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Manhole

 





 


dannysao
Koi Lover

Jan 30, 2008, 9:36 PM

Post #1 of 20 (2164 views)
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Manhole Can't Post
Hi
Wanted a fish pond at the side door, about 13 x 6 x 2, but there is a manhole in this region, any suggestion if I don't want to relocate the manhole (4 x 3), afraid after relocation, if job not well done, will have leakage. The manhole basiclly have outlet from toilet upstair, toilet downstair and roof and seawage from the back.

Thinking hard on the design not to relocate manhole. Something like make it as an island etc.

Any advice?


thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

Jan 30, 2008, 11:34 PM

Post #2 of 20 (2158 views)
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Re: [dannysao] Manhole [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi Danny,

I think one of the solution that you may want to consider is to re-divert the piping from the current Manhole
to either run by the side of the fencing wall or adjacent to the house. By doing so, you have free the side garden
space for a deeper and trouble free pond.

I think making the Manhole as an island in the pond is certainly not the solution becos' you will also have
to take in consideration the problem of the existing pipings run from one Manhole to another. Secondly,
the water circulation within the koi pond will not be ideal.

Best Regards,
Thiam Hwa


dannysao
Koi Lover

Jan 31, 2008, 8:15 PM

Post #3 of 20 (2104 views)
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Re: [thiamhwa] Manhole [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi
So island option is out.
So if I relocate the manhole, it is still adviceble to have the manhole underneatch the fish pond? There is no way out, the pipe must be underneath the fish pond, otherwise I will forget about fish pond then. Look at the attached of the drawing of the place. I already measure the underneatch pipe about 6 in dia, and depth about 2 ft, just enough for the 2ft pond. That was my thinking. Basically I will relocate the manhole to the left of the pond, but the pipe still running under the pond.
Attachments: resized_fish pond.jpg (34.2 KB)


thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

Jan 31, 2008, 9:59 PM

Post #4 of 20 (2100 views)
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Re: [dannysao] Manhole [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi Dannysao,

As per your sketch, I don't think you have a choice but to build your pond over the existing piping. THe 4' x 3' Manhole
should not be re-located or else there will not be sufficient elbow bends for the smooth flow of sewerage discharge
from your toilets.

If possible, build the pond 2'0" below ground and 2'0" above ground. With a depth of 4'0", I think the pond may just
be workable. Your proposed 2'0" deep is really far too shallow becos' in our very hot tropical climate, the top 1'0" to 2'0"
of the water surface will be quite warm during the afternoon sun. I don't think the koi will enjoy that kind of warm water
condition.

Regards,
Thiam Hwa


(This post was edited by thiamhwa on Jan 31, 2008, 10:00 PM)


dannysao
Koi Lover

Jan 31, 2008, 11:42 PM

Post #5 of 20 (2088 views)
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Re: [thiamhwa] Manhole [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi thiamhwa
ya, discover that when dsicuss the design with the contractor, hence need to add 2 manholes actually one for relocation of the existing one, another is to solve the elbow issues, L bend problem.

Ya,contractor also proposed to build up the wall, but I don't like the wall, prefer to be level with floor, with 3 to 4 in from the ground level to prevent the ground overflow from rain water .

Another issues I have not to have it so deep is I still got one boy which is only 1 year old, I don't him to swim in the fish pond which have the height more then him, prevent any accident just in case. Hence 2 ft depth is for kids safety as well.

I really conside hard now, I have so many problem, fish pond deep is not enought, I need to relocate manhole, add manhole, pergola, not yet come to the filter issues yet etc..Not sure the fish pond will be realised.

This is really a big new games plan for me. Aquarium is totally different from fish pond, so many issue here.


whystay
Koi Lover

Feb 3, 2008, 8:22 PM

Post #6 of 20 (2041 views)
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Re: [dannysao] Manhole [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi Danny,
how deep underground are the pipes leading to the manhole? Usually, the pipes should be more than 2' underground. If so, then you don't have to shift them, just build your pond on top of the pipes and manhole. (may have to reinforce the earth above the pipes because the pond may settle about an inch and that may crack the pipes - maybe only.)
If the pipes are not in the way, it is a simple matter to relocate the manhole while sealing up the existing one so that the pond can go over it. You do have to hack the top 2' of the manhole shaft but that is no big deal. The cost to relocate a manhole can be about 2k which includes the permits etc. Need a licenced plumber to do it or at least sign off on it. Leave the toilet discharge pipes as is. Modern blockage clearing tools can go through the WC and clear just about any blockage.
Or you can just seal the existing manhole and hope you never have a blockage that requires access through that manhole (quite rare to have this kind of serious blockage but it can be a real headache when it happens). Not legal and maybe risky but many people have done it. Depends on how far away the other IC's (inspection covers) and manholes are and whether there is any other access for plumbers tools through the toilet bowl or floor trap.
Cheers


dannysao
Koi Lover

Feb 19, 2008, 2:16 PM

Post #7 of 20 (1917 views)
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Re: [whystay] Manhole [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi
Ya, decided to relocate the manhole the contractor charge me RM500 per manhole relocation.
One think I notice from you comment is permit for manhole relocation, do I really need a permit, and if I needed one where it is coming from ? DBKL? Alam Flora?

