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High Nitrates Level? Try This!

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DocRodConrad
Koi Lover

Feb 24, 2005, 7:58 AM

Post #251 of 312 (23551 views)
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Re: [Bukitbunggakoi] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to]	Can't Post

I have three of the 55 gallon plastic drum trickle towers running on my indoor koi pond presently running a very high koi fish load. I put large air stones in the bottom of the plastic drums connnected to air pumps that I leave running all the time. That gives reasonably good degassing to reduce nitrates. However, I installed shower filters early this winter on that indoor pond as well, and the shower filters dropped nitrates to much lower levels, typically 2 to 4 ppm versus 20 ppm for use of only the plastic drum trickle towers.

The shower filters are large, I will take a picture of that setup and post it here on this thread in about two weeks, tomorrow I have to pack my bag for a ship cruise to the Caribeaan Sea where my wife thinks is a good winter vacation spot, cruise ship stops in the Cayman Islands, Key West in Florida, and a coastal spot in Mexico.

The indoor pond is a 15 feet diameter above ground swimming pool filled to 40 inches water depth, located in our basement, picture (before adding the shower filters) below:

Roddy Conrad, Charleston, WV, USA

Bukitbunggakoi
Koi Lover

Feb 27, 2005, 4:38 PM

Post #252 of 312 (23378 views)
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Re: [DocRodConrad] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Doc, Concerning the Nitrogen Oxide, is it heavier than air?, can this gas be vented naturally without the use of an air pump? Cheers

Viet01av6
Koi Lover

May 24, 2005, 11:20 AM

Post #253 of 312 (21260 views)
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Re: [Mark] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to]	Can't Post

can this system be put under ground before my main filtration system waterfall, where would i put my pump at then

Attachments:

Picture 018 (Small).jpg (88.8 KB)

vv
Koi Lover

Oct 21, 2005, 9:51 AM

Post #254 of 312 (18067 views)
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Re: [DocRodConrad] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to]	Can't Post

hi doc, how does the shower filters look like? can i see some pics? have some problems with nitrates. its always more than 30ppm.

larz1
Koi Kichi

Oct 21, 2005, 11:27 AM

Post #255 of 312 (18066 views)
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Re: [Viet01av6] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to]	Can't Post

I assume you must be referring to a Bakki Shower system, which is an above ground open air system that would not work in a below ground application (unless you dug a 10' deep pit with a massive sump pump at the bottom Tongue

). A typical Bakki shower consists of 3 large trays (shaped like a trough) filled with biomedia, with water flowing in a shower spray from top to bottom with large air spaces between the trays. The effect is much the same as a trickle tower but their is no need to add oxygen or vent nitrogen and co2 as it breaths freely. Some people incorporate the principle into their waterfall design with stepped falls feeding each other through lava rock or pea gravel media. I'm considering doing that on mine this winter.

jasonq
New User

Jan 10, 2006, 4:18 PM

Post #256 of 312 (16953 views)
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Re: [larz1] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Dear All,

Your discussion on this Bakki System was at length and depth which I considered investigate seriously since beginning of 2005. After having some confident in the results posted by many of you, I started building my own Goldfish pond (7*2.5*10, about 5000 litres water) with this bakki system (5*2, height of 5.5 ft with 4 trays) and a very simple mechanical and biological filteration (7*3*2) in March for three weeks.

I overfed the fish for the beginning of two months, readings got hair wired!

But after July until today, I consistently achieved 3 zeros with ammonia, nitrites and naitrates after tests perform forth nightly.

I have about 60 Goldfish in the pond, and now I feed them at least twice a day. I intent to add another 30 fish by CNY, and increase the feeding to four times a day; and am happy to post to you the results by March or April to come.

THANK YOU for your hard works which you have help people like me to enjoy the beautiful fish but healtier fish!

Jason Q.

fff
Koi Lover

Feb 1, 2006, 1:32 PM

Post #257 of 312 (16666 views)
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Re: [Mark] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi guys,

In ref to my earlier vertical wet/ dry design, I still cannot achieve zero reading for ammoia, nitrite and nitrate... I dont understand why...

Jus to check and conclude with you guys, the thumb of rule is to have:

1) Water to travel thru 18 inches of air before hitting media
2) Water need to go thru a column of at least 18inches of media.
3) Water turnover must be more than 3 times the pond volume
4) Air must be able to flow freely in between T/T so as to enhance the gas exchanges

Can anyone correct or verify my findings above?
Thanks.

dttk
Senior Member

Feb 16, 2006, 2:19 PM

Post #258 of 312 (16379 views)
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Re: [fff] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi, sorry for the late reply. Nos.1 and 3 are doubtful. Firstly, a small gap between water outlet and media would do. More importantly is the uniformity of flow ensuring that there is even contact of down flowing water with all the media. Secondly, a slightly longer contact period between water and media is better. Hence, one cycle per hour is sufficient. Even at this rate, it would appear as a shower instead of a trickle. Thirdly, the higher the media the better. Lastly, open to air all around.

