Koi Forum (Nishikigoi - Japanese Koi Fish): KOI Talk: Pond Construction & Water Filtering System: My Fish Pond construction: Page 2

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My Fish Pond construction

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vince68
Koi Lover

Jul 18, 2008, 10:20 PM

Post #26 of 77 (1513 views)
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Re: [dannysao] My Fish Pond construction [In reply to]	Can't Post

danny, as what epal and thiam hwa show, make sure firstly that your bottom drain piping is the right size coz from the pitures, looks very small, 1 or 2 inches only? if yes, better change otherwise u will see that your water level in your filter will be lower than your pond, i mean very low...as its not sufficient to move the pond water into the filter through gravity....

secondly, learning from my mistake, pls make sure u have the drainage in each filter chambers and try to make it cone shape and make sure the valves are all at the same place with easy access. This will ease your maintenance work, as i made a big mistake as my contractor did it all wrong....

dannysao
Koi Lover

Jul 18, 2008, 10:37 PM

Post #27 of 77 (1511 views)
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Re: [vince68] My Fish Pond construction [In reply to]	Can't Post

vince
1. pipe - ya i am still struggle to get my contractor to change, which he refuse, just to correct you, the water flow will not via the gravity law, it will be suck into filter via pump..proposed by my contractor, and i think the bottom pipe is not deep enough to use the gravity law
2. filter drainage? what do u mean, i don see any drainage system in my filter section..got any pic to show?

vince68
Koi Lover

Jul 18, 2008, 11:04 PM

Post #28 of 77 (1505 views)
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Re: [dannysao] My Fish Pond construction [In reply to]	Can't Post

doesnt matter how deep, there will be gravity to suck the water from the pond to the filter, reason being water is being pump out from filter to the pond, hence gravity will push the water out to any openings, that is the drainage...

on drainage on filter chambers, refer to the layout drawn up by Thiam Hwa as your bottom should be cone shape and in the middle is the drainage where the pipe will lead out to drainage but make sure there is a valve so that whenever u need to clean the waste (which is very often), u can just turn open the valve and those waste will be drained out. Otherwise, u will have to use vacuum cleaner to suck those waste or install more pumps in those chambers to such out those waste (which is not as effective as drainage). Trust me, i'm having nightmare now, as now i install 3 pumps in the settlement chamber to suck out waste and do quarterly thorough vacuum to clear the waste which is an inch thick!!

dannysao
Koi Lover

Jul 18, 2008, 11:49 PM

Post #29 of 77 (1496 views)
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Re: [vince68] My Fish Pond construction [In reply to]	Can't Post

vince
I don think my filter area got any pipe or any drain lead to anywhere..shits, i not sure my contrator will want to do this..

look like i am start having headace even now, cannot imagine when i got the fish pond..should i regret to do the fish pond..??will i be having night mare..

vince68
Koi Lover

Jul 19, 2008, 2:15 PM

Post #30 of 77 (1479 views)
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Re: [dannysao] My Fish Pond construction [In reply to]	Can't Post

danny, since its not completed and the water proofing not done, might as well hack it again and get those pipings done before its too late. Sorry, u should look at the other Danny post where Thiam Hwa has some layout drawing.

U should do it otherwise u will regret like me...

dannysao
Koi Lover

Jul 19, 2008, 9:55 PM

Post #31 of 77 (1467 views)
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Re: [vince68] My Fish Pond construction [In reply to]	Can't Post

Vince
My contractor said if hack then the floor quality is not as good as original, bcos now the pipe is conceal, so if hack and redo, no guaranteen on leakage..shits..hate this..

AKA MATSUBA
Koi Lover

Jul 21, 2008, 12:04 AM

Post #32 of 77 (1417 views)
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Re: [dannysao] My Fish Pond construction [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Danny,

No means to rub salt to your wound, I think yours is a real disaster. The bottom drain looks like only 2-inch pipe, surely not good enough. Ask the contractor to add another 2nos. at mid water. It will help to maintain the water level in the filter, at the same time filtering mid water is good. You didn't mention about over flow and circulation piping?
They for sure wouldn't hack. Very messy job, worst than building a new pond. The slab gotta be thick enough (8 inch of concrete) to conceal some 3-inch bottom drainage pipings ideally. Just let it be now..
The filter is too small and short.. No time for settlement and too shallow to have funnels to collect fish waste as well. I suggest you use enough japanese mat will do. The contractor should know how to install a discharge pipe connected to the drain which will drain off the filter completely (during cleaning). At least all swimming contractors do when they build koi ponds... Unsure

