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Another dream kohaku

 






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Mohan Ghandi
Member


Jan 8, 2008, 10:42 PM

Post #1 of 37 (2386 views)
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Another dream kohaku Can't Post

  Hello koi kichis,



Since it is New Year, let me start the ball rolling by sharing with you yet another dream kohaku.

When we were in S’pore for the 13th koi show and championship, I purchased this kondo female kohaku.

At that time it was 35cm and below. It obtained a 2nd prize.

Around 23/8/07 it was measured 42cm. Today it is 53cm. The highlight of this koi is the lnazuma pattern.

According to the dealer, it had a very good chance of winning the junior champion ship in the next S’pore young koi show if it was below 50cm. It missed the golden opportunity. Anyway to compensate for the disappointment, we will enter Lim’s 48cm Shanke (which won the best in size) which is now in my pond. I think it will be a good contestant for the junior championship. I heard someone asking – anymore? – GD? – We will see.

Well, I am keeping the kohaku with the S’pore dealer. By this way, I can drag myself to visit the exotic S’pore show more often.

Koi kichis, your comment please



35cm-June-2007





42cm-23/8/2007
Hkk
Mohan. Cool


(This post was edited by Mohan Ghandi on Jan 8, 2008, 10:53 PM)
Attachments: 35cm.jpg (59.4 KB)
  42cm.jpg (76.1 KB)


sunshinekoi
Member


Jan 10, 2008, 4:19 AM

Post #2 of 37 (2270 views)
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Re: [Mohan Ghandi] Another dream kohaku [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Mohan,
Beautiful kohaku! The skin quality improves a lot. Hi thicken and edges between white and red get clearer define. Looks like a good breed to me.
The pattern and body structure reminds me of my koi at home which I am dearly miss! Pirate

One small note, what is causing the yellowish on the head and fins?

Sunshine


Mohan Ghandi
Member


Jan 10, 2008, 9:46 AM

Post #3 of 37 (2255 views)
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Re: [sunshinekoi] Another dream kohaku [In reply to] Can't Post

Dear Sunshinekoi,


Thks for your comments.

I’m not worried about the yellowish marks because it is handled by an expert and elegant dealer. Moreover, it is enjoying the stay in a chiller pond.

Can you share pix of your koi?
Hkk
Mohan. Cool


sunshinekoi
Member


Jan 10, 2008, 3:11 PM

Post #4 of 37 (2232 views)
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Re: [Mohan Ghandi] Another dream kohaku [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Mohan,
She must be really enjoying herself very much in the very good hand. Cool

Here comes my koi. She is definitely bigger now since I have not bowl it up for a while. Any comment?



Mohan Ghandi
Member


Jan 15, 2008, 8:34 PM

Post #5 of 37 (2035 views)
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Re: [sunshinekoi] Another dream kohaku [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Sunshinekoi,
Thanks for sharing your Kohaku.
If the last hi plate joins the rest it would be better.
The pix does not show the volume.
Both looks like twin sisters
We shud compare the growth at a later stage.
Hkk
Mohan. Cool


sunshinekoi
Member


Jan 15, 2008, 8:53 PM

Post #6 of 37 (2031 views)
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Re: [Mohan Ghandi] Another dream kohaku [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Mohan,
I totally agreed with you. I will try to take pictures some other time. I am not very good in bowling and taking photo all by myself. So need another pair of hands. Wink
I have her in my 2 tons fibre, so I wont be surprise your baby can outgrow any time. Laugh

Sunshine


koinutx
Koi Lover


Jan 20, 2008, 11:05 PM

Post #7 of 37 (1901 views)
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Re: [sunshinekoi] Another dream kohaku [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Mohan,

Nice meeting you.
How's the result?

I left before noon, so didn't get to see the judging for the bigger fish.


larz1
Koi Kichi


Jan 21, 2008, 8:32 PM

Post #8 of 37 (1845 views)
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Re: [Mohan Ghandi] Another dream kohaku [In reply to] Can't Post

Good Morning Mohan.
Her skin looks impressive. Even at this age her scales have a well polished look to them and the beni looks exceptionally thick and rich. She also looks to have excellent growth potential for the future, so missing out on the Junior championship may well translate into something even more impressive a year or two down the road.
In some ways I'd almost take the yellowish tinge on the face and pecs as a good sign. As good as the finish on her body seems today, the yellow areas speak of a Koi that is still maturing toward a better finish in the future. I'll be looking forward to that.


