is to let solids and tiny particles settle. I highly doubt if the tiny particles will settle even if each drum is taking in 250 gph. I intend to fill each drum with roughly 6"(15 cm) of static K1 at the top. Just to keep the tiny particles from moving in to drum 4. Then the three drums down-flow and merge into drum 4, which will be a fluid K1.
drum 5 will be a j-mat type of bio-filter.

I only intend to be able to clean #1-4 through backflushing with slide valves. And nothing else. No scrubbing. No rinsing. Just backflush using a reverse bottom drain in each drum. Not even going to consider cleaning #5. If any, it's to drain the drum at the end of autumn so nothing freezes inside the drum and pipes.

I already have 6 trickle towers made and waiting installation in the spring. These are 5'x 4" perforated PVC. I intend to pump water from drum 5 to the trickle towers. Don't have a pump yet, and have not fully explored my options yet. This isn't urgent. But it's there if I should into water quality problems.

So ideally I want to push roughly 225-275 gph into each drum. So that's 675-825 ghp including head lost for this one filter. It's not bad. I have a small pond. 1200 g. I know my turnover rate is not 1:1. But I'm willing to live with that. I am considering adding additional pumps to feed more water to this filter. But must see if this flow rate is enough, too much or can tolerate more flow. If particles don't settle, then there's no point to having these first three drums. They are the pre-filter units. Otherwise go with bakki showers, and pump a lot of water.

Planning to build another set of filters, and join an earlier existing pond through a stream/waterway. But that's a summer project. My fish are small. They will grow, and hopefully I can keep up with their pace.



------------------------------------------------------------------------
Short-term intense, (obsessive) hard work to long-term laziness.

Do


goldy
Koi Lover

Jan 20, 2008, 7:50 PM

Post #4 of 17 (2597 views)
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Re: [njin9] Brushes vs. Static k1 [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Do.
Ok now I see your logic. Looking at your foot note (Short-term intense, (obsessive) hard work to long-term laziness.)
If I may make a suggestion. 3* 55 gallon drums flushed 2 to 3 recommended times to clean the k1. is a pain but also waist’s a lot of mature pond water if your on a meter works out expensive as well, big water changes could give you your koi problems.
K1 in an easy pump fed as well is a very good mechanical filter. Just one drum to clean. Follow this with fluidised k1 and j, mat in three to polish the water clean occasionally maybe a fourth for buffers depending on your water?
Keep the filter running through winter?
A shower/ trickle filter would compliment this run on a different circuit though you could just run this in summer like you said.
Is it possible to sink the drums to cut down on head loss to increase your turnover rate? What size pipe you using to connect the drums together?
Joining two ponds via a stream sounds nice but would be a problem in winter with rapid temp drop.
John.


njin9
Koi Lover

Jan 22, 2008, 3:24 AM

Post #5 of 17 (2561 views)
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Re: [goldy] Brushes vs. Static k1 [In reply to] Can't Post

Jon, I know what you're talking about.

But I don't plan on cleaning all three drums at once. I just plan on backflushing one drum once a week. The the next week, do the 2nd drum. And the following week do the 3rd. This is a recurring cycle.

This is just to remove settlement at the bottom. I simply close off the input pipe. Swoosh the static K1 around and give it time to let settlements that the K1 had trapped to settle to the bottom. Then open up the reverse BD to fill 2-4 5gallon buckets worth of filtered/settled scum water. Then water the garden with this fertilized water. Open the input pipe again and let the drum continue to do it's settling job.

Consider this part of a routine water change. 2-4 5gallon buckets is 10-20 gallons. This is very little compared to the 120gallons I expect I will need to do when the kois are bigger and mature. I also expect to lose water to evaporating, and hopefully not too much to sprays and splashes. I guess I will see how much water I actually use by how much 5gallon buckets I fill. This is all arbitrary because I can stop whenever I deemed the drum is 'clean enough'. Let's see how lazy I get. I'm considering putting in water lettuce into the first 3 drums with the static K1 to help mechanically filter out tiny particles. Water lettuce has roots that will trap them. The lettuce will also grow, thereby using and removing N compounds and organic matter. It's easy to pick and pluck yellow leaves before they decay. The only problem, is the filters are heavily shaded, which makes giving light to the plants harder. They might grow lanky and pale instead of deep green and bushy. Plus being in my filters, the lettuce will be safe from kois which like to bite and eat them. Also the lettuce will add to the bio-filter capacity, despite being in a mechanical filtering zone. Now I have to figure out how to protect my water lilies.

