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KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants?

 




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pklow
User

Dec 27, 2002, 2:58 PM

Post #1 of 38 (94204 views)
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KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants? Can't Post

Dear All Experts,

I have been visiting this site for a couples of month before daring to ask any question (afraid that it might be a stupid one Blush). I always find koi pond looks more beautiful with water plants inside, and the koi will feel happier with it too. However, after introducing the plants for 2 weeks, my kois seems to love playing with the plants, such as swimming through them or squeeze into them (could it be skin disease that make them itchy and so rub against the plant?), pulling it or even feel like going to uproot them Mad.

I put the plant with soil into the pot and then cover the soil with stones (1~2 inch diameter) up to 2 inches depth, but my kois found to be removing the stones from the pot from time to time!!! Could it be the koi nature to find food from the soil? (as we know they are all hog).

Please help if there is anything I could do to keep the plants in the pond...before I give up Unsure.


KevKoi
Koi Kichi


Dec 28, 2002, 4:12 AM

Post #2 of 38 (94122 views)
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Re: [pklow] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants? [In reply to] Can't Post

He he he..... frm my experience, my kois just won't leave my plants alone. I've seen ppl with large kois and water lilies in the same pond, but I've no clue how they mananged that. My kois took the $20 pot of lily I put in as an expensive salad bowl. Lily gone in a day.

By nature, koi like to muck around in the mud looking for a morsel or something in the dirt. It is precisely because of this nature that kois/carp have muddied up the rivers they have been introduced in Australia and New Zealand.

Soil and koi ponds don't mix.

Soil also has a tendency to compact down over time in water and go anaerobic at the bottom, turning the pot of soil into a ticking time bomb of bacteria. BAd bugs may be lurking in the soil. I plant my plants in vege filters without the use of soil (almost like hydrophonics). Good luck with your planting...



pklow
User

Dec 28, 2002, 7:43 AM

Post #3 of 38 (94118 views)
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Re: [KevKoi] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants? [In reply to] Can't Post

KevKoi,

You are damn right! I really envy how others manage to do that - Koi with Plant together Mad! Maybe be a yam tree which could survive without soil and with a strong trunk is what I should consider next Wink. Anyway, really appreciate your detail explanation and advice. Thousand Thanks!

Hi All,

If anyone happen to have come across this before with good solution, please share your valuable experience.


KevKoi
Koi Kichi


Dec 28, 2002, 3:44 PM

Post #4 of 38 (94110 views)
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Re: [pklow] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've seen ppl put a wire mesh around the lily plant in the pond to keep the kois frm the lilies.... but personally I think the wire mesh is ugly. Ur yam trees won't survive the kois either... been there, done that. Wink


pklow
User

Dec 28, 2002, 5:41 PM

Post #5 of 38 (94107 views)
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Re: [KevKoi] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants? [In reply to] Can't Post

Crazy how do they do that? So many pond picture in this forum found with water lily, maybe I should consult them one by one Unsure.


crazoo
User

Dec 28, 2002, 8:19 PM

Post #6 of 38 (94103 views)
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Re: [pklow] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants? [In reply to] Can't Post

ive tried the water lily too, and yup just one day. probably not even one whole day... Tongue


jendre
Novice

Dec 29, 2002, 6:36 AM

Post #7 of 38 (94097 views)
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Re: [KevKoi] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants? [In reply to] Can't Post

KevKoi wrote : "Soil and koi ponds don't mix."

But i've just wondering, how the kois survive in the mud ponds in Japan ?
I've heard, the best media to keep "top quality koi" is in a mud pond, just like at Shintaro Koi Farm.

Also I've just added a bunch of water hyacynth, they float beatifully on the surface... sor 4 days, then they started to sink one by one, and I found so many debris from the plant's roots. And I think I saw a koi of mine bite and dragged a small piece of the roots.

The darn kois, they are just like the gauls (Asterix and Obelix).
"Jendre"


KevKoi
Koi Kichi


Dec 30, 2002, 5:26 AM

Post #8 of 38 (94084 views)
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Re: [jendre] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants? [In reply to] Can't Post

Admittedly the best koi come from mud ponds, but consider the size of mud ponds and the stocking densities they stock them at. We cram as many kois as we can into relatively puny ponds. The mud ponds may be 30m x 30m x 10ft deep and only houses 8-10 jumbo kois. Also the ponds are drained out yearly while any small amount of soil we have in pots in the pond stay almost permanantly submerged and will go anaerobic with time. I've dug up a pot of water plant which the soil had been submerged underwater for a few years. The pong from the soil nearly knocked me over.... now I know how rotten egg smells like LaughLaugh.

It's all about trying to give as little opportunitiy for anaerobic bacteria to colonise your little confined koi pond, to lesson the chances of disease. (That's why I don't subscribe to using large amounts of coral chips as bio filtration media.). While the soil in the mud ponds may release minerals which enhance your koi, in the confined space of a concrete pond, these minerals can be replenished with bentonite clay additives. So, in my honest opinion, if you're dead serious about your koi, then soil and ponds don't quite mix....


