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DIY Vortex filter from chemical drums

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Lauts
Koi Lover

Sep 22, 2003, 3:20 PM

Post #1 of 33 (7708 views)
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DIY Vortex filter from chemical drums	Can't Post

Hi ,

I am think of doing a vortex filter from chemical drums . The drum is 3ft high, 1.5ft diameter and 40 gal approx . The outlet of the drum will be pump powered back to the pond as the water in the drum is gravity driven. Question: Based on the height of the drum of 3 ft , at what height should the inlet and outlet be ? And how powerful should the pump be ? I am thinking of using it as settlement only without any brushes, to support my current filter chamber. Will it work?

Regards

Lau

cwnchong
Member

Sep 23, 2003, 6:11 PM

Post #2 of 33 (7676 views)
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Re: [Lauts] DIY Vortex filter from chemical drums [In reply to]	Can't Post

Mr Lau,

The height of the drum is not very important. Your vortex has to be placed to match the water level of your pond. Otherwise you will find difficulty calibrating the flow to maintain the required water level in your vortex.

Where should the inlet should be:

The inlet should be about mid-height of the vortex drum & the outlet should a couple of inches below the water level & extended to the centre of the vortex. The top centre part of the water is the cleanest part within the vortex.

Size of the inlet & outlet:

If your vortex is not a sealed type, make sure that the inlet from the pond is large enough prevent pump starving. Your pump may starved when the inlet is not supplying water fast enough to your pump. Otherwise your vortex is a sealed type or vacuumed, the size can be the same.

I hope this helps

cheers

Lauts
Koi Lover

Sep 23, 2003, 6:38 PM

Post #3 of 33 (7672 views)
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Re: [cwnchong] DIY Vortex filter from chemical drums [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi cwnchong ,

Thanks for helpful feedback. I intend to use a 2000lit per hour pump for this vortex which is about 200lit. Based on the size , height of water (3ft if max) do you think it would be too powerful a flow ? Which would defeat the purpose of settlement , rather the detritus will just flow from inflow straight to outflow and back to pond.

Do you also think adding brushes would help or could disrupt the vortex action ?

Regards

Lau

cwnchong
Member

Sep 24, 2003, 12:31 AM

Post #4 of 33 (7669 views)
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Re: [Lauts] DIY Vortex filter from chemical drums [In reply to]	Can't Post

Lau,

2000lit/hour pump is not considered powerful. If your pump is a power head type. The pump output varies & drop quite a bit. What is your pond size? Your 2k/hr powerhead/PUMP can only serve less than 1k pond, to be effective.

A vortex of your size can serve a reasonable large size pond. The flow rate in the vortex should be just enough to generate the spiraling effect with this 2k pump

Normally brushes are not used in the vortex; obstacles will only restrict the spiraling effect.

The inlet should not be smaller than 25mm dia for your pump size and the inlet bulkhead has to elbow toward one side of the drum to generate the vortex.

A reasonable good vortex prefilters about 90% of the submerged waste & will not filter the floating waste. The floating waste are normally taken care of by the skimmer part.

I hope this helps.

mattloui
Koi Lover

Sep 24, 2003, 8:37 AM

Post #5 of 33 (7657 views)
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Re: [cwnchong] DIY Vortex filter from chemical drums [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi, the drums should work more efficiently as a vortex if the base is of conical shape. this way you may not have to flush the entire volume of water in the drum.

here is a link on a DIY conical base for drums.

www.perigee.net/~jrjohns/conepage.html
CHEERS

(This post was edited by mattloui on Sep 24, 2003, 8:40 AM)

Lauts
Koi Lover

Sep 25, 2003, 5:46 PM

Post #6 of 33 (7620 views)
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Re: [cwnchong] DIY Vortex filter from chemical drums [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Guys ,

Thank you for info. My pond is about 8 tonne . My mechanical filter is under capacity and fed from mid water. So most waste settle to the bottom of the pond. My 10 year old DIY pond do not have bottom drains. I intend to do a retro drain and connect to this vortex . Matt , your website was helpful but I would be using siphon instead to drain. I am afraid it could develop leak and this part of vortex is below ground level. Any info on DIY a skimmer to handle leaves ? My pond is shaded by a tree and its like fall here. Leaves everywhere.