Mohan Ghandi
Member


Jan 21, 2008, 10:18 PM

Post #9 of 37 (1839 views)
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Re: [larz1] Another dream kohaku [In reply to] Can't Post



Hi koinutx,lazrl and fellow koi kichis,


Oh yah, we are back from the S’pore koi show but none of Poh Chai or my koi was placed – including my dream kohaku. Well as I look at it, it is a dealers’ show (our local shows are no exception). There were 8 dealers taking part and grapping all the trophies. In other words, we koi hobbyist are not fighting with fellow koi hobbyist but with dealers. The koi dealers’ entries are fresh from Japan. We are contesting with Japanese kois. As a hobbyist, I must tell you that I am frustrated and demoralized with this development in the koi hobby. It is a money game. If you want to win in a koi show it is not so much of having a good pond with good water parameters and good kois but whether you have the money and the right contact with the right dealer. The first there (3) major winners are imports from Japan and one of them costs 3million yen – you can visualize what is developing …… if you do not want to be demoralized or upset in a show look for the right dealer and of course get the money and you will be the champion. What I am saying is 100% true and applies to both Malaysian and S’pore shows. Look at the Grand Champions where they come from? – They are fresh imports from Japan.


If you look at the last Sentul park koi center show it was a little different. Since a dealer organized it, most it not all the dealers kept away and many koi hobbyists won prizes – like Kok, Wong, Poh Chai, Lim, Raymond, Jeffery…… This is a good development. The dealers monopolizing the koi shows are obviously at the expense of genuine hobbyist and a drastic drawback to the healthy development of the hobby.

The one lesson I learnt is that you must be a ‘big player’ in the hobby if you want to win. – Not that you play with a big pond, good water condition and good skill but with, money.



As an ardent hobbyist, I am against this development but whether you like it or not this trend is there to stay. Try entering your kois in a major show and you will realize the true fact. By entering my kois for the show I have learnt a bitter lesson. I need lot of courage and encouragement to enter for any future shows.

However, the one good point I learnt from the S’pore show is that unlike our shows, the juding was open to the public –this was in line with principle that justice must be seen to done.


Here is the pix of my dream kohaku which was not good enough when compared with the fresh Japanese imports.





Any comments koi kichis?


Hkk
Mohan. Cool


(This post was edited by Mohan Ghandi on Jan 21, 2008, 10:20 PM)
Attachments: 1_19_2008 9_48 AM_0002.jpg (40.7 KB)


HWONG
Koi Addict

Jan 22, 2008, 12:34 AM

Post #10 of 37 (1824 views)
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Hi Mohan,
I can understand your disappointment. But you are made of sterner stuff than that lah...Wink I guess it depends on which size category you play at. The larger sized kois in the Gosanke is hotly contested and there will be people who will invest in such kois to win major awards. Then again, big money did not guarantee 1st prize as you have seen. I also observed that there were numerous kois that won, were kois that were in the last show. Example. a Maruten Kohaku, A 65 BU ginrin Kohaku and so on. This is a good sign as these kois managed to retain their quality and probably they only grew a liitle; hence did not stretch things too much.

Your dream kohaku is a good koi but I was stunned by how much she has grown in such a short timeShocked. While she retained her Shiroji, her Hi was streched a liitle thin. Give her time , when she slows down growth a bit and start to consolidate, she shud give the next round of contenders a run for their money.Wink

On another matter, this year's winners list was a good spread of dealers and individuals unlike the last show. So I see it as an improvement. When SKC first held a show at a Dealers place, almost all dealers stayed away and koi entry was very few. Koi entries was mostly from the organising dealer and some hobbyist. It did improve a little over the next few shows but the number of koi entries was still modest. The turning point was last year when people realised that the judging was fairly done and another dealer and his customers walked away with the top prizes including your koi. As a result of this positive development, more dealers and hobbyist entered this show.