Anyway, the pond looks too small and shallow for kois. Not that it couldn't rear kois but its OK if you are just a beginner and new to appreciate what really good kois are. Pergolas are good especially for shallow ponds. Without direct sunlight, meaning lesser temperature fluctuations.
About waterproofing the pond, get the contractor to apply a cementitious type as a pond lining. You may not need to add pineapple skin or etc to neutralise the akalinity resulting from the concrete and plastering.. Get them to install a unit of U.V as well.
This may not be an ideal pond for sure. Build another one if you have the space and when you are really a 'koi enthusiast'. This time, get a professional koi pond builder to help you at least. It will eliminate all the headaches you are having right now..

Good luck.

Epal63
Koi Lover

Jul 21, 2008, 9:22 AM

Post #33 of 77 (1396 views)
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Re: [dannysao] My Fish Pond construction [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Hi Danny,

Do not panic that there is no drainage pipe(s) from your filter to dispose the waste. Since you mentioned that the water is sucked via a pump into the filter, it is possible to use the same pump to channel the waste out from the filter chamber. It could be a valid reason why he is asking you to use a specific pump type. Best, you ask your contractor what he is planning to do. i.e. Ask him to explain how things will work in the pond. Once you have understood it, please share with us so that we can better understand the problem at hand, if any. Right now, it is not clear how your pond system is working.

It is not all that bad, Danny. Everything has a solution - it is a matter of finding it, and the most cost effective one.

And I tend to agree with the contractor's comment to minimize any hacking - you do not want to risk leakage resulted from the hacking. That will be an ultimate nightmare.

dannysao
Koi Lover

Jul 21, 2008, 10:38 AM

Post #34 of 77 (1384 views)
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Re: [Epal63] My Fish Pond construction [In reply to]	Can't Post

Epal
I already him and below is what he has explain to me.

1. I need 2 pumps - one to suck the water from pond to filter, and second one to pump the water from filter to water feature wall top.
2. filter there are 3 section of filter, first one water coming in, second one filter and 3rd one water to be pump to feature wall.
3. feature wall - at the top, there will be a water holding area, where over flow will flow down the wall, the wall is not 90 degree, it is sliding abit, abot 30 degeree i think.

what else you need to know, i think that is all about the pond..

Epal63
Koi Lover

Jul 21, 2008, 11:14 AM

Post #35 of 77 (1377 views)
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Re: [dannysao] My Fish Pond construction [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Danny,

Based on the information given, it seems that the filter is an up-down system. You should verify this. Water from 1st chamber will flow to 2nd chamber from the top, and from 2nd to 3rd from the bottom.

Being the case, technically, you do not need the pump in the 1st chamber. The gravity pull generated from the pump in the 3rd chamber will be sufficient to pull water from the main pond into your 1st chamber. ie a wasted pump, imho.

However, if there is no drainage pipe in the 1st chamber, a pump is required to clear the waste during cleaning.

2nd and 3rd chambers can be cleaned-up via the pump in the 3rd chamber by re-channeling the water to external drain during cleaning. This is because the 2nd and 3rd chambers are "connected" from the bottom.

The disadvantage of using pump to suck out water/waste during cleaning is that it cannot be very clean. Crazy

Since water is pumped back into the pond via the pump in the 3rd chamber, and via the feature wall only, the pressure up to the feature wall will be "controlled" considerably to have a nice effect.

The drawbacks are :
(1) there will be excess pressure not fully utilised unless there is another channel to pump the excess water back to the pond for water circulation
(2) if above item (1) excess pressure is not utilised, the pond water turnaround will be much lower than the pump capacity.
(3) the pump may choke if the excess is not taken care of.

vince68
Koi Lover

Jul 21, 2008, 11:48 AM

Post #36 of 77 (1371 views)
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Re: [dannysao] My Fish Pond construction [In reply to]	Can't Post

Danny, its not about make u worry but to ease your worry in future...as i have said, if ur contractor have not done the water proofing, its worth hacking and redo. Since they are not specialist, i doubt they use real concrete to build the base but merely mixing the cement with sand and pour all over and i really doubt the floor is that thick....just check with him...

