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how to set up filter system

 





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ksng
Koi Lover

Dec 27, 1999, 7:30 AM

Post #1 of 52 (3633 views)
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i got a fibreclass tank which is 3,4 and 8 feet...now i have a filter tank which is came along with the tank,who do i set up a filter system?there are 5 chamber in there.i have filter media such as bio balls,brushes,corel,rough green mat and aslo smooth green mat.how do i need to arrange them?which is the right way to arrange them?

thanks


Khoobg
Webmaster


Dec 27, 1999, 9:33 AM

Post #2 of 52 (3628 views)
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You can place brushes in the first chamber and rough fibre matting in the 2nd, third and fourth chamber. Bio ball is not suitable as a submerge filter media (more suitable for trickle filter.

Coral is not suitable as filter media. Read this thread for more information
http://www.koi.com.my/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000015.html

Smooth green matting is not suitable as it well clog easily.


KokJong
Koi Lover

Dec 27, 1999, 11:20 AM

Post #3 of 52 (3627 views)
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Khoo,

1. Interesting indeed. I didn't know coral has such a negative impact on the fish as described by Shiro.

2. Coral is so commonly used in Koi Farms and Koi Hotels in Singapore, unless they have been wrongly advised by their Japanses counterparts. For this, it cld a rather strong remark input by Shiro. Unless there are concrete documentary or scientific proof on Shiro basis if not I shall stick to my present arrangemnt in the filter box. i,e, coral for the 3rd chamber.

3. Mr. Knsg, you probably shld look at http://www.koi.com.my/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000028.html to pick up some hints to pick your choice filter media and placement.

Regards.

------------------


Khoobg
Webmaster


Dec 27, 1999, 11:51 AM

Post #4 of 52 (3628 views)
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Hi Kok Jong,

Coral tend to trap a lot of fish waste inside its pores and this lead to many problems. Many of us in Malaysia use coral in their first design but subsequently changed to green matting.

Please read the following quote by Hans Ham on earlier thread.

Quote
Hello David!
Hikkui is some kind of a skin cancer to the red pigmentation.The answer point to the filtering system within the pond,it is alwaysin ponds wich use CORAL as filter media.
If coral a used ,there is no way to flush the dirt from the chambers and this will lead to various diseases and hikkui medication will not overcome the proplem as the disease will recur as long the dirt,wast is still stuck at the coral,and if you change out coral every month or so ,you will have no filter in all and it will be not so economical.
the best is to use "synthetic fiber matting for you bio.filter.
Once a filter proplem has been rectified "hikkui"can be removed gently by cotten buds and using "izeki"disinfection liquidfor hikkui.This has to be cared out on several occasions DAILY beforthe tumor disappears.you also may dry to feed izeki past food "ultra f-dx or brilliant f-dx.
I personaly believe that hikkui would come back again.
ps your ph of 6.8 is no good your ar putting your koi to further stress,

regards Hans
or Visit the following URL

http://www.koi.com.my/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000040.html

Another problem with coral is that it will be broken down into fine coral with passing time. Not for long, these fine coral will fill up many gaps in your bio filter and the next thing you have to do is the clear the whole bio filter. This can be a great problem and inconvenience for big filter where the depth is as deep as 4 feet. It will not cause so much problem with smaller filter where cleaning is much easier.

(This post was edited by Khoobg on Mar 12, 2001, 3:00 PM)


Anonymous
Anonymous

Dec 27, 1999, 3:35 PM

Post #5 of 52 (3627 views)
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Coral is cheap but...........


ksng
Koi Lover

Dec 27, 1999, 6:00 PM

Post #6 of 52 (3627 views)
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thanks for the reply
btw i'm still new to this hobby so many of the term u all using i'm still not very sure for that.
1.wat is sunmerge filter and trickle filter?and wat is the different?
2.wat is synthetic fibre matting?