The same situation happened in Kl show when it was organised by a dealer. But that dealer managed to convince his customers to enter their kois. Even then there were some people who were not happywith their results.

In our own ZNA Show, Major Gosanke prizes are hotly contested and you will have the same situation. I dont have the results with me as I write this; so I shall check and share with you all 2moro. I wud choose to contest in a less crowded field. like some of those who have won prizes.

Judging.

Watching the judging as it progresses is both exciting and exhilarating. However , the crowd control and interference are a major hindrance to judging.

For this young koi show, I am very sure, as a policy, no members of the public are allowed in the judging area hence the tapes that were used to cordoned off the area where the tanks were. The small kois in bags were in an area where it was in an open area. The public was reminded many many times to stay away and not be in the way. But how can you stop us koi kichis from where the action is.Wink The SKC can confirm their policy on this matter.
In Singapore's case, the handlers(dealers and also their customers who volunteered) are present bcos they have to bring kois to a judging area when required. This year, not many were asked to be brought out for closer comparison. But in the main show, all the 45cm and above kois were required to be brought to a judging area. And this is a logistic nigthmare. In one of their previous shows, the presence of dealers amd or owners and public caused a furor when the judges were accused of ignoring a koi. But as we all know now, that koi was not up to the mark.Crazy Even at this show, one owner thought the judges ignored his koi when it was not asked to be brought out and made some noises. But little did he know his koi was oredi voted the top koi and the judges wanted to choose 2nd and 3rd prize.Unsure

If you remembered well, during our last show when judging took longer than expected, the public were restless and was allowed in. The judges have to fight for space with the public. It became impossible to do the judging. As a result the judges just wanted to finish the job quickly and get out.
I believe koi entries deserved closer sctutiny but ....Unsure
So there is merit to not allow the public to be present when judgin is in progress.

However if it is not a problem if judging is in full view of the gallery provided the public can be restrained from enroaching into the show gorund. I liked what the Jakarta ZNA did. The show ground was shut out to the public and owners. There were seated in a theatre. Live video feed was projected unto two giant screens. The gallery cheered as each koi was named a winner. Cool Now that's showbiz. V r thinking about this for the next show but the cost will be high...Any sponsors??CoolCool

Cheers


koinutx
Koi Lover


Jan 22, 2008, 8:57 AM

Post #11 of 37 (1814 views)
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Hi Mohan...your dream koi will do better when the beni consolidate.

As mentioned during the show, the Show Timing is a bit 'out' and hence the condition of the fish (and many others) from the dealer is off their peak 'peak', and same for your dream koi.

The part on a 'dealer show', I do not agree to it.
I believed many of the contesting fish are owner's fish, except that they contest under the name of the dealer, due to some 'unknown' reason within the local koi circle.Crazy
(fyi, a hobbyist need to be a member of the koi club in order to participate in the show)

For size 40 and above, I think we are seeing many more participants,and the quality of fish also improved. Although the 3 grand prize belongs to fish freshly imported, there are many freshly imported fish didn't win too.Laugh Like HWong mentioned, there are a few lcoally grown fish that won.

And if you follow the S'pore Koi cricle, I think in general, the quality of koi that imported have improved a lot over the last 12-18 months. And hobbyist are more willing to show their high value koi, rather than jsut keep as a personal pet.Smile And the spread of prize across different dealer, I hope it will not be seen as an exercise of "distribution". I do hope that this is an encouraging sign that more dealers are keen to participate in show.

Lastly, the organiser and volunteer should get a good credit, as I think the overall show goes well, in term of logistic setup and organising.Cool


t28
Koi Lover


Jan 22, 2008, 10:53 AM

Post #12 of 37 (1798 views)
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In Reply To



Oh yah, we are back from the S’pore koi show but none of Poh Chai or my koi was placed – including my dream kohaku. Well as I look at it, it is a dealers’ show (our local shows are no exception). There were 8 dealers taking part and grapping all the trophies. In other words, we koi hobbyist are not fighting with fellow koi hobbyist but with dealers. The koi dealers’ entries are fresh from Japan. We are contesting with Japanese kois. As a hobbyist, I must tell you that I am frustrated and demoralized with this development in the koi hobby. It is a money game. If you want to win in a koi show it is not so much of having a good pond with good water parameters and good kois but whether you have the money and the right contact with the right dealer.

