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High Nitrates Level? Try This!

 





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BillyBoy
Novice


Mar 2, 2004, 12:25 AM

Post #226 of 311 (38501 views)
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Re: [chiselchst] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes any bio media I imagine would be OK. Biohome - porous ceramic? Biggest problem is clogging. Any solids in there and you have a clogged bio ball, and then you have hetertrophs and things turn ugly. Look at it wrong and it clogs, goodbye massive surface area. At least, for anything beneficial - inside all hell could be breaking out.

TTs I am very wary of. You cannot have any organics (normally solids) else heterotrohic bacteria which grow in these anaerobic situations WILL form and you don't want these anywhere in your system. So your TT water MUST be clean (of solids and even dissolved organics). So, a vortex is a good idea but not sufficient - some solids smaller than 800 microns will NOT settle out, and some denser solids smaller than 500 microns will also not settle out. Normally below 200 microns or so the mass of solid is very small and so less dangerous. It's the bigger (and we're talking really small here) stuff that counts and can cause problems. Beside, vortexes to be efficient must be HUGE with good long retention times. An Answer will do the trick for mechanical filtration - a sand filter will not - quite possibly it's the worst thing for it. go to www.happykoi.co.za for my article on sand filters and why they're evil and MUST all be killed!

Minimum height of a TT is not a relevant question. Retention time is the question you're actually asking - the physical size will determine the flow rates and hence the retention time. I think, and I stand under correction here, that the longer the better - I don't think yuo can do any damage by keepinf it for longer than required - and my gut instinct is that 30 minutes or longer is about the minimum to go for. Anaerobic processes tend to take longer than aerobic ones.

I'm sure others will comment and shoot me down - great - let's hear arguments for and against. The more the better!

BillyBoy


BillyBoy
Novice


Mar 2, 2004, 12:39 AM

Post #227 of 311 (38501 views)
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Re: [chiselchst] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the reference to the website - fabulous site!

I'd be interested in your findings. Kaldnes K1 seems to remove nitrates by mature bacteria colonies in the centre of the wheel - where it's largely anaerobic apparently (!). Bio film is chaotic at the best of times and it seems that Kaldnes K1 somehow optimises the nitrate removal process - I don't yet fully understand it myself.


chiselchst
Novice

Mar 3, 2004, 4:37 PM

Post #228 of 311 (38484 views)
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Re: [Mark] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

This thread is very fascinating to me. I appreciate all of the feedback from those that have TT's. I do have some questions (again): * Can the de-nitrification process (to nitrites) occur in sunlight, or shaded sunlight? I have seen many marine aquariums in fish stores and elsewhere operate them in the light (I wanted to build two 5 ft. TT's using clear acrylic so I can watch the flow). That will contain roughly 6,000 bio-balls each, for a planned 2,000 gallon pond. * If the removal of nitrates is from the de-gassing process as stated later in this thread, then how does Mark's filter which contains roughly 35 to 50 gallons of bio-balls remove nitrates when salt water aquariums with a similar height do not remove nitrates? (I believe him that it does - just trying to understand more). It only seems to about 18 inckes tall. Surfing the web, aquarium owners are getting rid of bio-balls due to high nitrates. * Has anyone ever used "Ultra Bio Media" in their TT's? It is a plastic about one half inch by one half in long. It would seem to make a good media for a TT (750 sq ft area per cu ft.), but might clog easier? In the US, I found Bio-Pin-Balls for about .05 cents each, or $30 for 1 cu ft/7.5 gallons here: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/...id=6&pCatId=4161 Here is a link to the "Ultra Bio Media": http://www.koistuff.com/...ntId=45&catId=45 Any input appreciated, Mitch
My Opinion - Worth What You Paid For It...


goldy
User

Mar 5, 2004, 11:24 AM

Post #229 of 311 (38463 views)
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Re: [BillyBoy] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

hi billyboy
i would agree with you about keeping any fillter clean, but about tt not being able to run with any organic's in them ?
last year mid summer i was unable to clean my fillter for two month, no water changes no uv, still regular feeding, when i cleaned the fillter it stunk the two inch sump at the bottom of the tank was full of crap i had to walk away to take breath's it was that bad, any way the uv was back on line two week's later i could see my fish again all healthy and fine , another week i don't know they could of all been floating? personally i like to think it was the oxygen rich water the fillter recieves?

