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Abangk
Koi Lover

May 4, 2007, 11:31 AM

Post #1 of 145 (9651 views)
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Shallow Pond	Can't Post

Dear Sifus.. I am in the progress of constructing a pond along my balcony, however I could not build it so deep as for safety reason. The size is 30' x 5' x 2' deep. The filtration section is yet to be built and I am gaining a lot from this forum on how to build the best filtering system for this pond. After browsing thru this forum, I realised that my pond is too shallow for Koi Unsure

. However this forum has "racun" me very much and I am already fall in love with Koi. Appreciate your advise and comments if I want to make it as a Koi ponds and what may happen to my Koi.

Best regards
Abangk

Best regards
Abangk

(This post was edited by Abangk on May 4, 2007, 11:39 AM)

Attachments:

Mypond1.jpg (86.0 KB)

thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

May 4, 2007, 12:06 PM

Post #2 of 145 (9631 views)
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Re: [Abangk] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Abangk,

Welcome to the Forum.

2'0" deep for the pond is really far too shallow, in my opinion. You may want to consider topping
up another feet to the pond wall and installing some railing on it for safety reason.
Looking at the photo posted, it seems like you did not provide for the bottom drains, am I correct?
If at all possible, try to include the bottom drains into your filtration system now inorder to save you
future problems with the maintenance of the pond and good water conditions.
An 'L' shape pond will create problems when water circulation within the pond are not designed probably.
Normally, water circulation will circulate more efficiently in a rectangular shape pond. I think your proposed
area for the filtration chambers are far too small. Normally, the rule of thumb for filtration chambers
requirements is 30% of the main pond water surface area for the filtration chamber system. I hope that
you may consider placing the filtration chambers at the far/shorter end of the 'L' shape so that the main
pond is rectangular in shape and the filtration chambers will occupy a bigger area. I think that will work out
better in term of the pond / filtration system ratio.
Just my 2 cents worth.

Best Regards,
Thiam Hwa

(This post was edited by thiamhwa on May 4, 2007, 1:03 PM)

Abangk
Koi Lover

May 4, 2007, 1:20 PM

Post #3 of 145 (9617 views)
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Re: [thiamhwa] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Thiamhwa,

Thanks for your quick response.. in the first place I never had any idea of Koi, that is the reason why this pond was planned as such. I realised about the bottom drain when I accidentally found this forum, but the floor was heavily concrete and no chance to hack it for the 4" bottom piping. Due to that I only have a chance to design as such the water will flow one way by channeling the pump hose from the filter right to the end and out thru the waterfall and 4 floor base outlets pushing the water back to the filter and pump (only one way flow). Will that help?.. The end corner is not really "L" shape but triangle cut.

Your proposal to raise it up to another 1' was really a great idea but it will block my lovely view, however I will re-consider this very seriously.

My proposal on filtration chamber is around 2' x 5' x 2' deep with 3 compartments, perhaps I will make the Bio-ring chamber a bit bigger, is it still too small?

I have to make a quick decision as the construction is in progress but, if let say I cannot do much what may happen to my Koi..

Best regards
Abangk

(This post was edited by Abangk on May 4, 2007, 2:04 PM)

thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

May 4, 2007, 2:56 PM

Post #4 of 145 (9605 views)
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Re: [Abangk] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Abangk,

I am not sure what advises that one could give since the pond floor are already concreted.
Since you have already proposed for a one way water direction flow from the waterfall to where
the proposed filtration chambers are located, you may want to consider the following:-
1) Provide a gentle slope to the concrete floor from the waterfall area sloping toward the filtration
chambers direction to enable the debris to move easier.

2) I think you will required more than the 4 nos. of returning water outlets to circulate the water.
I think you will have to add 4nos. piping ( i.e. 2nos. on each side along the 30' length of the pond )
to help with the water flow. Also make sure that these additional outlets are place at an angle in the
water flow direction. These returning pipings will require an additional pump to circulate the water.

3) Your current proposed 5' x 2' - 3nos. filtration chambers is not adequate. You should at least have
the min. 5' x 6' i.e. 9 nos. filtration chambers. Ideally, all these chambers should also have bottom drains
individually connected to the Dry Chamber so that daily pond maintenance for eg. back flushing of the
fish waste products can be carry out inorder to maintain good water and healthy koi. If you do not
have the bottom drains in placed, you will only spend most of the time trying to syphoning out the waste
products manually rather than enjoying the koi hobby.