thanks


Khoobg
Webmaster


Dec 27, 1999, 10:45 PM

Post #7 of 52 (3627 views)
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The following picture shows the synthetic matting



Please also read the following threads

http://www.koi.com.my/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000026.html

http://www.koi.com.my/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000005.html

Cheers



(This post was edited by Khoobg on Jan 5, 2000, 3:00 PM)


Melvin Tan
Koi Lover

Dec 28, 1999, 1:24 AM

Post #8 of 52 (3627 views)
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Hi guys,

I had recommended coral to Kok Jong since it is useful in maintaining constant ph in fibre tank. One other way is to use oystershell (available in Mainland Koi) but not sure if there are disadvantages in the latter.

Aware of the disadvantages of coral but you guys would know that the fish farms use massive amounts of this.

Cheers!


ksng
Koi Lover

Dec 28, 1999, 2:57 AM

Post #9 of 52 (3627 views)
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hi there

so now coral or no coral???


dttk
Senior Member

Dec 28, 1999, 3:14 AM

Post #10 of 52 (3627 views)
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Dear fellow members, I would like to share my experience in using a fiberglass tank measuring 8x4x3ft to rear young koi for the last one year or so. The main problem I encountered was maintaining the pH above 7.0. It always drops below 7 even after a thorough cleaning of the tank and filter. The tap water pH is well above 7. At that time I only used fiber matting as filter media. I decided to experiment and used aquarium type gravel in the 2nd last chamber of the filter box that was provided with the tank. It worked well and the pH was always maintained above 7 and that saved alot of work for me. Of course coral or other forms of shells may also work but having heard so much about the dangers of habouring parasites in these media, gravel may be an alternative. It's easy to clean and cheap and for the small filter box provided with the tank, you don't need alot of gravel, maybe just about 10kg will do. Put a layer of sponge at the bottom to support the gravel and put the gravel into a plastic net so that you could remove them easily for cleaning anytime.


KokJong
Koi Lover

Dec 28, 1999, 12:54 PM

Post #11 of 52 (3627 views)
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Khoo,

1. Lets analyse the issue carefully.

a) Fish Waste
I guess all filter media would certainly trap fish waste for its intended purposes, be it ceramic rings, coral. magic stones and filter mats.
The question here wld be maintenance. Since we bag the coral in nettings, cleaning shld not be too much a problem for a filter box.
The purpose of using coral is to maintain a balanced PH in the water. I agree that green mat make cleaning easier and it is light weight.

b) Hikkui (A Nippon term? Happen in Japan only?)
Is coral a confirmed "vector" for Hikkui and not other filter media? How did it looks like? Did Hikkui resides in pond or tank not using coral as a filter media? Is Hans suggesting that all Koi will suffer from Hikkui if coral is used as a filter media as a matter of time. I guess there are so many grey areas here and Hans has to prove it scienctifically to convince us.

2. In my humble opinion, If the coral is properly disinfected and salted, it wld be as safe as any other filter media.

Regards.


------------------


ksng
Koi Lover

Dec 28, 1999, 1:14 PM

Post #12 of 52 (3627 views)
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well coral or not coral still many opinion.this make me more confuse.anyway,my tank turn into dark green after 1 week and now i'm worry if i fixed the right filter steps.first chamber i put brushes,second rough green matting,third smooth green matting,fourth bio ball + coral and the last empty.so did the green water will have any negative effect to the fish?when will it turn green again?can i put in the anti algea powder in to the tank?pls advice.

thanks


Hans Ham
Deleted

Dec 28, 1999, 1:18 PM

Post #13 of 52 (3627 views)
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Hi Coral Media
I don't think i have to convinced or to prove to anybody wether to use coral or not to use coral.
My advise is not to use coral, As all the ponds where Hikkui is presents the finger pointing to the coral as theres no way to clean the dirt from the corals unless you are changing corals and this can be very expensive.
And Hikkui is not only in japan it is presently very strongly in Singapore in alot of farms, that i have seen and also in ponds in Malaysia.
And most japanese, they don't use corals as there is a prove about negative impact on corals., from Japan.
I have advised people before to not use corals.
That's the only thing i can do. And i agree 100% with KhooBg and Shiro about corals.
but it seems to me i am just wasting my time.
Reagrds,
Hans