Any comments koi kichis?



Hi Mohan,

As far as i can remember, this has been the case, in Singapore at least. That is why I have never bothered to participate in koi shows, cos i do not have the spending power to import entries.

For me, its good enough to enjoy my koi for what they are.

cheers!


Tan Lee King
Member


Jan 22, 2008, 10:58 AM

Post #13 of 37 (1792 views)
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Hi Hwong and Mohan,

LaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh

Cheers


larz1
Koi Kichi


Jan 22, 2008, 9:41 PM

Post #14 of 37 (1726 views)
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I'd be more than a little bit disappointed too, and quite frankly I'm surprised that dealers enter fish to compete AGAINST their own customer base.

Here in the US there are two primary hobbyist organizations that most clubs belong to that provide guidelines for shows, etc...
ZNA and AKCA. They each have different governing philosophies, but professionals competing against hobbyists is not on the "to do" list. The only Pro's you will find at our shows are there to sell their Koi to hobbyists and help with the shows through sponsorship of awards, etc...

Each club that sponsors a show establishes its own set of specific rules, but I'm not aware of any where professionals are permitted to compete against their customers. In the case of AKCA, professionals are not even allowed to serve as officers in order to maintain the hobbyist control and focus of the competitive arena. ZNA affiliated clubs follow the guidelines and rules established by the Parent organization of ZNA in Japan.

There are a small handful of shows that are designed specifically for the purpose of showcasing the breeders and dealers and they exist for professionals, but they do not compete against hobbyists. Hobbyists look forward to those shows as an opportunity to view the best of what the pro's have to offer and to see how their new work is progressing.

I suppose the part of your situation I find most surprising is the fact that the Dealers are creating bad relationships with potential customers by going out of their way to defeat them. Seems to me that it is a very poor business practice.


Mohan Ghandi
Member


Jan 22, 2008, 10:47 PM

Post #15 of 37 (1721 views)
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Hi Tan,

I do not understand your post. Pls explain as to whether you agree with the development in our beloved hobby which appears to be unlike in US & (perhaps) Japan.

Your post reminds me of the various jokes you cracked during dinner.

My post is posted WITHOUT MALICE of any nature. Only true hobbyist will appreciate it.
Isn't it a shame to run shows contrary to basic principles which are practiced in advanced countries like US???

I will reply the others in detail soon.
Hkk
Mohan. Cool


HWONG
Koi Addict

Jan 23, 2008, 6:50 PM

Post #16 of 37 (1659 views)
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Mohan,
WHile in Singapore, Dave, Yit Kok and I were saying how we admire your spirit of participation....bringing your kois all the way to Singapore to compete. We said that we are guilty of calculating too much our koi's chance of winning that we missed out on what the hobby was all about... So we decided that we will enter our kois regardless of how they will do.

So brudder, DOnt stop, you have won many prizes in the past and even with your own home bred and you will continue to win. Your spirit is a fine example and our ray of hope. CheersSly


(This post was edited by HWONG on Jan 23, 2008, 6:58 PM)


HWONG
Koi Addict

Jan 23, 2008, 7:37 PM

Post #17 of 37 (1649 views)
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Larry,
I share your feelings about dealer participation. I can't comment on the Spore show as I dont know their show entry rules.
The main issue is hobbyist who pay top dollar to buy a freshly imported Ringer and compete with others who have been grroming their own kois. This issue is especially relevant here bcos, our water temperature is very high and our kois will eat and eat and expand stretching the Hi, Sumi, skin. We also dont have the benefit of a period of consolidation where the koi become less active allowing its qualities to crystallise. So you lose the sheen, lustre and white skin that is all too important in a competition. So your beloved koi (even though a top notch koi) when placed along side a fresh import, she looks pale in comparison.

