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Home: KOI Talk: Pond Construction & Water Filtering System:
New Pond

 






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kelvinbay
Koi Lover

May 22, 2008, 11:46 AM

Post #1 of 54 (3420 views)
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New Pond Can't Post

After a long while, my newly constructed pond is finally ready for water test.

The actual pond measures 8m x 3m x 1.8m, approx 43 tons while the L-Shaped filter is almost half the actual pond approx 20 tons.

Question 1 - Is the filter size an overkill given that the rule of thumb is 30% of pond size ?

Question 2 - For estimating the optimum number of koi to stock, do i use 43 tons as pond size or 63 tons, total of actual pond plus filter ?

Your advice and assistance wil be much appreciated.


Kelvin

ps. yet to take a picture of the pond, will attached one soon.


(This post was edited by kelvinbay on May 22, 2008, 11:52 AM)


koi@kit
Senior Member


May 22, 2008, 1:50 PM

Post #2 of 54 (3398 views)
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Re: [kelvinbay] New Pond [In reply to] Can't Post

hi kelvin..

Question 1 - Is the filter size an overkill given that the rule of thumb is 30% of pond size ?
for me, its not how big ur filter is but how much filter media is inside for bacteria to grow. no point of having 100% filter size with only 2 row of japanese mattSlyLaugh

Question 2 - For estimating the optimum number of koi to stock, do i use 43 tons as pond size or 63 tons, total of actual pond plus filter ?
shud include the filter volume, i go for 63 ton.Sly

cheers
kit


ouch
Koi Lover

May 23, 2008, 11:32 AM

Post #3 of 54 (3351 views)
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Re: [kelvinbay] New Pond [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Question 1 - Is the filter size an overkill given that the rule of thumb is 30% of pond size ?


There is no such thing as too much filtration.



Quote
Question 2 - For estimating the optimum number of koi to stock, do i use 43 tons as pond size or 63 tons, total of actual pond plus filter ?


I would start out stocking for just the pond and see how things go. If your fish are happy and healthy, your water parameters are perfect, and there is still plenty of room, then slowly add fish if you please.


kelvinbay
Koi Lover

May 23, 2008, 12:19 PM

Post #4 of 54 (3340 views)
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Re: [koi@kit] New Pond [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Kit,

Thanks for your advice and opinion.

I intend to place biomat in the first 4 filter chambers and oyster shelves for the last 2 chambers. I am considering putting Zeolite (recommended by my koi dealer) in the last chambers too.

Anyone has any idea how zeolite works and its effect on the pond ?


Kelvin


kelvinbay
Koi Lover

May 23, 2008, 12:30 PM

Post #5 of 54 (3338 views)
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Re: [ouch] New Pond [In reply to] Can't Post

hi ouch,

Thanks for your advice.

I opted for my current design of a large filter not by choice but to avoid too many corners in the main pond. I hope the large filter can result in better water quality and thus better conditions for my koi to grow.

Would certainly take your advice by adding my koi in batches to ensure i do not over stock them.


Kelvin


koi@kit
Senior Member


May 24, 2008, 10:04 AM

Post #6 of 54 (3281 views)
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Re: [kelvinbay] New Pond [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Kelvin..

i never used zeolite b4. but i heard its quite effective. just make sure u dont put salt into ur pond.. zeolite can absorb ammonia, thus improve waterAngelic, but after sometime the zeolite need to b re-charge, to recharge the zeolite u need salt..

SO make sure theres no salt inside ur water, coz salt will help the zeolite to release the ammonia back into ur pond, making ammonia spike in ur pond water.Pirate

i m sure u r from singaporeWink, soo jacky or max shud b the person to talk to abt zeolite coz i have seen they use them..Wink

kit


accurrent01
Koi Lover

May 24, 2008, 6:31 PM

Post #7 of 54 (3253 views)
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Re: [koi@kit] New Pond [In reply to] Can't Post

Congrat on your new pond and to the many hours perfecting the filter.

Zeolite is good if you want to give a final polished to the water b4 it get to the pond but
it is expensive and you need a lot of it in your filter chamber. Secondly you have periodically
need to flush with salt and dry to recharge it = a troublesome process as zeolite is very abrasive
on the hands

My final pass is thru a long waterbed with water plants.


kelvinbay
Koi Lover

May 24, 2008, 9:25 PM

Post #8 of 54 (3248 views)
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Re: [koi@kit] New Pond [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Kit,

u r right, am from Singapore. Jacky actually help me in designing the pond and filter. He recommended zeolite but since i have never used before, just wanted to get second opinion on its usage.

