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Omosako Shiro Tosai

larz1
Koi Kichi

Jan 21, 2008, 8:48 PM

Post #1 of 23 (3080 views)
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Omosako Shiro Tosai	Can't Post

We have just purchased an Omo Tosai for a gowout contest.
It will be arriving at our home in a week or so, but here is the picture I selected her from for your comments, good or bad.
I will of course post another picture when we receive her, as this pic is from 12/04/2007
The size of all the Koi in the growout were 4-6" in December and the contest will be judged by Omosako in March of 2009.
The shiro has a very translucent sheen to it in the picture which was a major consideration.
While the sumi is heavy at this point, my guess is that it is baby sumi, that will go down considerably before coming back up in a more consolidated and much smaller pattern. There are 150 fish in the competition.

blewuk
Koi Lover

Feb 1, 2008, 10:19 AM

Post #2 of 23 (2977 views)
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Re: [larz1] Omosako Shiro Tosai [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi larz1..., it looks too black for me! Will the sumi decrease as it grows? I heard that the sumi will increase when the fish grows, so it will get more black later on??

larz1
Koi Kichi

Feb 1, 2008, 7:48 PM

Post #3 of 23 (2925 views)
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Re: [blewuk] Omosako Shiro Tosai [In reply to]	Can't Post

Shiro's can be VERY unpredictable, so there is always the risk that one like this may go too dark, but then again it could also fade out to Shiro Muji Shocked

... So I'll just cross my fingers and hope for the best Wink

She just arrived at our home 2 days ago, and here are some pictures after un-bagging before placing in QT.

And one from the next morning in QT after having time to de-stress after the flight here.
Notice the tear midway down the dorsal fin. With time and good water it should completely heal.

As you can see, the baby sumi has faded a bit from shipping stress, but it does give a good look at the scale definition.
I made this selection after viewing results from several growouts with Omosako as well as some of his own development pictures and decided to take the risk on a dark baby with good skin. It will be a very interesting year to see how this fish develops along with all the rest in the competition. The females used for breeding in this contest were Musashi and Panda, so they all have a good foundation to build on.

Mohan Ghandi
Member

Feb 12, 2008, 10:13 PM

Post #4 of 23 (2811 views)
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Re: [larz1] Omosako Shiro Tosai [In reply to]	Can't Post

HI Larzl,
Thanks for sharing.
I dare not comment at this stage because a lot of changes can be expected - I stress once again
that a lot of unexpected & unbelievable changes can be expected. But I am only afraid of the
extensive sumi covering the head & the body at this stage. We have to hope for the best &
perhaps pray hard as the breeder puts it( when down here)
Interesting to get updates from you - it will make this forum more lively.
Have FUN.
Hkk
Mohan. Cool

larz1
Koi Kichi

Feb 13, 2008, 9:57 PM

Post #5 of 23 (2737 views)
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Re: [Mohan Ghandi] Omosako Shiro Tosai [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks Mohan. Crazy people buy Shiro Tosai on purpose, so I guess my secret is out Crazy

.
We spent a good bit of time studying the shiro's from several growouts in Singapore before making our selection as well as spending time on Omo's website viewing some of his progress photos. What we finally concluded is that they are all a risk (even for Omosako himself). We finally went with one that strongly resembled one he had posted development photo's from Tosai to Sansai and crossed our fingers...
Thusfar we are pleased. The dorsal fin was torn in shipment, but has already healed about 90%. Her head is well proportioned and she has a very large mouth. An aggressive feeder from the start, so good growth should not be an issue. I'll be switching her over to a higher protein pellet in a week or so, and then to a private recipe I've been wanting to try for some time. There are small windows of shiroji behind the eyes and on the gill plates that we hope will expand over time, but we expect to wait many years to see how well we really did. Koi keeping takes MUCH patience, but you already know that Smile

.
She will have to remain indoors for at least another month, as we are still going through cold weather here, so it will be some time before she has a chance to swim in a large pond. In any case, we shall enjoy the education we receive from watching her grow in the years to come.

Mohan Ghandi
Member

Apr 22, 2008, 11:19 PM

Post #6 of 23 (2126 views)
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Re: [larz1] Omosako Shiro Tosai [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Larzl,
How is your Shiro developing? What about an update?
Hkk
Mohan. Cool

larz1
Koi Kichi

Apr 24, 2008, 7:38 PM

Post #7 of 23 (2047 views)
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Re: [Mohan Ghandi] Omosako Shiro Tosai [In reply to]	Can't Post

Good morning Mohan Smile

Your timing is excellent as I was planning to bowl her up today for some fresh pictures. I have a few of her in quarantine for now, and the changes thusfar have been exactly what I had hoped for so my fingers remain comfortably crossed for good luck Wink

Our weather here has been typically unstable as it is spring, so she remains in an indoor tank for now.
These two shots are from 6 weeks ago and show several minor changes. The sumi on the face had begun to retract slightly giving an indication that it might form a more desirable pattern. The motoguro has also been pulling in toward the base of the fins forming a tighter look on all of the fins.