Regards

Lau

cwnchong
Member

Sep 28, 2003, 2:55 PM

Post #7 of 33 (7596 views)
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Re: [mattloui] DIY Vortex filter from chemical drums [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Matt, Thanks you for the info on the coned bottom vortex construction method. My DIY vortex doesn't have the cone bottom. Every time I clean it I have to push the settled waste down into the drain hole & flush them down. If not for this problem, my vortex would be perfect. Other than that, I am very happy with its performance.

Actually I was trying to get a suitable material to construct this funnel-like bottom but without success. With your info, I may do as what was recommended, provided I can find the material locally.

cwnchong
Member

Sep 28, 2003, 3:35 PM

Post #8 of 33 (7593 views)
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Re: [Lauts] DIY Vortex filter from chemical drums [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Lau,

Sorry for the late reply. You are right , your filter is under capacity. Probably it is due to your under power pump. The 1st thing you have to look into is to upgrade you pump to turn your pond water around about once every hour.

The other thing is for you to look into your problem about your pond without a bottom drain. With only the existing mid-fed drain, I suppose you can attach an extension pipe from the bottom of the pond to this mid-fed drain hole to act as a bottom drain. This configuration may be a bit odd, but it serve like a normal bottom drain pipe except that this pipe is inside instead of outside the pond. Unless you are prepared to do a major renovation to put in the btm drain with its pipe outside.

You may consider to put a net above your pond to prevent the leaves from dropping into your pond or, the other alternative is to build a skimmer with your discarded pump. The skimmer is best connected to another settlement tank, do not share with your vortex. Vortex is only useful for bottom settlement whereas the skimmer only sucks in the floating particles. Otherwise your vortex will clogged up sooner then expected.

(This post was edited by cwnchong on Sep 28, 2003, 3:38 PM)

koipt
Koi Lover

Sep 29, 2003, 1:11 PM

Post #9 of 33 (7570 views)
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Re: [cwnchong] DIY Vortex filter from chemical drums [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Chong,

I also have an industrial drum, and was thinking to DIY a vortex to improve my mechanical filtering system. Recently, I installed a vegi filter, and noticed some fine particles/waste inside the vegi-box. My current pump-fed tank is only 800litres. I intend to connect the pump to the vortex first, then to the filter. From your experience, do you think it makes any difference for my setup ? I also intend to drill my tank to install a surface skimmer. This skimmer is then connected to the vortex too.

Please advice.

Cheers,
Paul
--
Cheers,
Paul

cwnchong
Member

Sep 29, 2003, 4:48 PM

Post #10 of 33 (7563 views)
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Re: [koipt] DIY Vortex filter from chemical drums [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Paul,

Its depend on your configuration. If your pump is in your fish tank type of pump-fed system, then it is not very beneficial, coz the waste pushed out from the pump are usually minced down into fine particles by the pump rotor. It is not too bad if the mixture is left to flow thru the mechanical media to let these fine particles settle along the way thru the filter chambers, but if vortex is used in this case the 'mixture' of this minced particles will not settle at the bottom in the spiraling effect. Therefore I think a vortex would not as effective as the mechanical settlement chamber.

The other pump-fed system is the type I use in my pond (the 1 I e-mail you before), the pump sucks out the water from the pond & pushes the water into the filter chambers. In this case, a vortex may be placed before the pump. This set-up has 2 advantages. Firstly the waste sucked in by the pump , but via the vortex. The other advantage the pump is cleaner & easy to maintain.

Normally skimmer are used to skim the top surface to remove (floating proteins e.g. DOC, & anything that float on the surface). The vortex only separates the heavier waste that submerge. Anything that floats would not settle in the vortex tank. Therefore it is not beneficial.

