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Home: KOI Talk: Koi Appreciation:
Please help to identify the following koi

 






 


Webmaster
New User / Moderator

Aug 15, 2000, 11:22 PM

Post #1 of 23 (3226 views)
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Please help to identify the following koi Can't Post

Picture submitted by Kenny.





Please help keeny to identify the above two koi


Gene
Koi Lover

Aug 16, 2000, 5:50 AM

Post #2 of 23 (3226 views)
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1. Hi Utsuri
2. Tancho Showa

------------------
Gene, East Tennessee, USA

(This post was edited by Gene on Mar 8, 2001, 3:00 PM)


Wee Chong
Koi Lover

Aug 16, 2000, 1:32 PM

Post #3 of 23 (3226 views)
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1)Huitsuri
2)Tancho sanke(for this koi,i'm not sure about it cos.this koi has black in the tancho.i have one similar koi in my pond too.and will post in as soon as i got my scanner.
Thanks and Rdgs!


Hans Ham
Deleted

Aug 17, 2000, 4:59 AM

Post #4 of 23 (3226 views)
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Hello,
1) Hi Utsuri
2) Tancho Showa

Hans


kennylwk
Koi Lover

Aug 18, 2000, 8:34 AM

Post #5 of 23 (3226 views)
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Thanks for your help guy!


mark gardner
Koi Lover

Aug 18, 2000, 9:11 AM

Post #6 of 23 (3226 views)
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Hi guys.

The top fish is not an Utsuri. It is an Aka Bekko. This assumes that there is no red on the white on the underside.

The second fish is a tancho sanke, not showa.

Mark


Gene
Koi Lover

Aug 18, 2000, 5:24 PM

Post #7 of 23 (3226 views)
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Both of these fish are young. The sumi will continue to develop. An Aka Bekko is a red fish with black markings, no black on the head, and can have white in the pectorial fins.

A Tancho Sanke should not have any sumi on the head, but the Tancho Showa should have sumi on the head.

1. Hi Utsuri
2. Tancho Showa

------------------
Gene, East Tennessee, USA


mark gardner
Koi Lover

Aug 19, 2000, 6:32 AM

Post #8 of 23 (3226 views)
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Sorry, I have to disagree.

Just because the tancho has black on the red spot doesn't neccessarily mean it is a showa. Strictly speaking i agree it shouldn't have it, however this fish is clearly of Sanke lineage in my opinion.

The other fish has no indication of an Utsuri pattern at all. In my opinion it is a bekko without doubt.

Mark



Gene
Koi Lover

Aug 19, 2000, 7:23 AM

Post #9 of 23 (3226 views)
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Hello Mark,

I'll agree that the first fish does not have an Utsuri pattern, however I still believe the second fish is a Tancho Showa.

In my experience the sumi in Showa takes a long time to fully develop. I can't be sure from a photo, but I'd say the fish is about 6-8 inches, and it looks like there is a lot more sumi in the future.

------------------
Gene, East Tennessee, USA


Mark
Koi Kichi

Aug 19, 2000, 10:49 AM

Post #10 of 23 (3226 views)
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The 1st picture can either be a hi utsuri or a aka bekko. As utusri, it has all the black to qualifies the claim except for the orengi body. However if its aka bekko, the caudal fin should be orengi like the pectoral fins. The existing speckled black back paterns is worth considering.

In order to qualify for a showa in the 2nd picture, she must have a very important characteristic known as "Motoguro". Motoguro is the black spot at the base of the pectoral fins. If she has that, its a showa tancho.

This is just my opinion.


hph
Koi Lover

Aug 19, 2000, 12:23 PM

Post #11 of 23 (3226 views)
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Hello ,
Sorry .. i have to disagree also.The first fish, it has got all the black of a hi-utsuri as the black of the utsuri and the black of the showa are the same and also any bekko does not have any black marking on it's head if it does it is not a bekko.
But, if you would know the colour on the belly that would solve the problem.
The second fish, is 100% a tancho showa. even it's black marking are of a showa not of a shanke.
Any tancho which have black markings cannot be a tancho shanke. And this fish is caled as a Tancho Showa.
Have you ever see a Kindai Showa ?
If you ever did then you would know it.
As a Kindai Showa is many times seen as a shanke.
Have a nice day Smile
Regards,
Hans
(ps. kenny check the colour of the belly of your first fish)


Wee Chong
Koi Lover

Aug 19, 2000, 1:14 PM

Post #12 of 23 (3226 views)
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Hi to all!
How about if the tancho has black in the mouth?with black,i think is showa.no black is detected then i think it's sanke.is this right?pls correct me if i'm wrong.
Thanks and Rdgs!


