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vortex drains too fast.

kolipo
Koi Lover

Jul 4, 2004, 5:27 AM

Post #1 of 11 (3119 views)
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vortex drains too fast.	Can't Post

I just set up my pond with a retro bottom drain going to a DIY vortex filter (55 gal drum method) via 2 inch pipe. It is siphon fed and all lines to the vortex are well below water level. Its a airless system so thats not my problem. My problem is my pump sucks the water out of the vortex way too fast. Its like a drunk god with his last beer and a straw! so my question is how do I maximise my pump flow yet still let the vortex do its thing but using the same bottom drain and plumming? My fish are tierd of going back and forth to the quarintine bin! My bottom drain is first gravity fed via siphon to the vortex than into the priming pot and back to the pond oh toss a skippy filter in there too im working on that though. any input would be greatfully appreciated:) help me divert water to the pump and back into the pond but let the filter work too? ughh Oh ya I also have the output from the pump shut down right now so only the crapper tube on the bottom of the vortex tank is working right now becoase the top of the vortex is dry due to the thirsty pump god, and its still not keeping up with the flow so its way shut down on the output side of the pump. I like ball valves but i just need to know where to put them. so far they are everywhere:) expandability is no problem! ugh:)
p.s. my bottom drain is 2 inches and my pump inlet is 2 inches. I just didnt see it feasable to put a 3 inch bulkhead fitting in a 55 gal drum becoase the drum is round and the fittings are flat.
p.s #2 or another question that is. will a siphon fed vortex have enough power to pull water through a spring loaded check valve?
thanks again for any input!:)

mike c
Koi Kichi

Jul 4, 2004, 7:48 AM

Post #2 of 11 (3112 views)
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Re: [kolipo] vortex drains too fast. [In reply to]	Can't Post

let me just say this through experience. a 2" pipe gravity fed ... can only support about 450-700 gph.
as i am sure your pump is way bigger than that, the 2" pipe naturally cant cope with the other 2" pipe that is pump fed.

i was not able to solve mine, because i have lost the will to make changes since my pond works anyway.

i have some theories tho ...
you dont want a 3" or 4" pipe
if a 2" pipe feeds 450-700
try adding more 2" pipes that will more than equal your pump gph

theory 2.
add some more barrels, that would also mean more diy bottom drains and pipes (but try setting up more pipes, or bigger pipes) then make the pump suck from both the barrels.

these are only theories tho

____________________________________

If you know how it works, you'll know how to fix it

kolipo
Koi Lover

Jul 4, 2004, 9:04 AM

Post #3 of 11 (3108 views)
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Re: [aragorn] vortex drains too fast. [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thats exactly what I was trying to avoid. My pond is totally cemented in and Just went through the side of the pond with a diamond saw and a chisel. It was a huge job and im not going through that again. I guess im going to have to go through a trial and error plumming extravaganza.
My newest idea is to run a pipe up and over the wall of the pond and back in. This will be connected after the vortex via a "T" fitting and into the priming pot the only thing here is how to you prime the hose over the wall becoase the air bubble will just stay there on top of the rim of the pond? Ive tried this before, tunneling through the wall of the pond, and I just couldnt get it to prime.
Going back to the the vortex though, when a vortex is working does it look like a toilet bowl when its flowing? I guess my question is it even worth having a vortex at such a low flow rate that the 2 " pipe provides.
Anyway thanks for your input You and the others here have tought me so much useful knowledge and it is greatly appreciated !!!If anyone else has a weird idea (I think thats what I need at this point) please chime in on the subject. And if I find a fix Ill let you know. Thanks again for your time It Is much needed. :)

