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Home: KOI Talk: Koi Appreciation:
D Sanke Jumbo Tosai

 





 


Mohan Ghandi
Member


May 19, 2008, 2:09 PM

Post #1 of 17 (3196 views)
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D Sanke Jumbo Tosai Can't Post
It was my burning desire to own a Sanke of the wakasurya bloodline. The desire was fulfilled at the auction held in conjunction with the 1st Asia Cup Koi Show held in Singapore. I was aiming for another Tosai but the fabulous Singapore dealer who bid for it refuse to put his hand down.

I have to be contended with the sandan sanke with Shita sumi. I decided to bid after Kintarosan confirmed that the D’Sanke is from the Wakasurya bloodline. Someone also told me that the Wakasurya bloodline has the tendency for sumi to appear later-can anyone confirm this. It is measured 42cm.

As of now, the hi is very light but the pattern is there. The mouth is big and when it opens it, it is like a 1 inch PVC pipe – the kuchubeni marking on the lips add charm to it. The big mouth, body structure and bloodline are tell-tale signs of a big koi.

IMHO it is not show quality today. But But it is a tategoi…you views koi kichis?


Anyone down there has a pix of the D’Sanke? Can you share with us?

Any comments pls?

Looking at the various wakashoryu bloodline champions, I notice an unusual characteristic – can you identify that?


D-Shanke.


Wakashoryu.
Hkk
Mohan. Cool


(This post was edited by Mohan Ghandi on May 19, 2008, 2:12 PM)
Attachments: p5.jpg (47.6 KB)
  p4.jpg (58.0 KB)


DavidSoon
Koi Lover


May 19, 2008, 9:36 PM

Post #2 of 17 (3129 views)
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Re: [Mohan Ghandi] D Sanke Jumbo Tosai [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi Abang Mohan

Interesting Forum on your side . Seems the Koi Hobby over your camp is ever vibrant and interesting . This is what I have in record for the " D Sanke " . She won best-in size when she was 70bu in the Hiroshima Koi Show November 2006 and this year at the All Japan Shinkokai Kois Show held in Tokyo , she won the 80 Bu Kokuogyo . Her fishlings are also from a mix of the Momotaro male Sanke . Mix and Match , and it turned out to be one of the better series Sanke this time For SFF as some of the Tosais already having very prominent patterns and Sumi during the last auction . Here's the attached of the D Sanke i have in the Sakai Bloodline Catalogue .

Cheers
David Soon
Attachments: img091.jpg (29.9 KB)


Mohan Ghandi
Member


May 20, 2008, 7:58 PM

Post #3 of 17 (3054 views)
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Re: [DavidSoon] D Sanke Jumbo Tosai [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi David Soon,

Today’s star carried the headlines” Dr M quits UMNO”. I thought this was exciting enough for the day, but when I switched on the computer, I was even more excited to see the owner of D’Sanke replying to my post.

That Sanke will enrapture any heart. If I have seen it in Japan, I will not come back without bagging it. I heard someone say “beg, borrow or steal – you must own it”. Yeeeessssss!

I hope you can tell us in detail how you came to own it – forum members will be too keen to know that.

If my Tosai worth your comments – can you comment on it pls?













Hkk
Mohan. Cool


deenblitzed
Koi Lover


May 21, 2008, 12:27 AM

Post #4 of 17 (3018 views)
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Re: [Mohan Ghandi] D Sanke Jumbo Tosai [In reply to] Can't Post
wahhh the owner of D Sanke. Im star struck. Please do share us your story Smile

mr mohan,

From what i read & picked up from other hobbyist. When looking for sankes make sure they have a sumi marking on their shoulders. As it is the indicator that the other sumi will appear.

I myself got a sanke from Mr Patrick's latest consignment. A jumbo tosai. Not sure about her oyagoi but she's was bred by Sakai FF. Still learning on how to choose a good sanke that will turn up to be a monster hehe. Even Patrick fell in love with her, that carries a lot of weight for me. Will drop by his place & take a photo of her & post it here for your comments.


