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DIY foam fractionators

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andyng
Koi Lover

Feb 20, 2003, 9:33 PM

Post #1 of 37 (9046 views)
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DIY foam fractionators	Can't Post

I found this site and plan to look into this. Would be great if I could get some comment.

DIY foam fractionators: http://home.netcom.com/~larry_l/foam_fract.htm

Andy Ng.

dttk
Senior Member

Feb 21, 2003, 11:17 AM

Post #2 of 37 (9013 views)
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Re: [andyng] DIY foam fractionators [In reply to]	Can't Post

Andy, great link. Now I'm sure alot of you guys without a TC will start experimenting with the DIY FF(Foam Fractionators). All hardware stalls will soon be doing brisk business selling 4" to 12" PVC pipes, T-joints, elbows and reducers Laugh

. It looks so tempting that I might wanna try it myself. So, good luck and anybody who has successfully constructed one which is working well, kindly share your expertise with us Sly

. Happy DIYing.
Always friendly :)

micky
Koi Lover

Feb 24, 2003, 9:19 AM

Post #3 of 37 (8974 views)
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Re: [andyng] DIY foam fractionators [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Andy
FFs are actually another method to skim proteins from the surface, right? From the link, it looks like FF generate foams for the proteins to cling on to, then the foams are removed. I wonder if removing means you have to do it manually, or is it channeled to the filter by suction? If there are lots of foam generated, wouldn't it look a bit messy? I have seen some commercially available skimmers that operate by floating just at the water level, and letting a certain amount of water seeps into it quietly. I wonder if this is better, except that a FF may generate more areation?? I wonder...
Regards, Micky

dttk
Senior Member

Feb 24, 2003, 9:39 AM

Post #4 of 37 (8972 views)
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Re: [micky] DIY foam fractionators [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Micky, allow me to step in. The FF can be placed beside the pond. Pond water is pumped into it thru an inlet. The protein rich foam flows out of the FF thru an outlet which either gets collected as fertilizer or flows directly into a drain. There is no manual removal of foam and the protein-free water flows back to the pond via gravity. It does not mess up the pond water surface. I've not seen the floating type. Without aeration to create bubbles, I can't imagine how a protein skimmer would work. Smile

Always friendly :)

(This post was edited by dttk on Feb 24, 2003, 9:43 AM)

keithkoi
Koi Lover

Feb 24, 2003, 10:03 AM

Post #5 of 37 (8967 views)
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Re: [micky] DIY foam fractionators [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi All,
Pls correct me if I'm wrong Smile

. Protein removal /foam fractional FF is different from surface skimmers SS. For SS (as it's name implies) merely removes floating debris (uneaten food, faeces and leaves) whereas protein removal / FF uses aeration and foam to extract protein from the pond water and foam needs to be discharged.
Not sure where the pond water should be taken from (surface, mid or bottom) for FF to be effective?
Cheers!, Keith

micky
Koi Lover

Feb 24, 2003, 10:04 AM

Post #6 of 37 (8966 views)
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Re: [dttk] DIY foam fractionators [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Dr Tan,
Thanks for explaining .. now I understand it better. I think the floating skimmer has a little pump that come with it. I did not look further into this because I wanted my DIY setup to be gadget free unless the gadget does not require electricity to power. In my DIY setup, I have created two water outlets that drops from the filter by gravity. The drops is slanted at 45degree and generate quite a lot of bubbles, it pushes the water to rotate around the tank even though the tank is almost a square shape. Perhaps this has eliminate the need for a skimmer? I wonder.
Regards, Micky

dttk
Senior Member

Feb 24, 2003, 11:05 AM

Post #7 of 37 (8959 views)
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Re: [keithkoi] DIY foam fractionators [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Keith, only water from the last stage of filtration should go into a FF. This would prevent debris accumulation in the FF. It will also make protein skimming more effective. The water from the last filter chamber is pumped into the FF either as a shoot-off from a T-joint or via a separate pump in the chamber. It is important that the water pressure in the inlet be sufficient to create a strong venturi or else the FF will not work efficiently. It is interesting to note that the TC works like the co-current FF. The counter-current FF on the other hand requires a strong air-stone as no venturi is required. Smile

Always friendly :)

dttk
Senior Member

Feb 24, 2003, 11:25 AM

Post #8 of 37 (8956 views)
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Re: [micky] DIY foam fractionators [In reply to]	Can't Post

Micky, by creating bubbles when the return water hits the tank water does not achieve the same effect as a FF because the foam remains in the system and is not removed. Since your's is a pump-fed system, you could incorporate a co-current-type of FF since this type does not require a venturi. All you need to do is channel one return to tank via the FF. The waste outlet from this FF would of course be drained away. You don't need an extra pump, just an airline for the airstone. I've attached the same drawing from website here for easy reference. Smile

Always friendly :)

Attachments:

Foam_Fraction.jpg (34.4 KB)

andyng
Koi Lover

Feb 25, 2003, 2:40 PM

Post #9 of 37 (8931 views)
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Re: [dttk] DIY foam fractionators [In reply to]	Can't Post

Doc,

After cleaning out my filter now my water is green but I still continue to feed pretty heavy. I have decided to try out the DIY FF this few days and will see if there are bubbles. Will post results soon else I may have to get a real one.