(This post was edited by kolipo on Jul 4, 2004, 9:12 AM)

goldy
Koi Lover

Jul 4, 2004, 7:18 PM

Post #4 of 11 (3097 views)
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Re: [kolipo] vortex drains too fast. [In reply to]	Can't Post

hi kolipo
if your pump is self primeing your idea would work , if your not shure dont try as some pumps are lubricated by water and will be ruined if run dry,
if you put a one way valve on the pipe going over the pond wall , and backfill the pumping system [ also block the pipe going into vortex from the pump ] this would prime the pipe Wink

a slide / ball valve would be needed on the pipe going over the pond wall to ballance the flow,
this is presuming the extra pipe is going to suction feed and not into vortex,
hope this helps
goldy

kolipo
Koi Lover

Jul 6, 2004, 10:50 AM

Post #5 of 11 (3046 views)
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Re: [goldy] vortex drains too fast. [In reply to]	Can't Post

my external pump is not self priming. I have a "value flow cimmeron" bought at az ponds for a value of 130 bucks." (shamless plug sorry) It delivers 3500 gph at 0 head but man if that thing aint primed your lookin at burn out city. I also bought a tetra bottom retrofit drain. Hence the 2 inch pipe problem. Id never trust the manufacture for a pipe size again cause if I would have gone to a 4 inch it would probably be dandy now?? shgeesh! any more opinions???? help!!!! Pirate

cwnchong
Member

Jul 11, 2004, 12:54 AM

Post #6 of 11 (2998 views)
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Re: [kolipo] vortex drains too fast. [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Kolipo,
I am not sure whether I read your problem right. anyway I try to share my experience. As I see it, there are 2 ways to solve your problem without using a check valve.

1st suggestion:

If possible seal your 55 gal drum to create an air-tight vortex just like the one I am currently using. In this method, yr pump creates a vacuum inside the drum, thus sucks in the pond water via the bottom drain, regardless of it size.

2nd suggestion:

If possible, install another 2" inlet bulkhead. So that you have 2 -2" inlet instead of 1. This method might not work if your pump is far too strong and moreover pump suction do fluctuates at times.

My first suggestion is a sure work solution.

I hope it helps

Cheers

kolipo
Koi Lover

Jul 11, 2004, 10:55 AM

Post #7 of 11 (2969 views)
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Re: [cwnchong] vortex drains too fast. [In reply to]	Can't Post

ok folks im going with the sealed container! Im going to0 use a pickle barrel. It has a screw on lid so I can probably pipe dope the threads enough to create a suction atmosphere. Ill get back to you on the situation. My other thought was too fill the barrel with lava rock and call it a day but i really want to get rid of heavy solids so ill try the vacume situation. thanks for the responses!!! you know you kinda keep me going on this project its really neat I actually have patience waiting for the responses before proceeding with the project. thanks again folks :)

applemuncher
Koi Lover

Jul 16, 2004, 10:20 PM

Post #8 of 11 (2904 views)
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Re: [kolipo] vortex drains too fast. [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi kolipo - have you consider these solutions: 1) change your pump to a lower capacity 2) install a T from the pump outlet and divert part of water back to vortex 3) increase the rate of flow into the filter as suggested by cwnchong or increase size of pipe inlet 4) convert to pump fed, raise the filter and let the water drop back to pond naturally, if pump is too fast going in then make a T to divert part of water back to pond, never use a ball-valve to impede the pump as it wears it down faster. Whatever the solution, the inflow has to balance with the outflow. Goodluck!

(This post was edited by applemuncher on Jul 16, 2004, 10:25 PM)

BoB/335
Koi Lover

Sep 9, 2004, 7:16 AM

Post #9 of 11 (2556 views)
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Re: [applemuncher] vortex drains too fast. [In reply to]	Can't Post

I've read that you need 2X the inlet to outlet on any gravity fed system.

mike c
Koi Kichi

Sep 9, 2004, 5:23 PM

Post #10 of 11 (2535 views)
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Re: [BoB/335] vortex drains too fast. [In reply to]	Can't Post

i dont think the 2x rule applies to all situations

i have a 1/2" pipe pump fed feeding a 3 barrel series ... i used a 2" pipe for the outputs, and the pump overflows the barrels ... it really depends on the amount of pipe length

____________________________________

If you know how it works, you'll know how to fix it

BoB/335
Koi Lover

Sep 11, 2004, 7:12 PM

Post #11 of 11 (2463 views)
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Re: [aragorn] vortex drains too fast. [In reply to]	Can't Post

Pump fed vs. gravity fed is like comparing apples to oranges.

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