Home: KOI Talk: General Discussion:
KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants?



pklow
User

Dec 27, 2002, 1:58 PM


Views: 97617
KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants?

Dear All Experts,

I have been visiting this site for a couples of month before daring to ask any question (afraid that it might be a stupid one Blush). I always find koi pond looks more beautiful with water plants inside, and the koi will feel happier with it too. However, after introducing the plants for 2 weeks, my kois seems to love playing with the plants, such as swimming through them or squeeze into them (could it be skin disease that make them itchy and so rub against the plant?), pulling it or even feel like going to uproot them Mad.

I put the plant with soil into the pot and then cover the soil with stones (1~2 inch diameter) up to 2 inches depth, but my kois found to be removing the stones from the pot from time to time!!! Could it be the koi nature to find food from the soil? (as we know they are all hog).

Please help if there is anything I could do to keep the plants in the pond...before I give up Unsure.


KevKoi
Koi Kichi


Dec 28, 2002, 3:12 AM


Views: 97535
Re: [pklow] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants?

He he he..... frm my experience, my kois just won't leave my plants alone. I've seen ppl with large kois and water lilies in the same pond, but I've no clue how they mananged that. My kois took the $20 pot of lily I put in as an expensive salad bowl. Lily gone in a day.

By nature, koi like to muck around in the mud looking for a morsel or something in the dirt. It is precisely because of this nature that kois/carp have muddied up the rivers they have been introduced in Australia and New Zealand.

Soil and koi ponds don't mix.

Soil also has a tendency to compact down over time in water and go anaerobic at the bottom, turning the pot of soil into a ticking time bomb of bacteria. BAd bugs may be lurking in the soil. I plant my plants in vege filters without the use of soil (almost like hydrophonics). Good luck with your planting...



pklow
User

Dec 28, 2002, 6:43 AM


Views: 97531
Re: [KevKoi] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants?

KevKoi,

You are damn right! I really envy how others manage to do that - Koi with Plant together Mad! Maybe be a yam tree which could survive without soil and with a strong trunk is what I should consider next Wink. Anyway, really appreciate your detail explanation and advice. Thousand Thanks!

Hi All,

If anyone happen to have come across this before with good solution, please share your valuable experience.


KevKoi
Koi Kichi


Dec 28, 2002, 2:44 PM


Views: 97523
Re: [pklow] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants?

I've seen ppl put a wire mesh around the lily plant in the pond to keep the kois frm the lilies.... but personally I think the wire mesh is ugly. Ur yam trees won't survive the kois either... been there, done that. Wink


pklow
User

Dec 28, 2002, 4:41 PM


Views: 97520
Re: [KevKoi] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants?

Crazy how do they do that? So many pond picture in this forum found with water lily, maybe I should consult them one by one Unsure.


crazoo
User

Dec 28, 2002, 7:19 PM


Views: 97516
Re: [pklow] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants?

ive tried the water lily too, and yup just one day. probably not even one whole day... Tongue


jendre
Novice

Dec 29, 2002, 5:36 AM


Views: 97510
Re: [KevKoi] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants?

KevKoi wrote : "Soil and koi ponds don't mix."

But i've just wondering, how the kois survive in the mud ponds in Japan ?
I've heard, the best media to keep "top quality koi" is in a mud pond, just like at Shintaro Koi Farm.

Also I've just added a bunch of water hyacynth, they float beatifully on the surface... sor 4 days, then they started to sink one by one, and I found so many debris from the plant's roots. And I think I saw a koi of mine bite and dragged a small piece of the roots.

The darn kois, they are just like the gauls (Asterix and Obelix).
"Jendre"


KevKoi
Koi Kichi


Dec 30, 2002, 4:26 AM


Views: 97497
Re: [jendre] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants?

Admittedly the best koi come from mud ponds, but consider the size of mud ponds and the stocking densities they stock them at. We cram as many kois as we can into relatively puny ponds. The mud ponds may be 30m x 30m x 10ft deep and only houses 8-10 jumbo kois. Also the ponds are drained out yearly while any small amount of soil we have in pots in the pond stay almost permanantly submerged and will go anaerobic with time. I've dug up a pot of water plant which the soil had been submerged underwater for a few years. The pong from the soil nearly knocked me over.... now I know how rotten egg smells like LaughLaugh.

It's all about trying to give as little opportunitiy for anaerobic bacteria to colonise your little confined koi pond, to lesson the chances of disease. (That's why I don't subscribe to using large amounts of coral chips as bio filtration media.). While the soil in the mud ponds may release minerals which enhance your koi, in the confined space of a concrete pond, these minerals can be replenished with bentonite clay additives. So, in my honest opinion, if you're dead serious about your koi, then soil and ponds don't quite mix....


