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what do you think

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pondlady
Koi Lover

Sep 28, 2008, 1:06 PM

Post #1 of 28 (1464 views)
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what do you think	Can't Post

How do these two look and Identification if some one could please. Thanks

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pondlady
Koi Lover

Oct 1, 2008, 9:08 PM

Post #2 of 28 (1313 views)
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Re: [pondlady] what do you think [In reply to]	Can't Post

No one knows??????????? Why does that not suprise me! are they not good enough for you opinion? This forum is suposed to have some of the best. funny! NOT.

DavidSoon
Koi Lover

Oct 1, 2008, 9:37 PM

Post #3 of 28 (1311 views)
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Re: [pondlady] what do you think [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Pondlady Smile

These 2 babies goes under the " varieties category " of which I'm not so certain as I'm no good in choosing or keeping varieties . Smile

Hope some of the guys out there can help you identify your beauties . Sly

Cheers
David

HWONG
Koi Addict

Oct 1, 2008, 10:21 PM

Post #4 of 28 (1299 views)
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Re: [pondlady] what do you think [In reply to]	Can't Post

GAyla,
While this forum has an International membership,many active members are Asians. Culturally, Asians do not mouth out when they are not sure. This is to avoid embarrassing others and themselves. So do not be mistaken that they dont want to entertain newbies. Hope you will appreciate these subtleties.
If I can dare venture a guess, Both your kois are Kujakus the one on the left is a regular(scaled) variety while the one on the right is a doitsu(no scales except on the top and the side-mid section)

Cheers

pondlady
Koi Lover

Oct 2, 2008, 11:43 AM

Post #5 of 28 (1267 views)
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Re: [pondlady] what do you think [In reply to]	Can't Post

I already knew that about your posters. That is why I asked! They are know to be the best. I was disapointed that no one even tried to respond. As I look through other posts here I see that I am not alone, We come her for advice from the best and we are ignored. It makes one feel we are not good enough to be considered. Frustrating to say the least. Speak up we want to know. Please. I have already ID them. But I don't know if they are good examples or not.

DavidSoon
Koi Lover

Oct 4, 2008, 12:06 PM

Post #6 of 28 (1144 views)
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Re: [pondlady] what do you think [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Gayla

,

Very often , we hear hobbyists saying " Beauty lies in the hands of the beholder " . This apply to our Kois as well . While we learn to appreciate and admire somebody's kois , we would often feel that we owned the best , no matter what others might comments on our Kois .

The best is not in this forum , though some of the forumers here keep some of the best Kois in this region in Asia . Time and tides waits for no man , the best will age and new best will replace what that's used to be "best" . The best is still in Japan . Sly

This is a friendly forum , where most of the forumers are friendly by nature . Believe if you have been browsing through most of the threads , most would pass ,when they are asked for comments on certain Kois or issues , simply Because , most would not bear to really criticise on a non conforming Koi , or rub in on unpleasant issues . Again I would say , " Beauty Lies In The Hands of The Beholder " .. and sometimes the truth can hurt . What we deem ugly , can be a beauty to some , and what that we deemed as beauty , might be ugly to many . Smile

Koi Keeping in Asia , is an art . Art of Zen or anything you can deem it to be . Not just a hobby , not just any Koi Show Competition , but a character building school I would say . Watching these kois in our gardens , watching them eat and learning to understand their characteristic , we learned to be patient , we learn to share , we learn to admire and we learn to embrace all walks of life and characters , as much as we put in the various varieties of Kois in one pond and watch them live in harmony. This is Koi Keeping , not just about you or me . Smile

Do not feel frustrated that you did not receive much comments on your post , but rather try to understand the friendly forumers here . Most of the forumers here knew me , and they can shoot anything at me , knowingly that I would never get angry with anyone here , as I would always say , we take all comments in good stride and even if there's no comments or remarks , we passed it and we move along . Laugh

No hard feelings .