larz1
Koi Kichi

Apr 24, 2008, 10:05 PM

Post #8 of 23 (2031 views)
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Re: [Mohan Ghandi] Omosako Shiro Tosai [In reply to]	Can't Post

Here are a few more from last week showing further changes, especially on the head.
I also included a 3rd photo of 2 tankmates in the QT. Please take notice the little Sanke in the picture. This one has had a small sumi spot on the forehead only and a small hi plate next to it for the first 8 months of its life. (it is a pond grade fish we had left from last years spawn). The Sanke in the first two photo's with the shiro is the same Koi. It gives an indication of how Sumi friendly our water appears to be, and I hope the Shiro develops as well as the little Sanke seems to be.

larz1
Koi Kichi

Apr 26, 2008, 7:53 PM

Post #9 of 23 (1974 views)
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I got her bowled and photo'd. This pictures aren't the greatest by any means, but at least you can see the changes.
Her skin looks a lot better in person than in the pics.
The face has really begun to consolidate into a better pattern, while the rest of the body is going up and down as expected. I'm also pleased with the growth rate. From 7" to 9" in an indoor quarantine tank isn't too bad.

thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

Apr 27, 2008, 11:52 PM

Post #10 of 23 (1921 views)
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Re: [larz1] Omosako Shiro Tosai [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Larz1,

It is very interesting to see the dramatic sumi pattern changes taking shape on this Shiro
especially on the tail, pectoral fins, shoulder and head area.
All the sumi at these places has consolidated nicely into quite a balance sumi pattern at this
stage. Since sumi pattern on a Shiro changes the most when the koi is still a tosai or nisai,
we will expect to see the sumi appearing and disappearing over the next couple of years.
This koi also has a few strong characteristic for eg. a good body structure, clean shiroji
on the shoulder and sumi on the gill cover.
With that said, I think this koi has potential in the future. Please keep us posted again.
Thank you.

Best Regards,
Thiam Hwa

(This post was edited by thiamhwa on Apr 28, 2008, 12:09 AM)

larz1
Koi Kichi

Apr 28, 2008, 12:34 AM

Post #11 of 23 (1913 views)
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Re: [thiamhwa] Omosako Shiro Tosai [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks Thiam for your comments.
This is our first attempt with Shiro's, so it will be a long and educational experience helped greatly by what we've learned from some of the previous growout's we followed in the Singapore forum.
I am very satisfied thus far, but it will be a long journey to maturity with many changes along the way.
When the contest began I used photoshop to conjure up an image of what I saw in my own mind as the possible future for her. It may be completely unrealistic, but it kept me entertained and so far, so good Wink

thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

Apr 28, 2008, 11:50 PM

Post #12 of 23 (1854 views)
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Re: [larz1] Omosako Shiro Tosai [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Larz1,

Photoshop is certainly a very useful tool for making the task much easier with predicting the
future potential of a koi.
I think the pattern conjure up on the body may have some resemblance with the present
pattern on the Shiro. In my prediction, the dorsal fin and the tail should be finish up in white
as well plus some added ray striped of sumi finishing on the tail fin and pectoral fin motoguro.

Best Regards,
Thiam Hwa

larz1
Koi Kichi

Apr 29, 2008, 2:51 AM

Post #13 of 23 (1843 views)
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Re: [thiamhwa] Omosako Shiro Tosai [In reply to]	Can't Post

You are very observant. The tail and dorsal fin have in fact whitened considerably already just as you suspected.

Mohan Ghandi
Member

May 10, 2008, 11:35 AM

Post #14 of 23 (1641 views)
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Re: [larz1] Omosako Shiro Tosai [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hey Larz1 & Thiamwha,

Sorry for the belated response.

Once again ,Thiamwha has come to the rescue. His comments are as good as mine. I agree on all fours with his comments. Recently, i purchased Shiro
Utsuris in Singapore & Malaysia. I will post them as they develop.

Thanks for your link - ATB video tv 2.00 - It was an entertaining experience. i noticed that the Sanke that won best in variety in the All Japan Show was the Grand Champion in the 1st Asia Show in Singapore. I strongly recommend everyone to view this link.
Hkk
Mohan. Cool

larz1
Koi Kichi

May 10, 2008, 8:05 PM

Post #15 of 23 (1579 views)
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Thanks Mohan, and yes, that video is very enlightening and entertaining.
I really appreciated the frankness of the dealer who was talking about improving the quality of imports to Europe, and Kentaro's laugh when asked about the other "competitors" made me laugh with him. He was trying so hard to find a way to be diplomatic... Wink

larz1
Koi Kichi

May 30, 2008, 9:22 PM

Post #16 of 23 (1269 views)
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Well Aria 51 (that is her name) and friends finally got to go out for some fresh air and sunshine today.
Here are some preliminary shots from the move and we're still pleased. Measured at 10 1/4" and looks to be bulking up nicely. Still very pleased with the way the pattern is developing and I really think it will balance well as more growth stretches things out. Pretty decent growth in both length and girth considering it has all been in a smallish indoor Quarantine tank up to now.

larz1
Koi Kichi

Jul 3, 2008, 11:32 AM

Post #17 of 23 (883 views)
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Well, it was time for the midpoint pictures to be taken for our little contest so I thought I'd share them here as well.
One month in an outside tank (still rather small compared to our pond, but easier to catch for the update photo's).
She grew another 1 3/4" and is now a full 12" long. Considering the fact that she was in a small indoor qt for 4 months and only 1 month outside I've very pleased with 5" growth on 4 months.