Thanks again for your assistance and advice.


Kelvin


kelvinbay
Koi Lover

May 24, 2008, 9:36 PM

Post #9 of 54 (3247 views)
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Re: [accurrent01] New Pond [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi accurrent01,

thanks for sharing your knowledge on zeolite, really appreciate it.

I have also heard that by passing the water thru a waterbed of plants helps a lot in reducing the nitrate in the water. From your experience, do you think the water that flow thru the waterbed need to be from the final stage of filter ? Can i pump water direct from the pond to the waterbed instead ? I think it should work cos what the plants were to absorb away the nitrate.

Anyone care to share their experience in this too ?

Kelvin


accurrent01
Koi Lover

May 25, 2008, 1:10 AM

Post #10 of 54 (3239 views)
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Re: [kelvinbay] New Pond [In reply to] Can't Post

I would not recommend that you pump water from the pond to the waterbed (even if you used water from the mid level of your pond).
It may not filtered 100% the water from the pond as fish waste (faeces, urea and uneaten food) may pass thru back to the pond.


kelvinbay
Koi Lover

May 25, 2008, 11:24 PM

Post #11 of 54 (3210 views)
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Re: [accurrent01] New Pond [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi, finally managed to down size the photos to be attached.



This is an overview of the pond and the L-Shaped filter.


kelvinbay
Koi Lover

May 25, 2008, 11:32 PM

Post #12 of 54 (3208 views)
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Re: [koi@kit] New Pond [In reply to] Can't Post



Water from the filter will be pumped back from the last chamber into the pond at the top right corner of the photo; the air-ring will also be situated at that corner.

The two surface skimmers are situated at the bottom left corner of the photo. With this arrangement, it is hoped that water will flow smoothly from one end of the pond to the other end.

Anyone has any comments on the design or advices ?


accurrent01
Koi Lover

May 30, 2008, 12:49 AM

Post #13 of 54 (3073 views)
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Re: [kelvinbay] New Pond [In reply to] Can't Post

Good size pond for breeding jumbo koi.

Assumed your pond designer had worked out the water circulation outlets to the pond
to avoid "dead" water areas which allow waste to accumulate.


SimonChan
New User

Jun 18, 2008, 5:38 AM

Post #14 of 54 (2775 views)
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Re: [accurrent01] New Pond [In reply to] Can't Post

I like your pond.


DavidSoon
Koi Lover


Jun 18, 2008, 9:37 AM

Post #15 of 54 (2765 views)
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Re: [kelvinbay] New Pond [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Kelvin ,

Nice pond . Believe your water run-in period is almost there right?? Smile Can I know if there's drainage from the bottom of the pond to the filteration ??
UV Light installed ??? percentage of shade ?? Number and out-put or flow rate of water pumps?? over flow as well as how your water returns to main-pond from the last chambers , Venturi ?? Oxygnation level ?? Why would you need 2 skimmers ???Retaining Wall , how thick is that ? Why were caps or top of pond not extended into pond area ?? This encourage fish jumping out of pond .Sly

Hope you don't mind me asking so much Question Kelvin , just being curious as personally ,
I sense something missing in your pond.Smile Really hope you dun mind .Smile

Regards
David Soon


kelvinbay
Koi Lover

Jun 19, 2008, 9:52 AM

Post #16 of 54 (2703 views)
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Re: [accurrent01] New Pond [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

the designer of the pond and I did have the water circulation planned out but yet to test it. I have been spending the last 3-4 weeks arresting water leakage problems and has finally got it thashed out, I think.

Will keep u guys updated on the progress of the pond and hopefully can get more tips and advices from you. Thanks.


kelvinbay
Koi Lover

Jun 19, 2008, 9:56 AM

Post #17 of 54 (2701 views)
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Re: [SimonChan] New Pond [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks, Simon , glad you like it.

Starting a new pond is really no easy task, lots of unexpected hiccups along the way. I am enjoying the challenge and looking forward to the day my "darlings" can be back home !

