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Momotaro Eagle Bloodline Tosais

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nikey
Koi Lover

Jun 19, 2007, 11:20 AM

Post #26 of 69 (2971 views)
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Re: [HWONG] HWONG'S Momotaro Eagle Bloodline Tosais [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Hwong,
Your kohaku is quiet adorable. The body has the shape of chagoi which I usually see. Long body. The water it was kept is good by looking at the white. This koi is also showing some yellowishness on the head, am I wrong?
Look like the body quiet round, I presume it has good body height.

The only unfavour for me is the head not so lengthy. I hope it is the angle which the camera taken.

The line along the top fins is not so obvious (see Mohan's koi male and compare). I am not sure this is the character of the bloodline or the photo angle. I understand momotaro kohaku usually has quiet a tall body. Means body is quiet "vertical" and not rounded when young.

Let me know if it hit 65cm!

Hope my opinion didnt offence you anyhow.
Nikey.......

HWONG
Koi Addict

Jun 20, 2007, 5:28 PM

Post #27 of 69 (2926 views)
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nikey
Koi Lover

Jun 20, 2007, 9:57 PM

Post #28 of 69 (2902 views)
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Re: [HWONG] HWONG'S Momotaro Eagle Bloodline Tosais [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Nickey,
Dont worry about offending anyone here. It may take quite a bit to get me pissed

<Look like the body quiet round, I presume it has good body height.> Yes it does have good body height That's good

The only unfavour for me is the head not so lengthy. I hope it is the angle which the camera taken. This koi has a wide head and the angle of the shot makes the head also look somewhat short. ok that clarify the doubt (1)

The line along the top fins is not so obvious (see Mohan's koi male and compare). I am not sure this is the character of the bloodline or the photo angle. Are you referring to the Hi on the dorsal fin? If so, I believe , the Hi will contract. I try to explain. The line along the dorsal fin, looking at the photo, is not "thick". This could be due to the photo angle which is not obvious at all (2).

understand momotaro kohaku usually has quiet a tall body. Means body is quiet "vertical" and not rounded when young. Not so. Body height varies from koi to koi. in this batch, tere are all sorts of bodies. I agreed. So what character would you consider when you know he/she is eagle bloodline? I have a mindful of questions. First, when there is a mention of good bloodline (in a few other threads), most ppl will rush to get one, is it because of the mother, grandmother, farm reputation etc that attract ppl. It must be something. I know for sure with known bloodline, it will grow big but what else is being considered. Maybe I am deviating away from the subject....sorry.

Let me know if it hit 65cm! If? You think this koi will have difficulty growing to 65 cm. If so why.. This is based on doubt from (1) and (2) and since you clarified it is not as what I described, I am still interested to see how it developed when it hit 65cm.

(This post was edited by nikey on Jun 20, 2007, 10:00 PM)