DavidSoon
Koi Lover


May 22, 2008, 12:36 AM

Post #5 of 17 (2896 views)
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Re: [Mohan Ghandi] D Sanke Jumbo Tosai [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi Abang Mohan and friends ,

Wakashoryu mother fish was much admired bcos of her Snowy white . I had a few of her offsprings few years back and they all carried the Wakashoryu trademark ..... " SNOWY WHITE BODY " . This snowy white brings out the rest of the 2 other colors on their bodies . Just a little patches of beni here and there , and a few spots of sumi and you see a new generation SANKE . D Sanke like most of ther other offsprings of Wakashoryu carries a wide T-Bone and by the time the fish touches sansai , you would be able to see the body outline changes in a big way .

Similarly to that of the Omosako Shiro , we picked them with bigger patches of beni during tosai stage 'cos as they grow,stretch and open up on the girth , the beni on the shoulder would be pushed up closer to the dorsal . The Beni patches substain in sizes as the fish growth thru the years and by the time the fish hits 80 bu , beni & sumi you see during the tosai stage hardly change in size while the snowy white body mass repeats the beauty of wakashoyu trademark and the snowy white body that covers almost 90 percent of the fish body naturally brings out the shine of the beni and sumi altogether .

I have yet to pick up my 3 "D Sanke" nisai end of this year , from the final pond of the 1st spawn . Will bowl out the top 3 nisai after I pick them up this year end . New generation Sanke should carries as much Shiroji as possible . This will truely brings out the beauty and characteristic of Sanke . Hobbyists normally would say that Sanke is out of Kohakus , but if we keep Sankes that can lived out of the shadow of Kohakus , then Sanke will be a class above Kohakus . I bought D Sanke few years back bcos of this reason . She doesn't much carries the mark of Kohaku or Showa , as the Snowy White body is a trademark by itself .

Attached is another of my Sankes that's currently one of my favourites in my pond in Singapore .

Cheers Abang Mohan and Friends . God Bless

David Soon
Attachments: Dai JinSho 1.jpg (13.6 KB)


rosequeen
Koi Lover

May 22, 2008, 1:52 AM

Post #6 of 17 (2888 views)
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Re: [DavidSoon] D Sanke Jumbo Tosai [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi David Soon that my view on your sanke , body & shine was good , sumi & hi not the best , so it won 2nd runner-up...........................cheersWink


DavidSoon
Koi Lover


May 22, 2008, 6:28 PM

Post #7 of 17 (2797 views)
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Re: [rosequeen] D Sanke Jumbo Tosai [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi Rosequeen ,

Indeed this Sanke came in 2nd runner up to the Grand Champion during the 1st Asia Koi Show . It was an interesting event Sly. Benching in the morning and judging in the afternoon . Judges from both the Japan chapters as well as some international judges formed the whole panel of judges . A fair and balanced panel I would say .

7 Jumbo Gosankes were nominated for the Grand Champion Friday afternoon out of 16 big Gosanke above 80 bu , of which 4 out of 7 were my fishes Tongue . Subsequently 2 were eliminated and left with 5 and next elimination brought the nominated numbers to 3 . Tepsit Sanke , Max Kohaku and my Sanke . This was followed by another elimination and Max Kohaku was eliminated unfortunately, leaving behind Tepsit sanke and my Sanke . This category took more than an hour just to decide the Grand Champion .

Then came the final elimination . 18 judges casted their votes and surprisingly Tepsit Sanke took 9 votes and my Sanke also took 9 votes as well . Discussion time for all judges to make a second vote for the Grand Champion for the show .. and after much discussion a second voting was called ... and surprisingly both fishes received 9 votes each again .
Further discussion persued to determined the Champion and on the third round of vote castings for the Grand Champion , Tepsit sanke received 9 votes while one reserve to refrain from further voting and my fish received 8 votes and lost by 1 vote Crazy.