This forum and the moderator and webmaster , certainly welcome you , as much as they had welcome me , and the rest of the guys here . Your presence in this forum is always a contribution to a more active forum . Many thanks Gayla , for allowing me to speak , and my apology if I might have written anything that's not acceptable or unpleasant . Smile

Cheers
David

pondlady
Koi Lover

Oct 4, 2008, 12:51 PM

Post #7 of 28 (1138 views)
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Re: [DavidSoon] what do you think [In reply to]	Can't Post

So what is the point in posting if no one is going to respond?????? I and others know that they are not top notch stuff. But if your expert artists don't respond how will we learn? Are the fins to short? is the beni fading is it strong. Things like that. We are more offended by no response than an honest one.

PH8
Koi Lover

Oct 4, 2008, 3:42 PM

Post #8 of 28 (1109 views)
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Re: [pondlady] what do you think [In reply to]	Can't Post

Gayla,

There are other international koi forums out there where the members are much more caustic in their criticisms. Although I hear you say that some criticism is better than no response, I've seen posters never come back to those international forums after other members ripped their koi apart with criticism. By and large, we're relatively quite civil over here. Just as Americans are by nature and culture more outspoken than most Asians, we beg that you also try to understand our culture. At times, when someone posts a photo of a pond mutt (I'm not referring to you, Gayla, just an illustration) and asks for opinions, we Asians prefer not to say anything than to say something hurtful or (seemingly) condescending.

Much of the ambiguity in koi identification is because the koi concerned is not a very good representation of the variety for which it was originally bred. Therein lies the confusion. Indeed, one set of parent pairing may give rise to many different varieties in the same spawn because of their genetic background. If both parents are showas, one might expect that the entire spawn will be showas, but the truth is far from it. Also, even experts sometimes disagree, for example, on whether a certain koi is a showa or a sanke. Or if there is only one hi patch, whether it's a shiro utsuri gone wrong. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what variety it is, does it? As long as it does something for you and it captured your imagination enough for you to have bought it. You buy koi for yourself, not for others.

Cheers and peace,
Paul

pondlady
Koi Lover

Oct 4, 2008, 9:23 PM

Post #9 of 28 (1064 views)
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Re: [PH8] what do you think [In reply to]	Can't Post

WATEVER

Zinger
Koi Lover

Oct 4, 2008, 11:01 PM

Post #10 of 28 (1050 views)
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Re: [pondlady] what do you think [In reply to]	Can't Post

You may not like to believe it, but sometimes its best not to make negative comments cos u never know when its a 'little kid' on the other end who cant handle the truth n it ends up getting ugly. Before u know it, the nazis step in and end up locking the account.... Laugh

In my case, I have no comment to offer solely based on the fact that I have no idea which box your koi fits into.

All the best with it tho.

ikankoiku
Koi Lover

Oct 5, 2008, 5:43 AM

Post #11 of 28 (1017 views)
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Re: [pondlady] what do you think [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi everyone,

This forum is getting livelier Laugh

. To summarize in MHO:

To pondlady,
There are people who felt the same way as you did and many of us thank you for raising up the issue. You are right. But what the other posters were saying are right too. Our cultures are different. Our application and ways to post comment will be different too. That is why I am so impressed by how these beautiful creatures can make us share the same interest with huge diff in our culture. Don't get me wrong coz I got ignored too a times and felt my comments were not appreciated. At the end of the day, I will happily look at my kois wondering why the hell I got into this mess. Laugh

The way I see it, people entering this forum for various reasons. People with pure interest, people with koi's problems, for business and money making and ect. My posts were never answered by money making posters and will never be (unless they can make money).

I will not answer your post as I am new and I am still struggling to identify my own kois. So there are so many people like me who are here to learn and feel that my answer could be wrong. After all this is world wide forum. I dont want to be marked by mafia or Osama for giving a wrong, redi or hurting comment on their kois Frown

. So only the moderators and experts can answers our Qs without doubt of being marked.

To the experts and moderators,
Thank you for sharing your tots. I hv learned a lot fr you guys. Seriously, you are the heart of this forum. With so many posts to entertain, I still hope you will try your best to answer it. Hopefully in time, you will naturally recruit more people who will be able to help you to answer the posts. By the way, everybody is a beginner before. Try not to ignore if you are in the 'know'. You may have your own league but sometimes, pls come down and look at us.