koinutx
Koi Lover

Jun 21, 2007, 8:19 AM

Post #29 of 69 (2879 views)
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Re: [nikey] HWONG'S Momotaro Eagle Bloodline Tosais [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Hi Nikey & HWong, Let me chip in a bit on this batch of fish, based on the 5-6 pieces left in the dealer big pond. The only unfavour for me is the head not so lengthy. I hope it is the angle which the camera taken. This koi has a wide head and the angle of the shot makes the head also look somewhat short. ok that clarify the doubt (1)
I agree more with Nikey that the head is not long. It is wide and more towards 'square' head type.
The line along the top fins is not so obvious (see Mohan's koi male and compare). I am not sure this is the character of the bloodline or the photo angle. Are you referring to the Hi on the dorsal fin? If so, I believe , the Hi will contract. I try to explain. The line along the dorsal fin, looking at the photo, is not "thick". This could be due to the photo angle which is not obvious at all (2).
I guess Nikey is refering to the Back bone. I think the piece the Hwong has is not obvious, and this dealer has once mentioned to me that this is one of the characteristics for potential big fish.
understand momotaro kohaku usually has quiet a tall body. Means body is quiet "vertical" and not rounded when young. Not so. Body height varies from koi to koi. in this batch, tere are all sorts of bodies. I agreed. So what character would you consider when you know he/she is eagle bloodline? I have a mindful of questions. First, when there is a mention of good bloodline (in a few other threads), most ppl will rush to get one, is it because of the mother, grandmother, farm reputation etc that attract ppl. It must be something. I know for sure with known bloodline, it will grow big but what else is being considered. Maybe I am deviating away from the subject....sorry.
Body height is definitely not there for this batch. On the point raise by Nikey on chasing after bloodline, I also ask myself this question, How Reliable is the dealer in Quoting the Bloodline, if we do not have a Certificate that state the Bloodline. I'm not sure whether you guy have the Certificate with Bloodline stated. I dun have my. (And the certificate I got from this dealer for other fish do not quote the Bloodline, which is Different from what I see in another dealer, which has the bloodline quoted for the Momo fish). Hence how sure can I said these fish are from the eagle bloodline? At this moment, I think only the bulgy eyes looks like the parent. Other stuff, probably have to wait for 1-2 years to confirm whether the fish has the quality of the parent. Wink

Let me know if it hit 65cm! If? You think this koi will have difficulty growing to 65 cm. If so why.. This is based on doubt from (1) and (2) and since you clarified it is not as what I described, I am still interested to see how it developed when it hit 65cm. Nikey, beside the doubts from (1) & (2), any other characteristics that you will check to determine whether the fish has the potential to grow jumbo, or just stay at Medium size. Among the 5-6 pieces left in this dealer place at that time (including my and Hwong piece), he mentioned to me a few pieces are Medium size fish, which is either the pattern or body will not made the fish look good or grow to the size of Jumbo. Smile

(This post was edited by koinutx on Jun 21, 2007, 8:25 AM)

HWONG
Koi Addict

Jun 21, 2007, 1:40 PM

Post #30 of 69 (2849 views)
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Re: [koinutx] HWONG'S Momotaro Eagle Bloodline Tosais [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quote

on chasing after bloodline, I also ask myself this question, How Reliable is the dealer in Quoting the Bloodline, if we do not have a Certificate that state the Bloodline.

Even with cert stating the Parents, I guess you have to trust that the guy is telling the truth.

nikey
Koi Lover

Jun 22, 2007, 5:55 AM

Post #31 of 69 (2811 views)
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Re: [koinutx] HWONG'S Momotaro Eagle Bloodline Tosais [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Hi Nikey & HWong, Let me chip in a bit on this batch of fish, based on the 5-6 pieces left in the dealer big pond. The only unfavour for me is the head not so lengthy. I hope it is the angle which the camera taken. This koi has a wide head and the angle of the shot makes the head also look somewhat short. ok that clarify the doubt (1)
I agree more with Nikey that the head is not long. It is wide and more towards 'square' head type. Koinutx, is this what you described on the real koi itself or from the photo?
The line along the top fins is not so obvious (see Mohan's koi male and compare). I am not sure this is the character of the bloodline or the photo angle. Are you referring to the Hi on the dorsal fin? If so, I believe , the Hi will contract. I try to explain. The line along the dorsal fin, looking at the photo, is not "thick". This could be due to the photo angle which is not obvious at all (2).
I guess Nikey is refering to the Back bone. I think the piece the Hwong has is not obvious, and this dealer has once mentioned to me that this is one of the characteristics for potential big fish. The backbone is one of the body structure required in order to grow big. A very interesting statement. I look forward to see how well it grows since the dealer view is not the same.
understand momotaro kohaku usually has quiet a tall body. Means body is quiet "vertical" and not rounded when young. Not so. Body height varies from koi to koi. in this batch, tere are all sorts of bodies. I agreed. So what character would you consider when you know he/she is eagle bloodline? I have a mindful of questions. First, when there is a mention of good bloodline (in a few other threads), most ppl will rush to get one, is it because of the mother, grandmother, farm reputation etc that attract ppl. It must be something. I know for sure with known bloodline, it will grow big but what else is being considered. Maybe I am deviating away from the subject....sorry.
Body height is definitely not there for this batch. On the point raise by Nikey on chasing after bloodline, I also ask myself this question, How Reliable is the dealer in Quoting the Bloodline, if we do not have a Certificate that state the Bloodline. I'm not sure whether you guy have the Certificate with Bloodline stated. I dun have my. (And the certificate I got from this dealer for other fish do not quote the Bloodline, which is Different from what I see in another dealer, which has the bloodline quoted for the Momo fish). Hence how sure can I said these fish are from the eagle bloodline? At this moment, I think only the bulgy eyes looks like the parent. Other stuff, probably have to wait for 1-2 years to confirm whether the fish has the quality of the parent. Wink

