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Would you call this a tategoi?

Roger89
Koi Lover

Nov 21, 2008, 10:55 PM

Post #1 of 22 (716 views)
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Would you call this a tategoi?	Can't Post

Hi all,

I have been keeping this koi little for a few weeks. I would say it is one of my best purchases so far. For the price paid and for a locally bred koi, I think this koi has one of the most interesting pattern, definition and a promising body shape. I'm not sure if I am overrating it, so tell me, do you think this koi has potential? Smile

Thanks for viewing.

PH8
Koi Lover

Nov 21, 2008, 11:03 PM

Post #2 of 22 (712 views)
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Re: [Roger89] Would you call this a tategoi? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Roger,

Lovely koi. Is it a wagoi or a doitsu? Looks like a normal wagoi to me but can't tell for sure. It looks pretty finished and would be a decent bet for baby champion.

Cheers,
Paul

Roger89
Koi Lover

Nov 21, 2008, 11:18 PM

Post #3 of 22 (705 views)
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Re: [PH8] Would you call this a tategoi? [In reply to]	Can't Post

hey PH8. You are very aware, yes it is a doitsu. It's like baby touch when I held it. hehe. I hope it is not finished, not at this size and age. It's still quite orangie though..

PH8
Koi Lover

Nov 21, 2008, 11:23 PM

Post #4 of 22 (701 views)
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Re: [Roger89] Would you call this a tategoi? [In reply to]	Can't Post

The finish looked very doitsu-like to me, but I thought I could make out some scales towards the back end, so I wasn't very sure. I think I've read that doitsu koi by nature finish relatively quickly and don't last as long as wagoi because their skin is less complex and the colour cells are more superficial. Anyway, it's a lovely koi now, enjoy it.

koi@kit
Senior Member

Nov 22, 2008, 8:57 AM

Post #5 of 22 (665 views)
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Re: [Roger89] Would you call this a tategoi? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Roger..

long time not heard... nice koi, can win show....

kemeer
Member

Nov 22, 2008, 10:33 AM

Post #6 of 22 (657 views)
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Re: [Roger89] Would you call this a tategoi? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Roger,

Nice koi you got there. Good Pattern also Wink

. But i'm with the same opinion as the others here that the doitsu here is almost finished. Just an honest opinion Smile

Hope you're not too dissapointed coz it is still a nice piece. Laugh

kemeer
Member

Nov 22, 2008, 10:43 AM

Post #7 of 22 (652 views)
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Re: [Roger89] Would you call this a tategoi? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Roger,

Seeing that you've already got a doitsu in your collection. I'd also like to suggest you to look into kumonryu varieties. Kuomnryu are very well known to change their pattern and colour in and have been called the "forever tategoi".

Check this below thread for further some discussions and information on the variety.

http://www.koi.com.my/cgi-bin/koiforum/gforum.cgi?post=61962;search_string=kumonryu;#61962

Sly

PH8
Koi Lover

Nov 22, 2008, 10:55 AM

Post #8 of 22 (648 views)
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Re: [kemeer] Would you call this a tategoi? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks for the link, Kemeer. Although I don't have any kumonryu nor any first hand experience with them, I find it a very intriguing variety due to its constant changes. Was toying around with getting one. Since the pattern constantly changes, I presume pattern will not be a factor at the point of purchase? So would body shape and potential for size be the main factors when choosing a kumonryu?

kemeer
Member

Nov 22, 2008, 11:29 AM

Post #9 of 22 (642 views)
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Re: [PH8] Would you call this a tategoi? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Paul,

Yes, you are correct Laugh

. Kumonryus are a very intrguing variety particularly because of their constant changes in pattern. So when pattern does not play much when deciding on a purchase. But to be searching for one that may have the chance to grow Jumbo, i think, the basic factors like big long head, tall body and tail height, and a thick tail tube, like when we look for potential big kois still applies to this variety Sly

. Honestly, i have yet to see a kumonryu that has grown over the 80+cm mark. Wink

PH8
Koi Lover

Nov 22, 2008, 11:39 AM

Post #10 of 22 (640 views)
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Re: [kemeer] Would you call this a tategoi? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks Kemeer. Normally doitsus don't grow as big as wagoi gosanke and ogons, although I've seen some rare shusui above 80cm. I think the size problem is because breeders have not been concentrating so much on doitsu fish but on gosanke, so we don't see them trying to cross magoi blood into doitsu lines to try increase their size Sly

My problem is that my pond is quite big. Other than the fact that I love the grace, power and majesty of BIG koi Shocked

, the problem with smaller koi is that they look even smaller in my big pond. Crazy

(This post was edited by PH8 on Nov 22, 2008, 11:42 AM)

Russell Peters
Koi Lover

Dec 1, 2008, 2:15 PM

Post #11 of 22 (465 views)
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Re: [PH8] Would you call this a tategoi? [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Hi Roger,

Lovely koi. Is it a wagoi or a doitsu? Looks like a normal wagoi to me but can't tell for sure. It looks pretty finished and would be a decent bet for baby champion.