Wish me luck.

Andy Ng

dttk
Senior Member

Feb 25, 2003, 2:58 PM

Post #10 of 37 (8930 views)
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Re: [andyng] DIY foam fractionators [In reply to]	Can't Post

Andy, it's quite normal to get some green water after a thorough filter clean out. Just give it some time and your water should turn crystal clear again. Sure you can construct the FF to improve water quality. MHLim also constructed one recently and hope to get some feedback from him. Goodluck. Smile

Always friendly :)

micky
Koi Lover

Feb 25, 2003, 3:29 PM

Post #11 of 37 (8929 views)
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Re: [dttk] DIY foam fractionators [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Doc
Sorry I was away for a while. I understand it a little better now, may try to construct one during the weekend. Since "foam" was mentioned a few times, are you refering to having a FF deliberately generating foam, or is the presence of foam a signal for need of a FF?. Hope I do not sound confused. If this is the case, I do not have any foam in my pond or FG, so is there a need for a FF? Pray tell ... Smile

Regards, Micky

mattloui
Koi Lover

Feb 25, 2003, 6:09 PM

Post #12 of 37 (8920 views)
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Re: [micky] DIY foam fractionators [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks Micky, i was just about to ask on the need of a FF. In my case, since it is only a FG, all foams are pick up by my surface skimmer. Further, TT seems to operate well in removing the foam. Is that a need in this case. BTW, all the drawings sure look interesting, maybe do one just for fun.

On a serious note, Dttk mentioned on the brown residue picked up by turbo cleaner. Are these harmful to the koi or are we just talking about clarity of the water.
CHEERS

dttk
Senior Member

Feb 25, 2003, 8:52 PM

Post #13 of 37 (8917 views)
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Re: [micky] DIY foam fractionators [In reply to]	Can't Post

Micky/Matt, foam in tank water means high DOC or protein. A FF or TC will remove it. Bubbles in FF burst to form a foamy brown liquid which is concentrated DOC or protein which is discharged or used as fertilizer. TT only reduces nitrates not protein. Smile

Always friendly :)

mhlim
Koi Lover

Feb 26, 2003, 9:50 PM

Post #14 of 37 (8888 views)
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Re: [dttk] DIY foam fractionators [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Doc,
Too bad my DIY foam fractionator did not work satisfactorily to my expectation Unsure

.

My construction was from 2" & 4" pvc pipe and fittings. Total height 5 ft. The FF (co-current) was placed in the pond because I made use of the existing venturi. The bubbles that came out of the waste pipe were clear and clean. The FF was removed after a few hours because it was unsightly apart from being a dangerous obstacle to the kois.

I guess the possible reasons for my failure might be :-
1. the venturi was not strong enough. In fact I have added an air stone in the 4" pipe to create additional bubbles
2. absence of capillary tubes in the foam remover column to burst the bubbles

Hope some other members can be more successful in their constructions.

Cheers.

andyng
Koi Lover

Feb 26, 2003, 10:10 PM

Post #15 of 37 (8884 views)
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Re: [mhlim] DIY foam fractionators [In reply to]	Can't Post

Mr. Lim,

I was planning to start a Counter Current version this weekend. I would like to know the "not satisfactorily" could you elaborate it abit. What are your expectation, is there any bubble. Did you installed it in your big pond. As I know you already have a commercial TT running so the water now in your pond might be too clean hence no bubble.

As the cost is low and I am one of those crazy DIYer I might give it a shot this weekend. Wish me luck.

Andy Ng.

newgen
Koi Lover

Feb 26, 2003, 10:29 PM

Post #16 of 37 (8882 views)
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Re: [andyng] DIY foam fractionators [In reply to]	Can't Post

Andy!
Wish you luck!

I'm thinking of DIY 1 of it for my tank too! So hope to hear from you what's the result of it!

Cheers!
John

dttk
Senior Member

Feb 27, 2003, 10:54 AM

Post #17 of 37 (8870 views)
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Re: [mhlim] DIY foam fractionators [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Lim, thanks for sharing your experience with us. So, it's not so straight forward afterall. Quite a number of things need to be considered. I think a counter-current FF is easier to construct but you need air supply which you may get from a separate airpump or better still from existing Hiblow if there is any more air pressure to spare. Here there is no need to use a venturi which may be quite a hazzle to construct. Even if you succeed in making one, and placing it above the pond, it is not easily supported and also looks unsightly. Alot of work will have to be put in to conceal it, the inlet and outlet pipings, etc. You are right about one observation, the absence of capillary tubes to assist the bubbles to rise to the top and burst. Perhaps someone in the forum could DIY one set of tubes to be attached to the bubbles outlet. Obviously the design of the TurboCleaner has evolved from the shortcomings of these early and basic FFs. That's why it's just plug and play. Smile

Always friendly :)