maybe you can ask the dealer as to what criteria then the dealer will provide a cert. I personally believe if one knows and understand the character of certain bloodline, the confident will be higher in purchasing one.
Let me know if it hit 65cm! If? You think this koi will have difficulty growing to 65 cm. If so why.. This is based on doubt from (1) and (2) and since you clarified it is not as what I described, I am still interested to see how it developed when it hit 65cm. Nikey, beside the doubts from (1) & (2), any other characteristics that you will check to determine whether the fish has the potential to grow jumbo, or just stay at Medium size. Among the 5-6 pieces left in this dealer place at that time (including my and Hwong piece), he mentioned to me a few pieces are Medium size fish, which is either the pattern or body will not made the fish look good or grow to the size of Jumbo. Smile

Body structure is my main criteria. If I don't see it, I cannot convince myself. But in this case, if the koi dealer did mention otherwise, I would be interested to see how it develop and learn. Maybe Hwong has some info as to how big this koi going to be,from the dealer.

koinutx
Koi Lover

Jun 22, 2007, 8:40 AM

Post #32 of 69 (2807 views)
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Re: [nikey] HWONG'S Momotaro Eagle Bloodline Tosais [In reply to]	Can't Post

Code

I agree more with Nikey that the head is not long. It is wide and more towards 'square' head type. Koinutx, is this what you described on the real koi itself or from the photo?

Nikey, I'm refering to the actual fish I saw in the dealer pond (leftover of 5-6 pieces, including HWong piece), whereby I choose my Kohaku from the same batch. (photo attached earlier.) Especifically for my, you can see that the angle of the photo, 45degree from front, made the head slighty longer and it is.

Code

  
I guess Nikey is refering to the Back bone. I think the piece the Hwong has is not obvious, and this dealer has once mentioned to me that this is one of the characteristics for potential big fish. The backbone is one of the body structure required in order to grow big. A very interesting statement. I look forward to see how well it grows since the dealer view is not the same.

Nikey, I meant the dealer did share with me that Strong back bone is one of the characteristic for growth potential into jumbo. For my kohaku, he only state as medium fish, 60-70 the most. And many of the leftover fish.

Quote

I'm not familiar in this area. Crazy

thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

Jun 22, 2007, 9:35 AM

Post #33 of 69 (2799 views)
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Re: [koinutx] HWONG'S Momotaro Eagle Bloodline Tosais [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Members,

Just to share some information here in this discussion. According to Mamoru Kodama in his book
' Kokugyo ', there are 2 features to look out for when selecting potential future Jumbo koi :-

1) High backbone body structure

2) Thick tail tube

Beside that, bloodline, pond size, water management, husbandary koi keeping skills etc. are all imp.
contributing factors as well.

Regards,
Thiam Hwa

(This post was edited by thiamhwa on Jun 22, 2007, 10:35 AM)

Mohan Ghandi
Member

Jun 24, 2007, 10:58 AM

Post #34 of 69 (2686 views)
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Re: [thiamhwa] HWONG'S Momotaro Eagle Bloodline Tosais [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hello there,

I was down with food poisoning after taking a cup of �soup kambing� to keep me up but it made me down.