I hope this helps

(This post was edited by cwnchong on Sep 29, 2003, 4:53 PM)

cslim
Koi Lover

Sep 29, 2003, 5:29 PM

Post #11 of 33 (7553 views)
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Re: [cwnchong] DIY Vortex filter from chemical drums [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Hi Paul,
Hi Paul, sorry to jump in here.
Its depend on your configuration. If your pump is in your fish tank type of pump-fed system, then it is not very beneficial, coz the waste pushed out from the pump are usually minced down into fine particles by the pump rotor. It is not too bad if the mixture is left to flow thru the mechanical media to let these fine particles settle along the way thru the filter chambers, but if vortex is used in this case the 'mixture' of this minced particles will not settle at the bottom in the spiraling effect. Therefore I think a vortex would not as effective as the mechanical settlement chamber.
Chong, Do you think the the above can be improved by using a tall enough vortex(s), and also put a few layers of mat on top (just like the design from Micky using chemical drums) ? And I think the spiraling effect can be enhanced by connect the outlet to a T joint, extend it to the middle of the vortex, and connect 2 elbow to the 'T', pushing the water out in opposite direction, what do you think ?
The other pump-fed system is the type I use in my pond (the 1 I e-mail you before), the pump sucks out the water from the pond & pushes the water into the filter chambers. In this case, a vortex may be placed before the pump. This set-up has 2 advantages. Firstly the waste sucked in by the pump , but via the vortex. The other advantage the pump is cleaner & easy to maintain.
Is it possible to have a drawing of your design, it seem interesting to me.
Normally skimmer are used to skim the top surface to remove (floating proteins e.g. DOC, & anything that float on the surface). The vortex only separates the heavier waste that submerge. Anything that floats would not settle in the vortex tank. Therefore it is not beneficial.
Again, with the mat, do you think the above can be overcomed ?
I hope this helps

cwnchong
Member

Sep 30, 2003, 4:35 PM

Post #12 of 33 (7522 views)
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Re: [cslim] DIY Vortex filter from chemical drums [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Lim,

I suppose a taller or even bigger vortex do better than a smaller 1. My vortex is quite small made from a prototype 14"dia x 23" high 'TOYOGO' pail-like container c/w cover.

I have also constructed a prototype prefilter for my skimmer. Although this pre-filter has a lot of room for improvement, I found it very effective. My design is based on a very simple principle, i.e. to trap the floatables. Made from a 14" dia. chemical bucket, capped with a 14" plastic transparent basin (sealed to water tight with Sealant around its brim). A 12" similar type basin sitting on top at upright position ( back to back with the 14" basin). Drilled 2 holes thru these 2 basins & raise these holes with similar height sleeves (1.5"). 1 use to release the floating bubbles & waste. The other for draining the collected waste. Although its work, I found water level is rather inconsistent. Because of this problem I have to stop the skimmer pump occationally to let the waste to bedrained

Using Mats inside the vortex, I suppose it should work, but again it becomes a settlement tank rather than a vortex. I may be wrong, I believe a vortex should be cleaned by flushing only & does not require heavy cleaning if no media is in within.

At the moment I am away, I will try to e-mail paul the sketches after my return & hopefully Paul can post them here for me.

I hope other members can come in an share their ideas.

mattloui
Koi Lover

Oct 1, 2003, 9:43 AM

Post #13 of 33 (7512 views)
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Re: [cwnchong] DIY Vortex filter from chemical drums [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ok chong, just a small contribution from my personal experiences with DIY vortex. first, vortex is intended to be devoid of any filtration materials centrifugal force is used to drive the detritus to the bottom and to be collected for easy flushing. By putting brushes and mats to obstruct the flow is simply carrying out mechanical filtration and thus more like a settlement chamber. It works, most definitely, but one has to remove these filter materials for cleaning and in the process will have to drain the entire vortex. Therefore it makes no difference whether the chamber is round or rectangular and the regime of cleaning is still the same.

I have tried without the materials and it was remarkable to see the "s**" moving in circulation and reached the bottom but since the large container did not have a conical base , these s"**" was also agitated whenever the circulation reached the bottom and was in motion. I then converted into a settlement chamber by putting baffles inside and it worked even better, more detritus.This also acted as a prefilter for the skimmer. But cleaning was a chore. At last I gave up and thought maybe i just used one of the chamber in the multi-chamber which i thought would serve the same purpose.(the upflow way).