Cheers,
Paul I think this Koi will be at its best while it is small. The Beni looks uneven and I think it will be week in the futures. I would not consider this Koi a tategoi.

http://www.pskoi.com
US Dealer and Distributor for INC
Matsunosuke

(This post was edited by Russell Peters on Dec 1, 2008, 2:19 PM)

DavidSoon
Koi Lover

Dec 1, 2008, 4:43 PM

Post #12 of 22 (433 views)
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Re: [Russell Peters] Would you call this a tategoi? [In reply to]	Can't Post

I have to agree with R.Peters that this doitsu cannot be classified as a tategoi . It will not change in pattern . What you see now on pattern is what you get if after 10 years , provided the beni dun disintegrate .

Hi R.Peters ,

Matsunosuke bloodline was very established bloodline years back , started by the father himself . Believe the brother at Izawa is doing equally well as his brother in Nigatta . Do you mind showing us some of their Gosanke from this family ?? They're pretty popular in the States and Europe as we know , but in Asia , they were deemed to be a forgotten family here , as the bigger farms and bigger names had nominated this side tha last few years . Do highlight us on some of their current beauties pls ... Sly

Cheers
David

PH8
Koi Lover

Dec 1, 2008, 4:49 PM

Post #13 of 22 (427 views)
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Re: [Russell Peters] Would you call this a tategoi? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Russell,

Good to see you here on our Malaysian board. Your contribution and experience will be a valuable addition. Yup, I think doitsus are pretty much what you see is what you get. They're normally quite finished, neat kiwa, no sashi and basically quite uncomplicated. Appreciate it while it lasts!! Sly

Cheers,
Paul

Russell Peters
Koi Lover

Dec 1, 2008, 10:05 PM

Post #14 of 22 (391 views)
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Re: [PH8] Would you call this a tategoi? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thank you for the welcome I am glad I found you. Now I have to find more time to be able to sit at my computer.

Russell

In Reply To

Cheers,
Paul

http://www.pskoi.com
US Dealer and Distributor for INC
Matsunosuke

Russell Peters
Koi Lover

Dec 1, 2008, 10:26 PM

Post #15 of 22 (381 views)
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Re: [DavidSoon] Would you call this a tategoi? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi David,

I know both Toshiyuki and Toshio Sakai but it is Toshio Sakai that we have been studying with. He has taken the "Matsunosuke" line and has done some wonderful things with it. He has developed a new type of sumi "Atarashi Sumi" over the last 20 years. It has now become very stable and he is putting it out there for everyone to see. He has just finished getting the Oyagoi ready to breed Shrio Utsuri again. The Shiro Utsuri will have the "Atarashi Sumi" and Muruzome Kiwa. It will be quite stunning. He are a few of his Koi we have just aquired. The Showa has the "Ataraishi Sumi".

In Reply To

Cheers
David

http://www.pskoi.com
US Dealer and Distributor for INC
Matsunosuke

Attachments:

Auction-120.gif (78.7 KB)

Ojiya-315.gif (84.7 KB)

Russell Peters
Koi Lover

Dec 1, 2008, 10:34 PM

Post #16 of 22 (377 views)
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Re: [Russell Peters] Would you call this a tategoi? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Here are a couple more pictures.

http://www.pskoi.com
US Dealer and Distributor for INC
Matsunosuke

Attachments:

Ojiya-209.gif (93.5 KB)

Ojiya-210.gif (94.3 KB)

thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

Dec 2, 2008, 12:47 AM

Post #17 of 22 (359 views)
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Re: [Russell Peters] Would you call this a tategoi? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Russell,

Welcome to the Malaysian Koi Forum. I am very pleased to see a very experienced and knowledgeable person of your
status participating here in the Forum. I am sure many members here will benefited greatly from your contributions.

Actually, I have always been lurking around the other websites in your part of the world and have enjoyed greatly
your postings of koi hunting trips and koi harvesting in Niigata. Your constant coverage of Toshio Sakai's quest for
the development of Atarashi Sumi and Moruzome Kiwa on the Gosanke is extremely enlightening.