The ability of the shower or trickle to remove nitrogen containing gases also depends on the type of media and the level of nitrates in the water to begin with. Smile

Always friendly :)

fff
Koi Lover

Feb 17, 2006, 7:38 AM

Post #259 of 312 (16361 views)
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Re: [dttk] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Doc,

Tks for reply.
If I am planning to use BH, will it be the best choice?

dttk
Senior Member

Feb 17, 2006, 9:19 AM

Post #260 of 312 (16358 views)
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Re: [fff] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to]	Can't Post

fff, sorry I'm not in the position to comment on this. Smile

All I know is many hobbyist are using BH in their shower system. It's not cheap and hence I'd prefer to wait for more confirmatory results from local hobbyists who are using it. Smile

Always friendly :)

neutokoi
Koi Lover

Feb 23, 2006, 5:35 PM

Post #261 of 312 (16243 views)
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Re: [vv] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to]	Can't Post

Dear all,
Found information on filter to reduce nitrate, pls refer to the following address..
http://o-fish.com/Filter/denitrator.php

Unfortunately the information is in Indonesian language, just look at the picture, below is the simple explanation:
- Create a vacum pipe/filter chamber (D) with 1 inlet(A) and 1 outlet(B) (anything as long as vacum, but can be open for maintenance)
- Make a very long pipe for inlet (C) ( as long as the filter can afford)
- Bio filter media inside the filter chamber (D)
- Use a pump to supply water into (A)

Logic:
Usually we create a filter and supply a lot of O2 to grow the aerobic (?) bacteria to consume ammonia & nitrite, this filter is designed to grow anaerobic bacteria to consume nitrate.
- The reason for vacum is not to allow the water to contact with O2 to prevent the growth of aerobic bacteria
- With the long inlet pipe (A-C), we expect the aerobic bacteria to grow inside the A-C, this bacteria will use-up all O2 in the water, by the time the water reach C, there will be very less or no O2, then the anaerobic bacteria will grow in the bio media (D) and start to consume nitrate.
- release water back to pond through outlet (B)

Hope this logic also work in my current pressurised bead filter Angelic

, the first half of the bead with aerobic bacteria to convert ammonia -> nitrite -> nitrate, at the same time use up all O2, then the last part of the bead have anaerobic bacteria to consume the nitrate Smile

Cheers,
Edo

Giggleswick
Koi Lover

Mar 5, 2006, 4:03 PM

Post #262 of 312 (16069 views)
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Re: [neutokoi] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi All,

I am new to this Koi keeping, also new to this forum. I do wish I find out more before I set the system up.
Anyway, can anyone help me on the following:

1. I have a pond without a bottom drain, what is the best way to remove debris off the bottom of the pond.
2. My nitrate is very high, reading is over 100 plus. At present, I use a multichambers system with vortex via pump feed. Is there a way to convert/modify to adopt into TT system?
3. At present, I try to pump water into a bucket with holes, back into the pond again, trying mix CO2 into water, but no filter media in the bucket. Would this reduce the nitrate. My main object is to reduce nitrate to zero, therefore hopefully, remove string algre.

With thanks.

Giggleswick

fff
Koi Lover

Mar 5, 2006, 4:39 PM

Post #263 of 312 (16066 views)
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Re: [Giggleswick] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to]	Can't Post

2. My nitrate is very high, reading is over 100 plus. At present, I use a multichambers system with vortex via pump feed. Is there a way to convert/modify to adopt into TT system?
Sure . Read ard, there is some idea in this forum. T/T or Bakki should help.

3. At present, I try to pump water into a bucket with holes, back into the pond again, trying mix CO2 into water, but no filter media in the bucket. Would this reduce the nitrate.

IMO, think it serve no purpose... try veggie filter...

neutokoi
Koi Lover

Mar 6, 2006, 12:45 PM

Post #264 of 312 (16042 views)
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Re: [Giggleswick] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi,
On your issue No.1, is the depth of the pond the same in all area? You can put the pump into the deepest area in the pond to suck the debris into your filter, or you can try to create some good water circulation or water current to bring the debris to the pump that supply water to your filter, you may consider installing some small/aquarium pump to push the debris.
On your next questions, I will recommend you to put some water plants into the bucket that you mentioned, or in the last filter chamber. Re. the TT design, try to search into this forum with 'TT' as key word, you may find a lot of good reference on how to set-up one.

Btw, how big is your pond and the koi population?