If I were you, I would do the following min. changes to the design:-

1) Raise the pond wall by at least 6 inches more.
2) Hack off the concrete floor in the main pond area nearer the filter chambers and have the bottom drains
discharge located there. Mininum hacking just for the pipings works from the BD main pond to the
Settlement chamber. Probably 2 to 3 feets of hacking only for the pipes.
3) Filtration chambers area - If the pond wall is raised up by another 6 inches, you can lay the individual
bottom drains from the filter chambers to the Dry Chamber on the existing concrete floor. Once the pipings
are install, just top it up with another layer of concrete.

I hope that I am not confusing you with the changes.

Regards,
Thiam Hwa

thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

May 4, 2007, 4:10 PM

Post #5 of 145 (9596 views)
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Re: [Abangk] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Abangk,

I have attached a sketch drawing here for your information. Hope that this will help you to better understand what I have been trying to explain earlier. If you are thinking of having a Bakki Shower or Trickle Tower over your waterfall
feature, I think that is certainly possible and it will improve your water quality as well. Goodluck.

(This post was edited by thiamhwa on May 4, 2007, 4:36 PM)

Abangk
Koi Lover

May 4, 2007, 5:10 PM

Post #6 of 145 (9577 views)
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Re: [thiamhwa] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thank you very much bro..

Great layout..
2) I think you will required more than the 4 nos. of returning water outlets ...
** This one can be done...

1) Raise the pond wall by at least 6 inches more.
** Will consider this seriously...

2) Hack off the concrete floor in the main pond area nearer the filter chambers and have the bottom drains
discharge located there....
** Will try to hack as per your drawing...

3) Filtration chambers area ....
** Wow really need that many... it takes so much space.. let see how?
1. Do I need extra pump to discharge the water to the drain?.
2. Is 2" diameter tube sufficient for the bottom drain as it is just a short distance.

I should have seen this forum before the construction..
Thank you once again for the recomendation.

Best regards
Abangk

(This post was edited by Abangk on May 4, 2007, 5:37 PM)

drcheang
Koi Lover

May 4, 2007, 6:31 PM

Post #7 of 145 (9564 views)
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Re: [Abangk] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Abangk,
Read more about filtration in this forum. U really need big filter. However read about Trickle Tower or Baki Shower( TT or BS) in this forum. Do a tread search on TT or BS u will find a lot in this forum. They even teach how to DIY. With TT or BS u will save on space as it is out of the pond and much more efficient. I live in a link house and have a pond. Thus need to save space and build my owm TT.
Cheang

thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

May 4, 2007, 9:54 PM

Post #8 of 145 (9544 views)
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Re: [Abangk] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Abangk,

DrCheang is correct to stress that you really need a big filter if you want to have a problem free hobby
in future. Actually, what I have suggested i.e. 5' x 6' is not even sufficient. To comply with the 30%
rule of thumb requirements, you will need at least a filtration system size of 5' x 10' in length.
The min. size piping from the filtration compartments to the Dry Chamber should be 3 inches whereas the
Bottom Drains to the Settlement Chamber should be 4 inches min. If not, over the years, these pipings
will easily get clog up.

With regard to the water discharge out to the nearer public drain, you may want to take a look at a
typical up and down filtration system sectional drawing which I have posted under " New koi pond starter "
by Karrunan on the 2nd. page in this Pond Construction section. If you have a pond which is raised above
the existing Ground Level by say 2'0", you can then have the floor of the Dry Chamber raised up as well as
shown in the drawing. By doing so, any water back-flushed out from the main pond or filtration chambers will
naturally flow out into the public drain by gravity.

On the other hand, if the Dry Chamber is build below the existing Ground Level, you will then require an
additional automatic submersible cut-off pump placed into the Dry Chamber to get rid of the waste products.
Please take note that the submersible pump will not completely drain out all the water in the Dry Chamber.
There will normally be 2 to 3 inches of water left in there.

You may also want to consider providing concealed pipings for the following items:-

1) Concealed Overflow pipes in the main pond discharge out to the public drain.
2) Concealed Surface skimmer to strain out any floating debris
3) Concealed pipings for air supply to the main pond and filtration chambers.
4) Concealed electrical ductings for Air blowers, Water pumps, Back-up Battery and additional water proof sockets
if required.

Do also take a look in the Koi Club Section regarding Dr. Zhang's koi pond visit. In there, you will notice that
Dr.Zhang has cleverly housed his Bakki Shower into a display unit. You may want to consider dressing up
your waterfall and Bakki Shower together in that manner. Anyway, just a thought.