My Sanke wasn't awarded Reserved Grand Champion or 1st Runner-Up automatically , but instead there were calls from the committee to repick the 1st runner-up and 2nd runner up .. and subsequently Max Kohaku was picked as 1st runner-up while mine was picked as 2nd runner-up this time . Strange way of awarding . but as participants , we always respect their manner of judging and take everything decision in good stride .Cool This was all good fun and excitment in the Hall . This loss did not bring any disappointment to any of us as it was all for the fun of putting our Kois together to put up a good show .Wink Max Kohaku do not belongs to his China customer as reported in the result . In fact Max Kohaku is in my pond at the moment , looking for the right owner . A very costly fish , like Tepsit Sanke ( 12 mill Yen ) , Max Kohaku is easily priced at ( 8.5 Mill Yen ) while my Sanke is way far behind them in values and price Tongue.

Subsequently , one of my nominated Kohakus was awarded the Superior Champion , while another of my 75 Bu Kohaku Took the best in size as well as crowned the Mature Champion . Though my 80 Bu Shiro did came in 1st for Shiro , she did not managed to get nominated for any of the big trophies . Guess Kohaku / Showa and Sanke are still the preferred winners in bigger Categories .

Believed the Malaysia Camp headed by Abang Mohan were there to witness the excitement Sly .

Honestly , all the 3 top Kois , like most of the Kois there lost some shines and lustre during the few days event . Water parameters was hard to control for the few days . Kentaro and his handlers did the best they could to contain the parameters of the Hall water which they were not used to . High Chlorine and Chloramine level thru our Singapore tap , gave these group their biggest headache . Casualties were kept to a minimal . Their effort simply supered and appreciated .

Hopefully , Malaysia will hold the next Asia Koi Show and we hope to be able to send some of our Kois over the Malaysia Camp next year . All for the fun and admiration of Nishikigoi .Wink

Cheers and God Bless

David Soon


Mohan Ghandi
Member


Jun 1, 2008, 10:51 PM

Post #8 of 17 (2495 views)
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Re: [DavidSoon] D Sanke Jumbo Tosai [In reply to] Can't Post
HI David Soon
I just entered the hall as the judges were trying to choose the Grand Champion.
My good friend Poh chai who reached the venue earlier kept me busy & I missed the opportunity to follow the judging process.
Being a keen competitor myself,I can understand your predicament & hardfeelings.I am of the humble opinion that once they shortlist the koi,they should choose the 1st & 2nd runner up from that 5.
I notice that you are keeping some high grade koi in your pond. I hope you can tell us more about your pond with pixs. I am sure forum members will love it.
My question to you is how you maintain the status quo of your koi?_I mean how you maintain the shine & lustre.It is a open secret that a koi that wins the Grand champion once (after imported from Japan) is unable to win again the next year
because it can not compete with fresh imports from Japan.
Hkk
Mohan. Cool


DavidSoon
Koi Lover


Jun 4, 2008, 6:28 PM

Post #9 of 17 (2361 views)
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Re: [Mohan Ghandi] D Sanke Jumbo Tosai [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Abang Mohan

Following were my winners during the 1st Asia Koi Show .

75 bu Gingrin Kohaku - 1st / Best in size for Gingrin A.
75 bu Tancho Sanke - 1st / Best in size for Tancho 75 bu .
75 bu Sanke - 1st
75 bu Kohaku - 1st / Best in size / Mature Champion
80 bu yellow Doitsu - 1st
80 bu Shiro - 1st / Best in size for Shiro .
85 bu Kohaku - 1st / Superior Champion .
85 bu > Showa - 1st / Best in size
85 bu > Yellow Chagoi - 1st

Some 2nds I was told and my Sanke also came in 2nd runner-up to the Grand Champion

All these fishes already back in my ponds . No secrets to koi keeping techniques , but this is following I have been doing to my ponds .

1 ) 10 - 20 pct water change daily .

2 ) 10 gallon of fish guard - anti chlorine & anti Choromine

3 ) 20 kilos of Refresh Powder a month , to maintain the high mineral level in the water .