So I wud like to emphasise that the problem is a fresh import and not whether the koi is expensive or not bcos your multi million yen koi bought last season who have spent a season in our warm water will not compare well unless you can duplicate the conditions(at least the water temp) in Japan.

All over the world, including the US, UK Europe etc. while Hobbyists shows bar dealers from entering the shows, there are also struggling with entries of "RINGERS" just off the plane. This is almost impossible to stop as how would one monitor such from happening. While we can cast suspicion that the koi is a new purchase, how can we proof that it has not been with the hobbyist for a while.

In our coming show, it will be very interesting as there will one such koi and it will take a koi the price of house or a luxury car to beat.

Cheers


Mohan Ghandi
Member


Jan 23, 2008, 8:07 PM

Post #18 of 37 (1649 views)
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Hi T28,

Happy to note that you are on the same boat.

When I entered for the 1st Koi Show, I had a 55cm showa. Before entering my koi, I surveyed all koi hobbyists’ pond and was confident of victory. At the show, Jeffery Tan’s (Peacock) showa took 2nd place and kohaku koi center’s showa took 1st place. These two were dealer’s koi and were fresh imports. From then on, I was debating as to whether to enter these shows which are clearly unfair, a mockery and breach of basic principles of justice. It is appalling and an affront to common sense.

What if Manchester United soccer team is allowed to compete in the Olympic Games?? Our shows are like that.


Of course, the organizers say that they cannot hold a show of this magnitude without the dealers. The only way to overcome this injustice is to have separate section for koi hobbyists and dealers at the same show. Perhaps, one fourth of the tanks could be reserved for koi hobbyists and the rest for the almighty dealers. I notice in the last Malaysian Show, only a handful of hobbyists took part which can be counted with our fingers. Perhaps, with a slight change more hobbyists will come in.

What is happening in reality is that we are holding the shows for the dealers. Should this practice prevail? I am cocksure that this trend will prevail. But good things and good principles will ultimately prevail – it could be today or tomorrow or later – but it will surely happen.

Today is Thaipusam and being a staunch Hindu and a koi hobbyist, I hope and pray for a good outcome.
Hkk
Mohan. Cool


(This post was edited by Mohan Ghandi on Jan 23, 2008, 8:14 PM)


Mohan Ghandi
Member


Jan 23, 2008, 8:57 PM

Post #19 of 37 (1643 views)
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Hi HWONG,

Thanks for your input.

Open to public
By open to public, I mean the public is allowed to see the judging from a safe distance. I am not advocating the idea that the public should be given the liberty to rub shoulders or even pat the back or cheer as the judges decide. Anything done in close doors gives rise to aspersion and raised eyebrows. These are basic norms of society - see the courts, election results counting - the Royal Commission etc etc etc. For example, a local show judging was held in the absence of the public. Many questions were raised which were not answered. Pls see further PM.

Poh chai’s two kois which won best in size in S’pore and Malaysia were not placed as well.


Dream kohaku

I agree with you that it is not ready for the present. One of the ACJ has the same opinion.



Dealers’ show

After reading your reply to Larzl’s post and your PM, I have to amend my reply to you on this point.

I notice that you are now getting the point. You are in a better position to call the shots – pls start the ball rolling for the betterment of the hobby which you and me love the most.
Hkk
Mohan. Cool


Mohan Ghandi
Member


Jan 23, 2008, 9:12 PM

Post #20 of 37 (1637 views)
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Koinutx,

I think your facts are not right. Please log on to Singapore koi club website for the results. If hobbyists’ names are there, it is a case of hobbyists hiding behind the dealers. If my dream kohaku wins – I think it is a victory for the dealer and not me. If this practice is not allowed, I will bring home my koi forthwith. I am keeping there for the purpose of entering in future koi shows and nothing else.