Ben
Koi Lover

Aug 20, 2000, 12:40 AM

Post #13 of 23 (3226 views)
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The second koi to be me definitely a Tancho Showa. The sumi pattern alone tell that it is of showa lineage.


Ralph
New User

Aug 20, 2000, 6:05 AM

Post #14 of 23 (3226 views)
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Despite all people thinking the second fish is a tancho showa, I am very sorry, this is true tancho sanke.

First of all, a bit of sumi on the head doesn't make a sanke to be a showa. You will have to look far closer to other elements. One of the most important elements here is the sumi in total. Take pictures of showa and sanke next to each other, and examine them closely. Then you will clearly see that almost every showa sumi marking crosses the lateral line, even those of kindai.

The picture clearly shows that the sumi on this Koi stays above the lateral and each in small markings. Perfectly sanke sumi, though in a heavy rate. For example, look at jinbei sanke, this lineage is known for large jetblack sumipatterns on sanke, some say they are showa, but there not, true sanke but with a little more sumi.
T
he sumi pattern as shown now, will not develop any further by means of pattern. The amount of sumi will stay the same, so this fish will not be a showa in a few years.

The motoguro is a kind of tricky here. Left it's typical showa and right it's sanke.
Also the tail and dorsal fin are a little showa-like. But despite of all this. This is true sanke lineage.

The other fish truly is a Hi Utsuri. Some of the above can also be fitted on this fish. But then in the other way around.

Hope I have been of any assistance
Regards
Ralph


Peter Chang
Koi Lover

Aug 20, 2000, 12:53 PM

Post #15 of 23 (3226 views)
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Quote
Originally posted by Webmaster:
Picture submitted by Kenny.





Please help kenny to identify the above two koi



Hi To All and especially Kenny,

I personally felt that this is a very constructive topic to identify koi varieties.

Here are some description of koi varieties of 'TANCHO' from a book for all of you, hope that help.


Quote
"Tancho is the name of the Japanese crane which has a red spot on its head. Because the Tancho bird is so big and so distinctive, the same is expected of the fish called the "Tancho". Tancho Koi first got its name by appearing as a sub-variety or a type of Kohaku. The Kohaku is a two colored fish, being red and white. So certainly there is a Tancho Kohaku. This is a fish which only has a round red mark on its head with the rest of its body being white. Other varieties of Tancho are recognized. The Bekko, which is a group of fish which has small Sumi or black spots on a uniform base color, may also have Tancho with Shiro Bekko are called "Tancho Sanke." "Shiro", by the way, refers to white.



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In Tancho Sanke, there should not be any black marking on the head. The black markings, or Sumi, should be as black as coal and should be clear, distinct, and interesting. There should be a few black marks on the pectoral fins to indicate the quality of the genetic lines. Fishes which have these black marks are considered fixed strains.



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Tancho Showa, the modern Tancho, must have the characteristic round red Hi spot on the head together withe a body form and color markings of the Shiro Utsuri. Shiro Utsuri are black fishes with white markings. Of course, white markings on black is also one way to interpret shiro Utsuri. However, consider a black and white fish with a red Hi and you have the Tancho Sanke. Tancho Sanke is merely a three colored fish the red Hi being on the head, the white body and black markings strewn delicately and tastefully around the body.



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Utsuri Mono is a wide ranging group of Nishikigoi. Basically they are a black fish. The black fish is colored with a second color. The second color can either be yellow, red, or white. Other colors have been appearing now and again, but the strain has not been fixed.