With my culture influenced, I feel like opologizing if my post is hurting anyone. So... I am sorry. It is just an honnest opinion.

ikankoiku
Koi Lover

Oct 5, 2008, 5:54 AM

Post #12 of 28 (1016 views)
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Re: [ikankoiku] what do you think [In reply to]	Can't Post

dear pondlady,

if I may try, the left one is more like a koromo kohaku and the right one is more on the syusui and doitsu mix. let it grow bigger for easier id.

Am I right seniors??? I told you I need further training.... Cool

PH8
Koi Lover

Oct 5, 2008, 9:51 AM

Post #13 of 28 (1001 views)
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Re: [ikankoiku] what do you think [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi IKK,

I'm neither an expert nor a moderator. In fact most of us here on the board are here on our own accord and each one of us is still learning, just a matter of which part of the learning curve we're on, that's all.

At times, photos are posted of koi with such major issues with conformation, quality and pattern (or even identification for that matter) that there is no present nor future for the koi. Or maybe one that is just plain ugly to the viewer, since koi appreciation is a highly subjective matter. (Again, I have to stress that I'm talking in a general sense, not about Gayla or her koi.) Whether we're beginners or experts, I'm sure we've all seen koi that literally made us cringe. But when one can sense the enthusiasm bubbling out from the poster, it seems downright cruel to give an honest assessment on the koi, however much the "comments" post is toned down. And indeed there are many occasions where the original poster takes offence to the comments and reacts violently in a confrontational manner. In this thread alone, there have been some reconciliatory posts written to attempt to bridge the culture gap, but even these get violent one-word reactionary replies. When one wishes to participate on international forum sites, one should always recognise that the posters may come from very diverse racial and cultural backgrounds. Tolerance and respect should always be key. JMHO.

Back to Gayla's 2 koi in this thread, I really have no idea what classification they fall under. I'm not an expert on varieties either.

Cheers,
Paul

(This post was edited by PH8 on Oct 5, 2008, 9:58 AM)

monscine
Member

Oct 5, 2008, 9:59 AM

Post #14 of 28 (994 views)
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Re: [pondlady] what do you think [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

WATEVER

wewww...such an anger...dunno how the kois will be on the keeper hands Pirate

thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

Oct 5, 2008, 12:31 PM

Post #15 of 28 (979 views)
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Re: [monscine] what do you think [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi All,

Pondlady & ikankoiku's view on newbies question has been noted. This will required a collective effort from all forumers to help out for the better of the Forum in future.

I know that sometimes, it is very difficult to response to questions regarding identity
of Non Go-Sanke koi varieties. These problems are further compounded by the nature
of the photos angle taken for eg. koi side view only, koi image too small for viewing etc.
which do not help when one is trying to identify the koi.

In my opinion, please make sure that a proper 45 to 60 degree above view angle of the
photo taken from the front of the koi will probably generate more feed back to your postings.

Lastly, please remember we are all here to learn and share in this fascinating hobby,
so please keep things respectful or else we will loose what this Forum is all about.
Thank you All for your understanding.

Happy Koi Keeping,
Thiam Hwa

pondlady
Koi Lover

Nov 29, 2008, 9:23 AM

Post #16 of 28 (617 views)
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Re: [thiamhwa] what do you think [In reply to]	Can't Post

HUMMMMMMMM. have not been here for quite a while. Guess i was just plain discusted so I logged out and did not look in again until now, Glad I am not alone in my frustration. If it is good tell me it is good, if it bad tell me it is bad. I would not have asked the question if I was not ready to hear the answer. I can not learn if I have a mute teacher. So now they have grown some but I have not netted them out of the tank to do pics, I would like to show you how one has grown and changed. come spring I will do a better job of pics. For now this is all I have.

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deenblitzed
Koi Lover

Nov 29, 2008, 10:45 AM

Post #17 of 28 (602 views)
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Re: [pondlady] what do you think [In reply to]	Can't Post

this one looks like a kujaku. am i right?

pondlady
Koi Lover

Nov 29, 2008, 1:50 PM

Post #18 of 28 (584 views)
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Re: [deenblitzed] what do you think [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yes I do believe it will be. I also know that as they grow they change along the way. So far I like the way this mutt is coming along.

The other one has also changes, the pics were taken through the side of the tank. Winter is no time to over stress them. In the spring I will bowl them as do pics. This is a learning curve for me.