Now that I am ok, I logged on and found a parliamentary session - the usually vociferous (No offence meant) Hwong is keeping surveillance. - When are you coming in? My head is not steady to chip in - with all the medications.
Hkk
Mohan. Cool

larz1
Koi Kichi

Jun 26, 2007, 2:38 AM

Post #35 of 69 (2611 views)
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Re: [Mohan Ghandi] HWONG'S Momotaro Eagle Bloodline Tosais [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sorry to hear you have been under the weather. I enjoyed the newer photos of your foursome. The beni is becoming more refined and they are all continuing to improve IMHO. These will be long term projects in terms of show finishing, but it appears they will be very large when the finish is ready to compete.

HWONG, I consider the one you posted a keeper. As this one puts on greater size the odome will become irrelevant. (Take a look at this years BKKS GC) The greatest single strength I see, aside from the good body and skin, is the beni. The quality of the center of the scales is of the same depth and color as the facial beni. That bodes well for the future finish of this Koi being deep and strong from end to end.

HWONG
Koi Addict

Jun 27, 2007, 6:16 PM

Post #36 of 69 (2556 views)
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Re: [larz1] HWONG'S Momotaro Eagle Bloodline Tosais [In reply to]	Can't Post

Koinutz,
"I think the piece the Hwong has is not obvious, and this dealer has once mentioned to me that this is one of the characteristics for potential big fish."

This kohaku was chosen for its potential to grow like a Mike Tyson but not a long koi. It is a challenge to grow kois hoping that they will be long and thick. But easier to to achieve thickness but not necessary long. Give me a 75cm Mike Tyson anytime. The pic may not show the thick backbone, but this koi was chosen because it has a thick backbone. It also has a high shoulder when view from the side. BUT I agree that it may not grow long.

"Among the 5-6 pieces left in this dealer place at that time (including my and Hwong piece), he mentioned to me a few pieces are Medium size fish, which is either the pattern or body will not made the fish look good or grow to the size of Jumbo."
Wah, I hope this does not include my Kohaku but then again medium to him is below 80cm?

Mohan
"Now that I am ok, I logged on and found a parliamentary session - the usually vociferous (No offence meant) Hwong is keeping surveillance. - When are you coming in? "
Eh Boss, remember the MP who said �boleh masuk sikit�? He got BBQ-ued. SO when it is hot, don�t get into kitchen!

Larry,
"I consider the one you posted a keeper. As this one puts on greater size the odome will become irrelevant. (Take a look at this years BKKS GC"

Larry, Yes, this koi has the big fish pattern. but when the white and Hi is so briiliant this young, I m quite certain it is a male koi. I m keeping it a while longer just to see.

The BKKS GC, She look like a Submarine. Looks very imposing when viewed from the front but not so nice from behind. But the Hi is so thick!

Cheers

larz1
Koi Kichi

Jun 27, 2007, 8:00 PM

Post #37 of 69 (2550 views)
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Re: [HWONG] HWONG'S Momotaro Eagle Bloodline Tosais [In reply to]	Can't Post

On the BKKS GC absolutely EVERYTHING is THICK!!! It is a truly massive fish. Keep an eye on things over at K.S. JR has pictures of it going back to when it was tosai that he's going to be posting soon. It should be quite interesting to see the transformation of this one over the years to bring it to where it is now.

Several members of our local club have received GC honors at the last 2 shows in our region with Koi from Waddy. Tim Waddington and one of their other staff members (I can't remember his name right now Blush

) were at our local show again this year. They were busy helping handle fish for the Judges most of the time, but I did get to spend a bit of time talking with them. Good people with an outstanding eye for quality.

Mohan Ghandi
Member

Jul 29, 2007, 11:42 PM

Post #38 of 69 (2409 views)
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Hi there,

On 31.07.07 the foursome will celebrate their first birthday.I presume that it will be apt to share their progress with you.