Minimum height of a TT is not a relevant question.
i think it is , dwell time isn't a factor ? thats down to flow rate and gravety ,
like mitch seide about adding air volume for degassing purpose is a good point,
most of the tt are high and thin which would create there owne updraft like a chimney or lift shaft?
30 miniuts retention ? mines about 12 second's
the manufacturers of floclor also state that the inside of the ring are colonized by anorobic bacteria and the outer by arobic bacteria WHY?
still good point's though
all the best
goldy


BillyBoy
Novice


Mar 5, 2004, 2:28 PM

Post #230 of 311 (38455 views)
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Re: [goldy] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Goldy,

We're at cross purposes here it seems. My understanding is this: TT's rely on the anaerobic process for their efficiency. As such, the longer the retention time, the better - the less oxygen will be present thank to any aerobic bacteria that happen to be in the system. Yes, the media you refer to can colonise both type of bacteria - but then any media can. The conditions are that which determine which bacteria develop.

With reference to your smelly filter the only thing I think that may have saved your fish would be the relatively small volume of water passing through the TT - I am assuming this - passing into a large body of water where the poisons (the stuff that you smell kills fish - it's hydrogen sulphide amongst others) wwere diluted to a point of low concentration and then diffused out the pond?

My point of view though is that bad smells in a Koi pond, anywhere, are a sign that there's trouble. You don't get bad smells in nature unless there's a rotting process taking place - as in a carcass, but these disappear quite quickly. So if someone has bad smells it normally indicates to me that not enough purging/cleaning is taking place - as you say - leave it for a while and then things get really ugly.

With regard to air blow back, yes it will help drive off the nitrogen - assuming that we're only tallking about the nitrification process, and assuming that's completed. If your residence time is 12 seconds, I would then assume that your turnover is pretty high which would help the performance. But if you're injecting air, then the bacteria would have very little time to operate - hence the higher turnover required.

This assumes that the water has no oxygen in it when it enters the column.

now, if you have solids entering the column and you have anaerobic conditions, you end up with sludge that hetertrophic bacteria thrive in and all osrts of uncontrolled poisonous organic reactions will take place - the bad smells you experienced. TT's in other words must be fed crystal clear water so that the only reaction that can take place is the nitrification one - at least this is my understanding. You want control over exactly what's happening and when you have organics (solids) in anaerobic circumstances you have a situation that you can't control.

Do I make sense?

Billy Boy


goldy
User

Mar 7, 2004, 4:42 AM

Post #231 of 311 (38444 views)
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Re: [BillyBoy] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

hi billyboy
Crazy now im confused.
the reason i mentioned this insident was to get across that the tt would fair just as well as, if not better than any othere filter with organics in,
not an ideal situation but unavoidable at the time,
i have one trickle filter preceeded by a vortex pond turnover once every ninety min's dwell time about twelv seconds amonia always zero nitrite always zero.
i have alway's thought that my tt did not reduce nitrate becouse of algy bloom and blanket weed, as i never tested for it, i bought one three weeks ago, it,s been 12.5 ever since allthough temp is only 7 degree's so now im not shure ?.
im not into aquariums but i think your linking the two , if im not mistaken aquariums deoxygenat the water like you say with very slow dwell time then into a tt where the anaerobice prosses takes place?
pond tt some are preceeded by submerged filters , some are stand alone?
so is it bacterial or degassing that removes nitrate?
see why you could'nt have a 30 miniut dwell time in a ttBlush.
i favoure the degassing prosses myselfCrazy
i have read this thread three times now and if i am not wrong marks nitrate started to reduse streight away as soon as he added NEW bioball's not long enough for bacteria to colonize the media in my opinion so this is another reason i favour the degassing prosses.
all the best
goldy