DocRodConrad
User

Jan 1, 2003, 3:10 AM


Views: 97475
No problem here except in spawning season

The only time we have a real problem with keeping large koi together with plants is during "spawning" when the wild sex dance of these large fish tear up our lilies. But he lilies recover quickly from the damage.

We do not use soil with our lilies. We use soilless planting media, rocks, and fertilizer tablets with tropical lilies.



If you would like to look at some pictures of our ponding hobby, please do the following:

click up www.picturestage.com

sign is as a guest using the

User name: DocRodConrad

Password: Koi.my

You can click up two picture albums of digital pictures of our ponding hobby, showing large koi and tropical water lilies together.
Roddy Conrad, Charleston, WV, USA

(This post was edited by DocRodConrad on Jan 1, 2003, 3:19 AM)


koifun
Veteran


Jan 1, 2003, 4:33 AM


Views: 97472
Re: [DocRodConrad] No problem here except in spawning season

Hi, Doc

Have seen your koi pond with the beautiful lilies and kois. Real amazing eyes openning for me !!

Thanks for the initiative and wish you and your family a happy New Year.




  • "Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. - Euripides"
  • CoolSmileTongueSmile


    kbsim
    Novice

    Jan 2, 2003, 4:01 AM


    Views: 97452
    Re: [DocRodConrad] No problem here except in spawning season

    Hi Doc,

    Have seen your photos, very impressive. Can you please tell me what fertilizer tablets do you use and how often.

    Danny


    DocRodConrad
    User

    Jan 2, 2003, 5:21 AM


    Views: 97444
    fertilizer tablets

    I use a "large" fertilizer tablet, that weighs 22 grams on my gram balance, which is made by the Agriform company. I put 3 or 4 of them in every tropical lily about once a month or so.

    The koi DO eat on the plants, but only the leaves. And the leaves grow so fast that the plant does okay.

    I keep enough rocks in the pot that the koi cannot easily get to the roots. If they eat the roots, the plant will die.
    Roddy Conrad, Charleston, WV, USA


    HWONG
    Veteran

    Jan 2, 2003, 9:41 AM


    Views: 97433
    Re: [DocRodConrad] fertilizer tablets

    Hi Doc,

    Just curious. Wouldn't the fertiliser tablet provide nutrient to the algae? If not how it is so? Thks n Rgds.


    pklow
    User

    Jan 2, 2003, 11:49 AM


    Views: 97428
    Doc's Valuable Advice

    Dear All,

    Just would like to share with you all what Doc has taught me which he quotes as below (Doc, I hope you don't mind I share this with others Tongue):

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    First, I do not use any soil with my water plants which go into my koi ponds. I use coconut fiber mat, with a bound layer to keep it whole, for the roots. Two layers of the coconut fiber mat are used. A slit is cut into this fiber mat with scissors to put the roots through of the plant. Then the surface of the plant is covered with large, flat rocks, except, of course, the small area where the plant comes through from the roots. Then the entire top layer is covered with what we call "river rock", meaning medium sized rocks.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    KevKoi,

    Maybe you should try again if you were previously spook by the smell of the soil Sly.


    DocRodConrad
    User

    Jan 2, 2003, 1:28 PM


    Views: 97423
    comments

    A few more comments. Do not use "loose" soilless potting media, it has to be in a mat with a side with fabric. In the USA there are plenty of firms that sell that item.

    I never have a problem with stringy algae. But that is entirely another subject, worthy of its own discussion thread. I will write something on this later, right now it is 6:28 AM, need to have some breakfast and go to work!
    Roddy Conrad, Charleston, WV, USA


    KevKoi
    Koi Kichi


    Jan 3, 2003, 3:44 AM


    Views: 97413
    Re: [pklow] Doc's Valuable Advice

    I have enough lilies as it is in my separate 2M x 1.5M x 0.5M deep lily pond. The lilies and lotus going mad there with soil and compost mix (no kois).... I don't think I'll plant in the pond.... Need plant maintenance like trimming dead leaves and splitting the tuber for propagation..... Not an easy job to waddle in to the pond to do all that. The pond bottom is very slippery, and deep plus the old lady (me mom) has to do all this by herself while I'm in Australia and dad in China!