Cheers,
Edo

Giggleswick
Koi Lover

Mar 6, 2006, 9:08 PM

Post #265 of 312 (16028 views)
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Re: [neutokoi] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi;
Thank you all kindly for your reply. I will look into them and make adjustment in my testing before go ahead for final setting.

The concept of TT. I thought is mixing water with air, that's the reasons I use a bucket with many holes at present. I will put some filter media into it, ie. Jap Mating or some sort. probably starting some good bateria, I hope. Planting in the bucket is not an option, as the final version is not a bucket. I hope to be a big down pipr, say 6" diameter, hiding in one corner. I can imagine the final version will be two levels of water drop, inside a 6" diameter pipe, with holes for air to into/escape, and some sort of overflow and water will come from a home make surface skimmer yet to be finalise.

The pond is nearly flat. Forgetful of me not to put bottom drain and skimmer in the first place, as I was rushing to do many other DIY jobs around the house at the same time. Is it a good idea to leave the pump to suck anything in, and empty the vortex of the multi-chambers, say once every 2 days, so I can get as much debris off the pond. or it is better to have some sort of protection for the pump, ie, a filter media, then a bigger object won't be able to such up at all. I try to empty the vortex once a day, or every other day, and top up with tap water.

I have been reading the subject on 'TT' for the last few weeks, but no joy into better understanding. My conclusion at present is water mix with air, into filter media, hopefullu reduce nitrate, therefore no algae. Or is it that simple. My objective is remove algae and have a clear pond. At present, the water is quite clear, probably beacuse of the big UV I installed. But the pond wall and plant bucket in the pond is full of the string algae. Using commercial products will be my last option. Any other options in reducing nitrate??? Any comment will be hopeful indeed.

Thank you kindly in advance.

Cheers

Giggleswick.

tangigi3
Koi Lover

Mar 8, 2006, 2:57 PM

Post #266 of 312 (15983 views)
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Re: [Giggleswick] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Giggleswick,

what do you use to move water from your pond to your filter chamber? submersible pump? gravity via side drain?

lar

Giggleswick
Koi Lover

Mar 9, 2006, 5:47 PM

Post #267 of 312 (15961 views)
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Re: [tangigi3] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to]	Can't Post

A 2740l/hr submersible pump.

Giggleswick

neutokoi
Koi Lover

Mar 10, 2006, 12:42 PM

Post #268 of 312 (15936 views)
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Re: [Giggleswick] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Giggle,
Talking about TT, my understanding is somehow similar to you, the good bacteria need a lot of surface area to grow and they need a lot of O2 to convert Ammonia -> Nitrite and then nitrite -> nitrate as final product, thats the reasont they comeup with the concept of TT or BS, we have the media for bacteria to grow, then let the water to contact as much as possible to air to supply O2.
In this whole long thread is to discuss/prove that somehow this TT also can reduce nitrate, which is scientificly shouldn't be the case, as usually nitrate only be consumed by bad bacteria (that will not grow in the place with O2), or being consumed by plant, but some people did claimed that thier TT can reduce nitrate.

Coming back to your issue on debris removal and high nitrate, I will recommend you to:
- pump as much as debris out of the pond to the settlement chamber and empty it as much as possible, with the reduction of debris, you have reduce also the chance of ammonia build-up that at the end will also reduce the nitrate as final product
- more frequent small water changes, which you can do it at the same time with the above process, emptied the settlement chamber, then top-up with fresh water, if you use tap water, pay attention to the chlorine.
- Create a simple vegie filter, put a small chamber/container etc near the pond, put a lot of water plant in it, pump in water after the UV into this container and let the overflow from this container back to your pond, hope this plant will consume a lot of nitrate, select plants that is very invasive like water hyacinth or water lettuce, they need nitrate to grow, if you see them grow, it means some nitrate being consume, faster they grow, more nitrate consumed.
- If your kois are not vegetarian, you can even put the plant in the pond
- take precausion that there is a possibility that plant introduce some parasite to your fish, some sort of clean-up of the plant may be required
- Stop or reduce feeding for some time

Hope you can have the nitrate reduced... Sly

Giggleswick
Koi Lover

Mar 11, 2006, 5:46 PM

Post #269 of 312 (15908 views)
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Re: [neutokoi] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi

Thank you for your advice.
No my Koi is not a vegie, they even take the tender leaves of the pond plant. Anyway, I heard one time that the plant in pond won't take as much nitrate as one think. I try to put more plant in the pond, for shading, but the Koi kill most of them.

Do anyone know if more O2 in pond would reduce nitrate? I have an unused new tank pump (AquaClear 802 Powerhead). I am thinking of feed it via a surface skimmer with "venturi" areation. Just below the water line, this would give more air in the water. I am not sure rather the Koi love it or not. Apart from the Koi, would it help with nitrate? Anyone know?

