Koi Forum (Nishikigoi - Japanese Koi Fish): KOI Talk: Pond Construction & Water Filtering System: High Nitrates Level? Try This!: Page 8

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High Nitrates Level? Try This!

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SMW1
Koi Kichi

Sep 17, 2002, 9:55 PM

Post #176 of 312 (32586 views)
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Re: [RichardD] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Its the same as a normal filter. could be a couple of weeks, could be months.

firstkoi
New User

Sep 18, 2002, 5:46 AM

Post #177 of 312 (32581 views)
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Re: [SMW1] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to]	Can't Post

I am new here but i have a quick question. is it possible that the nitrates being removed in a TT are actually being removed by dissipation? i mean if you let water with hi nitrate sit for awhile by itself will the nitrate evaporate? also a lot of the marine aquarium guys have dropped their trickle filters when raising corrals and corraline algea, algeabeing the key term. of course they wouldnt want something that filters out algea food. but when you are talking about fish only tanks then they say "use the trickle filter". well gotta go lots to learn for my "firstkoi"

Khoobg
Webmaster

Sep 18, 2002, 10:01 AM

Post #178 of 312 (32573 views)
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Re: [cometress] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to]	Can't Post

6 Feet will be a good height for your TT. For better result, please use a low flow rate to your trickle.

SMW1
Koi Kichi

Sep 18, 2002, 2:43 PM

Post #179 of 312 (32570 views)
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Re: [firstkoi] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi,

welcome to the forum.

In stagnant water nitrate will start to turn from liquid to a solid form (eventually over a long period of time). With constant movement and the splashing that a tt provides I strongly believe that the nitrates are absorbed by the air. I have no way of proving this, this is just my theory, but it's hard to believe that bacteria alone are responsible for the removal of Nitrates.

johnson lee
Koi Kichi

Sep 18, 2002, 5:31 PM

Post #180 of 312 (32566 views)
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Re: [SMW1] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to]	Can't Post

I always thought that the wonders of the TT is its ability to remove nitrites and nitrates effectively from the system due to the gaseous exchange that takes place as the water trickles pass the air and into the dry media! Not so much of bacteria, but the O2 that helps converts them into nitrous oxide.

Of course, it has been proven that good bugs also helps to convert nitrites into nitrates but like Stuart, I cannot explain why both nitrites and nitrates can be removed by a TT filter. Just that I know through my own experience.

Johnson

SMW1
Koi Kichi

Sep 18, 2002, 5:43 PM

Post #181 of 312 (32565 views)
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Re: [johnson lee] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to]	Can't Post

I guess its the miricle of science. It's all a bit technical. There has been much discussion on Trickle towers, it seems as though even the people who now make them do not know exactly how they work. They just do, and I guess that's all that matters. Why are we all here on this planet ?. I don't know, but I'm not complaining Sly

koifun
Koi Kichi

Sep 18, 2002, 6:51 PM

Post #182 of 312 (32562 views)
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Re: [SMW1] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sorry Stuart, Smile

I need to clarify from chemistry point of view nitrate should not turn into solid so long it is in water as most if not all nitrates are extremely soluble in water.

Best Regards

"Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. - Euripides"

SMW1
Koi Kichi

Sep 18, 2002, 9:17 PM

Post #183 of 312 (32556 views)
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Re: [Koifun] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ah, thats very interesting. It doesn't surprise me that I am wrong and I'm glad that you corrected me. I was told by a koi dealer a while back that nitrates would solidify if left for a long period of time in stagnant water. The koi dealer who told me has also tried to bluff his knowledge in a few other areas of koi, so this is the reason I'm not surprised. Thanks for the update.

deep_end
New User

Feb 28, 2003, 1:22 AM

Post #184 of 312 (32303 views)
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Re: [SMW1] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi people,

I just signed up today after all these years in the fishy (but not Koi) hobby, so I hope I don't upset too many people by digging this thread up again!

Although I'm not into Koi much myself (my sis was a Koi breeder, though), perhaps I could throw some light onto why a TT works so well for removal of NH3, NO2 AND NO3, even though it's NOT supposed to work for NO3s. Why?