4 ) 4 feedings daily - for each pond , 0700 hrs 200 grams of FD wheatgerm , 1330 hrs 300 grams of FD wheatgerm
1800 hrs 600 grams of FD Miracle food , 2300 hrs 800 grams of Paste Food .

5 ) water depth of both ponds not more than 3 feet .

6 ) water parameter ??? Damn .. I never observe all these the past years ..Tongue

Small Pond ( 15 tonnes inclusive filter ) - 12 kois , smallest being 61 bu Kohaku and biggest 84 bu Yamabuki . House many winners here , or I could say many winners from my small pond .Wink


Big pond ( 45 tonnes inclusive filter ) - 12 kois , smallest 75 bu and biggest 92 bu Yellow Chagoi . Now housing the 1st runner up , Superior Champion , Mature Champion as well as many winners ...

Growth rate for both ponds ?? Very hard to explain and can only say is unbelievable growth rate . Kentaro Sakai knows my pond . He's equally surprised and enchanted by the fishes grwoing in these 2 ponds .

Above is never worth discussing as it seems ridiculous with the above way and ponds of keeping Kois . Some would say .. over crowding , over feeding , over flushing , over many many more things ... too shallow .. etc .. etc .. against school of thoughts .....Smile

Will bring out another group of fishes next year as it's quite meaningless bring out the same fish for every Koi Show Abang .

Cheers and God Bless Abang Mohan .

Regards
David Soon
Attachments: Small Pond.JPG (40.4 KB)
  Big Pond.JPG (40.0 KB)


DavidSoon
Koi Lover


Jun 4, 2008, 7:24 PM

Post #10 of 17 (2349 views)
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Re: [Mohan Ghandi] D Sanke Jumbo Tosai [In reply to] Can't Post
Sorry Abang Mohan ,

I missed out on the water pumps for both ponds .

15 tonnes pond - i have 1 pump ( 1 horse power - abt 20 tonnes per hour ) , 2 of the 13,000 litres per hr Tsurami pumps . That's more than twice the amount of water turn-around every hour .

45 tonnes pond - i have 1 pump ( 1 horse power , 3 of the 13,000 litres per hr Tsurami pumps . ) .

Most hobbyists or sifus out there would deem this as too fast for bacteria to grow ... I never have a problem with that ... have not re-cultured any bacteria the last 2 years .

Chillers installed for both ponds as well - Temperature between 23-25 deg Celcius . If the fish goes lazy after some weeks , I off the chiller to enable the fish to push the belly back to the tail portion to built up the tail and reduce size of bellies .Wink Simple trick to ensure fishes grow with proportionate bodies from head to tail .

Simple filteration , of course with aid of Bakki shower helps to increase oxygen level in water .
Water jet-like outlets to simulate streams .

That's all Abang Mohan .Wink

Regards
David Soon


Mohan Ghandi
Member


Jun 13, 2008, 8:43 PM

Post #11 of 17 (1433 views)
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Re: [DavidSoon] D Sanke Jumbo Tosai [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi David Soon,



When I was a teenager, I was a Tamil film fan - my legend then was the late Sivaji Ganesan - those who knew him will agree that he is the best actor of all times.

Later, when I picked up the koi hobby about 20 years ago, I thought that Katosan and the late Manosan were the legends. Now I realize that we have our koi legends at our own backyard.

Lustre and Shine

For a long time, we were amused as to whether we can compete with fresh imports from Japan. Now I dare say that you have given us some confidence. The idea is not only to have a good pond but to support it with a chiller. I have a pond which is about 300 ton or so - looks like I have to find a chiller as big as “ David Soon’s bedroom”. At a SPKC forum when Kintaro suggested that we should install a chiller - henceforth, I was toying with the idea. My investigations only showed that Jacky’s chiller is working fine ( not because my dream kohaku is squatting there). With resplendent feedback from you, it gives me more confidence to use a chiller.

All these while, I was holding surveillance and watching the lively exchanges ( I am happy I ignited it) and note and feel shy when you call me Abang. I think Abang David is more appropriate and better - Adik Mohan will do.