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pondlady
Koi Lover

Nov 29, 2008, 1:56 PM

Post #19 of 28 (582 views)
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Re: [deenblitzed] what do you think [In reply to]	Can't Post

This one is a little better for now.

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deenblitzed
Koi Lover

Nov 29, 2008, 6:28 PM

Post #20 of 28 (535 views)
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Re: [pondlady] what do you think [In reply to]	Can't Post

Winter? where are you from pondlady? I believe this calls for four season koi keeping skills Smile

I believe most of the people here are used to keeping koi in one weather namely summer all year long heh heh. Though I also believe that there are some hobbyist here trying emulate the 4 seasons in their ponds since kois came from a 4 season country.

The 2nd fish looks like a doitsu sanke. Any idea how old your little babies are? Can make a better 2nd guess from there.

pondlady
Koi Lover

Nov 30, 2008, 12:25 AM

Post #21 of 28 (499 views)
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Re: [deenblitzed] what do you think [In reply to]	Can't Post

I am from rural Utah, USA . Zone 4, Cold weather to -30. I do not know there age. I got them in September 2008 as 3" fingerlings. I do not know the growth rate of younglin koi. They are now 6" and filled out nice. I also have this ugly duckling dragon scale, I think! Have now clew about it. It was cot in the swamps a few miles from here? I will see how it comes along. No a show koi person just want to learn as much as I can about these wonderful fish. Good, bad, ugly and beautiful, AND everything inbetween.

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PH8
Koi Lover

Nov 30, 2008, 8:30 AM

Post #22 of 28 (473 views)
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Re: [pondlady] what do you think [In reply to]	Can't Post

Welcome back, Gayla

Actually koi were bred to be viewed from the top. Their patterns look nicer viewed from an overhead angle rather than from the side. And koi can grow really big. Some as big as 40 inches, but these are rare. The majority of koi will grow to at least 20 inches in an average environment. That is the reason why koi are usually not kept in aquarium tanks but in either concrete or liner ponds (could be indoors or outdoors). As they grow bigger, you will find that aquarium tanks will be unable to handle the load of fish waste, the water quality will soon turn bad and issues will start appearing. Do take a read in the "Pond Construction" section of this forum. Good luck with the hobby Sly

Regards,
Paul

pondlady
Koi Lover

Nov 30, 2008, 9:12 AM

Post #23 of 28 (469 views)
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Re: [PH8] what do you think [In reply to]	Can't Post

I know all that! they are in a tank because they were to late for the ponds. Water was to cold and ponds were covered for winter. What I meant was how long it takes them to get from fry to 3" fingerlings. The tank has plenty of filtration as well as airation. 100 gals of water. There are 3 koi, 3 shubunkins and 2 fantail goldfish. The pics were for comparison not viewing. I just shared them with readers here. I am a mutt raiser but to me they are all beautiful. I can resale them to others with no knowledge and they to will think they are beautiful. I am here to share and to learn. These two are my big girls 27 and 29 inches. Just mutt but everyone who see's them are thrilled. That's what its all about to me! Its the love of them for me. If I could buy the very best I would have some, but I cannot so I will take what I can and keep on learning about the best. The more I learn the better I can chose for what is avalable here.

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Russell Peters
Koi Lover

Dec 1, 2008, 2:11 PM

Post #24 of 28 (369 views)
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Re: [pondlady] what do you think [In reply to]	Can't Post

You have a Kujaku and a Hisei Nishiki (Doistu Platinum Sanke). The Hisei Nishiki is a better example than the Kujaku. I think the Kujaku will be very dark and dirty as it gets bigger.

http://www.pskoi.com
US Dealer and Distributor for INC
Matsunosuke

pondlady
Koi Lover

Dec 2, 2008, 1:27 PM

Post #25 of 28 (311 views)
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Re: [Russell Peters] what do you think [In reply to]	Can't Post

I am not so sure about that. It has lightened up a lot in 3 months. Time will tell on this one. I have learned a lot watching them grow and change, reading what others think when I can get them to respond, I like to hear so I can see if the changes come or not, I'm ok with good or bad views. By spring They may not look a thing like they do now. We shall see!!!!! Unsure

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