(This post was edited by Hans Ham on Mar 12, 2001, 3:00 PM)


Khoobg
Webmaster


Dec 28, 1999, 1:40 PM

Post #14 of 52 (3628 views)
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Hi Kok Jong,

I must say that for Hans or anybody to prove it will definitely take time and as a whole, many of us learnt from Japanese experience. Mr Izeki of Izeki Corp was in Malaysia several time and he has ellaborated very much on Hikkui during his seminars here.

The following being the quote from Peter Waddington's book (Koi Kichi page 171)

Quote
I have spoken at length to many breeders in Japan about this problem and all answers point to the filtration systems within the ponds where Hikkui is present.

In ponds where filtration units do not allow a build-up of mechanical debris, I have never seen Hikkui appear. It is always in ponds which have little or no means of removing debris from under the filter media trays efficiently and regularly that problems with Hikkui are experienced. It is important, for many other reasons, that mechanical debris is discharged from the pond system regularly and effectively to avoid build-up of anaerobic conditions, and my advice to anyone experience this problem is to take a serious look at all their filtration system
All we are trying to say is that coral easily allow the build up of debris and is more difficult to flush from the system. You simply have to wash them carefully to remove all debris. Hence we always do not recommend the use of coral.

Many people use sea shell in their last chamber to control pH and is very effective. To help to control pH with coral, you will only require a small quantity to be place at the last chamber where the water is already quite clean. You definite do not require the whole chamber to filled up to control pH.

Hikkui is not limited to only Japan but also occur in Malaysia. Robert Yap once told me one of his kois has Hikkui. Peter Waddington also mentioned in his book that Hikkui problem is quite serious in UK in the late 80's.

I also think that it is not a matter of proper disinfection of the coral. As long as the debris or the waste is not properly removed regularly by flushing and is stuck inside the coral where there is a lack of oxygen, anaerobic condition will occur and the fish waste will not be broken down properly.

Many ponds in Malaysia were built (including mine) with filter stuffed with a lot of coral for the simple reason that it is cheap and this make your pond look cheap to build.

Hans is a practical koi keeper and we always stress that pond must be easy to maintain. Imagine that as time go by that there are so much dirt trap inside and can't be removed, regular replacement of coral will disturb the filter system and it may cost more.

Just MHO.

Cheers


Khoobg
Webmaster


Dec 28, 1999, 1:48 PM

Post #15 of 52 (3627 views)
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Hi ksng,

Whether to use coral or not we will have to leave it to you totally. What we can say is that we do not recommend the use of coral.

It is normal for fish pond to turn green as your bio filter will take one month or more for the bacteria to colonise and mature. In the time being, you will have to control the feeding. Do not feed too much at this stage. You can also expedite the development of filter by introducing biozyme or others.

We have also said earlier that bio ball is not a suitable media when it is totally submerged (totally under water). It is more suitable to be used as media for trickle filter.


Khoobg
Webmaster


Dec 28, 1999, 1:56 PM

Post #16 of 52 (3627 views)
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Hi ksng,

Please read this thread

http://www.koi.com.my/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000016.html


Khoobg
Webmaster


Dec 28, 1999, 2:04 PM

Post #17 of 52 (3628 views)
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This picture on Hikkui was scan from Koi Kichi.



Credits go to Peter Waddington, the Author of Koi Kichi.


ksng
Koi Lover

Dec 28, 1999, 3:52 PM

Post #18 of 52 (3627 views)
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ok now i only know i have a long long way to go b4 i really can go into this hobby.anyway i will try to find out wat is biozyme tomorrow.another thing is can i add salt to my tank as wat i did for my goldfish?