    U can go ahead and try it and keep us updated on the results... Wink


    pklow
    User

    Jan 3, 2003, 11:52 AM


    Views: 97398
    Re: [KevKoi] Doc's Valuable Advice

    OK Kevin, you got your point. I am exactly in the same situation like yours but probably worse!!! My mum was the one who feedback the condition of my pond / koi / plant Crazy since I spend most of my time in Taiwan and China. As a matter of fact, I am still in Taiwan right now and really miss my kois even though they are still new to me Unsure. Anyway, thanks for your advice.


    kbsim
    Novice

    Jan 4, 2003, 10:19 AM


    Views: 97378
    Re: [DocRodConrad] fertilizer tablets

    Hi Doc,

    Could not find Agriform fertilizer tablets in Brunei. What is Agriform fertilizer? If my floating water plants are turning yellow, presume not enough fertilizer, can I throw Agriform fertilizer tablets into the pond? Will it harm the fishes?

    Regards, Danny


    DocRodConrad
    User

    Jan 5, 2003, 3:14 AM


    Views: 97367
    Agriform tablet specs

    The 21 gram Agriform brand fertilizer tablets specifications are found here:



    http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/...log_Page.asp?ID=1618#



    The standard description of the tablet is a 20/10/5 formula, plus trace nutrients. Meaning 20% nitrogen, 10% potash, 5% potassium.



    Any similiar brand should work well.
    Roddy Conrad, Charleston, WV, USA


    dob
    Novice

    Apr 1, 2003, 8:24 PM


    Views: 97072
    Re: [DocRodConrad] Agriform tablet specs

    I too experienced these plant problems. I have a wire cylinder around my lilly that comes to just under the surface and noticed the koi would actually jump out of the water and into this 'basket' just to get to the plant. The plant gets an nibble every once and a while but is still going strong. I also had a bunch of hyacinth that the koi seem to love to munch. these are hardy enough that the little bits become new plants though. It's a balance in my pond between plants and fish. I only have about 5 Koi so they can't do too much damage.

    In my new pond I'm going to make a bog and plant section that feeds into the pond but the fish can't get to it. I really need to get cracking on my new pond.


    cwnchong
    Koi Kichi

    Apr 2, 2003, 10:55 AM


    Views: 97044
    Re: [dob] Agriform tablet specs

    Hi Dob,
    There are some forum members experience keeping plants in koi ponds quite successfully. They were saying that the plant has to reside in the pond before the fish are introduced. It sound like if the koi are renting the premises they will not do any renovation to their home. The members even shown some pictures in some of their threads too. Look up for the previous threads and they will be happy to give some additional advice.
    Since u are having a new pond why not give it a shot by introducing the plant first. If it works all the better.
    Have a nice day.


    Benson_ken
    Novice

    Apr 30, 2003, 6:23 PM


    Views: 96719
    Re: [pklow] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants?

    Hello to all,

    I have a relatively new pond. It is 3 years old.

    The pond has a stream, water fall and two cascading ponds with a submersable pump in the bottom pond.

    The middle pool has about 800 gallons with 7 Koi from 1 to 3 years old. The pond uses plants and the stream for filtration with the help of Microbe Lift. The middle pool, with the Koi, has three lilies in perforated baskets topped with rock, horn wart, penny wart, iris and lemon grass. The bottom of the ponds are lined with river rock that anchors the horn wart.

    The bottom pond has some lilies and lemon grass. The water quality is good with the help of 20% water change every 2 weeks. We get 8 months of rain and 40 degree F winter average temperatures.

    So far all is well with the plants and fish. The largest fish is 12 inches long.

    The Bulk of the filtering work is done by trench in the stream bed that is filled with a plant called parrot feather. It is a very aggressive plant with fast growing roots. Other plants help along the stream also. The trench gets wet vacuumed out twice per year.

    Regards,

    Benson


    dttk
    Veteran

    Apr 30, 2003, 7:02 PM


    Views: 96716
    Re: [Benson_ken] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants?

    Benson, good to know that your koi are living in harmony with your plants Smile. Any chance for a picture of your beautiful pond and landscape? Smile I have a vege filter too but the koi can't get at the plants. Sly
    Always friendly :)


    Benson_ken
    Novice

    Apr 30, 2003, 7:45 PM


    Views: 96712
    Re: [dttk] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants?

    Hi dttk,

    I have several that I will be happy to send tomorrow. It has become an environment rich with fish, plants,birds, insects and frogs. Sometimes the frogs are too noisy at night.



    Regards,

    Benson


    Benson_ken
    Novice

    Apr 30, 2003, 11:24 PM


    Views: 96710
    Re: [dttk] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants?

    Hello dttk,

    I found several pictures on cd to show several views at various times last summer and spring. Bare with the amiture photography. The veggi filter does not show well due to the lighting and it was not the photo subject. Ops! How do I attach the jpeg files?


    Regards,

    Benson


    dttk
    Veteran

    May 1, 2003, 4:46 AM


    Views: 37468
    Re: [Benson_ken] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants?