BillyBoy
Novice


Mar 7, 2004, 2:22 PM

Post #232 of 311 (38440 views)
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Re: [goldy] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

Goldy, I see what you mean - finally - sorry -I"m a bit slow. The light has clicked on - I will make some investigations as to what actually happens. Although your pond temp is very low, so there is likely to be little ammonia produced in any event which might account for the constant steady reading of 12.5. I'll revert when I have more info...because if degassing works, you would need no bio media in your TT unless this was the sole source of bio filtration. I'll check it out.

BillyBoy


goldy
User

Mar 8, 2004, 6:19 AM

Post #233 of 311 (38430 views)
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Re: [BillyBoy] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

hi billyboy
i enjoy chating to you so please don't take this the wrong way Tongue.you have a good theiry knowlidge of nitrogen cycle, but you seem to be lacking in practickle hand's on experiance?
you want to promote the nexux & k1 ?
you are looking for answer's to make a better filter
have you ever kept fish.
honesty is the best policy.
i believe in calling a spade a spadeTongue
hope to chat to you soon
all the best
goldy


BillyBoy
Novice


Mar 8, 2004, 1:04 PM

Post #234 of 311 (38426 views)
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Re: [goldy] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Goldy,

I have kept aquarium fish for over 20 years, marine and freshwater. With varying degrees of success/failure depending on how you look at it I suppose. I have built and tested every filter imaginable - but TTs are something relatively new - to me anyway - the closest thing to a TT that I have used - and I assume a TT to be a trickle - not a gushing torrent of water - is a column filter - but that had a residence time of close to your 12 seconds, probably even less - back then I never measured these or wrote them down. I have decided to graduate to Koi, which is a very different thing altogether - and the filter systems that I have come across, in theory, do not match the required task at hand. So yes, I am biased towards the Nexus and Answer - purely from a theoretical point of viw - as well as being practically recommended by highly regarded Koi keeping people.

But I haven't had a satsifactory explanation on nitrate removal yet. Yes, Kaldnes does the job but I want to know why. This is why I've been following this thread - but I haven't yet seen a satisfactory answer that fits in with the theoretical data. As I don't yet have my pond I suppose the only way I'm going to get it clear is to experiment with it myself.

But I have to say that in all my years, solids removal I have found to be not only important but absolutely critical to the performance of any filter system. This is why the Answer excites me so - it should eliminate any bad smells (rotting) from any stage in my pond. I set my standards very high, although the less work to keep them the better as far as is possible. My tanks run clean but it is a lot of work to keep them this way - solids are the biggest problem and I don't like rotting crap in my tanks!

All happy and clear?

Billy Boy


goldy
User

Mar 11, 2004, 12:48 AM

Post #235 of 311 (38410 views)
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Re: [BillyBoy] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

hi billyboy
happy and clearBlush.
i cant comment on the nexus and k1, i think the answer is a brilliant idea but not infalable,
haveing less crap in the fillter is better, but i think you would still have to clean them just as often, so i prefere simplisity, getting nitrate down to zero would be a great help ileaviating string algy which is a big problem in crapping up the filters ceirtanly in my case.
given the choyce in reducing nitrate by deoxygenating or oxygenating the water through the fillter i would choose the latter.
i will post if there is any significant changes in my nitrate readings when weather warms up,
best of luck with your experiments
goldy


goldy
User

Mar 22, 2004, 6:52 AM

Post #236 of 311 (38095 views)
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Re: [BillyBoy] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

i have two pumps running my fillter one stopped working a few days ago, so i altered the spray bars to get an even distribution over the media allthough i was only getting 800 galls apposed to 1600 i was'nt conserned becouse the temp was still low, just started feeding wheatgerm once aday.
all water peramiter's ok, nitrate was 6mgl probably down to more algy growth? i thought. [ still could be ]
took a nitrate reading today zeroSly,
i rigged up an extra fillter, hlf size[ 20 gall] of my main one, sterilized some old media from a previus pond, fitted the pump running about 400 gals, tempriture's up to 9 now,
neary t shirt weatherCool
see how it goes finger's crossed,
all the best goldy


asvin.b
Novice

May 10, 2004, 4:37 PM

Post #237 of 311 (37205 views)
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Re: [BillyBoy] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello there,