Basically, the nitrification potential of any biological filter depends on how much well-oxygenated water passes through a huge amount of filter media like bio-balls. BUT, the DE-nitrification potential to breakdown NO3 to N2 gas simply cannot be achieved in the same environment, since the denitrif. bact. are essentially anaerobic in nature.

And yes, I too am mostly into coral reef tanks nowadays, where NO3 was also a major problem for us, but not any more. When we used TTs in our marine tanks, NH3 and NO2 would drop super-fast, but NO3 would slowly climb, and climb, thus requiring monthly water changes just for the purpose of lowering the NO3 levels to below 20 ppm. Of course we use other methods nowadays to keep our NO3 levels to 0 ppm ALL the time, but these methods wouldn't work in a Koi pond, IMHO.

Coming back to the TT filter, I have a feeling it works for you guys because the key word here is "TALL". In a tall TT, the water entering the filter has lots of O2. But as it drips thru' the bioballs, the O2 is used up by the aerobic bacteria to break down NH3 and NO2. As the water continues flowing down, O2 levels are being depleted which would then enable the denitrif. bacteria to start growing more and more. This would then seem like the top portion of the TT would be the nitrif. part and the bottom, the denitrif. part. This could be why a short but wide surface area TT wouldn't be as effective.

This can be confirmed if someone has an ORP (redox potential) monitor that measures the readings at the point of entry, and the point of exit. If my guess is correct, there should be huge difference in the 2 readings.

Regards,

dttk
Senior Member

Feb 28, 2003, 11:52 AM

Post #185 of 312 (32289 views)
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Re: [deep_end] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi deep_end, welcome to the forum. Thanks for your input. What you mentioned is interesting. As far as I know, the TT is constructed in such a way that air flow throughout the media is sufficient by having openings at the sides of the tower. Some TTs are only made of a tall column of bioballs supported by a plastic cage or netting. Furthermore the choice of bioballs as media ensures that air and water are able to permeate the media easily. The chance of any anaerobic activity even at the lower end of the tower would be unlikely. Hence, it looks like we're back to square one. Perhaps like you said, measurement of the redox potential of the water at inlet and outlet may shed some light. Cheers! Smile

Always friendly :)

(This post was edited by dttk on Feb 28, 2003, 11:53 AM)

johnson lee
Koi Kichi

Feb 28, 2003, 2:09 PM

Post #186 of 312 (32282 views)
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Re: [dttk] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to]	Can't Post

I welcome you to the forum too deep_end! Smile

A very interesting postulation on your part! But I must say that the workings of a TT filter is still a mystery to me. Cheers!

deep_end
New User

Feb 28, 2003, 9:15 PM

Post #187 of 312 (32256 views)
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Re: [johnson lee] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to]	Can't Post

dttk & Johnson,

Thanks for the welcome. Dttk, you're right. If the TT contains air slots throughout its height, then my "theory" is shot to bits. But I have seen numerous TTs made without these slots, since water tends to seep out thru' them as well. At the end of the day, I guess it doesn't really matter WHY it works but that it actually does, for whatever reason.

adriel
Koi Lover

Mar 16, 2003, 7:43 PM

Post #188 of 312 (32190 views)
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Re: [jtang] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to]	Can't Post

in jakarta bioballs cost about S$0.05 or about Rp. 250 / each. the cost of transportation should not be too high. I will be glad to help anyone wanting to buy them. rully

DocRodConrad
Koi Lover

Apr 1, 2003, 8:51 AM

Post #189 of 312 (32102 views)
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Theory of trickle tower filtration to reduce nitrates [In reply to]	Can't Post

When denitrification is studied in scientific detail, the only way the nitrogen leaves the water, other than by plant absorption, is to convert nitrite to nitrous oxide and nitric oxide. This is true whether the denitrification occurs with either aerobic or anerobic bacteria. So how trickle towers work to denitrify (remove nitrogen) is independent of whether we argue it is done with aerobic or anerobic bacteria. If the nitrogen is already nitrate, the bacteria must first convert it to nitrite before making it into nitrous oxide and nitric oxide. If the pond starts up on trickle tower filtration, nitrates should never form if the trickle towers are properly constucted with enough capacity.