Worst case, as what Aka said, ask him to drill 2 holes instead of 1, first into the first chamber (mid or lower near the base), second through the last chamber. WHY? first chamber is to get as much pond water into the filter since your piping for drainage is just too small hence may have a levelling problem. Second hole is for filter water from last chamber into the pond. WHy? water to the waterfall has limitation in terms of litres per hour. If u try to use the same capacity of your pond, trust me, the flow is overwhelm and the water will not flow properly thru the waterfall but instead splashing all over hence u will have to control the water flows which i believe your contractor will add valve to the said pump. If that happens, your water change over of 1 hour per cycle will not happen and u will also see stagnant water in your pond, ie bubbles or even waste (since i presume your floor is flat and not angled towards the drainage), will not flow that well. Secondly, it helps to create current in your pond so that your koi dont have undesired shapes and let them build their body better given that your pond is smallish. Worst case, if the said extra pump into your pond not good for whatever reasons, no harm, just get the fittings to close it off. Remember, for the second hole at the last chamber to pond, it should be about 6 inches below water level not mid way so that its enough current to move into your surface skimmer...ahh. on surface skimmer, do u have one? if not then u need another into your 1st chamber about 6 inches or lesser from your water level so that u can build a surface skimmer into your first chamber..

If u could, i would add a third hole to your last filter to facilitate wiring or air hose which u may need to place in your pond, ie lightings wiring, air pump hose etc....so that cosmetically looks good before your HM start screaming at u when u see wires hanging all over and also as u mention, to avoid children mendling with it.

Just my thoughts...

dannysao
Koi Lover

Jul 21, 2008, 12:36 PM

Post #37 of 77 (1360 views)
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Re: [vince68] My Fish Pond construction [In reply to]	Can't Post

Vince
1. bottom pipe - there are 2 bottom, you can see the picture I attached here, can see bit of the pvc pipe, left and right from middle.
2. change bottom pipe - i give up, my contractor refuse to change, always give me reason on the pump, and treated me if I change he will not guarantee if got problem later on. shit. I fade-up and just want to get rid of him asap. I will ask him to proceed and will see what problem later and fix it on the run.
3. skimmer - what it is? not really can understand what you mean? what is the purpose? to get rid of on the water surface?

Attachments:

P1070604.JPG (60.8 KB)

Epal63
Koi Lover

Jul 21, 2008, 1:26 PM

Post #38 of 77 (1355 views)
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Re: [dannysao] My Fish Pond construction [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Danny,

You do not need to change the bottom pipes. Aka and Vince have already suggested the workarounds for you.

But do bear in mind with regards to Vince's suggestion on 2nd hole.

Just the hole alone, i.e. Vince's term - 2nd hole, in the 3rd chamber to facilitate water going from the 3rd chamber to the pond, will not work to its intended purpose. ie. water will be sucked in from the pond into the 3rd chamber instead - defeating the filter purpose.

The purpose of the hole is to provision a pipe to channel the excess pressured water from the pump in the 3rd chamber into the main pond.

So, please take note

vince68
Koi Lover

Jul 21, 2008, 2:04 PM

Post #39 of 77 (1340 views)
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Re: [Epal63] My Fish Pond construction [In reply to]	Can't Post

ok, let me explain, epal if right, the hole in 3rd chamber to facilitate water from 3rd chamber to main pond is with the inclusion of anther pump, meaning u need to place a pump to pump the water into the pond thru that hole, to have enough water being circulated as mentioned of the impossibility to circulate entirely thru the water fall. THe 2nd hole in the same chamber is provision for wirings/ air hose etc so that u dont have to run above the pond for cosmetic reasons. THis is thru mistakes.

As for surface skimmers, just get your contractor to make the hole and preferably 2inch diameter and place a 2inch PVC pipe across and make sure u have another 6 inches extruding from each end. Once done, u can just buy an elbow and add the PVC pipe so that it will be just below surface area (get a cap with holes which u can get from fish shop or hardware shop to avoid smallish fish or food gets into the skimmer and filter).

As for the contingency hole in chamber 3, i think standard pumps run on 1 inch pipes, hence ask him to place a 1 inch pipe in the 2 holes again, with 6 inch extrusion for you to add the connection later or adjust it shorter etc if necessary or add end cap to close/ seal if not in use.

dannysao
Koi Lover

Jul 22, 2008, 9:46 PM

Post #40 of 77 (1282 views)
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Re: [vince68] My Fish Pond construction [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi
Going crazy seeing they hack the pond wall and put the pipe..my pond koyak...