I'm from Mauritius and to be honest with you guys, bioballs are very expensive and difficult to get down here. I have to make a TT for my pond which i am going to add to my already existing bio filter. I was wondering if I could used PVC pipes, 1 cm to 1.5 cm in diameter, the white one cut into small parts of 2 cm covering an area of 1 feet by 1 feet witha depth of 1.5 feet. What do you think? will it work as a TT media. please advise? Thanks.

Asvin.b


dttk
Veteran

May 11, 2004, 11:36 AM

Post #238 of 311 (37144 views)
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Re: [asvin.b] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

asvin, yes that'll work too. In fact, any old hair-curlers, rocks or shell can also be used in a TT. The width of 1ft is ok but the depth of 1.5ft is abit short. Have at least 3ft of depth and the TT should work well. Remember to have enough holes for air to enter and leave. Smile
Always friendly :)


khaku2
Novice


May 12, 2004, 11:46 AM

Post #239 of 311 (37064 views)
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Re: [dttk] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

ive heard that rocks or even old concrete fountains work really good, correct me if im wrong.
im using a poiece of fountain the stick part that holds the bowl that over flows with water, and ever since ive done that my pond water is really clear





Warning : This khaku2 has made a great number of posts in this forum and most of them are posted just for the sake of posting. You may wish to ignore his post if you are not sure whether what he posted is right or wrong.



dttk
Veteran

May 12, 2004, 12:27 PM

Post #240 of 311 (37060 views)
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Re: [khaku2] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

Any irregular surface that is continuously in contact with water and air is good media for TT. Smile
Always friendly :)


khaku2
Novice


May 12, 2004, 10:19 PM

Post #241 of 311 (37036 views)
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Re: [dttk] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

then i guess im doing the right thing, thanks Dttk





Warning : This khaku2 has made a great number of posts in this forum and most of them are posted just for the sake of posting. You may wish to ignore his post if you are not sure whether what he posted is right or wrong.



chiselchst
Novice

Jun 19, 2004, 11:05 AM

Post #242 of 311 (35708 views)
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Re: [asvin.b] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

Lee's Bio-Pin Balls are available (here in the USA?) for 0.054 cents each, or $30 dollars USA for 1 cu ft, or 7.5 gallons. That's the large balls, that are 1 5/8" in size, 74 to a gallon.

Are these available where you are?

Trying to help...

Mitch
My Opinion - Worth What You Paid For It...


poobs
User

Jan 23, 2005, 10:47 PM

Post #243 of 311 (29743 views)
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Re: [Doc Conrad] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

Guys/Gals

Before I drown in this green soupMad

I have 2500 gal pond

Filter consisits of 100 Gal. of mainly japanese matt with about 2000 gal flow thru it. The design is comonly known as the Skippy filter.

How large a Trickle Tower would I need to suplement the above filter???.

Would any home made or less expensive media work??

ThanksSmile


DocRodConrad
User

Feb 11, 2005, 9:20 AM

Post #244 of 311 (29453 views)
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Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post

I have been studying the science aspect of how trickle towers reduce nitrates (and nitrites) for many years through many careful studies of my own, most of them unpublished. Unpublished because until I understood the mechanism, I did not want to say any more about the subject.

I don't know nor care whether the nitrate conversion is due to anerobic or aerobic bacteria, the point is that it really doesn't matter anyway, whether the bacteria form is aerobic or anerobic.