Cheers !


kelvinbay
Koi Lover

Jun 19, 2008, 10:53 AM

Post #18 of 54 (2691 views)
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Re: [DavidSoon] New Pond [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi David,

Thanks for taking time to look at the pond. I am really glad you asked the questions because it was thru these questions that I start to realised there are still a lot of aspects for me to look into before I can "declare" the pond ready. Now, answers to your questions :

a. Run-in period - the pond and filterations were 80-90% filled for the past 3-4 weeks as I was monitoring the extend of leakage and trying to localised it. So, run-in is far from over yet.

b. Bottom Drainage - Two 6 inch pipes run from the centre of the pond to the settelment chamber of the filteration (bottom left corner of the picture).

c. UV Light - Not installed yet, planned to use the floating type. Any good recommendations ?

d. Shade - The pond is exposed to direct sunlight between 1030am-130pm. Thought that was approx 30% of sun, thus opted for clear acrylic for the shelter.

e. Water Circulation - Only one water pump (40 tons per hour) to be located at the top right corner where the last chamber is. Water returns to the main pond only via this pump with a 4 inch outlet. Plan to have another smaller pump at the bottom right corner to pump water to a Bakki Shower; output from Bakki shower will go into a flower bed before going to the settelment chamber. No venturi.

f. Oxygnation level - Never test before & in fact never occur to me to study the oxygantion level in great details other than placing air-ring & air-stones at the corners. Perhaps you shed some lights in this area ?

g. Skimmers - Installed two skimmers to ensure better surface water movement. May attached a DIY protein skimmer to one of them in a latter stage; one of my kaki build & tested, seems to work well.

h. Retaining Wall - The wall between the pond & filter is 4 inch while that of the exterior is approx 5.5 inch.

i. Top of pond - don't quite get what you mean by "Why were caps or top of pond not extended into the pond area" but I do worry about fish jumping out of pond and am scouring around for a good solution.

I am now curious to know what you think is/are missing in my pond and why would I mind, to get frank opinions and good advices from the master himself !


tangigi3
Koi Lover


Jun 19, 2008, 1:50 PM

Post #19 of 54 (2675 views)
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Re: [kelvinbay] New Pond [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice pond! anytime you have a dead spot, just put an airstone in that area. Thank should churn it up.

I would have preferred the other surface skimmer on the opposite side, but yours would work just as well.

cheers


DavidSoon
Koi Lover


Jun 20, 2008, 4:51 PM

Post #20 of 54 (2585 views)
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Re: [kelvinbay] New Pond [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Kelvin ,

Apologies if some of my questions were not so clear ..Smile I will try to take some photos for your references and probably it will help you better with your new pond . I'm curently in Taipei at the moment , but will definitely takes some photos to share more in details when I come back to Singapore next week .SlySlySly Hope you can be another Jumbo Keeper .

a ) It seems you are experiencing some leakage problem . 2 ways to test if it's evaporation or leakage .

solution : If the water pumps is/are off , the water that evaporate is actually hardly noticeable in a half a day , but if you on back the pump/s , pls wait for about 10 minutes ( water height in main pond will be higher than water height in filter chamber after few minutes ) after this level settle in , put a mark on the water level in the main pond and come back to that mark after a few hours . If you have intention to drain out the run-in water , better still , you can pour in some coloring , probably blue liquid to assess if the pond is really leaking . Leak can be caused by punctual to the water proofing , normally damage even with a small pin hole caused by nail or drilling while installing pipeings .

Water can find it's way thru the weakest link in the whole structure , not neccessary where you find the water spots . The punctual can be at one corner and the leak can be discovered over another end . Leak can extend very fast if it's not repaired .

b ) what's already constructed for drainage can be hacked and re-do again . Let's hope these 2 botom drainage is adequate enough to keep the botom clean .

c ) UV lights some comes in chamber or they call UV Steriliser . Some would use the Floating type which can be place in the last filter chamber . It's essential for new pond . Algae problem in our tropical country can be a big nuisance or unsightly , but it's impossible to remove algae totally . It's also good to be able to maintain thin layer of algae for your fishes too . UV light helps to keep them in control but not kill them totally . It's good enough .

d ) Clear Acrylic not recomended for shade Kelvin . It's short wave that's more harmful ( even for humans ) than direct sunlight which we know it as long wave . It's always shorter under hot wave than the direct sunlight . Your water temperature under this shade is even hotter than an open pond . Try double netting or aluminium awnings . It's more lasting and practical .

e ) One pump a pond can be as good as putting all your eggs in 1 basket . Can be dangerous if this one pump break down and it will probably take you a few hours to have it replaced . Pumps dun last as long as most advertised Kelvin . Having 3 of the 13,000 litre pumps is definitely beter than having 1 40,000 litres pump .

f ) Wih a bakki shower in mind , this will greatly increase the oxygnation level in your pond and so far , Momotaro bacteria housing highly recommended for the bakki shower , but would be best if you could keep the bakki shower away from direct sunlight . Venturi simulate current or can create current or flow , much needed , even fishes need this to " exercise " . It's had for your fish to really grow with strong body if we can't provide enough swimming space or " curent " to simulate streams . Would rater you go for the 1 meter length straight air stone ( at one end of the pond - away from bottom drainage ) than the circular air stone.