I think I need 3 settlement tanks(3x55gallon drums) b/c I don't have a large capacity, big diameter vortex tank. vortex filter is it worth the ringgit?
Good article if you get the chance to read it. For the record, I had my filters done, but this article explains it very well, and just confirms what I had thought.
If I wanted to pump more water, then I can add more parallel settlement drums along with the 3 that I do have. I don't want to add more flow rate per drum because crud won't settle. Even if static K1, too much flow rate will start rotating the media inside the drum. This will eventually let crude enter the pipes and move on to drum4. The only problem with adding more drums to this filtering system is the pipe capacity. Right now I have only 2' fittings and pipes hooked up. I don't know what the capacity of 2' pipes are (gravity fed). Hopefully I'm just below that. Otherwise I have an overflow problem. Luckily for me, I have presence of mine to build in overflow pipes. Will have to wait till spring to find out for sure. Much easier and better to build a separate secondary filter elsewhere. That's my intention once I join the two ponds.

As much as I want to sink the drums into the ground to make it gravity fed, I can't because of the pipework. I won't be able to get access to the filters if they(top of drums) are flushed at ground level. There's not enough physical space to dig around them (like a trench) so that I may do maintenance work around them. This will limit me to using pond vacuums to clean out my filters. But hooking up the pipes(down-up + overflow) will be a nightmare in such tight quarters. Plus have to do earth retaining walls (3') and reinforcement. Seems like a lot of work to get some more water flow and less head loss. Sinking it down lower (into the ground, but not flushed) will pose the same problems. I want to do a gravity fed system, but will have to think up of a very creative way to do so for the second filter.

Trickle towers are built. Trying to think up of the best possible place to mount them and get filtered water so I don't have to clean it all season long(spring - autumn). Ideally I want to mount this for the 1200gallon pond, where the kois are kept. TT will aerate and degas N compounds, thereby lowering it. Been thinking to getting a 250gph pump to pump water to the TT from drum 4. This will hopefully remove the 'overflow' factor out of this drum which is collecting 3x 250gph from the first 3 drums. Don't think 2x2" pipes is good enough. The 250gph pump will have to deal with 2.5'-3' head loss which should take make it about 150-175gph? if I use a smaller diameter pipe to get more pressure. Even if it's 100gph, that would be fine for 6xTT. More trickle. Less splash and water loss.

Your opinions would be great,
Do




------------------------------------------------------------------------
Short-term intense, (obsessive) hard work to long-term laziness.

Do


goldy
Koi Lover

Jan 22, 2008, 6:29 AM

Post #6 of 17 (2555 views)
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Re: [njin9] Brushes vs. Static k1 [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello do.
It’s obvious you have thought about this. And on paper it’s not too bad,
The problems I see are the cleaning cycle of the filters would be keeping crap in the system way too long encouraging the bugs you do not want.
When you close of the input pipe to any of the settlement drums this will cause a faster flow to the other drums disturbing the static k1 and freeing the crap.
K1 will also group around the exit pipe restricting flow which will be a problem,
This is why an easy will be 100 times better.
The easy also helps settlement because of all the holes in the drum amount to a larger surface area, a two inch pipe acts like a vacuum cleaner.
If your piping back to the pond this will cause a siphoning action of the drums, any fluctuation of water levels in the drums is going to disturb the k1 see the problem do.
Swishing the k1 isn’t going to clean it, sorry,
I think also like you the two inch pipe is very touch and go.
I would keep the shower/trickle filter on a separate line Do, filter one should of done its job fluid k1 is also supposed to help with nitrates.