So let's get to the key points without any more chaotic discussions.

The way trickle tower filters, or shower filters, or well aerated submerged media filters get rid of nitrates is to adequately degas the variety of nitrogen oxides that are formed from nitrate and nitrite conversion. That is why the media needs to have good air contact, the nitrogen oxides must escape into the air for the nitrogen to leave the water. If the nitrate or nitrite conversion occurs in submerged media that is not well aerated, the nitrogen oxides which are the product of bioconversion get dissolved in the water to react to make more nitrites and nitrates.

There is a chemical equilibrium between the chemicals nitrate, nitrite, and nitrogen oxides in the water. This equilibrium is promoted by the bioconversion bacteria. However, to drive the equilibrium toward less nitrate (and nitrite which is in chemical equilibrium with nitrate), the nitrogen oxides must be removed by the aeration process of degassing the products of biofiltration. It is no wonder that directly degassing these nitrogen oxides by having the bacteria in contact with air is a lot more efficient than even strong aeration of submerged media.

If you don't understand this explanation, ask questions. If you don't believe my explanation, I don't care, this old research chemist has spent at least 2000 hours researching the subject through his own research and reading the scientific reports of other researchers who spent millions of dollars tracking down the answers. So if you don't agree with lots of reserach and researchers, that is your perogative, you can have any opinion you want about it on a public message board. But don't expect me to argue with you about the science, I spent way too much time and energy to make sure I understand it.

By the way, there is another scientific "kicker" to this subject. It is the effect of trace minerals. If you don't have them in the pond, or in the water, or in the biofiltration media, you won't get the low nitrates from the trickle towers and shower filters. Apparently the trace minerals affect the equilibrium or the efficiency of the biofiltration bacteria, I have NOT figured out which the trace minerals help do the work yet. But stay tuned, in few more years I will have figured that one out, too.

And, by the way, thanks so much for keeping this wonderful thread alive all these years while I was trying to figure out the science of it.
Roddy Conrad, Charleston, WV, USA


poobs
User

Feb 11, 2005, 9:48 AM

Post #245 of 311 (29456 views)
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Re: [DocRodConrad] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post

Doc

Thanks for replying and for the information. I wasn't at all trying to get on your case. I was just peed off at my green soupCrazy

The flame on top of my post was an accident.

Any way..I've since found a nice plan/ article for a trickle tower that I will hopefully build.

Most important however I cleaned all organic junk from my pond consisting of about 1 55gal drum full of pea gravel, leaves and one dead fish.

I also did an actual measurement of my pump flow and found it woefully under volumeBlush

Hopefully my green water problems are over

My family now loves my pond Smile


koiguyoz
Koi Kichi


Feb 11, 2005, 12:59 PM

Post #246 of 311 (29436 views)
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Re: [poobs] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post

I stand by my trickle towers that run for each one of my two ponds. The research undertaken by Dr. Roddy Conrad that I've read contain plausible explanations for the hyper efficient nature of the trickle tower.

Fact
One empty 4500 litre pond that I had had a algal bloom that only took only week for a trickle tower sized at 300 litres and filled with lava rocks, dacron and bird netting to clear completely right down to the bottom. The water is pumped in at 6000 litres per hour.

It works right now, after zero cleaning with several 12-15inch koi keeping the water clear.

The other pond sized at 1000 litres, and has a 150 litre trickle tower filled with the same materials as above, pumped at 2000 litres per hour, has maintained crystal clear water since it's beginning. Huge fish loads were placed on the system without a hint of green water ever coming through. Current occupants number 30 + 4-6inch koi and other goldfish.

I've used submerged biofilters and never found them to easily take out pea soup green...in fact I might make a trickle tower for my aquarium as well!