g ) Try with the 2 skimmers if you want to , but if the water flow is too slow and not sucking in as much surface water as you want , you can try neutralise one and you will be able to see better skimming . If you can find aircon -insolation cover ( normally black sponge like where we use to cover up the aircon copper pipes ) , use it to wrap around the lib of the skimmer . This will reduce lots of injuries when fishes accidentally hit against the edge of the skimmer , ewhich can even result in lib damage sometimes .

h ) Brick wall or contrete wall ?? if it's brick wall it looks dangerous . Professional Engineer certified structure specs as safe ?? Water can break dam ...SlySly Just being concern about safety ...

i ) Parameter Cap , normally runs around the whole parameter of the main pond . It protrudes about 4 or 5 inches over the main pond area . I will try to take photo of this to enable you to visualise better in detail when I get back to Singapore . With the paramter cap , it will help prevent fishes jumping out of your pond .SlySly

*****The above are just some recommendation or suggestions made without prejudice . I sincerely apologies if the above recommendations to Kelvin seems inapproporite . ******

Just for sharing ... hope we can learn from one another . Always hoping we have more informations about ponds that can nuture future jumbos .

Regards
David Soon


kelvinbay
Koi Lover

Jun 21, 2008, 9:49 AM

Post #21 of 54 (2532 views)
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Re: [DavidSoon] New Pond [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi David,

really apprreciate you taking time off, even while overseas, to assist and provide advices on the pond. Your insights has certainly uncovered numerous areas of defeciency which I am not aware of. I am looking at these areas and will look for ways to change/improve them, in particularly the acrylic shade, multi pumps, bakki shower, venturi, and skimmer lip protection.

Still have several questions pertaining evaporation/leakage, venturi and sunlight/shades but thought perhaps it's better to pose to you after you are back. Enjoy and have a fruitful trip at Taipei !


Regards,
Kelvin


cheangv
Koi Lover

Jun 22, 2008, 2:11 AM

Post #22 of 54 (2488 views)
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Re: [DavidSoon] New Pond [In reply to] Can't Post

Been reading all the interesting exchanges and being a newbie myself, have certainly learnt a lot. This will all come in useful when I get a chance to build my dream pond. Cool


Just wondering if you could help to clarify these comments you made

'Algae problem in our tropical country can be a big nuisance or unsightly , but it's impossible to remove algae totally . It's also good to be able to maintain thin layer of algae for your fishes too .'
Other than for aesthetics reasons and unless the algae growth gets out of hand, I thought it was good to have algae as that is another source to control the nitrates/nitrites in the water and it also acts as a supplementary food source for the koi

'Momotaro bacteria housing highly recommended for the bakki shower , but would be best if you could keep the bakki shower away from direct sunlight '
I guess this is also to control algae growth on the bakki shower but again my thoughts are that they would help in the overall water management

'simulate current or can create current or flow , much needed , even fishes need this to " exercise " .'
Is there such thing as too much current?

Thks for all the sharing


kelvinbay
Koi Lover

Jun 23, 2008, 3:06 PM

Post #23 of 54 (2378 views)
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Re: [cheangv] New Pond [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi, understand where you are coming from on the issue of curent strength. It has also been brought to my attention that venturi may be good for the growth of young koi but may be detrimental to larger koi ; their body may "bent" swimming against constant current. I wonder if it's due to inappropriate current speed/strength.


DavidSoon
Koi Lover


Jun 24, 2008, 5:39 PM

Post #24 of 54 (2305 views)
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Re: [cheangv] New Pond [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Kelvin and Cheangv ,

Glad to be back to verify certain highlighted points , on "Current " and Bakki Shower and Algae issues .