Best Regards,
Thiam Hwa

ayranjim
Koi Lover

May 4, 2007, 10:00 PM

Post #9 of 145 (9541 views)
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Re: [Abangk] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hello, well it is too shalow for koi! I would simply raise the row of bricks that go around the pond! One thing I am seeing in the photo is, that the person doing the cement and brick work does not seem to have much experiance! This is very important!!! Looking at the photo, I see that this person has not filled the joints well! ( the space between the bricks) nor do they seem to be leveled nor spaced evenly! So this would make me question, How is this person mixing the cement?? Since he does not seem to understand correct building standards, I would say you may have LEAKS in the future, but apart from that , What quality will you end up with??? The reason I am so critical is because there are so many people that cheat others when it comes to pond construction! The basics in pond construction, are the construction! so be demanding!!! Ask for perfection!!!!

ace
Koi Lover

May 4, 2007, 10:14 PM

Post #10 of 145 (9539 views)
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Re: [Abangk] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

hi,
Im truly sorry for stealing the thread and going off topic. May i know what would be the consequences of having a shallow pond ie in this case 2 feet less...excuse my ignorance for asking

thanks

thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

May 4, 2007, 10:23 PM

Post #11 of 145 (9538 views)
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Re: [ayranjim] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Ayranjim,

Like yourself, I have the same concerned when looking at the pond walls construction.
If Abangk has not started his pond construction, I would advise him to adopt the Ready Mixed
Concrete for the pond construction. It is better to be safe than sorry in my opinion.
Anyway, I wish him 'Goodluck' and hopefully no leakage problem.

Best Regards,
Thiam Hwa

drcheang
Koi Lover

May 4, 2007, 10:26 PM

Post #12 of 145 (9537 views)
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Re: [ace] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Ace,
No harm asking. We are all here to learn and share. I learn most of my koi knowledge from here too. In water less then 2 feet deep koi wont grow. They can grow up to 3 feet and if water only 2 feet the thay have difficulty in feeding. Also 2 feet water will get very hot during noon. Usually during this time koi will hide in the deeper part of the pond where is cooler.
Just my 2 cents of tought
Cheang

ace
Koi Lover

May 4, 2007, 10:34 PM

Post #13 of 145 (9536 views)
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Re: [drcheang] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Hi,
Thanks for the quick reply. So i can safely say it only affects growth and not health?

thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

May 4, 2007, 10:38 PM

Post #14 of 145 (9535 views)
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Re: [ace] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Ace,

Most of the koi will end up having pot-bellied becos' they do not have the opportunity of
a deep pond to exercise. If you are a local & residing in KL, do drop by the Antarabangsa
building indoor foyer area along Jalan Sultan Ismail to see for yourself the results of those koi
raised in a shallow pond. I wouldn't want my koi ending up like those.

Regards,
Thiam Hwa

(This post was edited by thiamhwa on May 4, 2007, 10:41 PM)

Abangk
Koi Lover

May 7, 2007, 12:39 PM

Post #15 of 145 (9451 views)
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Re: [thiamhwa] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi all,

Thank you again for your great advises and sorry for the late reply due to my home pc problem.

I will consider of making another pond as there are still some spaces around my house (easily 50' x 50') and that will be a real koi pond for keeping me busy and plan for retirement (8 more years to go.. he..he..). I have the ambition of making a small koi pond's garden in that area.

As for the existing shallow pond it is actually more for decoration as it is right in front of my house and the focus is for the relaxation (you may say Feng-sui). I really have not much option to make it a proper koi pond at this time.

About the construction:
Actually on the outer side of the brick walls it was about 6" concrete layer to seal the gaps. It also to be covered/painted with a few layers of waterproof liquid on the whole inner side of the pond before the final layer of black tiles. I hope this processes are sufficient for avoiding any leakage.

I am very sorry that I have to minimise the size of this pond filteration chamber as to maximise the length of the pond, I will add in the Bio media in the waterfall box for additional filtration. I only hope that this minimal filtration will make the water crystal clear and the maintenance for cleaning the debris will have to be done in a harder way.

The external TT as per Dr Cheang sample is a good option for me:

Please forgive me for the above decision after providing me such a good advises and detail drawings but I will dissapointing you no more on my next project.

Best regards
Abangk

(This post was edited by Abangk on May 7, 2007, 1:09 PM)

thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

May 7, 2007, 3:39 PM

Post #16 of 145 (9432 views)
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Re: [Abangk] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Abangk,

No problem. Just do what you can to improve on the current pond system. If you
have the Bakki Shower and plenty of oxygen added into the pond, that will also help.
Just remember not to over crowd your pond with too many koi and I think you should do okey.
Anyway, please keep us updated on the progress of the works and your future koi collection.