HWONG
Veteran

Feb 11, 2005, 7:35 PM

Post #247 of 311 (29421 views)
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Re: [DocRodConrad] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post

Doc, Thanks for dropping in. HAving struggled to keep stable water, I installed a 4 tray 5foot shower system fed by a 12K litre/hr pump. Since then, I have managed to stabilised water quality. Someone said that degassing cannot happen if the water is a shower and not trickled. What is your take on this?

Another observation I made. During the last 2 weeks, the sun has been extremely strong and weather is dry. I had a sudden "string" algae bloom. Even stopping feeding didnt help and the water was starting to turn green. I decided to increase aeration with 5 airstones powered by a 40 watt hiblow and dumped a liter of boottled bacteria. Two days later, the water is clear.

Question is; Did the strong sunlight and temperature cause the algae bloom.


DocRodConrad
User

Feb 12, 2005, 6:58 AM

Post #248 of 311 (29406 views)
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Re: [HWONG] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Quote from above: Doc, Thanks for dropping in. HAving struggled to keep stable water, I installed a 4 tray 5foot shower system fed by a 12K litre/hr pump. Since then, I have managed to stabilised water quality. Someone said that degassing cannot happen if the water is a shower and not trickled. What is your take on this? Roddy: I find shower filters are even more effective than normal trickle towers, and have run 20 separate shower filter experiments of my own to collect and understand their construction and scientific basis. The shower filters dependably cycle for me in 10 days or less for ammonia and nitrite, the cycle time for nitrate is highly variable experiment to experiment.

Quote from above: Another observation I made. During the last 2 weeks, the sun has been extremely strong and weather is dry. I had a sudden "string" algae bloom. Even stopping feeding didnt help and the water was starting to turn green. I decided to increase aeration with 5 airstones powered by a 40 watt hiblow and dumped a liter of boottled bacteria. Two days later, the water is clear.

Question is; Did the strong sunlight and temperature cause the algae bloom. Roddy: When I have an algae bloom when using shower or trickle tower filters, in my own case I have always traced the cause to high phosphates in my city source water. The city engineers here in Charleston, West Virginia, USA, routinely add phosphorus compounds to both kill mussels and to protect metal pipes from rusting. So my source water runs typically 5 to 30 ppm phosphate, a very high level. When the biofilters of algae has consumed the phosphates, the algae goes away, in my case. But this is very situation dependent, the cause of your algae issues may be quite different. In my situation, if I do a large water change with my city source water, I can expect an algae bloom from the high phosphates. So instead of doing water changes, I instead regenerate the water with potassium permanganate. Those practices are quite controversial, compared to the subject of trickle tower and shower filters, which almost everyone agrees are a very good way to filter pond water. So to answer your question truthfully, I don't know exactly what cured the algae problem in the situation you describe. To know for sure would require a bunch of water quality measurements that most folks are not equipped to collect. Meaning extremely accurate measurements of ammonia, nitrate, and phosphate levels. And maybe a few other parameters depending on the situation.

Roddy Conrad, Charleston, WV, USA


HWONG
Veteran

Feb 12, 2005, 8:40 AM

Post #249 of 311 (29392 views)
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Re: [DocRodConrad] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post

Doc, thanks for your reply. Most of the time we hobbyist merely mimic what others do. At least in this case and from your experiments we know that showers are effective.

I never did test our piped water aside from PH. Being the lazy me, I am happy that water is now clear!Smile

Doc, Pls keep up your good work and there will always be detractors to irritate us. You are ok by my books. We all just have to sieve thru all the info and use whatever we feel will help us.


Bukitbunggakoi
User


Feb 23, 2005, 2:49 PM

Post #250 of 311 (29065 views)
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Re: [DocRodConrad] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Doc, Great article. Thanks for the tip. I have a trickle tower I made myself from 2 X 55gallon plastic drum. It works fantastic but every 2 months or so, an algea bloom would occur and I have to repeat the cycle of opening up the top cover and reseeding the filter media. Now I will have to figure out how to create a flow through for the air to disperse the nitrogen oxide and possible CO2 buildup inside the drums. Cheers. Keep posting.

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