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thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

Oct 10, 2007, 4:05 PM

Post #76 of 133 (3758 views)
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Re: [Epal63] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Francis,

I am only familiar with the conventional down and up filtration which are widely used by many local
koi hobbyists here. There are in fact many other diffrent koi pond filtration systems which work just as well.
Maybe you should spend some time learning and understanding the advantages and dis-advantages for
each individual system before commencing on the project.

If you could, please post a site picture showing the pond location. With the understanding of the surrounding
environment, it will be more meaningful when commenting on the proposed design. If at all possible, try to
have a deeper pond. Maybe you could re-direct the main drainage discharge to run by the side of the koi pond.
Just a thought! BTW, where are you from?

Best Regards,
Thiam Hwa

(This post was edited by thiamhwa on Oct 10, 2007, 4:33 PM)

larz1
Koi Kichi

Oct 10, 2007, 9:13 PM

Post #77 of 133 (3745 views)
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Re: [Epal63] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Could you put up a picture of the area you plan to build in including the route of the drainage line? There may be a way to improve your depth somewhat which will be much better for your fish.

Epal63
Koi Lover

Oct 11, 2007, 5:46 PM

Post #78 of 133 (3710 views)
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Re: [thiamhwa] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hello Thiam,

I am from Shah Alam. I am interested to build the conventional down and up filtration. At the moment, I only have a very rough idea how the pond looks like, as I am still trying to understand the filtersystem and how to do the drainage/piping.

I have attached a photo of the garden, showing from the front to the backyard. The filter system will be at the end, just before the tall tree, around the big-leaf plant. The main hole is just behind the tall tree. The underground drainage is right at the centre.

The left hand side, will be built with a concrete fence, roughly 1' width. The water fall will be on at the right handside, facing the 2 pillars - entering the side door of the house.

The depth of the pond will be the height of the pillar (1.5'). There is also a drain, at the left hand side. The left handside will be converted to a walkpath. The left hand side, including the drain is 4' width.

I will try to upload a rough drawing of the proposed pool.

Thanks.
Francis

Epal63
Koi Lover

Oct 11, 2007, 5:50 PM

Post #79 of 133 (3709 views)
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Re: [larz1] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi larz1,

I tried to post a picture but it didn't come out in the previous post. Frown

Hope the drawing in this post comes out.

Francis

(This post was edited by Epal63 on Oct 11, 2007, 6:01 PM)

larz1
Koi Kichi

Oct 11, 2007, 9:16 PM

Post #80 of 133 (3698 views)
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Re: [Epal63] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Picture posting can be difficult until you've done it a time or two. Here is a link to help you out with it.

http://www.koi.com.my/cgi-bin/koiforum/gforum.cgi?post=62336;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Epal63
Koi Lover

Oct 11, 2007, 10:42 PM

Post #81 of 133 (3711 views)
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Re: [Epal63] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Repost the photo here:

Repost the rough diagram of the proposed pond.

thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

Oct 12, 2007, 10:00 AM

Post #82 of 133 (3693 views)
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Re: [Epal63] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Francis,

Thank you for posting the photo and the sketch drawing. I see the site which you have chosen to build
your koi pond is in our standard 10'0" building set back requirements zone. The underground pipings which connect
from one manhole to another manhole contain sewerage pipings work discharge from the toilets. Normally, these
pipings are constructed about 1'0" to 2'0" in depth.

If you still insist on the 1.5ft depth for the pond, may I know whether you are going to build a new roof over for
the new pond? If not, I think the shallow depth of the water will heat up very quickly in our hot tropical climate
and this will not do any good to the koi.

If I were you, I would re-divert the existing sewerage piping run from the first manhole to run along the side of
the 3'0" apron concrete walkway by introducing 2 nos. new manholes. With that re-located, this will completely
leave the 7'0" width garden space free for a deeper koi pond. Secondly, if you do not relocate the piping run,
I think the additional weight of the concrete pond and water capacity may cause soil movement and eventually
earth settlement. This may damage the existing sewerage piping in future.

Am I right to assume that you probably either have a internal Lounge or Dining area by the side of the pond
over looking towards the water feature wall? Ideally, you should have the pond build up right against the house
so that you could really spend time enjoying this hobby in comfort viewing the koi from your own air-con.
Lounge/Dining area. That would be my ideal design if I have a choice.