Hkk
Mohan. Cool


Mohan Ghandi
Member


Jan 23, 2008, 9:40 PM

Post #21 of 37 (1632 views)
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  Hi larz1,



Thanks for your reply,


Whether it is an injustice, awkward, appalling, awesome or what not, we koi hobbyist will have to put up with it. I notice that our Malaysians learnt the running of shows from their S’pore counterpart. It will be difficult to change – like squeezing water out of sand.
Hkk
Mohan. Cool


(This post was edited by Mohan Ghandi on Jan 23, 2008, 9:42 PM)


larz1
Koi Kichi


Jan 23, 2008, 10:14 PM

Post #22 of 37 (1626 views)
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The issue of "Ringers" coming in have been debated here in the US as well many hundreds of times, and it is a difficult problem to overcome if a hobbyist wants to show not only his ability to select a winner, but maintain it well with good personal husbandry. The "Personal Touch" of the hobbyist adds value to the prize in my book.
Many of our US shows now require an entrant sign a declaration of ownership indicating that they have had he fish in their possession for at least 90 days prior to the show. It is an honor system and almost impossible to verify if one chose to be deceptive, but the "Koi Culture" is hoped to be one of honor after all.

I have proposed the idea of having a "Dream Show" (my dream anyway) that would incorporate all aspects of the hobby.

An amateur division, where only hobbyists would be allowed to participate with Koi they had personally raised for at least a reasonable time frame.

A professional division, where dealers and breeders would be the entrants, and "Ringer Koi" owned by private hobbyists but held by dealers/breeders until the show would compete together.

Winners of GC, RGC, Baby Champ, best in size/variety, etc... would be awarded separately in each division.

At the end of the two separate competitions, the winners from each would then be judged in a head to head competition for "Champion of Champion" honors in each class.

In this way, participation from all serious segments of the hobby are encouraged to participate, the hobby maintains a higher level of integrity, the number of entrants goes up, and the shows prosper.

There is less demand for such in our part of the world, mainly because our country is so large that a show like yours is almost impossible to put together. In your situation however such a show would be less difficult, and the current circumstance may create a situation that is ripe for it.


sunshinekoi
Member


Jan 24, 2008, 4:17 AM

Post #23 of 37 (1610 views)
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Larz1,
Your proposal is an ear-opener for me! I be damn!! Laugh This will be what is call a "fair competition" is a fair competition without any deviation and certainly bring up a lot of interest in koi hobby and encourage more hobbists to participate. Do you mind I ask what is your experience in Japan Koi show, their rules and policy? Are they any different to what is discussed here in terms of who organise the show, who compete in the show and whether dealer representing their clients to compete their koi to ensure they are at top notch or could be different set-up? There is no intention of me to bring up any hu-ha but to understand and discuss how the system works and from within, we could be polishing the policy and rules better for future show and reference. After all, every koi competents always want a utmost fair judgement on their beloved.

Appreciate your comment!
Sunshine Wink


koinutx
Koi Lover


Jan 24, 2008, 8:39 AM

Post #24 of 37 (1594 views)
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Re: [Mohan Ghandi] Another dream kohaku [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Koinutx,

I think your facts are not right. Please log on to Singapore koi club website for the results. If hobbyists’ names are there, it is a case of hobbyists hiding behind the dealers. If my dream kohaku wins – I think it is a victory for the dealer and not me. If this practice is not allowed, I will bring home my koi forthwith. I am keeping there for the purpose of entering in future koi shows and nothing else.




Hi Mohan,

are you refering of koi winner name listed as dealer?

I know many guys (including myself), we enter our own fish for the show under the Dealer Name, simply bec we are not a member of the koi club, and hence cannot take part in the koi show.

I believed if your dream koi win, it will be listed under JK Koi (owner and handler)

Unless the rule has changed overnight, which I'll not be updated, since I'm not a member of the club anyway.Tongue
Smile


t28
Koi Lover


Jan 24, 2008, 9:29 AM

Post #25 of 37 (1585 views)
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In Reply To
This issue is especially relevant here bcos, our water temperature is very high and our kois will eat and eat and expand stretching the Hi, Sumi, skin. We also dont have the benefit of a period of consolidation where the koi become less active allowing its qualities to crystallise. So you lose the sheen, lustre and white skin that is all too important in a competition. So your beloved koi (even though a top notch koi) when placed along side a fresh import, she looks pale in comparison.

This is totally true! My purchases from last year's harvest really stood out from the crowd the moment they were introduced into my pond, thanks to the power of the Japanese mud ponds!

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