So, for DIY vortex, I must say that conical base is essential for easy flushing and minimise wastage and the vortex should rightfully be empty. Skimmer should not be connected to vortex as the floating "s**" will be skimmed into the next chamber. Have said that, one should be conscious of the flow, and the pump capacity at the alst chamber must correspond with the inlets and outlets of the vortex. Hope i am of some help.
CHEERS

(This post was edited by mattloui on Oct 1, 2003, 10:01 AM)

cslim
Koi Lover

Oct 1, 2003, 10:36 AM

Post #14 of 33 (7505 views)
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Re: [cwnchong] DIY Vortex filter from chemical drums [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks for the reply.

I am in my second phase of pond improvement program to increase my filter capacity and reduce the maint works required for the filters. Due to space and cost constraint, I am thinking of trying out the 'chemical drum filter' (by Micky in this forum), but instead of 4 drums, I can only place 2 bigger drums, or 3 smaller ones.

As my filter is pump feed, it will be harder to let the waste settle in the first chamber, thus, if I can use a drum that is tall enough, and also enhance the water circulation in the drum, plus some mats to stop the waste from going up, I think I may have a good chance to keep the waste at the bottom, in this case, it's a settlement chamber enhanced with vortex effect (with the T and 2 elbows), somehow close to the design in koikichi, but the mats will be placed differently, and doesn't have the 45 deg cone shape.

With the method Micky used, it seem to me that maint will not be too difficult, as I can drain the waste regularly, and to shake the mats once a while for cleaning.

One drawback for me, is that I may not have a proper place for the UV later on if I switch to this design.

Yet to decide whether to use 2 drums (38" H, 23" W), or 3 (32" H, 18" W), any suggestions ?

thanks,

cs

(This post was edited by cslim on Oct 1, 2003, 10:38 AM)

cslim
Koi Lover

Oct 1, 2003, 11:11 AM

Post #15 of 33 (7501 views)
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Re: [mattloui] DIY Vortex filter from chemical drums [In reply to]	Can't Post

Matt,

Didn't read your post earlier while writing reply. Thanks for the vaulable advice, it seem to me the conical bottom is the key, and the hardest part for DIY vortex, I have checked on the price of custom make this, it's just too costly.

I have seem a concrete filter with similar design as what I mentioned, but, it's gravity feed and with conical bottom, the effect is really impressive, and the mats are so clean that you hardly need to clean, my guess is that the vortex effect enhanced the settlement, and the mats used is to block the waste (sometime you have floating s***) and maximize room for the good bac

It may sound stupid, I am relating anything I see in drum or cone shape to a possible DIY material for the filter, my wife couldn't take this, she said "why not just de-do your pond and have a one time pain, instead of thinking of this all the time !", well, I may do this one day, but part of the joy is the process of learning and making improvement each day, it's not just a matter of spending money...

Thanks,

cs

mattloui
Koi Lover

Oct 1, 2003, 12:45 PM

Post #16 of 33 (7496 views)
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Re: [cslim] DIY Vortex filter from chemical drums [In reply to]	Can't Post

Cslim, it's ok to see rubbish bins and drums as potential DIY vortex or TT. i do this all the time, even our own local authority(public bins) were not spared the attention. ( i thought they can be made excellant TT due to the top gap which should allow inflow of air.) anyway, the hobby is all about improving the filter, sometime in our own way.

about the vortex, i think micky's way can work as there is substancial space below his matting for the vortex action. Only issue is the flushing but it seems that micky is not having any problem with flushing -check his previous postings.