Abangk, sorry for jumping into your thread and Wishing You and Your Family " SELAMAT HARI RAYA AIDILFITRI "

Best Regards,
Thiam Hwa

(This post was edited by thiamhwa on Oct 12, 2007, 10:50 AM)

Epal63
Koi Lover

Oct 12, 2007, 11:03 AM

Post #83 of 133 (3674 views)
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Re: [thiamhwa] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Thiam,

My front house is facing south. So, the pond location only has minimal morning sun. As a result, grass doesn't grow well in that area.

The proposed pond will have about 5'x5' of raised wood-floor cover at the front of the pond. (from the sketch drawing, it is at the right end of the pond). The idea is to have a malaysian version of 'sun-tanning' on top of the pond, Sly

while kois are swimming underneath! So, it will also serves as a "cooling" area for the koi. The roofing from the house-side entrance will be extended also but it may not cover the entire pond width.

The current plan is not to relocate the sewerage pipings as that would be a major re-work which I try to avoid. So, the 1.5' depth would have to stay. The existing sidewalk will be raised-up to the same level as the pond (1.5') giving the impresssion that the pond is at ground level. This means the existing drain will be "covered".

Your valuable input is greatly appreciated.

Thanks.
Francis

thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

Oct 12, 2007, 11:42 AM

Post #84 of 133 (3667 views)
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Re: [Epal63] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Francis,

Even though the house is facing South, you will still get a couple hours or direct sunlight from the
afternoon sun. I think your proposal to have a 5.5 ft high sun-deck over one end of the pond will helps
to cut out some of the heat.

BTW, if you already have plan to raised the sidewalk floor, then re-diverting the sewerage pipe between
the 2 existing manholes is certainly not a major re-work at all, IMHO. If not, you may want to consider
extending the width of your koi pond by another 3'0" to the side of the building perimeter. The reasons
being that when the koi grow in length (exceeding 60cm and above), the koi will require a bigger turning
circle radius when swimming. I am afraid the current 5'0" width as suggested by yourself is probably not
wide enough. You may encounter koi hurting themselves by hitting on the side wall when they are nervous
and panic and dashing all over the pond sometime.

Best Regards,
Thiam Hwa

Epal63
Koi Lover

Oct 12, 2007, 12:53 PM

Post #85 of 133 (3655 views)
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Re: [thiamhwa] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Thiam,

Thanks for your valuable feedback. I will consider extending the width of the pond by another 3'.

Could you please suggest how I should run the piping for the filter and water flow back to the pond?

So far, most of the filter diagrams I have seen, for up and down system, do not show details of how the pumps and the piping details to and from the pond. Can you please point me to any link that I can see this type of details?

Abangk, would you be able to share your pond's technical drawing on this?

Thanks.
Best Regards,
Francis

thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

Oct 13, 2007, 12:03 AM

Post #86 of 133 (3620 views)
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Re: [Epal63] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Francis,

I have attached herewith a sketch plan drawing showing the pond filtration layout. This is for the proposal whereby
the existing sewerage pipings are re-diverted to the walkway area. As you may notice, the work only involve an
additional of 2 nos. Manholes to cater for the pipe divertion. With the pipes relocated to the side of your house,
the garden area is now completely free to accomodate a deeper pond. I am not sure whether you could view the
drawing clearly. If you have problem with it, please PM me your fax. no. and I will arrange for it to be fax over to you.

I have not drawn the Sectional drawing through the pond yet. Nonetheless, you could take a look in the Philippines
Regional column forum under Mikoi's posting entitled ' 4th. time around '. In that thread, there is a Sectional Drawing
drawn by me quite sometime ago which is posted in page 3 pertaining to the typical Down and Up filtration system.
For your information, the current 5'0" x 5'0" for your filtration compartments is not sufficient. You should allow for at
least the size of 8'0" x 5'0".

Best Regards,
Thiam Hwa

sunshinekoi
Member

Oct 14, 2007, 9:58 PM

Post #87 of 133 (3542 views)
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Re: [Epal63] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Francis,
Thiam Hwa put up a good proposal to you....he is indeed a real good koi kichi + architect!! Smile

Dont forget to check whether the foundation of the house is in the way of where you want to extend your pond is.
The other consideration is what kind of fluid is normally passing along via that drain. If there is water from Laundry discharge to that drain, you may need to put some water proofing or isolation material on the drain when re-pipe the sewage line takes place. This is to avoid any contamination to the pond. The drain and the pond is very close from what I can see on the picture.

Just a thought.