1) Algae issues - on nitrites / nitrates and ammonia issues , most have been spoken over the forum for a long time already, which I believe much had been explained on new ponds algae problems and remedies when such issues surfaced . Believe Kelvin had been reading the past threads on Algae issues to understand that Algaes , once we loss control of it , could simply end up being a big headache . Poor visibility , fighting with fishes over oxygen during the day ...etc .. etc .. which I strongly recommend that you guys read up those past threads to reduce the inevitable . SlySly On the other hand , Green Healthy Algaes are certainly the best food for Kois . If you can cultivate enough of these Good algaes , you don't even need color food for your Kois . Some believe Koi would self-medicate themselves by eating algaes as well , or simply to feed their appetite when they're under-fed . There's always some truths to these saying as well .SlySly Read more threads on these discussion , it's always interesting to know and understand the pros and cons of algae.WinkWink

2 ) Bakki Shower - similar function as a trickle tower , but with the Momotaro Housing , it increased the bacteria built-up double quick time , and I can assure you , the oxygenation level in your water increase tremendously against other rocks or bio-balls used , but the price of Momotaro Housing is very very expensive .Tongue The price can turn you off !!!LaughLaugh It's almost Sin$35 per Kilo and recommended usage for pond Kelvin's size would need about 120 Kilos .PiratePiratePirate More infos on installation and usage of this Bakki Shower and Trickle Tower can be found in some of the threads discussion here as well . SlySly

3 ) " Current " ... my apologies ..SlySly , shouldn't have used this term " current " .. It's probably meant for sharks and dolphins . We simply stick with the term " Flow " . I managed to take the photos of the water-outlets to elaborate the water flow meant to be created in the pond to simulate "Stream effect " .

On questions to the degree or speed of this water flow , it's again subjective . That's where Koi Keeping fun comes in . You can never say what's right or what's wrong , what's too much or too little , as what we adjust periodically , we have to observe the behaviours or respond of our fishes everytime we adjust the water pipings or the angle of water outlets . Please bear in mind that the flow of what I had , was out of a 13,000 litres pump and adjusted at an angle that only allows the flow to hit slightly half way across the length of the pond . It will take a while to play with this , sometimes days or even weeks to feel right with the fishes . Always observe the fish responds after you adjust or change anything in your pond ....Sly

4 ) on "Fish Bending issues" , I noticed that this has not been much discussed in this forum . Trust me Kelvin , what you have is a straight pond , not a garden pond or a landscaping pond . Why would a big koi starts going bended when they starts to grow longer or bigger ??
Medications or excessive water-treatment have always been the excuse most would provide . There's some truth to it of course , but how much truth , I do not really know . Some fish bending occurs when the kois starts having eggs as well . Most experience this when the Kois are unable to release the eggs and crystalisation takes place some time when the undispel eggs stays in the body too long . The fish will look bended as well .

Directions of "Current" or Flow of water , is a much bigger culprit than medication side-effects that can cause a fish to bend . You have the ultimate pond like I say , to nuture jumbos ... bcos you have a straight pond ...... but if you allows the water to circulate in a clockwise or anti-clockwise flow direction , you will see fishes growing with bended bodies, some will bend left while some will bend right as the circulation of the water flow will ends up strongest at the middle of the pond at the bottom in a circular motion . You can see these from the sight of Shit going round and round at the bottom spot sometime . When fishes needs to stop to rest at the corners of these ponds at the bottom ( Weakest point of the pond ) , they would simply go against the flow of the water and bends itself against one corner of your pond . In the long run , these jumbos are not going to grow straight or grow with straight bodies .
I had this experience from one of my older pond , but rectified it in time to save a few from seriously going out of shape . It took them almost 6 months in a straight pond with straight flow to recover from growing with a bending body .

You need to keep your flow straight from one end of your pond to the other end Kelvin , that's why somebody in the forum also did mention about having the over-flow outlet and Skimmer installed over the other end corner of the pond , opposite the water-outlets . I can assure you , by having the straight water flow , parallel to the length of your pond , you will experience lesser fish bending when they grow . SlySly

More importantly Kelvin , always watch your water outlets . Do not allow the water outlets to churn up the water , as these would very much disturb the shits from going into the skimmers or bottom drainage pipes , as it would corrupt the water easily .

Above just for discussion Kelvin ..SlySly Hope this little infos help . Never meant to over-ride anybody's ideas on Koi Keeping or pond constructions . I do apologies if the above is out of discussion or offensive to some . My apologies .

Regards
David
Attachments: outlet 2.JPG (58.6 KB)
  straight pond.jpg (18.0 KB)


koinutx
Koi Lover


Jun 25, 2008, 10:41 AM

Post #25 of 54 (2265 views)
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Re: [kelvinbay] New Pond [In reply to] Can't Post

Kelvin,

Just to share a mistake that I made to my pond.

I built a glass shelter over the whole pond with UV Shield Screen. This is bec my pond is directly under the sun for about 5-6hrs a day.
This is effective in preventing Green Water or too much algae that i did not even have any UV light installed.
However, the also shield the necessary Sunray that my Yamabuki is pale yellow.
Unsure

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