The DIY conical base( from the website) is not actually difficult to make if you understand the author correctly. He/she had actually given a mathematical formula to get the right size and angle for fitting purposes and i am going to try end of the year(during the school holidays). if you can, why not give a go. the materials the author is referring to may not be available here but alternatively you can use some aluminium foil found in most hardware shops. Initially i was lost as i don't know what he is refering to until i took a look at my office's lighting- the reflective mirror material on top of the flourescent light seems to be flexible enough for reshaping and is aluminium foil.(chong-take note).

looking forward to your DIY vortex.
CHEERS

(This post was edited by mattloui on Oct 1, 2003, 12:57 PM)

koipt
Koi Lover

Oct 1, 2003, 1:06 PM

Post #17 of 33 (7490 views)
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Re: [mattloui] DIY Vortex filter from chemical drums [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Matt and Cslim,

thanks for the information and experience shared.

Cslim - You said that yours is a pump-fed system. That means your pump is inside the pond. So how are you going to install your vortex? Chong was saying that having the pump before the vortex will minced up the faeces. Might degrade the performance of the vortex.

Matt: From your experience, what do you recommend ? I am facing some mechanical filter problem as my cotton/jap mats also cropped after 3 days. I also put a net onto the inlet of the filter, and this net is always filled with fine minced faeces. It sounds like there is nothing I can do much for my pump-fed system.

I also just installed a vegi filter. And the inlet to the filter has some 'foam fractionator' effect. Always see bubbles coming out of the vertical inlet pipe. Maybe that's why I noticed fine waste at the bottom of the vegi filter. Now I hv a problem with this.

Cheers,
Paul
--
Cheers,
Paul

cslim
Koi Lover

Oct 1, 2003, 1:36 PM

Post #18 of 33 (7487 views)
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Re: [koipt] DIY Vortex filter from chemical drums [In reply to]	Can't Post

Paul,

I am using a external pump, which suck the water from my pond to the filter placed above my pond, water return to pond via waterfall manner via the vegi filter and TT.

I am thinking of replacing the current mechanical filter (just a blue box with 4 small chamber) with the vortex, but the water will go thru the pump before the vortex, as you mentioned, this will minced up the faeces and degrade the performance of the vortex. And that's why I am interested in what Chong mentioned as he place the voxter before the pump, and I am wondering how this is being done, whether I can re-apply the same method in my case.

Do you still have Chong's email on the above ?

Thanks,

cs

koipt
Koi Lover

Oct 1, 2003, 1:41 PM

Post #19 of 33 (7486 views)
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Re: [cslim] DIY Vortex filter from chemical drums [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Lim,

looks like we have the same problem and questions.

I will wait for Chong reply when he is back from Australia.

WIll update you.

Btw, which model did you use for the external pump ? How big is your setup ?

I am in Singapore.

Cheers
Paul
--
Cheers,
Paul

cslim
Koi Lover

Oct 1, 2003, 2:03 PM

Post #20 of 33 (7482 views)
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Re: [koipt] DIY Vortex filter from chemical drums [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Paul,

I am using a DAB pump. If you are interested, you can take a look at the 'history' of my pond.

http://www.koi.com.my/cgi-bin/koiforum/gforum.cgi?post=14971;#14971

BTW, I am from JB but work in Singapore.

Thanks,

cs

mattloui
Koi Lover

Oct 1, 2003, 2:27 PM

Post #21 of 33 (7479 views)
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Re: [koipt] DIY Vortex filter from chemical drums [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Paul,

If the cotton wool/green mats clogged up within 3 days, it only mean that the mech filter is working fine. Debris get trapped and that's the purpose of the mec filter. In fact, for small system and especially pump-fed system, the use of cotton wool/fine material to trap is unavoidable unless your filter is big relative to your tank. You see, for large system, there is sufficent volume for debris to settle and in most cases, these chambers are equipped with excellant bottom drains. Here the use of brushes and japs mats are practical as it is not practical to wash chunks of cotton wool whenever it clogged. My experience was that brushes initially used as the first chamber was not efficient as the debris got trapped in the prefilter of the pump at the last chamber and the flow into the tank was reduced. i subsequently changed to the open cell foam (black colour) and jap mats as the barrier and the prefilter of the pump was never clogged again. A check at the rest of chambers revealed much less debris. Of course, every two or three days i have to take out these materails as they clogged but the filter as a whole is working. Now at least i only worry about the first chamber instead of the rest. So, its ok if they clogged -maybe you can change to the open cell foam as they are excellant filter. Of course, you could also flush everyday w/o washing the materials which would minimise the debris. Remember to use the up flow type and leave sufficient space for settlement bet. inlet from the tank and the foam.