2 Step (47cm) Smallest of the four � slow eater.

3 Step (55cm) Putting on bulk � I expect it to blow up.

Hkk
Mohan. Cool

(This post was edited by Mohan Ghandi on Jul 29, 2007, 11:49 PM)

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IMG_3380.JPG (32.5 KB)

Mohan Ghandi
Member

Jul 29, 2007, 11:54 PM

Post #39 of 69 (2401 views)
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53cm Good eater and has a good body for a male � not flabby.

3 Step (56cm) Lately Vincent came over to my place. He commented that this koi is the best of the tosais brought in from the batch l in terms of growth and beauty � I was floored- Of course

Well, what is your birthday compliments?

Hkk
Mohan. Cool

(This post was edited by Mohan Ghandi on Jul 30, 2007, 12:00 AM)

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koinutx
Koi Lover

Jul 30, 2007, 9:01 AM

Post #40 of 69 (2384 views)
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Mohan,

the last piece show very nice white skin. The other 3 are not so white, is it due to diet, (but all fish in same pond, right?)

btw, did you re-confirm the sex of your fish, that is still 2 male and 2 female?

For this bloodline, what do you think is the characteristic of the female? like whiter head? round pec fin, longish body?

The 3rd fish, with a few Hi marking on the head, do have a very round pec fin, altho it is a male as mentioned in your earlier post. Maybe this one change from male to female? Shocked

of course I think the best is still look at the anal. For your four, is the anal shape fully developed?

Anyway, all your fish grow very well, regardless of male/female. Even your smallest is probably still one of the bigger fish for a tosai. Cool

Mohan Ghandi
Member

Aug 1, 2007, 10:52 PM

Post #41 of 69 (2322 views)
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In Reply To

Dear Koinutx,

Thanks for your heart warming comments.

the last piece show very nice white skin. The other 3 are not so white, is it due to diet, (but all fish in same pond, right?)
- I noticed that my shiroji keep changing due to food and water condition. Heavy protein and colour food and dirty filters seems to affect the shiroji.

btw, did you re-confirm the sex of your fish, that is still 2 male and 2 female?
- It is 2 females and 2 males.

For this bloodline, what do you think is the characteristic of the female? like whiter head? round pec fin, longish body?
- The characteristics are short bulky body with protruding eyes. The hallmark is that tha kois are fantastic eaters.

The 3rd fish, with a few Hi marking on the head, do have a very round pec fin, altho it is a male as mentioned in your earlier post. Maybe this one change from male to female?
- It is male and is comparable to females - characteristics of Momo kois.

of course I think the best is still look at the anal. For your four, is the anal shape fully developed?
- I confirmed the sex by looking at the anal - appears to be fully developed.

- I noticed that you posted your Dainichi showas. I like the last two. The shiroji is outstanding. The first and third will look better when the sumi develops on the head.

Hkk
Mohan. Cool

koinutx
Koi Lover

Aug 27, 2007, 10:03 PM

Post #42 of 69 (2221 views)
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Mohan and all,

Here is an update on my kohaku.
sorry for the bad pic.

But 1 point very clear is that the body mass is not there.
The fish is long, measured at 43cm last Sunday 19 Aug.

Someone told me that this is male. Frown

I've not check myself. Will probably let it grow further first then check.

Mohan Ghandi
Member

Aug 28, 2007, 9:38 PM

Post #43 of 69 (2176 views)
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Re: [koinutx] Momotaro Eagle Bloodline Tosais [In reply to]	Can't Post

HI Koinutx
THanks for sharing.
Your koi has not put on volume probably becus it is a male.
Perhaps, you should try sinking food.
Hkk
Mohan. Cool

koinutx
Koi Lover

Aug 28, 2007, 10:10 PM

Post #44 of 69 (2170 views)
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Mohan,

I agreed that it could be the food.
I was feeding sinking Saki Colour, Wheatgerm and Momotaro White

I've just started on Hi Silk21 and Saki Hi Growth sinking, a couple of weeks back and I think it is slightly fatter now.