I am certainly waiting anxiously to see how his new breed of Shiro Utsuri with the Atarashi Sumi quality will stand out
with the other breeders. Sadly, very few koi dealers here in Malaysia bring in Toshio Sakai koi. I can never figure out
the reasons why it is not popular among koi dealers here Unsure

.

Best Regards,
Thiam Hwa

Russell Peters
Koi Lover

Dec 2, 2008, 8:19 AM

Post #18 of 22 (327 views)
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Re: [thiamhwa] Would you call this a tategoi? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hello Thiam Hwa,

Thank you for your kind words, I really do appreciate it.

I think that Toshio Sakai is one of the most under rated breeders out there. For someone that has done so much for the developement of Koi , very few people seem to know about him. Mr. Sakai, in a sense, has a very small family business. It is run by 7 people which is quite amazing considering the volumn of Koi he produces. Even his low grade Koi has superior quality as they all have that "Matsunosuke" gene which gives them a unique skin quality. Since none of your dealers bring in Toshio Sakai I would extend an offer, to any one there, to help bring Toshio Sakai's Koi to Malaysia. I don't know what your import requirements are, or if you even have to have a dealer bring the Koi in but, with the help of Miwa Sakai, I am sure something would be possible. Also, if anyone is interested in visiting Isawa to buy some of Mr. Sakai's higher quality Koi we could book a time there and meet you in Japan. The offer is always there if you are interested.
Also, if any of your dealers are interested, I could introduce them to Mr. Sakai if they would like to import on their own.

Russell

http://www.pskoi.com
US Dealer and Distributor for INC
Matsunosuke

(This post was edited by Russell Peters on Dec 2, 2008, 8:21 AM)

deenblitzed
Koi Lover

Dec 2, 2008, 11:56 AM

Post #19 of 22 (309 views)
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Re: [Russell Peters] Would you call this a tategoi? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Is that a ranchu fan i see? Welcome to the forum Mr Peters. I'd be great if you could shed more light on kois Mr Toshio Sakai produces. The development of their bloodlines etc. I agree with thiam hwa, we don't get much coverage on the matsunosuke bloodline here in Malaysia. I also believe he & many other breeders from Niigata are underrated here since we don't get their good stuff here.

Once I asked one of our dealers why don't you bring kois from Mr Toshio Sakai? His answer was 'Well, I did bring them in. But after a few years some of the customers will come back & give me back the fish saying they were unhappy with them'. He continued telling me that the matsunosuke bloodline doesn't put on the bulk until they're yonsai or sansai (the reason why his customers unsatisfaction, no volume). It seems people here don't like to wait or not patient enough. Maybe you can enlighten us on this matter as well.

FYI, that dealer I am talking about did bring in some fishes from the Isawa Koi Farm few months back. Unfortunately he says that its still not too popular over here. Hopefully this will change.

Russell Peters
Koi Lover

Dec 2, 2008, 12:56 PM

Post #20 of 22 (296 views)
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Re: [deenblitzed] Would you call this a tategoi? [In reply to]	Can't Post

The bloodline you are talking about are the Koi Mr. Sakai breeds with magoi bloodline. These Koi grow very long but you have to be very patient. They are very skinny for many years because they grow long first and then they bulk up. Patience will pay off though as these Koi become spectacular. Mr. Sakai also breeds Koi with more traditional body types. The first picture is a Showa with magoi bloodline and the second one has a more traditionla body.

http://www.pskoi.com
US Dealer and Distributor for INC
Matsunosuke

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AJKS-895a.gif (91.5 KB)

Isawa-139a.gif (91.0 KB)

Russell Peters
Koi Lover

Dec 2, 2008, 1:03 PM

Post #21 of 22 (294 views)
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Re: [Russell Peters] Would you call this a tategoi? [In reply to]	Can't Post

So, it is possible to buy Koi from Mr. Sakai, that do have the "Matsunosuke" gene that have traditional bodies.

http://www.pskoi.com
US Dealer and Distributor for INC
Matsunosuke

(This post was edited by Russell Peters on Dec 2, 2008, 1:05 PM)

Attachments:

Ojiya-280a.gif (92.6 KB)

Ojiya-281a.gif (91.0 KB)

thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

Dec 2, 2008, 2:21 PM

Post #22 of 22 (270 views)
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Re: [Russell Peters] Would you call this a tategoi? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Russell,

Beautiful koi for viewing as usual from you. If I ever have the chance to visit Isawa,
Japan, Toshio Sakai's farm is certainly one of the breeder which I would not want
to miss out on the trip. Thanks for sharing.

Best Regards,
Thiam Hwa

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