Khoobg
Webmaster


Dec 28, 1999, 4:11 PM

Post #19 of 52 (3627 views)
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Add salt for what purpose ?

Anyway, to read more on common salt, refer to this thread

http://www.koi.com.my/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000002.html


dttk
Senior Member

Dec 29, 1999, 2:03 AM

Post #20 of 52 (3627 views)
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Dear Khoo, the picture of hikkui is very good. What is this whitish, slimy substance made of? and how will they affect the health of the affected koi? Thanking you in anticipation.


dttk
Senior Member

Dec 29, 1999, 2:18 AM

Post #21 of 52 (3627 views)
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Dear fellow members, coral eventhough placed in nets is not that easy to clean and would require great effort, alot of water and time consuming. Unless one is really meticulous in doing it, the chances of dirt getting stuck in the tiny pores are still high. I agree it's easy to remove them from the filter if they are netted but you'd still have to open up the nets and flush them individually if you want to dislodge all the dirt. Coral as mechanical filter media is therefore not suitable. But as biomedia placed in last chamber like Khoo pointed out is acceptable I guess. A Happy New Millennium to all!


Oh Tian Huat
Koi Lover

Dec 29, 1999, 3:17 AM

Post #22 of 52 (3627 views)
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Looking at the picture of hikkui, I think I seen it before on the tail fin of my Shusui, a few months back. A couple of them. There are all gone now, the fish has since grown from 6" to 12". Wonder if they are the same thing and if they will be back.

How do you treat this problem? I use no coral at all but used to have lots of granite chip in the pond. Smile.

-oh-



Oh Tian Huat
Koi Lover

Dec 29, 1999, 3:43 AM

Post #23 of 52 (3627 views)
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Just a thought.... the amount of dirt could be stucked in the coral is far less than what you will get any day, any time in the filter chamber. There are people who only clear the filter once in 6 months.... So what is the actual problem ?

Not recommended does not be necessary be bad. It really depend on application. You just have to know the side effect, possible problem, "play" with it and decide yourself.

For sure using some kind of pH buffer is highly recommended for non-concrete pond or tank. Without a pH buffer you might kill your fish before hikkui developed. Smile

Even with concrete pond after removing all granite chip from the pond base I had twice pH drop to < 7 (KH to 3) and bio-filter seem to stop working.

Well, I have a very small filter, still playing with it to understad more. Play while you can, when the fish are cheap and still small. Smile

-oh-



ksng
Koi Lover

Dec 29, 1999, 4:38 AM

Post #24 of 52 (3627 views)
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ijust remove the coral thing fr my tank.anyway still waiting the water to turn clear.well mention about synthetic fibre matting,fr the picture it look like the rough green matting that i have.is it, they r the same???

thanks

(This post was edited by ksng on Apr 12, 2001, 2:00 PM)


Khoobg
Webmaster


Dec 29, 1999, 6:08 AM

Post #25 of 52 (3627 views)
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Hi Tian Huat,

Quote
Just a thought.... the amount of dirt could be stucked in the coral is far less than what you will get any day, any time in the filter chamber. There are people who only clear the filter once in 6 months.... So what is the actual problem ?
The point here is to have your pond water in good condition, you simply cannot allow the build up of fish waste in your system. Hence in all pond, there is a need to have a good settlement chamber to trap the heavy waste and all the filter chamber must be able to be flushed weekly to remove the dirt. Coral will not allow easy flushing and it require very detail washing to remove all trapped waste. To remove the coral weekly for washing is simply to troublesome, not to mention that it will also disturb the biomass.

You need to flush as often as you can and you simply cannot afford to flush it only twice a year. Many people do not flush or clear their filter often mainly because their filter does not have flushing facilities. To wash the filter media by removing filter media from big filter is a extremely difficult and dirty job and hence a lot of koi keeper will just wait until their koi is plagued with disease and they are forced to clean them.

To control pH, you need them is small quantity in the last chamber only.

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