Sunshine

thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

Oct 14, 2007, 11:10 PM

Post #88 of 133 (3537 views)
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Re: [sunshinekoi] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Sunshinekoi,

A good valid point indeed regarding water contamination from the drain. In Malaysia, all the water discharge
from the washing machine, wet area, roof rainwater etc. are discharge to the surface drain. Toilet's water cistern,
basin, floor wastes etc. are connected to the sewerage piping recticulation for discharge either to the septic tank
or main public sewerage line which are normally located along the main public road.
I think the application of a layer of good quality water proofing membrane will take care of any unforeseen
contamination or leakage problem.

BTW, this is only a very basic filtration system concept drawing. If Francis is still planning for the 1'5" depth
for the koi pond, I think the Down and Up filtration system will not be effective becos' this system will require
a depth of at least 3'0" to accomodate the filter media placement plus a clear space at the bottom for back
flushing purposes. I think it may be better for him to adopt the 'Bakki Shower' system instead. In the Bakki
Shower system, one only need a 2 pipes bottom drain system to be connected to a Settlement chamber/
Dry Chamber which contain the pump unit to pump water up to the Bakki Shower unit and flow back to the pond.

I hope Francis will visit Kepongkoi Aquarium to see for himself the 'Bakki Shower' system set-up there. I think
he should also check out the cost of the Bakki Shower's Bacteria House filter media as well.

Best Regards,
Thiam Hwa

sunshinekoi
Member

Oct 14, 2007, 11:54 PM

Post #89 of 133 (3531 views)
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Re: [thiamhwa] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Thiam Hwa,
You are indeed correct! With 1'5" deep the effectiveness will not be there. I hope Francis wouldnt mind us voicing out the concern and I apologise for the unnecessary stirs. Unsure

In long run with the intention of raising jumbo koi, the depth is just not enough. Imagine a koi of more than or just equal 2 feet will be having difficulties in trying to eat floating pellets as it cannot swim up right and all the time diagonially up only which will also affect the koi growth in terms of height.
Bakki shower will serve effective since it is a constraint space and you only worry about not enough BS in height instead of digging down deeper. Another suggestion would be, if using BS, I would distribute the BS to the left and right of the pond which each bottom drain will equally draw the pond water in equal length to the BS. The distance travel of water is shorter and cleaning of the pipe will be easier too. Anyway, just a thought.
This all depends on what Francis require......

Sunshine

WSC888
Koi Lover

Oct 16, 2007, 2:28 PM

Post #90 of 133 (3488 views)
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Re: [Epal63] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Epal63,

Thiam has a very good point for you to divert your sewerage pipe and not to be under your pond, to avoid future complication in term of maintenance especially more than 30' distance from each main hole. IMHO, Thaim has drawn you a nice diagram. Once for all, you can resolve all your problem. It will not cost you a lot.

Epal63
Koi Lover

Oct 17, 2007, 11:39 AM

Post #91 of 133 (3439 views)
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Re: [thiamhwa] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Thiam, and all

Thanks for your drawings, and the suggestions. I will study them carefully before I proceed with the pond project.

One of my neighbours has done something similar with his koi pond - 1.5' and similar manhole issue. I will have to make another visit to ask him for more details.

I will keep all of you posted on the progress.

Thanks.
Francis

dechoong
Member

Nov 19, 2007, 3:10 AM

Post #92 of 133 (3192 views)
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Re: [Epal63] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Francis,

1 1/2 ft depth is really insufficient for koi pond. Your koi, especially the females, will likely get out of shape when they grow longer than the depth of your pond.

-Dennis

Epal63
Koi Lover

Nov 19, 2007, 11:47 AM

Post #93 of 133 (3175 views)
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Re: [thiamhwa] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Thiam,

I have taken your advise to visit KepongKoi Aquarium and was impressed with the quality of the water in the ponds there. The draw backs with Bakki Towers are the amount of space required (on-ground) and the challenge to hide it. I was informed that the Bakki Towers with bacteria house do not need much maintenance. Is this really true? KepongKoi setting is a bit different from a 'normal' environment, ie it is fully covered with no rain water falling into the pond - ie no rain water and residuals/dirt from the roof? Anyone has any experience to share on the effectiveness of the Bakki Towers/bacteria house?

And yesterday, I was told of another filter/pump system from Oase (www.oase-livingwater.com) which works on both mechanical and biological filteration. Anyone has tried this filter system?