The body conformation isn't quite as good as I would like, but when she moves into the bigger pond I expect the tail tube to thicken considerably and conform to the rest of the frame. There is a small tear in the left pec fin from the net, but it will heal quickly in good water.
the pattern continues to take shape nicely, especially on the face. Moving outside definitely helped to strengthen the sumi and at this stage we continue to be happy with our choice. Here are a few pics for your comments, good or bad.
Please be frank and remember I am a STUDENT of Koi, not a master Blush

, so your observations are most welcome.

monscine
Koi Lover

Jul 4, 2008, 12:46 AM

Post #18 of 23 (834 views)
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Re: [larz1] Omosako Shiro Tosai [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi larz,

what a dramatic and amazing changes have been made!!! I can't believe that the sumi will be like the last bowl. When you post the pics on april, to me the sumi is vanishing and still weak. The same within May. But when you put the pics of this July, abrakadabra magic happen Cool

Real cool man!!! Please keep us update, okey?

Cheers,

larz1
Koi Kichi

Jul 4, 2008, 1:00 AM

Post #19 of 23 (830 views)
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Re: [monscine] Omosako Shiro Tosai [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thank your for your kind words Smile

We of course have had the advantage of seeing the sumi build, go down, and re-build again over the past few months, so the good results from the move outside only exceeded our expectations by a little, but the great outdoors definitely agrees with her Cool

. I think what may please me the most is the fact that in 1 months time she grew 1 3/4" AND strengthened the Sumi at the same time. I'm really hoping that bodes well for the future, but much, much, time will have to pass before I can think about celebrating Wink

thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

Jul 4, 2008, 1:44 AM

Post #20 of 23 (825 views)
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Re: [larz1] Omosako Shiro Tosai [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Larz1,

It appears that moving Aria 51 to an outside tank has done wonders! The only concerned here is
the body conformation as your kind-self had mentioned. I hope that Aria 51 will be move into a bigger
pond soon for better body conformation development.

I am with you with regards to the nice development of the Sumi pattern on the forehead and the rest
of the body. For me, the merits of Aria 51 are :-

1) The unique striking Hachiware pattern on the forehead balances with the large Sumi pattern
on the latter half of the body and hence created the overall pattern balance on this Shiro.

2) The Sumi on the pectoral fins has consolidated to form a beautiful Motoguro which is an ideal
appearance at this stage of Shiro's development. From the sets of photos development shown,
I think this Shiro has the fast pattern maturing and hence the Motoguro will not change much
from now on, IMHO.

3) As for the latter half of the body Sumi pattern development, I predict the Kage Sumi on the left
between the small black patch of Sumi at the tail tube and the large patch of Sumi at the end
of the dorsal fin will disappear. When that happens, the appearance of Shiroji on the tail section
will further add beauty to this Shiro.

4) If the photos are correct, the pure white Shiroji located on the shoulder area is a good indication
of a future snow-white skin.

Best Regards,
Thiam Hwa

larz1
Koi Kichi

Jul 4, 2008, 4:47 AM

Post #21 of 23 (814 views)
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Re: [thiamhwa] Omosako Shiro Tosai [In reply to]	Can't Post

You have GOOD eyes Cool

I included the different angle photos in hopes that the overall body pattern would catch someones eye, and I believe you and I are seeing the same future possibilities. I likewise think the shiro in the tail tube will spread in the way you describe and add to the overall balance of the appearance. (at least that is what I'm hoping... Sly

) The tail tube is thickening up better already, and I believe the deeper water will add to the building of an overall well balanced frame.

Mohan Ghandi
Member

Jul 6, 2008, 1:33 PM

Post #22 of 23 (714 views)
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In Reply To

HI Larzl,
Thanks for sharing.
I dare not comment at this stage because a lot of changes can be expected - I stress once again
that a lot of unexpected & unbelievable changes can be expected.

Hi Larzl, As i said earlier your Shiro had gone into a transformation-no one will agree that it is the same Shiro. WELL DONE KEEP IT UP- you are no student another guruji. Looks like a female???
Hkk
Mohan. Cool

larz1
Koi Kichi

Jul 7, 2008, 10:19 PM

Post #23 of 23 (587 views)
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Re: [Mohan Ghandi] Omosako Shiro Tosai [In reply to]	Can't Post

We're still not certain of the sex. Hopefully by summers end we will be able to confirm, but the growth and overall form does give me high hopes that she will be a she indeed Cool

In Reply To

HI Larzl,
Thanks for sharing.
I dare not comment at this stage because a lot of changes can be expected - I stress once again
that a lot of unexpected & unbelievable changes can be expected.

Hi Larzl, As i said earlier your Shiro had gone into a transformation-no one will agree that it is the same Shiro. WELL DONE KEEP IT UP- you are no student another guruji. Looks like a female???

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