I hope it will put on more vol.
Laugh

koinutx
Koi Lover

Jan 2, 2008, 5:55 PM

Post #45 of 69 (1707 views)
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A update on my Kohaku.

Date : 1 Jan 08
Size : 56cm, Female Cool

Hi is not strong Crazy

Body so.so.

thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

Jan 2, 2008, 9:38 PM

Post #46 of 69 (1691 views)
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Re: [koinutx] Momotaro Eagle Bloodline Tosais [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi koinutx,

When I compared your eagle kohaku to Koi@kit's eagle bloodline kohaku in the Brunei section, I think kit
has managed to successfully achieved an astonishing fast growth rate of 35cm in a 3 months period and
on top of all that he has also managed to improve on the beni, shiroji and skin luster quality as well.

Both of your ponds has the Bakki Shower installation and the constant usage of purification powder.
It may be an interesting exercise to figure out what are the contributing rearing factors that differentiate
the two very different quality in the koi. Is it the sunlight exposure? foods? water quality? koi/pond ratio?

If we could determine the reasons, hopefully we may improve our pond filtration system further. Thank you.

Best Regards,
Thiam Hwa

koinutx
Koi Lover

Jan 2, 2008, 10:13 PM

Post #47 of 69 (1681 views)
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Thiam Hwa,

I think the size of pond could be main contribution to the growth rate.

As for shiroji and beni, this koi has started with a weak beni and yellowish head. The body was not bulk at all and for a moment, I was suspecting it to be a Male. It is only after I feed her with FD Primo (pocket ouch! Pirate

) then she start to be slightly bulky.
But if you compare to Mohan's or KoiKit's fish....this is nothing (in term of colour, skin and body).

I've been using sinking Saki Hikari Growth and Hi-silk 21 before this.

I've try out 3 weeks of Sakai Colour, the beni didn't improve alot, but start to see some weak beni surface. i'm suspecting whether those were surgical marking! Crazy

Anyway, I've send this fish into a 160tons pond, and let's see whether any improvement in the next 6 mths. Tongue

btw, I've a Shusui that grow from 30cm to 60cm with very nice bulky body during the same period in my pond. so I think the main different is the quality of fish.

koi@kit
Senior Member

Jan 3, 2008, 8:27 AM

Post #48 of 69 (1656 views)
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Hi Thiamhwa and koinutx..

just a point i wud like to share, my eagle bloodline kohaku was kept at my 6ton ton for 2 mth b4 she was finally move to my 20 ton pond.. in dat 6 ton pond pH is slightly below 7, Tds as low as 50ppm. as for the 20 tonner ph 7 to 7.5 tds ard 80ppm.. when she was in the 6 ton pond there r 25 koi size 30cm to 60cm. Crazy

i guess koinutx is correct when he said the quality of koi play a part but arent they from the same source, same agent?
hehehhe.. Unsure

..

best rgds
kit

koinutx
Koi Lover

Jan 3, 2008, 8:45 AM

Post #49 of 69 (1654 views)
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Re: [koi@kit] Momotaro Eagle Bloodline Tosais [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Kit,

Same agent, same batch, but there will be a differences, if you pay 5 digits, 4 digits, and 3 digits for the fish. Crazy

The hi for this fish was never strong. Frown

My was the 'leftover', and was told from other hobbyists that this fish was selling at 3 digits in the start, and raise to 4 digit as the fish grow bigger in size. My purchase was in Mar/Apr period... Laugh

In fact, if you look at the circle area, not sure whether those are beni removed previously, and now they ar surfacing....esp the shoulder area. Pirate

koi@kit
Senior Member

Jan 3, 2008, 9:49 AM

Post #50 of 69 (1645 views)
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Re: [koinutx] Momotaro Eagle Bloodline Tosais [In reply to]	Can't Post

hi koinutx..

i got mine in august, cud it b another left over?? Crazy

..

i m no expert interm of scle removal or plastic surgery.. heheheh.. may b mohan can help us here..

rgds

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