Same koi winning at different show

This is not a problem. My 75cm showa had won twice at different shows. My chagoi had won the over 85cm 1st prize for four consecutive years at the Malaysian Koi Show. The problem troubling us was whether we can compete with the fresh imports from Japan. Your feedback gives us impetus and confidence. Singapore Boleh! Malaysia Boleh!

One Question?

Since koi kept here are good as kois kept in Japan, why not breed our own koi?
In line with the Malaysia Boleh concept I tried my hand at breeding local koi. My Orchiba offspring managed to win some prizes beating the Japanese counterparts. I intend to start with non- Gonsanke breeding soon.
Hkk
Mohan. Cool


DavidSoon
Koi Lover


Jun 13, 2008, 9:39 PM

Post #12 of 17 (1417 views)
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Re: [Mohan Ghandi] D Sanke Jumbo Tosai [In reply to] Can't Post
Abang Mohan ,

You are one of the pioneer of Koi Keeping in our community , not right for adik david if I dun address you as Abang Mohan . In all due respect , you have been keeping this forum active and lively all these while .

Chiller is an asset , as we could be toying with temperature throughout the whole year . It certainly helps to induce feeding by tunning temperature down between ( 23-25 deg celsius ) and putting them back up again to bring them out of hibernation .

300 tonnes of water in your pond requires a BIG BIG Chiller Abang Mohan .. bigger than my house !!!! Kidding Abang .Smile

Seen one installed in Max Koi Farm , belonging to Vesmond Wong . Check it out and I believe it's always worth while having one .
Good luck Abang Mohan . Always nice to hear from you .

Cheers and God Bless

David soon


DavidSoon
Koi Lover


Jun 14, 2008, 12:00 AM

Post #13 of 17 (1389 views)
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Re: [Mohan Ghandi] D Sanke Jumbo Tosai [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi Abang Mohan ,

In regards to spawning in our region , I would simply say there's never been a problem here at all . Nippon Koi Farm has been spawning their own kois for years . The "Know How " is never difficult , but the facilities and the culling exercises would be the main issue if we want to have quality tosai or quality Jumbos out of our own spawning .

Nicely matched Parent Fishes sometime still do not produce the best fishlings as in the case of some farms in Japan . Same scenarios can happen anywhere as well . It need some luck and good males , not only mother fish , to produce good babies .Wink

Culling exercises even after a good spawn , requires very sharp eyes for good "futures " . I remembered when they harvested D Sanke , about 1 kilo of eggs was collected - close to 460,000 fishlings in April / May last year and by December , thru the stringent culling for the better fishlings , only 980 fishes were spared while the rest of the few hundred thousand fishlings were destroyed or put away . But the time the fishes were due back to the mud pond for the season , less than 100 was left of this spawn . Some of the 980 were sold while some were discarded . Culling is stringent in Japan farm .
If the guys in charge of culling keeps throwing away the good " futures " during the culling exercises , the bloodline will not be able to substain long . That is why most of the culling guys are the farm senior workers with years of experience on good kois or even the farm owners themselves .

If your Ochiba starts to spawn , You will never have a problem with culling the unwanted fishlings . You have lots of Koi-Kichis most willing to volunteer to help you do the culling Abang Mohan Cool . It's always interesting to have the mind-set that anything the world can do , we also boleh !!SlySly
Probably few years down the road , we will have MG Kohaku , MG Sanke winning in the Koi Show around here . This is the Ultimate in Koi Keeping Abang Mohan .Wink

Good luck Abang Mohan . I Will definitely support your bloodlines .Sly

Regards
David soon


Mohan Ghandi
Member


Jun 15, 2008, 7:25 PM

Post #14 of 17 (1302 views)
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Re: [DavidSoon] D Sanke Jumbo Tosai [In reply to] Can't Post
Hello Abang Soon,

Thanks for your compliments and giving us further courage.

Breeding

Spawning is easy but to take care of the multitude of tosais is a problem. At one time, I threw all my tosais in my big pond. My purpose was to see how it turns out and then to remove it if it do not show progress. One visitor who came and asked me how many kois you keep per square foot? I merely smiled and avoided the question.