DocRodConrad
User

Jan 1, 2003, 4:10 AM

Post #9 of 38 (94062 views)
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No problem here except in spawning season [In reply to] Can't Post

The only time we have a real problem with keeping large koi together with plants is during "spawning" when the wild sex dance of these large fish tear up our lilies. But he lilies recover quickly from the damage.

We do not use soil with our lilies. We use soilless planting media, rocks, and fertilizer tablets with tropical lilies.



If you would like to look at some pictures of our ponding hobby, please do the following:

click up www.picturestage.com

sign is as a guest using the

User name: DocRodConrad

Password: Koi.my

You can click up two picture albums of digital pictures of our ponding hobby, showing large koi and tropical water lilies together.
Roddy Conrad, Charleston, WV, USA

(This post was edited by DocRodConrad on Jan 1, 2003, 4:19 AM)


koifun
Veteran


Jan 1, 2003, 5:33 AM

Post #10 of 38 (94059 views)
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Re: [DocRodConrad] No problem here except in spawning season [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi, Doc

Have seen your koi pond with the beautiful lilies and kois. Real amazing eyes openning for me !!

Thanks for the initiative and wish you and your family a happy New Year.




  • "Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. - Euripides"
  • CoolSmileTongueSmile


    kbsim
    Novice

    Jan 2, 2003, 5:01 AM

    Post #11 of 38 (94039 views)
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    Re: [DocRodConrad] No problem here except in spawning season [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi Doc,

    Have seen your photos, very impressive. Can you please tell me what fertilizer tablets do you use and how often.

    Danny


    DocRodConrad
    User

    Jan 2, 2003, 6:21 AM

    Post #12 of 38 (94031 views)
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    fertilizer tablets [In reply to] Can't Post

    I use a "large" fertilizer tablet, that weighs 22 grams on my gram balance, which is made by the Agriform company. I put 3 or 4 of them in every tropical lily about once a month or so.

    The koi DO eat on the plants, but only the leaves. And the leaves grow so fast that the plant does okay.

    I keep enough rocks in the pot that the koi cannot easily get to the roots. If they eat the roots, the plant will die.
    Roddy Conrad, Charleston, WV, USA


    HWONG
    Veteran

    Jan 2, 2003, 10:41 AM

    Post #13 of 38 (94020 views)
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    Re: [DocRodConrad] fertilizer tablets [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi Doc,

    Just curious. Wouldn't the fertiliser tablet provide nutrient to the algae? If not how it is so? Thks n Rgds.


    pklow
    User

    Jan 2, 2003, 12:49 PM

    Post #14 of 38 (94015 views)
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    Doc's Valuable Advice [In reply to] Can't Post

    Dear All,

    Just would like to share with you all what Doc has taught me which he quotes as below (Doc, I hope you don't mind I share this with others Tongue):

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    First, I do not use any soil with my water plants which go into my koi ponds. I use coconut fiber mat, with a bound layer to keep it whole, for the roots. Two layers of the coconut fiber mat are used. A slit is cut into this fiber mat with scissors to put the roots through of the plant. Then the surface of the plant is covered with large, flat rocks, except, of course, the small area where the plant comes through from the roots. Then the entire top layer is covered with what we call "river rock", meaning medium sized rocks.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    KevKoi,

    Maybe you should try again if you were previously spook by the smell of the soil Sly.


    DocRodConrad
    User

    Jan 2, 2003, 2:28 PM

    Post #15 of 38 (94010 views)
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    comments [In reply to] Can't Post

    A few more comments. Do not use "loose" soilless potting media, it has to be in a mat with a side with fabric. In the USA there are plenty of firms that sell that item.

    I never have a problem with stringy algae. But that is entirely another subject, worthy of its own discussion thread. I will write something on this later, right now it is 6:28 AM, need to have some breakfast and go to work!
    Roddy Conrad, Charleston, WV, USA


    KevKoi
    Koi Kichi


    Jan 3, 2003, 4:44 AM

    Post #16 of 38 (94000 views)
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    Re: [pklow] Doc's Valuable Advice [In reply to] Can't Post

    I have enough lilies as it is in my separate 2M x 1.5M x 0.5M deep lily pond. The lilies and lotus going mad there with soil and compost mix (no kois).... I don't think I'll plant in the pond.... Need plant maintenance like trimming dead leaves and splitting the tuber for propagation..... Not an easy job to waddle in to the pond to do all that. The pond bottom is very slippery, and deep plus the old lady (me mom) has to do all this by herself while I'm in Australia and dad in China!