Ya, I will build the pond above one of the existing manhole, basically covered it up then build the pond above. But I wonder the contractor understand me of the bottom drain design stuff. He told me not to worry bcos he even build the swiming pool for banglow..I just wonder if there is a pipe below, how is he going to make the bottom drain, the manhole pipe is location in the middle of the pond.


dannysao
Koi Lover

Feb 19, 2008, 2:19 PM

Post #8 of 20 (1916 views)
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Re: [whystay] Manhole [In reply to] Can't Post
Attached is the manhole mentioned...
Attachments: P1040855.JPG (80.7 KB)


whystay
Koi Lover

Feb 19, 2008, 10:21 PM

Post #9 of 20 (1900 views)
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Re: [dannysao] Manhole [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi Danny,
I'm in SG so to me, RM 500 sounds cheap! Here its around 2k with permit. We need to get a permit because the shift has to be registered with the govt and has to be done by a licenced plumber. They want to make sure that we do not mess up their sewer lines! Maybe you don't need it in MY. I dunno.

As for your contractor, swimming pools and ponds are quite different. Yes, bottom drains are a good idea but only if you bench (slope) the floor to the drain. If the floor is not sloped, then the drain is not very effective especially if you feed a lot and the fish crap a lot! Also, air diffusers above the drain will help to guide dirt into the drain but not that much. In your case, since your water is 2 feet deep, I would suggest not having bottom drains but instead, aim you water return (from your pump) at the floor and left that stir up the debris. I suggest that you place your return pipe along the long side of the pond (lying along the fence line or the opposite side) on the floor of the pond. Drill holes in the pipe such that you get several jets of water shooting across the pond floor. That will stir up the debris and then can get picked up by your filter intake (where ever you decide to put it - its not that crucial now that you don't have a BD). Also consider having another pump on timer such that it adds extra current for a couple of hours a day to help stir up the dirt even more. As long as as you have enough turnover (once per hour should be more than enough), you won't see much debris.

But if you really want a bottom drain, then you need to hack the walls of the manhole down to the level of the pipe. Then, you need to place a cover over the exposed half pipe of the sewer. Fill in the gaps then build your pond. If there is no space because of the sewer pipe, then you have to put your BD to the side a bit. It won't make much difference to its (poor) performance. Performance will be poor because no sloping of floor.

Hope this helps.
Attachments: P1040855.JPG (74.6 KB)


dannysao
Koi Lover

Feb 20, 2008, 9:15 AM

Post #10 of 20 (1884 views)
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Re: [whystay] Manhole [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi
This is exactly what I am facing, the slope is not enough, after some thinking still cannot solve the bottom drain issues, may be will go without bottom drain, but i think bottom drain is a good way flush out dirt easily..

let me talk to the contractor see what he said..


thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

Feb 20, 2008, 11:32 PM

Post #11 of 20 (1855 views)
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Re: [dannysao] Manhole [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi Dannysao,

My main concern is the shallow depth of your pond. As for the bottom drains, I don't think that there is a
problem with criss-crossing of the existing sewerage piping.
I have attached herewith a proposed sketch drawing for your pond utilising the basic gravity fed filtration
system indicating all the pipings direction run.
Please note that I have not gone into details with regard to the filtration chambers design. For example,
the Settlement Chamber could be design like a Voltex system etc.
In this system, the main pond and all the filtration chambers shall have built-in bottom drains which are
connected to the Dry Chamber with removable up-stand pvc pipes to allow for waste products to be
discharged directly out to the nearest public drain.
For a more effective water current movement for the waste products, you may want to consider incorporating
a built-in Venturi system device into all the returning water outlets to the main pond as shown in the diagram.
Please also remember to provide concealed pipings for oxygen supply to all the Biological chambers to
encourage the growth of good nitrifying bacteria.
I hope the sketch plan layout is clear enough for you to better understand the workings of the filtration system.
Thank you.