There is another trick to starting up new ponds, namely the use of a large dose of calcium bentonite clay. The clay chemically binds the nitrite until the TT biofilms convert it to nitric oxide and nitrous oxide. So with the right formula of clay charge and TT construction, a new pond and new filter never has to have any measurable nitrites, or nitrates. I have done that myself literally dozens of times in "virgin new trickle tower" cycling experiments combined with high doses of bentonite clay.

The problem getting rid of nitrates in submerged media filtration is that the nitrous oxide and nitric oxide products of denitrification biofilm reactions redissolve in the water, and form more nitrites and nitrates. So these products of denitrification have a hard time to leave the water, and go around and around in a big circle.

In trickle tower filtration, those gases just exit to the air as they leave the trickle tower biofilm. And the nitrogen is gone. As has been discussed on this forum for several years now, it works.

On the matter of ORP readings, trickle towers increase ORP readings significantly. That is why trickle tower filters cure both green water algae and stringy algae, the ORP levels are increased by about 100 units to literally "burn up" the algae colonies in oxidation reactions. I have studied this effect for several years.

It continues to be a pleasure to have this valuable discussion thread saved for the ponding community as an excellent reference.
Roddy Conrad, Charleston, WV, USA

dttk
Senior Member

Apr 1, 2003, 3:25 PM

Post #190 of 312 (32077 views)
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Re: [DocRodConrad] Theory of trickle tower filtration to reduce nitrates [In reply to]	Can't Post

Doc, in other words, TT removes nitrogen from water by converting nitrite into nitric oxide and nitrous oxide gas and this is more easily achieved in anaerobic conditions than aerobic conditions since nitrate(NO3) has to be converted back into nitrite(NO2). If this is so, starving the bacteria of oxygen would help to speed up the process? Am I correct? Smile

Always friendly :)

DocRodConrad
Koi Lover

Apr 1, 2003, 7:02 PM

Post #191 of 312 (32066 views)
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Re: [dttk] Theory of trickle tower filtration to reduce nitrates [In reply to]	Can't Post

No one really knows for sure whether it is anerobic or aerobic bacteria that do the conversion of the nitrites to nitrous oxide and nitric oxide. From scientist who have studied it in great detail, both species of bacteria, meaning aerobic bacteria and anerobic bacteria, can convert nitrite to nitric oxide and nitrous oxide.

My point is that there must be lots of contact with the air to get rid of the nitrous oxide and nitric oxide. Without a lot of contact with the air, these oxides will dissolve in the water to make more nitrites and nitrates. The only good way to get them out of the pond is to make the air exchange good at the place the biofilm resides. That is best done in a trickle tower with lots of air exchange.

If they bacteria need to be anerobic, they will grow in a biofilm which becomes anerobic even with good air exchange at the surface.
Roddy Conrad, Charleston, WV, USA

dttk
Senior Member

Apr 2, 2003, 3:29 PM

Post #192 of 312 (32039 views)
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Re: [DocRodConrad] Theory of trickle tower filtration to reduce nitrates [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks for the explanation, Doc Smile

.
Always friendly :)

Just Me Koi
Koi Lover

Apr 12, 2003, 11:22 AM

Post #193 of 312 (31978 views)
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Re: [Mark] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hello Mark,
Thanks for your wonderful and informative experiments.

In concept, it seems as if a trickle tower allows the flow of water from the pond to go through a process where by the incoming water deposits it's settlements, then goes through a series of synthetic materials before returning to the pond!

What if I do one similar to http://www.blondieswebdesigns.com/water_garden/filter/biofilter.html
The entire system is in a 55 gallon drum. The water comes into a 4" pipe that goes all the way to the bottom of the drum. dumps into a 12" void, then upflows through about20" of synthetic filter mats. then through about 12" of top water filled with bioballs & water hyacinth, then out to the pond?

What do you think?