    U can go ahead and try it and keep us updated on the results... Wink


    pklow
    User

    Jan 3, 2003, 12:52 PM

    Post #17 of 38 (93985 views)
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    Re: [KevKoi] Doc's Valuable Advice [In reply to] Can't Post

    OK Kevin, you got your point. I am exactly in the same situation like yours but probably worse!!! My mum was the one who feedback the condition of my pond / koi / plant Crazy since I spend most of my time in Taiwan and China. As a matter of fact, I am still in Taiwan right now and really miss my kois even though they are still new to me Unsure. Anyway, thanks for your advice.


    kbsim
    Novice

    Jan 4, 2003, 11:19 AM

    Post #18 of 38 (93965 views)
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    Re: [DocRodConrad] fertilizer tablets [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi Doc,

    Could not find Agriform fertilizer tablets in Brunei. What is Agriform fertilizer? If my floating water plants are turning yellow, presume not enough fertilizer, can I throw Agriform fertilizer tablets into the pond? Will it harm the fishes?

    Regards, Danny


    DocRodConrad
    User

    Jan 5, 2003, 4:14 AM

    Post #19 of 38 (93954 views)
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    Agriform tablet specs [In reply to] Can't Post

    The 21 gram Agriform brand fertilizer tablets specifications are found here:



    http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/...log_Page.asp?ID=1618#



    The standard description of the tablet is a 20/10/5 formula, plus trace nutrients. Meaning 20% nitrogen, 10% potash, 5% potassium.



    Any similiar brand should work well.
    Roddy Conrad, Charleston, WV, USA


    dob
    Novice

    Apr 1, 2003, 9:24 PM

    Post #20 of 38 (93659 views)
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    Re: [DocRodConrad] Agriform tablet specs [In reply to] Can't Post

    I too experienced these plant problems. I have a wire cylinder around my lilly that comes to just under the surface and noticed the koi would actually jump out of the water and into this 'basket' just to get to the plant. The plant gets an nibble every once and a while but is still going strong. I also had a bunch of hyacinth that the koi seem to love to munch. these are hardy enough that the little bits become new plants though. It's a balance in my pond between plants and fish. I only have about 5 Koi so they can't do too much damage.

    In my new pond I'm going to make a bog and plant section that feeds into the pond but the fish can't get to it. I really need to get cracking on my new pond.


    cwnchong
    Koi Kichi

    Apr 2, 2003, 11:55 AM

    Post #21 of 38 (93631 views)
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    Re: [dob] Agriform tablet specs [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi Dob,
    There are some forum members experience keeping plants in koi ponds quite successfully. They were saying that the plant has to reside in the pond before the fish are introduced. It sound like if the koi are renting the premises they will not do any renovation to their home. The members even shown some pictures in some of their threads too. Look up for the previous threads and they will be happy to give some additional advice.
    Since u are having a new pond why not give it a shot by introducing the plant first. If it works all the better.
    Have a nice day.


    Benson_ken
    Novice

    Apr 30, 2003, 6:23 PM

    Post #22 of 38 (93306 views)
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    Re: [pklow] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants? [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hello to all,

    I have a relatively new pond. It is 3 years old.

    The pond has a stream, water fall and two cascading ponds with a submersable pump in the bottom pond.

    The middle pool has about 800 gallons with 7 Koi from 1 to 3 years old. The pond uses plants and the stream for filtration with the help of Microbe Lift. The middle pool, with the Koi, has three lilies in perforated baskets topped with rock, horn wart, penny wart, iris and lemon grass. The bottom of the ponds are lined with river rock that anchors the horn wart.

    The bottom pond has some lilies and lemon grass. The water quality is good with the help of 20% water change every 2 weeks. We get 8 months of rain and 40 degree F winter average temperatures.

    So far all is well with the plants and fish. The largest fish is 12 inches long.

    The Bulk of the filtering work is done by trench in the stream bed that is filled with a plant called parrot feather. It is a very aggressive plant with fast growing roots. Other plants help along the stream also. The trench gets wet vacuumed out twice per year.

    Regards,

    Benson


    dttk
    Veteran

    Apr 30, 2003, 7:02 PM

    Post #23 of 38 (93303 views)
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    Re: [Benson_ken] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants? [In reply to] Can't Post

    Benson, good to know that your koi are living in harmony with your plants Smile. Any chance for a picture of your beautiful pond and landscape? Smile I have a vege filter too but the koi can't get at the plants. Sly
    Always friendly :)


    Benson_ken
    Novice

    Apr 30, 2003, 7:45 PM

    Post #24 of 38 (93299 views)
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    Re: [dttk] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants? [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi dttk,

    I have several that I will be happy to send tomorrow. It has become an environment rich with fish, plants,birds, insects and frogs. Sometimes the frogs are too noisy at night.



    Regards,

    Benson


    Benson_ken
    Novice

    Apr 30, 2003, 11:24 PM

    Post #25 of 38 (93297 views)
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    Re: [dttk] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants? [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hello dttk,

    I found several pictures on cd to show several views at various times last summer and spring. Bare with the amiture photography. The veggi filter does not show well due to the lighting and it was not the photo subject. Ops! How do I attach the jpeg files?


    Regards,

    Benson

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