Best Regards,
Thiam Hwa



dannysao
Koi Lover

Feb 21, 2008, 9:57 AM

Post #12 of 20 (1835 views)
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Re: [thiamhwa] Manhole [In reply to] Can't Post
Thiamhwa
any particular reason the filter chanrber split into 2 section, my guess is try to avoid the manhole piping at the bottom..
I am still learning and still try to imagine how the diff chamber look like such as Biological, Dry and Settlement Chamber look like in real live. Any real pic to show?


thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

Feb 21, 2008, 11:23 AM

Post #13 of 20 (1830 views)
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Re: [dannysao] Manhole [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi Dannysao,

The filter chambers are split into 2 section to allow for deeper chambers to house more filter media
and also to allow for a steeper fall on the base floor of the chamber for a more effective flushing out
of debris.

You are welcome to come over to view my simple pond system set-up. Please sent me a PM regarding your
contact nos. This weekend will be busy meeting up with a koi hobbyist's friend from Brunei to chit-chat koi and
visiting koi farms. Next weekend may be better for the visit. Thank you.


(This post was edited by thiamhwa on Feb 21, 2008, 12:07 PM)


ahtan40
Koi Lover

Feb 22, 2008, 8:55 PM

Post #14 of 20 (1781 views)
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Re: [thiamhwa] Manhole [In reply to] Can't Post
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dannysao
Koi Lover

Feb 25, 2008, 9:16 PM

Post #15 of 20 (1758 views)
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Re: [thiamhwa] Manhole [In reply to] Can't Post
thiamhwa
I show the drawing to my contractor, he said is too expensive to build 2 section of filter system, and proposed only build one section, and basically his design will have 3 typpe of pump, as he said, one "swimming pool" pump (with filter function) and another 2, one to pump back the clean water to the pond and another one to stir the water in teh pond.

My question is why there are so many pumps, and will it be a maintenace issue later on..

Also now I need to start thinking of what brand of pump to buy, I have zero knowledge of the pump brand and horse power etc..
Attachments: resized_kam fish pond design_20080225.jpg (33.3 KB)


thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

Feb 26, 2008, 1:03 AM

Post #16 of 20 (1748 views)
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Re: [dannysao] Manhole [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi Dannysao,

As the saying goes " Do it once and Do it RIGHT the first time " when koi pond construction is concern.
In my opinion, I think you should see a few more koi ponds before embarking on the project. If possible,
view ponds which have poor water quality due to in-effective filtration system and compared against
those which are successful. Once, you have a better understanding on the workings of the filtration
system, you will be in a better position to make your own design decisions.

In a conventional down and up gravity filtration system, one only need to install 1 no. pump for the whole
system. In the long run, it will save you a great amount of $$$$$ on the electricity bills.
In fact, recently I have cut down from using 2 pumps to just 1 pump now for my pond's system. My
electricity saving cost is about RM80-00 per month. That is enough to buy me a bag of 5kg koi pellet
every month.Wink

Best Regards,
Thiam Hwa


kumdoalan
Koi Lover

Feb 27, 2008, 9:31 AM

Post #17 of 20 (1678 views)
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Re: [thiamhwa] Manhole [In reply to] Can't Post
Any way to stay away from both the manhole and the sewer pipes?

I would not go near them.
It just seems like asking for trouble.


dannysao
Koi Lover

Feb 27, 2008, 1:00 PM

Post #18 of 20 (1661 views)
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Re: [kumdoalan] Manhole [In reply to] Can't Post
hi
construction started..digging the ground now..will get the pic up here soon..

that is the most strategic location..beside the side door of my semi d, i cannot find any other strategy location anymore, hence no choice need to relocate the man hole.

by the way, if with the design that my contractor proposal, will it work if I only use one pump..will the water be very dirty after few days..his reason for the swiming pool pump is to make the water as clear as swiming pool..

then u raise the valid question that TNB bill be an issues..

how about I will switch on the swiming pool pump on demand basis..set a timing..one hr per day or so..but this need to be tested then only will know the impact..

any advice..


dannysao
Koi Lover

Feb 27, 2008, 2:04 PM

Post #19 of 20 (1649 views)
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Re: [kumdoalan] Manhole [In reply to] Can't Post
hi
see the pic of the Work in Progress..the man hole relocation hole can be seen now..the original man hole still there u can see..
Attachments: P1050015.JPG (73.3 KB)


kumdoalan
Koi Lover

Feb 28, 2008, 9:19 AM

Post #20 of 20 (1616 views)
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Re: [dannysao] Manhole [In reply to] Can't Post
good luck, I hope everything works

 
 
 



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