Thermocline I think.
Does not happen in our ponds. If temps are zero at the surface there zero at the bottom.
Water at 4 degrees is at its dencist this only happens in deep water.
I know what your saying though the coldest week here was a few years ago -10 at night, if I said I wasn’t worried I would be lying, the pond never froze but kept at zero
I could’nt get the link you posted,
Sorry about the reply it sounds really bad I think, you will get there though.
john



njin9
Koi Lover

Jan 22, 2008, 12:14 PM

Post #7 of 17 (2540 views)
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Re: [goldy] Brushes vs. Static k1 [In reply to] Can't Post

Jon,
Sorry about the bad link. It was a bad cut and pace.
Here's the new one. Vortex worth the ringgit?

So the biggest concern would be too much time between cleaning per drum?
That's cool. I'll just flush and water the plants more often. It seems I have to do this everyday. Make the cleaning cycle more often then once every four weeks. I think I can fit in some time for that. But I'm pretty sure my idea of cleanliness just got a tad little dirtier.

I understand what you're talking about when you said about the added pressure and water flow due to one pipe being cut-off. You're very right. Higher water velocity will unsettle everything that has settled. Instead of closing off individual pipes, how about I shut down the pump? This is temporary while I do the cleaning. Take 1-2 pails from drum? I'll figure out the back flow somehow. Most likely it will be simple check valves.

I don't have K1 yet, so I don't have any experience with it yet. Squishing it around won't do the job b/c of all the protected space? Is the only way of cleaning them is to do:
  • 1 constant flush and drain or
  • 2 'airification' fluid K1 style?

I know what you're talking about the vacuuming action around the outlet pipe. I've been trying to get small pieces of SS mesh/cloth to custom make my own 2" pipe to allow me to screen out debris while maintaining the 2' D. This should alleviate the vacuuming action, and be it long enough, will allow more surface area for water passing through. If the water rises, it's an indicator that the lower sections are clogged. Time to clean some pipe! I'm sure that I can handle that too.

The pipe doesn't go back to the pond. It drops to a 'collecting' stream behind a lilac bush. The stream meanders to the pond. It's a bit of aesthetics appeal. The stream also collects overflow water from the filter and rain runoff from my back terrace.

Also my TT's are suppose to deposit water there too. But taking your advice, I'm going to put that on hold for now until I can figure some better plan. A seperate system, hmmmCrazy I'm not going to even consider a direct pond to TT. It's not a BS. Plus BS are loud. Too loud for my liking.

Thermocline. I'll look up the word.
Lucky I checked my pond today. Frozen solid. Big Problem. OASE Ice Preventer did not work. Hose and water at surface frozen. Air pump works, but the line or water was so frozen that air could not escape. Had to boil 6 pots of water and 3 kettles to be able to get my Thermo-pond 3.0 into the water. Ice is 4" thick. Not totally through yet. Just enough to get the de-icer in. Hopefully the de-icer will be able to slowly melt the last 1-2". If It doesn't, it means 6 more pots tomorrow. Lucky there's only goldfish in there right now. There are air holes now because the hot water I poured open up the space the OAS and airhoes were. That's where the ice was thinest. It got cold in the last 4-5 days. -12c las couple of days.

Look forward to your input,
Do



------------------------------------------------------------------------
Short-term intense, (obsessive) hard work to long-term laziness.

Do


goldy
Koi Lover

Jan 23, 2008, 5:07 AM

Post #8 of 17 (2516 views)
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Re: [njin9] Brushes vs. Static k1 [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello Do.
I know you have really bad winters a lot worse than ours, and can understand your preference on turning the system off. I watched a documentary when the power lines all got thick with ice and collapsed with the shear weight, too cold for me.
You have done right in putting a hole in the ice let the bad gasses out.

It’s a shame you have not had any experience with static k1, you could swish it or use air. BUT you will still need the 2 or 3 rinses to clean it; you would get rid of the heavy waist in your cleaning method,
But not the fines semi buoyant stuff by a partial flush, so you would be just defeating the object of having static k1.

You have the right idea about the mesh pipe to retain the k1 and cut down on suction.
Why not go one better put a drum inside another drum. Less k1 needed. Less water waist. Less cleaning and a better pre filter?