Multi-chambers filter, it is necessary to have a air stone in each chamber. help to cycle Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate, would it means more nitrate in pond? I got a feeling that the O2 bubbles would unsettle the debris (rubbish) in the Jap. Mat. in setting, therefore drop to the bottom of the chambers. If this is the case, it will stop the chambers from clogging up. Anyone know further info. on this, or is it that I am dreaming.

To my suprise, my water is quite clear. But I just can't stop the algre grow, even in cold weather as now, I just clean the pond wall with the bloom last week, as I see the pond this morning, they just start forming again! My last resort is to use commercial product. Can anyone recommend one that works !!!!!

I do try to clear the water inside the vortex every other day, and topup once a week.

As I said, I don't have a surface skimmer, I took a long while, but I manage to find a product called "Intex Above Ground Pool Wall Mount Surface Skimmer" that may do the trick. Just order one, I am sure this might work.

Thank you

Giggleswick

neutokoi
Koi Lover

Mar 13, 2006, 2:37 PM

Post #270 of 312 (15841 views)
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Re: [Giggleswick] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Giggles,
I'll comment only on the queries of whether O2 in multiple chambers to help the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate process and at the end create more nitrate. Indirectly the answer is yes, but the ammonica and nitrite reduced. Don't forget that ammonia & nitrite is more lethal to our kois as to compare with nitrate.

Others may give additional input for giggles... pleeeeeeeease...

cheers,
Edo

Giggleswick
Koi Lover

Mar 13, 2006, 8:17 PM

Post #271 of 312 (15817 views)
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Re: [neutokoi] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Edo,
Thank you kindly for your comment.
A friend of a friend tells me over the weekend that a magnet bar (not the commercial wired one) would help to reduce the string algre.
Any one know more on this topic, or has been using one, can you please comment on this subject?

Thank you.

Giggleswick Smile

is the way forward .....

femme_artist51
Koi Lover

Apr 21, 2006, 10:32 PM

Post #272 of 312 (15044 views)
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Re: [Mark] High Nitrates Level? Try This! Mark [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Mark
I emailed you privately about your trickle tower. We do not have high nitrates and never had any trouble with the water. We do have a low PH.
I wanted to incorporate your wet dry filtration system. Although we already have two filters for our smaller pond. I was wondering about your system. What is the size of your box. Also did you finally remove the filter mattings, but kept the heavy brush rolls?? I would think that both the filter mattings and both type of other filter material would be helpful. Why did you finally remove the matting??

The filters that we have are, one 1/2 whiskey barrel with matting, water drops onto the matting and is pumped back out to the pond. We have the water split, some water to this barrel and some to a round holding area above the pond. This water comes up from below the matting, flows throught he matting and then drops over some rocks to a stream and into a plant bog, then into the pond. I was hoping this would be okay. We get lots of algae in the stream. The plant bog is great in the summer. I wonder about the winter, as the plants will die off.

Thanks, any info would be great. Do I need to filter my mud pond. I was told I didn't need to, just to have oxygen. I also think I need to add more air to my lined pond. Again thanks, Lynda

goldy
Koi Lover

Apr 30, 2006, 11:02 PM

Post #273 of 312 (14855 views)
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Re: [Giggleswick] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to]	Can't Post

HI ALL
Not been here fore a while but some interesting point have been raised, I have been running a shower type filtration for years and been interested in orp for as long.
I did get zero nitrates in the shower but this was achieved by a build up of detritus creating anaerobic conditions. But not healthy for the koi.
The shower is now more open for air circulation with no detritus (crap) to create anaerobic conditions but still zero nitrates.
It has been said before that the anaerobic conditions live inside the build up of the bacterial layer which I agree with. No crap just filtration.
Depending on temp light filter media plus a number of other conditions will determine the outcome of the shower.
If any one is interested in orp, the reading directly below the shower is � minus 276 yet the shower is clean?

John

zoul
Member

May 8, 2006, 1:03 AM

Post #274 of 312 (14729 views)
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Re: [goldy] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to]	Can't Post

wow my eyes are bleeding now.
That was fantastic.
Good to see people are testing stuff properley.
I wonder if its worth putting on a TT after my veg filter although i don't have any problems with nitrates it might look nice.

maxek
Koi Lover

May 17, 2006, 9:32 AM

Post #275 of 312 (14571 views)
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Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to]	Can't Post

One quick question. I have been reading about TT and BS for a very long time. I understand principals but some people say to keep bio media in a dark because light will kill good bacteria. And on the other hand some people say to keep filter open as much as possible to the air. Which one is true??? I have TT running and Do not know what to do. Right now I have kept it in a dark, closed up. Air has a way to get in because it is not air tight. Water temp is 62F.

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