Best Regards,
Thiam Hwa

Abangk
Koi Lover

May 7, 2007, 6:10 PM

Post #17 of 145 (9420 views)
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Re: [thiamhwa] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yes... for sure bro...
Im very happy to update the progress of my shallow pond here to gain further advises and learn as much as I could from this small scale koi pond for my future project..

Best regards
Abangk

Abangk
Koi Lover

May 11, 2007, 9:55 AM

Post #18 of 145 (9331 views)
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Re: [thiamhwa] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

My shallow pond progress update..

I was recommended by the hardware shop to use this black tar jell for the grout. There is another one like milk water they call it "susu" and this one need to be mixed with a special powder and bland together with the cement for plastering, however its contained toxic. I hope I am using the correct grout. Next is the tiling works.

Best regards
Abangk

etano
Koi Lover

May 11, 2007, 2:07 PM

Post #19 of 145 (9314 views)
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Re: [Abangk] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Abangk, can you tell me what exactly is the tar gell? Any brand name, etc. I am trying to find the same material for my pond although I am also considering epoxy coat. Thanks.

Abangk
Koi Lover

May 11, 2007, 3:37 PM

Post #20 of 145 (9302 views)
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Re: [etano] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Aha... that is the problem.. no name!!. Unsure

Perhaps you can try to ask any construction hardware shops (not the small shop lot hardware shop). As long as it looks like soft margarine and black in colour, it should be the same grout. They used to apply for the up stairs bath room before the tiling.

Best regards
Abangk

thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

May 12, 2007, 12:26 AM

Post #21 of 145 (9288 views)
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Re: [etano] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi etano,

You may want to check this out first i.e. http://www.belle.com.my Click on their Products range.
You may also want to call them up to enquire which is the recomended safe waterproofing product
applicable for koi pond usage.

Hi Abangk,

I would advise you to select Black based grout for the filling joints for the black colour ceramic tiles so
that you will get the overall effect of a completely black background for your pond.

Best Regards,
Thiam Hwa

(This post was edited by thiamhwa on May 12, 2007, 12:28 AM)

Abangk
Koi Lover

May 12, 2007, 12:49 AM

Post #22 of 145 (9283 views)
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Re: [thiamhwa] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yah.. I have selected the black grout as per the picture above.

etano,
once applied it needs at least 3 hot days to get properly dried. The price is RM70 per can (is a big squre can, is it a 5 gallons can?)

Best regards
Abangk

thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

May 12, 2007, 8:55 AM

Post #23 of 145 (9273 views)
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Re: [Abangk] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Abangk,

I think you will probably have to apply the black Bituminous mineral coating 2 or 3 times over the internal
surface of your pond. Once that is done, you must do a ' Water Test ' i.e. filling the pond with water
up to the top edge of the pond and leaving it for a few days to detemine the amount of water loss daily
due to evaporation into the air and hopefully also no leakage problem. Once you have determine that there
are no leakage, you may then proceed with laying the ceramic tiles. The problem here is trying to drain out
all the water in the pond for tiling purposes when you do not have bottom drain. Goodluck.

Best Regards,
Thiam Hwa

(This post was edited by thiamhwa on May 12, 2007, 8:59 AM)

etano
Koi Lover

May 12, 2007, 7:36 PM

Post #24 of 145 (9233 views)
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Re: [thiamhwa] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thiam Hwa,

Thanks for the link, I will surely call them up. My reqular hardware store recommended me to use Dribond (http://sll.com.my/dribond.htm) but I am not sure it's koi-safe. But I do see a lot of people including koi dealers using the black stuff used by Abangk. I am still in the middle of building my pod (laying bricks) and I think I will add Pye Waterpruf (might be what abangk referred to as susu) to the plastering mix later for the first layer waterproofing. I am looking for the second layer (maybe third) for extra protection because I doing the pond myself.

Thanks.

thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

May 12, 2007, 11:13 PM

Post #25 of 145 (9224 views)
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Re: [etano] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi etano,

The black stuff used by Abangk is a Bituminous mineral product normally used by contractors for
bathrooms waterproofing as it is cheap and widely available in most hardware shops. If possible,
I would advise you to select a more reliable waterproofing product.
It is a good idea to use Pye Waterproof cement for your floor and wall cement rendering as an
additional precaution. Do remember to thicken and round up all the corners ( especially where the
meeting joints between the concrete floor and vertical brickwalls ) with additional waterproofing grout
because these are the most likely leakage problem areas. Hopefully the ground settlement over a
period of time due to the pond weight will not cause hairline cracks to these weak joints.

Best Regards,
Thiam Hwa

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