Best Regards,
Francis

Epal63
Koi Lover

Nov 19, 2007, 11:54 AM

Post #94 of 133 (3174 views)
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Re: [dechoong] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Dechoong,

Thanks for your concern. I can't relocate my manholes as suggested by Thiam. However, I believe my pond height can be at least 2' deep. 1.5' is the height above ground and I can dig 1.5', maybe 2'. So, perhaps the eventual pond is 2' to 2.5' deep (water).

Best Regards,
Francis

thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

Nov 19, 2007, 4:03 PM

Post #95 of 133 (3163 views)
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Re: [Epal63] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Francis,

The Bakki Shower system is for those hobbyists who has limited space becos' unlike the conventional
multi-chambers filtration system, you only need to have a Settlement chamber with a pump attached
to pump up the water to the Bakki Shower tray. Most hobbyists who have installed a Bakki Shower
would normally placed a layer of filter media into the top tray to trap the waste products which are
then clean off every week or so.

I have a BS installed into my system and it has certainly helps to improve the water quality in my pond.

Cheerio,
Thiam Hwa

(This post was edited by thiamhwa on Nov 19, 2007, 4:05 PM)

thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

Nov 19, 2007, 4:22 PM

Post #96 of 133 (3159 views)
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Re: [dechoong] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Dennis,

It is very nice to have you posting again in the Forum. I have been to your regular koi dealer's outlet and
till now have not manage to meet up with you again.

I have a hobbyist friend who lived not too far from yourself and he has a 60 ton pond overlooking the
Bandar Kinrara golf course fair ways. Would you be interested to join me for the pond visit?
It will have to be in December becos' I will be going away tomorrow with the family for a 2 weeks holiday
overseas.

Cheerio,
Thiam Hwa

dechoong
Member

Nov 21, 2007, 12:33 AM

Post #97 of 133 (3080 views)
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Re: [thiamhwa] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Thiam Hwa,

That would be nice. I believe you've got my number... drop me a line when you get back and enjoy your holiday.

Cheers,
Dennis

Epal63
Koi Lover

Nov 27, 2007, 10:12 AM

Post #98 of 133 (2933 views)
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Re: [thiamhwa] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Thiam, and all,

Has anyone ever used bacteria house in the conventional up-down filter system ? And if so, typically, in which chamber (in 4-chamber system excluding the dry chamber) woul the BH be stored?

I understand that in the conventional up-down filter system also requires aeration to promote good bacteria growth. Could someone tell me how the air stones work in this case? Are the air stones connected to an air pump?

Thanks
Best Regards,
Francis

Abangk
Koi Lover

Dec 5, 2007, 4:49 PM

Post #99 of 133 (2764 views)
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Re: [Epal63] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Hello Epal63 and all....

Alamak... very long time got no chanced to access this lovely forum... my apology guys..

Hi Thiam.. it is my pleasure for anyone to use this thread...

Ha.. ha.. we got another friend joining the "Shallow Pond" club hah..

Epal63, I think if you pay a visit to my pond you may get all the answer of your questions above as my pond size is just about yours. Cool

I should be very proud of my shallow pond as everything works perfectly and allow me and family to enjoy watching the behavior of the fishes every moment.

1. My conventional up-down bacteria house "water treatment system" works very well.
2. My pond water parameters are always perfect.
3. The water is crystal clear ever since the first pour until now even though sometimes mixed with rain water from the roof (8 months already).
4. Have never clean my bacteria house yet but scooped off the cumulated debris on the bottom of the settlement chamber once.
5. My pond floor bed is very clean although I got no chance to build the bottom piping:
- The one way water flow system works very well.
- The side wall water jets also work very well that pushing the floating debris swept by the fishes' tail slowly straight into the settlement chamber.
6. I have chosen the cheapest bacteria house that recommended by our great friends here which they called it "Skippy System".

Oh Ya.. the drawing is available at the earlier post of this thread as attached.

Best regards
Abangk

Attachments:

Filterflow2a.jpg (67.6 KB)

Epal63
Koi Lover

Dec 6, 2007, 9:02 AM

Post #100 of 133 (2739 views)
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Re: [Abangk] Shallow Pond [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi AbangK,

Yes, my future pond is very much similar to yours but yours is a much bigger pond. I have learned alot from this forum, particularly this thread, and also alot from ThiamHwa's input. But of course, I am still learning and have much to learn from all of your firsthand experiences.

I am of particularly interested in the following:

(1) You don't seem to have a dry chamber. Is this true and how to get around without it?
(2) You mentioned a "cheapest BH" - skippy system. Could you elaborate more on this and where I can get them?

Thanks
Best regards,
Francis

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