Maurice Cox who designed the static k1 filter went on to work on the easy with EA. which now has virtually made the answer with the micron screen redundant.
Moving Bed in Vortex DIY

Tao BKK
Has done an excellent job of conversion but I don’t understand why he has got air going into the static k1 settlement bay/vortex.

Vortex filter are good in the fact settle out heavy waist one quick flush all the waist gone very little water waist.

john


njin9
Koi Lover

Jan 23, 2008, 6:36 AM

Post #9 of 17 (2512 views)
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Re: [goldy] Brushes vs. Static k1 [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok. Jon. How about this idea.

Drums 1-3, settlement tanks only. Might add the water lettuce if they prove productive enough.
Drum 4 is the static K1.
Drum 5 is fluid K1.

So flush 1-3 like any settlement tank.
Do repeated flushing of drum 4 till clean.
Don't touch drum 5.



------------------------------------------------------------------------
Short-term intense, (obsessive) hard work to long-term laziness.

Do


goldy
Koi Lover

Jan 24, 2008, 5:10 AM

Post #10 of 17 (2482 views)
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Re: [njin9] Brushes vs. Static k1 [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Do.
That sounds better, it also keeps your options open to revert back to your original plan or remove the three settlement drums which I think you will do.
I will try and take some picks of an old filter that has 2” pipe work, this weekend, you might be able to use some ideas of it for your static filter, if not no problem.
John.


goldy
Koi Lover

Jan 28, 2008, 3:38 AM

Post #11 of 17 (2391 views)
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Re: [goldy] Brushes vs. Static k1 [In reply to] Can't Post

HI DO
put it back together best i could. as you can see it had to be supported.


goldy
Koi Lover

Jan 28, 2008, 3:43 AM

Post #12 of 17 (2388 views)
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Re: [goldy] Brushes vs. Static k1 [In reply to] Can't Post

try again.
Attachments: DSCN0816.JPG (23.2 KB)


goldy
Koi Lover

Jan 28, 2008, 3:48 AM

Post #13 of 17 (2386 views)
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Re: [goldy] Brushes vs. Static k1 [In reply to] Can't Post

as you can see it had to be supported underneath. pros or cons of going through the side or the base.
Attachments: DSCN0808.JPG (25.3 KB)


goldy
Koi Lover

Jan 28, 2008, 4:01 AM

Post #14 of 17 (2384 views)
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Re: [goldy] Brushes vs. Static k1 [In reply to] Can't Post

use a 4" flanged tank conector, and a normal 2" tank connector inside this, then you can isolat the drum when cleaning by fitting a length of 2" pipe inside the static k1 drum.
imagin your static container as a rolled up transfer port the more holes it has the less suction it has, the reason i whent higher up with the holes is becouse the drum is wide and has good depth of k1.
Attachments: DSCN0809.JPG (25.7 KB)


goldy
Koi Lover

Jan 28, 2008, 4:07 AM

Post #15 of 17 (2381 views)
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Re: [goldy] Brushes vs. Static k1 [In reply to] Can't Post

thats soap by the way, too cold to rinse off. the static container just slot's in the outer drum.
Attachments: DSCN0811.JPG (24.8 KB)


goldy
Koi Lover

Jan 28, 2008, 4:15 AM

Post #16 of 17 (2379 views)
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Re: [goldy] Brushes vs. Static k1 [In reply to] Can't Post

the hole next to 2" centre one is to waste a 1.5" flanged tank conector.
the 1.5" conector up the drum side is the inlet, even though i got setlement at a 1000 gals i think it would of been better higher up as not to disturb the bottom.
Attachments: DSCN0812.JPG (18.3 KB)


goldy
Koi Lover

Jan 28, 2008, 4:28 AM

Post #17 of 17 (2378 views)
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Re: [goldy] Brushes vs. Static k1 [In reply to] Can't Post

there's a 2" pipe in the centre of drum 2 which is the oulet the hight determins the water level in the drums there was a differance of about half inch between the drums. drum one was higher becouse of the resistance. the inlet from drum one has a 45d bend on to help with rotation i tried a 90 but the water restriction was too great.which may be a consern for you with more drums and bends ?. i really dont know
Attachments: DSCN0815.JPG (17.1 KB)

 
 
 



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