    Benson, to attach jpg files, make sure each file is less than 39kb. Then go to Members Pond section. Post new and you'll find an upload function at the bottom of the window. You could upload one file at a time but all within the same post. Smile

    I'll be looking forward to see the pics. Thanks!Wink
    Always friendly :)


    Benson_ken
    Novice

    May 1, 2003, 5:50 PM


    Views: 37461
    Re: [dttk] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants?

    Sorry dttk,

    These files are 6++kb in size. A cropped file reduction would show little detail and would not reduce to 39kb. Do you have an email address that can recieve larger files?

    Regards,

    Benson


    dttk
    Veteran

    May 2, 2003, 7:41 AM


    Views: 37455
    Re: [Benson_ken] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants?

    Benson, you're welcome to send the files to me for downsizing Smile. My email is dttk@pc.jaring.my

    Cheers!
    Always friendly :)


    kitsen
    User

    Jun 4, 2003, 7:06 PM


    Views: 37368
    Re: [pklow] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants?

    I've got plants and they're doing great. I can only give you my own deductions from my own experience, so don't take everything I say as gospel and spread it around.

    Well, we all know carp are inquisitive creatures. They'll gnaw and poke at anything new. They also won't bother with anything old and familiar. (In my opinion, they learn, and have memory)

    I added the plant/s in the pond, then baby koi between 3-4in long. Oh, they poked at the plants like crazy! But being small, little damage was done. After two months, they've more or less grown tired of that. They're now 8in long though, and if they tried it now, they'd devour the plant.

    Following my 'schooling' theory, or less eloquently, 'monkey see, moneky do,' I added an 11 inch koi recently. It follows the other 8in koi round and round and never touch the plants.

    I think koi behaviour can be influenced by other fish. Thus they'll end up doing, or in this case, not doing what all the others do not do; which is attack the plants.

    Okay, I know my concluions seem far fetched, but it's also based on other numerous observations I haven't mentioned because it's beyond the scope of a single forum posting.Tongue And unlike testing water quality, I can't give any empirical data.


    redriverkoi
    Novice

    Jun 11, 2003, 9:10 PM


    Views: 37331
    Re: [DocRodConrad] fertilizer tablets

    I live in Oklahoma and we have lillies with our koi but they are not quite as big as some I see on here yet.

    I have not had a problem with plants and fish mixed together. We just use regular dirt plant the lilie and cover with gravel of some sort about 3in deep to cover the mud.

    We use Tree and shrub stakes to fertilize our lillies and I also have cattails They come in a long stake and we break it in 4 pieces our pots are about the size of a 5 gallon bucket cut in half. we put about 3 pieces in when it starts to get warm and things are starting to grow and you only have to fertilize one time a year.

    Mitsy


    likdaor
    User

    Aug 5, 2003, 7:14 PM


    Views: 37220
    Re: [pklow] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants?

    Hi pklow,Your question isn't Stupid! same question we asked koi club members where we live. They told us /forget plants in pond koi would destroy them. Since I believe a pond looks much better with plants I went against them and we have 7 water lily plants and 16 other plants in pond.All growing and doing well koi only swim thru them when they spawn then they mess pond up a bit but they don't destroy plants. I found out why koi attack plants. we planted plants same as you with rocks on top.The reason I found is koi need almost constant food not bye you feeding them but by algae in pond.We fertilize plants every 2 weeks we feed koi 2 times a day the rest of time they eat algae on side of walls and they do not eat plants. Now when a koi club member tells me we can't have plants I say Really!! I guess i must have plastic plants in pond and didn't know it! lol good luck . Likdaor


    pklow
    User

    Aug 6, 2003, 12:53 PM


    Views: 37214
    Re: [likdaor] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants?

    Hi Likdaor,

    Totally agree with you! I really couldn't tolerate a pond without plants too and did the same as you and guess what, they get along with each other perfectly, and of course a minor conflict do happen and I still can put up with that. Thanks for sharing your success!


    Condor
    Novice

    Oct 4, 2003, 9:15 PM


    Views: 37101
    Re: [pklow] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants?

    My koi are smaller and are not full grown yet, but they leave my plants alone. I have only been raising koi this year, but raised various species of fish for about 30 years. Fish will show immediate interest in something introduced new into their environment, but after a period of time they ignore anything they did not eat. For example:

    I had several South American cichlids which got fed goldfish once a week for health, color, and it helps lead them to breeding. One feeding they did not devour all the fish and one of the goldfish continued to live. The following week I fed them goldfish again, and the same fish remainded untouched even though all the others were eaten. (I had even shortchanged the count to force them to eat the leftover fish) After a month, I had to remove it into another tank which had an isolated cichlid in it. Even then, it took about 3 weeks before it lost its' head!