Quote
Ki Utsuri is a black fish with yellow or orange coloring. The yellow or orange coloring must have a lightning pattern or a pattern which is interesting. The black pattern, of course, is the base color so it is not judged, only the yellow pattern. The black must be as black as coal. The yellow or orange color should be uniform and attractive.



Quote
HI UTSURI is red and black. All of the fins must be prominently marked with black, as in all Utsuri Mono, and the red should be as intense and fiery as possible.



Quote
The Shiro Utsuri is a black and white fish. Actually it is white on black where most of the color is black. Again, all of the fins must be prominently marked with black and the whites must be snow-white. When there is more white than black, the fish is called a Bekko.



Quote
Bekko is a group of Koi whose basic color is white, yellow, oranges, or red and which has spots, blotches, or patterns of black. It differs from Utsuri because the black marking are much smaller and more dispersed.



Quote
AKA BEKKO are black spots basically on a red fish. Shiro Bekko has black spots on a white fish. There are many, many other combinations. Basically all of them are defective Sanke fish. As you konw, Taisho Sanke and Showa Sanke are three-colored fish usually white, red, and black. In Bekko, one of the colors is missing.


After reading the above description, very obvious that the 1st. koi is a "Aka Bekko", and the 2nd. koi is a "Tancho Sanke".

p/s: The mentioned book is available at Nationl Library BP BRANCH.


kennylwk
Koi Lover

Aug 21, 2000, 10:03 AM

Post #16 of 23 (3226 views)
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Hi hph,
The colour of the belly of the first is orange.



kennylwk
Koi Lover

Aug 21, 2000, 10:15 AM

Post #17 of 23 (3226 views)
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Hi hph,
The colour of the belly of the first is orange.



mark gardner
Koi Lover

Aug 21, 2000, 6:56 PM

Post #18 of 23 (3226 views)
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I think that we need to consider here that many descriptions given of how a particular variety should look relate to the 'perfect' specimen.

In the tancho example above, I agree a top class tancho sanke shouldn't have sumi on the tancho spot. If a tancho spot has sumi on it, as in this example, it doesn't stop it being a tancho sanke it just isn't a perfect example.


hph
Koi Lover

Aug 22, 2000, 12:27 AM

Post #19 of 23 (3226 views)
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Hello
The photo should have been taken from the front ,to see the lateral line on both side,
not all KINDAI showa have a MOTOGURO but it is still a showa .

Se this Books of Koi Varieties:

1)The cult of koi,by Michugo Tamadachi .
2)koi varieties, by Herbert Axelrod.
3)manual to nishikigoi&modern nishikigoi,
by Takeo Kuroki
4)Peter Waddington ,koi kichi.
o mistake it is still a tancho showa,and I start to enjoy this

Rdgs Hans



Paul
New User

Aug 25, 2000, 8:53 AM

Post #20 of 23 (3226 views)
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Picture 1:
This is a koi that should have been culled away very early on. Looking at the sumi formation on the body it looks like it's from sanke bloodline. It is definitely not a sumimono type koi. You can say it is a very poor aka bekko, with way too much sumi on the fins.

Picture 2:
Tancho sanke. The sumi formation on the body(round spots irrespective of size instead of large or small strips of sumi on the body) also show that this is a sanke bloodline koi, but a very poor example as well.


hph
Koi Lover

Sep 12, 2000, 1:48 AM

Post #21 of 23 (3226 views)
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Hello Kenny
Imay have been wrong on the second koi, pls. check if the Tancho has black in the mouth,if it has then it is a poor Exemplar of a SHOWA .
The first koi is a HI-UTSURI this is very easy to see on the fins and head section.

For Wee Chon
you a very right about the black in the mouth,if this tancho have this black then it is a Showa

Rdgs Hans


kennylwk
Koi Lover

Sep 12, 2000, 1:52 PM

Post #22 of 23 (3226 views)
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Hi hph,
there is no black in the mouth.



WildBillKelso
Koi Lover

Jun 21, 2001, 3:33 AM

Post #23 of 23 (3226 views)
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Boy Paul, I hope your children are exceptable, hate to see you cull them!! Smile

 
 
 



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