Just Me Koi from Rancho Cucamonga, California
_______________________________________________
"Architecture is the ultimate erotic 'object'."
Bernard Tschumi, "Architecture & Transgression"

http://community.webshots.com/user/godwino

eid12345
New User

Apr 12, 2003, 11:50 AM

Post #194 of 312 (31971 views)
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Re: [Just Me Koi] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi There,

Anybody can tell me whether it is possible to run sand filter 24h/day by using submerge pump, then what is the benefit? can this help purfying the water like undergravel?

CyberET
Koi Lover

May 28, 2003, 10:37 PM

Post #195 of 312 (31725 views)
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Re: [eid12345] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm having nitrate problems, my ammonia is 0, nitrite is 0 too. however my nitrate is about 200mg/l. After reading the forums, I've read that TT are effective in removing nitrate levels, do you all know where I can get one in singapore or order one? because its a 4ton pond.. everytime change so much water to reduce nitrate, water bill also very $$$. Or can anyone in sg help me build one? After changing 80% of the water, nitrate went down to 50, the next day, its back up at 100.

A picture of my current filter

http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=1129573

cwnchong
Member

May 29, 2003, 4:31 PM

Post #196 of 312 (31709 views)
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Re: [CyberET] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to]	Can't Post

CyberET, TT is usually custom made or DIY ones. There are a few postings in this forum that are listed in the HOT TOPICS section. You can refer to it & make your own TT. It is a simple system. The system let your pond water trickle down in droplets from a height onto a set of bio filter material (placed above the water) & let the water dripped back into the pond from the soaked media.

Cheers

CRaider
Koi Lover

Jun 3, 2003, 8:13 PM

Post #197 of 312 (31634 views)
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Re: [CyberET] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to]	Can't Post

CyberET,
I do know someone who has ready made TT or they can custom for you i think.

"Ancora Imparo"

micky
Koi Lover

Jun 4, 2003, 12:32 PM

Post #198 of 312 (31608 views)
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Re: [CyberET] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi CyberET
You can solve this problem by pumping the filtered water to some planter box, elevated, then let the water drop back to the pond like that of a TT. Goodluck!
Regards, Micky

rogermoo
Member

Jun 12, 2003, 12:38 AM

Post #199 of 312 (31521 views)
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Re: [micky] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi CyberET and others,

I saw some pictures of something quite unique being used by the breeder Momotaro in this magazine name 'KIO BITO'. It's called a BAKKI SHOWER. Consisted of 4 separated stackable long decks; in 4 rows, sitting on top one another with empty air-space inbetween decks. In these decks are media for bacteria (so it is actually a bacteria filter house, in a way it is actually a TT). Water is from the top. What surprises me is its dual usage. In all the top 3 decks (all the 4 rows) are growing plants which looks like wet padi plants (or probably water weeds).

So you see, the water re-entering the pond are good water. The padi plants absorbs all the nitrate and the good bacteria in the 4 separated stacked decks does the rest of the job! So no nitrate!

Rogermoo7, the local koibond

(This post was edited by rogermoo on Jun 12, 2003, 12:45 AM)

leej
Koi Lover

Jun 12, 2003, 8:54 AM

Post #200 of 312 (31520 views)
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Re: [Khoobg] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi,
Thanks for your diagram of a trickle filter. I am planning to build one according to your design and have a few questions. I hope you can help me with them.

1) Heavy Brush Rolls - are these the brushes that look like bottle cleaners sold in pet shops? Is so, how do I arrange them. The ones I saw in koi ponds are hanged vertically but the water flows horizontally. In your illustration, since the water flows upward, may I know how I should put the brushes?

2) Filter Mattings - Are these the typical Japanese Green matts sold in pet shops. I got a 1 mtr x 2 mtr x 2.5 cm Bio-Mat from a pet shop. Is this the one I should use?

3) PVC Piping - How can I reduce the flow of water from the pond into a "trickle" in the PVC pipe? Does increasing the size of the pipe, making a "T" outlet and drilling holes do the trick?

4) Cleaning of the filter media - Should I clean any of the filter media mentioned in the illustration? If so, which one? Brushes? Matts? Balls?

5) I also notice that there is no drain plugs in the illustraion. Do I presume that I should install one to flush out the solids and debris that settle at the bottom?

Thank you very much for your help.

leej

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