    If the fish are established then you add a plant, they will see it as a salad bowl. If the plants are established and you add a new fish, they are accustomed to their presence and do not show so much attention to them. I also keep my lillies in baked fullers' earth and the plants eventually put roots out of the pot into the water. The koi get a snack without the need to root. I also found they love small Water Lettuce. If the fish have an alternate plant that they like more, they will ignore the lillies long enough to view them like that goldfish. You might try introducing the plants at first break of spring when the fish are just coming out of hibernation. The plants will gradually appear and not be seen as something to dive into for lunch.

    I don't know if this will help you at all, but maybe it can give you some ideas of what to try!



    Michael


    Ronelle
    New User

    Nov 5, 2003, 10:16 AM


    Views: 37055
    Re: [Benson_ken] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants?

    Hi

    I am a new Koi lover.

    Can I plant periwinkle next to my pool? Will it do anything to my koi's if the leaves hang over the edge of the pool in the water?

    Regards

    RonelleSmile


    looialex
    Novice

    Nov 17, 2003, 5:30 AM


    Views: 37025
    Re: [pklow] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants?

    Alex Looi must be out of his mind to post advertising contents here. He has only stone is his head without brain I guess


    (This post was edited by Khoobg on Dec 16, 2003, 5:06 PM)


    KevKoi
    Koi Kichi


    Nov 17, 2003, 6:25 AM


    Views: 37022
    Re: [looialex] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants?

    Mad UrrrgH! Enough of this.
    Mr Looi, either you're just downright clueless or you're bloody damn desperate. I'd like to think it was the latter.

    Either way, ur marketing skills are not welcome here. (Pretty pathetic marketing I'd have to say.)

    I'd suggest you read the rules of the forum or your stay here will be pretty short lived. I think we have tolerated your nonsense long enough.


    pisces222
    Novice

    Nov 22, 2003, 7:54 PM


    Views: 36977
    Re: [looialex] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants?

    You gotta be kidding me right? You're actually spamming inside a specific dedicated moderated special discussion thread, which is itself inside a specifically dedicated moderated topical forum... which is itself only found on this Veerrrrry specific dedicated moderated special interest website,...

    You are a shameless hack and should be gaffed (metap[horically speaking of course).

    Having said this, looialex, you absolutely must send me a mail order for $100 so I can give all my top secrets about "Soy Futures"... you hack.


    adavisus
    Novice

    Dec 15, 2003, 1:04 PM


    Views: 36934
    Re: [pklow] KOIs Can't Go Along With Plants?

    Hello Pklow,

    koi and plants have been getting along fine for thousands of years. Koiís that are overstocked in a tiny space and sadly lacking in decent meals will turn on plants when desperate. As a matter of routine, koi like munching on plant roots and anything else they can fit in their mouths...

    With koi growth rates as much as 2ft in two years, sooner or later they will outgrow many preform tub sized ponds, it might take a well planted area 10'x10' to keep them occupied with plants growing as fast as the koi nibbles them.

    There are many plants which have koi proof roots. cattails, carex, iris, nuphars are but a few varieties of aquatic plant that can cope with the worst fish grazing. Creating cordoned areas within a pond can create a 'nursery' area for small starts of plants

    Aquaric iris, water mint, pickerel and reeds can cope with fish grazing at their roots... Fragile but useful water filtering plants like water hyacinth could float in 'net bags' (get some black net, fine mesh, and make a koi proof 'corral' for plants to float within it... made circular, a floating 'island' of greedy water filtering plants will create an attractive feature

    Some like nymphaeas, the water lilies have brittle feeder roots, which, guess what, are sold with weave baskets often, (to make an extra buck) knowing full well your kois will destroy the roots and you will be back for another water lily (kerchung)

    If you plant water lilies in solid sided containers (large shallow tubs, buckets) the koi can't get at the brittle feeder roots, they do grow fine in koi pools, unless the lily is way small and delicate. There are several 'vigorous' water lilies that can cope with koi, no problem. Gladstonia, Attraction, alba, AJ Welch, etc spring to mind

    All in all, a careful selection of aquatic plants will do more for your water quality and koi than any of the way pricey filters and sterilisers ....a lot less bother....

    Its not a bad idea to grow plants on, away from the koi pool, in say, large water butts, so when they have established roots and growth, they are strong enough to cope with aggresive fish....

    Nicer to look at, too...

    andy
    http://community.webshots.com/user/adavisus
    (andys aquatic plant list :)