One need space and time to see how the tosais shapes up. It needs a few years to build up a good bloodline.

Your problem

The problem that you encountered could have been cured with Nika (anti lice and flukes – purple in colour) – costs about RM3.00 or RM4.00 per bottle. You need to use 1 drop per gallon. In severe cases, repeat the same dosage after 24 hours. After 48 hours, you start changing the water slowly. As fresh water goes in the kois will start moving and starts feeding in the wall algae .This is a cheap and quick remedy.

When you add new koi or when you see the koi all going to sleep in a bunch at the bottom of the pond or they start flashing, the best remedy is Nika. I have used it countless times and it did not fail me.

Chillers

I remember you saying that there are many ways of using the chiller. For the benefit of Forum members including me,. can you explain in detail including the costs factors? Using it properly is vital to success because Kintaro said if one do not know how to use it, it will futile.

Unusual feature of Wakasoru Bloodline.


No one tried to answer this other than snowy. I notice the strips on both the fins are not even. Am I right?

Finally, I hope your D Sanke bloodline will develop above the rest.
Hkk
Mohan. Cool


DavidSoon
Koi Lover


Jun 18, 2008, 12:19 AM

Post #15 of 17 (1196 views)
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Re: [Mohan Ghandi] D Sanke Jumbo Tosai [In reply to] Can't Post
Abang Mohan ,

Subject on chillers can be a long subject by itself Sly. The pros and cons of installing chillers . Usage of chillers , costs of chillers etc .. etc ... the discussion can take up many many pages . By the way , my chiller for the 15 tones pond costed me Sin$4,000 to install while my bigger chiller cost a little bit more only ... they're actually Air-Con Compressor ( any brands ) , but different in power or BTU . Very economical if we maintain 24-26 deg celsius as the 24 deg is not difficult to attain and the power will automatically cuts off when the water hits 24 deg and compressor will only re-activate if water temperature skip out of 26 deg .. all these with the help of thermostat control .

One main reason why I have chillers installed is to prevent my fishes from producing eggs during the warm season . Kois starts to produce eggs during the spawning season ( normally between end April till July or sometimes August ) due to the warmer water temperature between 27-29 deg celsius . In our tropical region , we have water temperature sometime close to , or higher than that ... and our Kois carries or start to produce eggs easily .

When we install chiller , we would normally try not to let the water temperature go above 26 deg celsius . This will normally prevent our bigger kois from producing eggs .Sly If you want to spawn your Ochiba this year , then you might have to seperate her or install the chiller seperately .Sly ..

Of course having a chiller , we can do more things with our fishes , including feeding , fine tunning for Shows etc.. etc ...

Let's hope one day in one of the Shows , there can be an open discussion on Chillers . Pros and Cons of chillers .

Cheers Abang Mohan . I hope i can explain everything I know or have gone through on chillers the last few years .

Regards
David Soon


Mohan Ghandi
Member


Jun 28, 2008, 11:29 AM

Post #16 of 17 (774 views)
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Re: [DavidSoon] D Sanke Jumbo Tosai [In reply to] Can't Post
    Abang Soon,


In Reply To

Let's hope one day in one of the Shows , there can be an open discussion on Chillers . Pros and Cons of chillers .

Cheers Abang Mohan . I hope i can explain everything I know or have gone through on chillers the last few years .

Regards
David Soon


I note that you are interested in conducting a forum on chillers. Well, our Malaysian koi kakis will be interested in it – perhaps on other topics as well – D Sanke bloodline and paste food.

If you are keen please let me know I will make arrangement through our Koi Club.
Hkk
Mohan. Cool


monscine
Koi Lover


Jun 28, 2008, 11:43 AM

Post #17 of 17 (770 views)
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Re: [Mohan Ghandi] D Sanke Jumbo Tosai [In reply to] Can't Post
Abang Mohan,

I should fly there just to listen about wine chiller and oyster cookies from uncle David LaughLaughLaugh

Cheers,

 
 
 



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