troublesome but thats why i am exploring DIY vortex with cone chaped bottom for easy flushing and use my existing mec. chamber as the second chamber- maybe i only flush once a week with daily flushing of the vortex.

i thought i remember you saying in your previous posting that you are going to use gravityfed system-what happens?.

go for it - both gravity fed and DIY vortex - for experience purpose.
CHEERS

koipt
Koi Lover

Oct 1, 2003, 4:03 PM

Post #22 of 33 (7471 views)
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Re: [mattloui] DIY Vortex filter from chemical drums [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Matt,

thanks for the reply.

>> ... Remember to use the up flow type and leave sufficient space for
>> settlement between inlet from the tank and the foam.

Any differences between a down/up flow inlet ? I have a 5 chambers filter box.

Previously, I used the 1st & 2nd chambers for mechanical/settlement filtering. The 1st chamber is EMPTY while the 2nd is filled with cotton mats. Water flows downwards from the inlet into the EMPTY 1st chamber and flow upwards in the 2nd.

Lately, to increase the size of the bio-filter, I converted the 2nd chamber into bio-filter (Jap mats), which means that water from the inlet now flows downward into the 1st chamber filled with cotton mats.

>> ... can change to the open cell foam as they are excellant filter.

How do they look like ? Photos ?

>> i thought i remember you saying in your previous posting that you are going to use
>> gravity-fed system-what happens?

Yes, you did also offer me some advice. For now, I will enjoy the hobby until I move to another new house where I can re-design the entire setup from scratch.

>> go for it - both gravity fed and DIY vortex - for experience purpose.

Ya lor, too free over some weekends. So thinking to improve my technical skill. Hehe....no la actually trying to DIY the vortex to see its SPIRAL effects.

Cslim: Thanks for the info on the DAB pump.

Cheers,
Paul
--
Cheers,
Paul

mattloui
Koi Lover

Oct 2, 2003, 10:01 AM

Post #23 of 33 (7447 views)
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Re: [koipt] DIY Vortex filter from chemical drums [In reply to]	Can't Post

Paul, i suggest you maintain the two chambers as the mech filter as per your initial set-up. By upflow it means that the debris has time to settle and only part of the debris is trapped whislt the rest settle-i hope you undertsand what i mean. here, the upflow is actually your second chamber. use a buklkhead and create a bottom drain in the middle of the 2 chambers and you can flush.

for bio filtration, adopt the TT style. take a container and put about 1000 bio ballls and use a pump head of 2000 litres/hr. TT works even for small system. Mark is a guru in TT and his post on "hot topics" is most definitely hot. good luck with your DIY.
CHEERS

koipt
Koi Lover

Oct 2, 2003, 10:41 AM

Post #24 of 33 (7445 views)
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Re: [mattloui] DIY Vortex filter from chemical drums [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Matt,

actually with the previous setup (1/2 chambers are mechanical filter), I noticed a lot of debris settled at the bottom of the 2 chambers. The empty 1st chamber (down flow) is a bit wasted here.

TT ? Wanted to, but the sight of a 1metre tall container standing on the tank is just to 'much'. My wife will scream.... hehe.

In any case, thanks for your advice. I will keep you update abt my DIY progress. Or until then, maybe I 'know where I will be' in the next 2 months time, then only will I change to a 6x4x2.5 with bottom-drain, gravity -fed system.

Cheers,
Paul
--
Cheers,
Paul

fff
Koi Lover

Oct 9, 2003, 5:46 PM

Post #25 of 33 (7388 views)
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Re: [cwnchong] DIY Vortex filter from chemical drums [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hey where you got your "14"dia x 23" high 'TOYOGO' pail-like container c/w cover", I need one like that for my new filter. Had been searching for it high and low.

Kindly advise me. if possible call me @ 9093 1718

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