Epal63
Koi Lover

Jul 23, 2008, 10:11 AM

Post #41 of 77 (1255 views)
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Re: [dannysao] My Fish Pond construction [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Danny,

What exactly the contractor is doing? or has agreed to do after your discussion with him?

dannysao
Koi Lover

Jul 23, 2008, 11:07 AM

Post #42 of 77 (1248 views)
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Re: [Epal63] My Fish Pond construction [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi
They hack the walll and put the pipe, see the picture attached?

Attachments:

P1070678.JPG (67.7 KB)

vince68
Koi Lover

Jul 23, 2008, 11:52 AM

Post #43 of 77 (1242 views)
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Re: [dannysao] My Fish Pond construction [In reply to]	Can't Post

danny, as i have said, u need to get the contractor to drill holes at the walls between the main pond and filter....as per described earlier...no hacking required since your contractor is reluctant.

Make sure u have the following holes drilling on the walls between the main pond and filters

(a) first filter hole - about 6 inches below water level
(b) Third filter/ chamber - about 6 inches below water level - for extra pump to pump water from filter to pond (contingency)
(c) Third chamber - in the middle for wiring./ air hose etc (contingency)

lastly, as i have said, best if u could have a bottom drain in your first filter/ chamber so that u can drain out the waste regularly wihtout having to use vacuum...

dannysao
Koi Lover

Jul 23, 2008, 12:06 PM

Post #44 of 77 (1239 views)
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Re: [vince68] My Fish Pond construction [In reply to]	Can't Post

Vince
Too be honest, I myself also not get it clear yet the objective of the holes of the wall between filter and pond, and how it really work, I cannot talk the contractor..you don't mind explain the concept how it work?

vince68
Koi Lover

Jul 23, 2008, 1:08 PM

Post #45 of 77 (1235 views)
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Re: [dannysao] My Fish Pond construction [In reply to]	Can't Post

dont worry about the concept as yet. Just get hte contractor to drill the hole as per description and put a 1 inch piping in the hole with about 6 inches of extrusion on either end to facilitate the fittings or to temporary seal when not in use.

(a) the first is to put a surface skimmer on the main pond and the flow is into the first chamber
(b) Second is for another pump in the event your pump for waterfall does not give enough volume to turn around the water cycle in 1 hour
(c) third is to facilitate wirings/ air hose if necessary whcih u can have it mid way or above the water level. Pls note if mid way, u may have to get some rubber sealant to protect water to flow into the last chamber...as its only meant to facilitate wiring/ air hose or if u use uni ring, this is where the hose can go through since u didnt do any upfront.

dannysao
Koi Lover

Jul 23, 2008, 3:25 PM

Post #46 of 77 (1220 views)
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Re: [vince68] My Fish Pond construction [In reply to]	Can't Post

vince
roughly got you, it is for skimmer and overflow from chamber to chamber..will talk to my contractors.

dannysao
Koi Lover

Jul 24, 2008, 10:05 AM

Post #47 of 77 (1168 views)
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Re: [dannysao] My Fish Pond construction [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi
The feature seem to be very tall...any comments.

Attachments:

P1070717.JPG (68.9 KB)

Epal63
Koi Lover

Jul 24, 2008, 10:45 AM

Post #48 of 77 (1165 views)
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Re: [dannysao] My Fish Pond construction [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Danny,

Since the water will flow down the wall rather than off the water - (water fall feature), imho height of the wall is not an issue. It would nice, actually.

Looking that the two photos you posted recently, the pipe going up the feature wall is very small. That's ok since the required pressure/volume of water to the feature wall is minimal. If the pump (OM2?) in the filter chamber is dedicately solely to pump water to the feature wall, then your pump is grossly under used. The pond water turn-over is will very slow.

Are there any pipes from the filter chamber going out for additional water circulation? The 1st of the 2 photos seems to indicate there is another pipe.

dannysao
Koi Lover

Jul 24, 2008, 11:35 AM

Post #49 of 77 (1158 views)
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Re: [Epal63] My Fish Pond construction [In reply to]	Can't Post

Epal
Ya, I will have one pump to suck the water from filter up to feature wall. Why it this under utilised? I need a pump to suck water up, I don think there is other mean to suck water up..so if it is under utilised, what other purpose i can make use of this pump..?

dannysao

Epal63
Koi Lover

Jul 24, 2008, 12:27 PM

Post #50 of 77 (1150 views)
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Re: [dannysao] My Fish Pond construction [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Danny,

If the pump is only pumping water up to the feature wall with that small pipe, there will be excess water pressure. That's why it will be under-utilised.

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