(This post was edited by dttk on Feb 27, 2003, 2:06 PM)

cgad
Koi Lover

Feb 27, 2003, 1:55 PM

Post #18 of 37 (8854 views)
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Re: [dttk] DIY foam fractionators [In reply to]	Can't Post

I have read some articles on the net and one can convert a powerhead or a pump to produce a reasonable venturi effect by connecting one end of an airline just before the impeller and the other end above the water surface.One has to ensure that the airline is secure and doesn't get caught by the blades. I have used this on an Eheim1060 and Aquaclear 802 power head with pretty good results.My observation is its more powerful than using the venturi valve originally provided with the powerhead.

dttk
Senior Member

Feb 27, 2003, 2:12 PM

Post #19 of 37 (8851 views)
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Re: [cgad] DIY foam fractionators [In reply to]	Can't Post

cgad, welcome to the forum. Thanks for sharing your experience and the info with us Smile

. How long have you kept koi and how is your system like? Smile

Always friendly :)

slim
Koi Lover

Feb 27, 2003, 6:41 PM

Post #20 of 37 (8836 views)
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Re: [dttk] DIY foam fractionators [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Guys,

After our recent visit to Mr.Lim pond and the demo and explanation on the TC by Mr.Lim and Dr.Tan I was very eager to DIY a TC. However, todate I have not done it yet. Blush

.

I am trying to use my 4' bottom drain stand pipe as a foam protein removal. Currently, i have diverted some air from the Hiblow to let it areate in the stand pipe to "draw" the waste from the bottom drain. However the air bubbles are not tiny enough (did not use any air stone, just drilled some tiny holes into the PVC pipe) but I can still see some brownish stained accumulating in the internal wall of the stand pipe. I will try to put more air stones to create more foam and to make it overflow from the stand pipe. My concern is, even if it work, it may not be a good system as the water in the stand pipe is not recirculating through the pond, only the water in the stand pipe and bottom drain are being cleared of the protein!

pls comment.

Smile

mhlim
Koi Lover

Feb 27, 2003, 7:27 PM

Post #21 of 37 (8834 views)
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Re: [andyng] DIY foam fractionators [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Andy,

The bubbles that came out of the waste pipe were clear and clean. They just looked like clean air bubbles to me unlike the foam that is produced in the commercial TC. Those bubbles that burst (in commercial TC) produce brownish foam and also some greensih algae. This is the reason I said that my DIY FF was not up to expectations.

Well I will try to DIY a counter current FF using the same pipes and fittings if I have the time this weekend. Hope the results can be better.

You are correct about the low cost in DIY stuff. I spent about RM25 in my construction. Luckily I can make use of the same materials to construct the counter current version.

All the best to you in your coming undertaking this weekend Smile

.

Cheers.

dttk
Senior Member

Feb 27, 2003, 8:08 PM

Post #22 of 37 (8830 views)
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Re: [slim] DIY foam fractionators [In reply to]	Can't Post

SLim, you're quite right. You're in fact drawing in some water from the pond bottom into the bottom drain and in the process moving some waste particles towards the standpipe. How much is the overflow from the standpipe will depend on how strong the aeration. Your's can be compared to the co-current type of FF. The only difference is there is no outlet for the clean water. Because of this you'll be cleaning the same water over and over again. Smile

Always friendly :)

slim
Koi Lover

Feb 28, 2003, 2:09 PM

Post #23 of 37 (8808 views)
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Re: [dttk] DIY foam fractionators [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks Doc,

I guess I will wait for the result of MHLim and Andy DIY FF rather than using the standpipe as FF.

Best Regards

slim Smile

cgad
Koi Lover

Feb 28, 2003, 5:15 PM

Post #24 of 37 (8801 views)
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Re: [dttk] DIY foam fractionators [In reply to]	Can't Post

TQ dttk for your warm welcome. To be honest I have been visiting Koi Forum for a while.
Im mainly into goldfish but have kept some koi for the past 18 mths. Started keeping them in a blue fibre tub with a 38 gallon dustbin used as an upflow filter but as they grew maintaining water became a hassle.
Recently had a small concrete pond built(10' x 8' x 2') which is not appropriate for koi but due to physical constraints and my eventual intention is to use it for my goldfish.Pond is still new(1 mth) but fortunately have not had any noticeable green water algae bloom.(Walls and bottom though starting to get brownish green growth.
Pond has a 4 chamber filter fed by a bottom drain. 1st and 2nd chamber with green matting ,3rd with bio-ring and diy protein skimmer and 4th has circulation pump.
Ive used airline for venturi in my goldfish and koi fibre ponds as well as for additional aeration purposes.
This forum has been very informative and hope to gain from participants.

dttk
Senior Member

Mar 1, 2003, 10:15 AM

Post #25 of 37 (8784 views)
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Re: [cgad] DIY foam fractionators [In reply to]	Can't Post

cgad, thanks for the info. A pond that size is a luxury for the goldfish. Furthermore, it comes with a large filter and protein skimmer too Smile

. Do let us know how you incorporate a DIY protein skimmer into the 3rd chamber before the pump? Smile

This may provide some idea us to try in future. Thanks! Smile

Always friendly :)

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