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pump fed filter system problem?

 






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qqmeng
Koi Lover

Dec 26, 2007, 3:41 PM

Post #1 of 30 (2754 views)
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pump fed filter system problem? Can't Post

i have a pump fed filter system.

here are the details:

1) 2 pump X 7500l/hr (u can see it in the photos)
2) 1 pressurized filter (hidden)
3) 1 fiberglass filter (temporary placed as in the photos)

the fishes are ok... so far no casualty. Laugh

even before i hv got my second pump running thru the fiberglass filter, the fishes are ok. The only problem is the no so clear water.

after installing the second pump, the water s so much clearer... in fact i m very happy with it.

but here s the problem:

1) i hv to clean the J mat and fiber cotton everyday. it is so dirty.
2) even with the above, i still hv loads of waste which i hv to clear it out manually everyday.

i dun mind clearing it once a week during the weekend, but everyday? is too tiring.

overview of the pond


problematic part of pond


the waste


closer look of pond


the temp. filter and the fall



(This post was edited by qqmeng on Dec 26, 2007, 4:38 PM)


qqmeng
Koi Lover

Dec 26, 2007, 4:47 PM

Post #2 of 30 (2742 views)
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Re: [qqmeng] pump fed filter system problem? [In reply to] Can't Post

why is the photos above so small?


(This post was edited by qqmeng on Dec 26, 2007, 4:59 PM)


njin9
Koi Lover

Dec 26, 2007, 5:02 PM

Post #3 of 30 (2738 views)
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Re: [qqmeng] pump fed filter system problem? [In reply to] Can't Post

There's a better way.

From looking at your pond I noticed that there's a lot of crap on the pond bottom. That crap has to go somewhere. It ends in your filter.

If you want to prevent that crap from going in your filter, then you have to remove all that stuff first. Take a submersible pump and attach it to a hose. Get in the pond (it doesn't look that deep) and physically move and place that pump to where the most crap and algae is. Turn the pump on and pump this crap out onto your grass. The grass will love the fertilizer.
Consider this is part of your weekly or daily water change. Whatever amount of water was removed, must be replaced. Simply right?

Why?
First I noticed one thing. The pond bottom is dirty. Installing a new filter will ease the workload on the pressurized filter, but it forces the fiberglass filter to work so much harder then it normally would be. Normally, in the future, both filter units will be running fine. The filtering workload is divided evenly, and both units are doing a good job. Right now, that's not the case. Before the fiberglass unit was turned on, the pressurized unit couldn't handle the workload. It was falling behind because it couldn't cope with the sheer volume of work. That's why you were cleaning out the J.mat and cotton fiber daily.
IF the pressurized filter can only do 75% of the work, then you have 25% left over each day, compounded. Crap(25%) + more daily crap(25%) + more daily crap(25%) + more daily crap (25%). . .and so on. I hope you get the picture. In a week, the 25% adds up to 175%. I know the percent doesn't mean anything right now, but if you put a weight to it, it does. IF you feed 100g of fish food/day and your Pres. filter can only neutralize(convert) only 75g worth of waste, then you have 25 g of undissolved crap that will tend to clog up your filters each day. In or example, after a week, you will have 1.75 kg of crap in your filter. Adding the second filter means that all that crap will be taken care of. It ends up in your new filter.
Now you have 2 filters to clean.

To make your life easier (less cleaning), pump out all that crap to your lawn first. It won't enter your filter. Less work for you.
Right now you're asking the new filter to help out when it's not ready (Bio-filter might need more time to set up). Even if it's ready, it has too much work (crap to clean) to do. Too much of an overload. That's why you'll need to clean out 2 filters. Cleaning out the filters usually means disturbing the bio-media which slows the new filter from being ready, and disrupts the balance of the Pres.filter's. If you use a hose and chlorinated water, then you're gonna kill the bio-filter colonies.

By directly pumping most of the crap out of the water system(pond), you can let the filters do the right amount of work, and mature properly. This way you can clean ONE filter out every week. Then you clean out the other filter next week. Makes life easier and you won't be so tired. If it looks really clean, then you can stretch it out to cleaning ONE filter every 2 weeks.

That's just to start.
The other suggestions are:
1) Install air pumps and oxygenate the pond water. I won't go into detail unless you want me to, but oxygenate your bio-filter and the pond. Leave it on all the time.
2) Grow more plants in the water.
3) I don't know about your filter set-ups, but make sure you have a settlement or vortex
4) Make sure you have a mechanical filter. Using J.mat as a mechanical filter is not a good idea because it takes a lot of time to clean, especially the super fine one.

If I don't make myself clear, or you need a little more explaining, then feel free to ask.



------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Do


qqmeng
Koi Lover

Dec 26, 2007, 5:41 PM

Post #4 of 30 (2736 views)
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Re: [njin9] pump fed filter system problem? [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks for the fast reply.

my pond is about 2 1/2 feet deep.

Those crap doesn't even get into the pump. does that mean the pump s not powerful enuf?

ok... i ll take some photos of the filter and show u guys.


sorry if i hv too many question to ask...Blush


qqmeng
Koi Lover

Dec 26, 2007, 6:38 PM

Post #5 of 30 (2731 views)
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Re: [qqmeng] pump fed filter system problem? [In reply to] Can't Post

here are the photos..


the green filter on the right is the off the shelf pressure filter from tetra.



this is the temp. filter (if works, could be my permanent one) a mechanic filter.


this is how it looks inside.


i thot, since i hv the pressure filter which consists of UV, mat and bio ring there s no need for bio filter in this temp. filter, am i wrong?


qqmeng
Koi Lover

Dec 26, 2007, 6:47 PM

Post #6 of 30 (2729 views)
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Re: [qqmeng] pump fed filter system problem? [In reply to] Can't Post

These are larger version the 5 photos i posted earlier.







>




njin9
Koi Lover

Dec 27, 2007, 4:27 AM

Post #7 of 30 (2698 views)
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Re: [qqmeng] pump fed filter system problem? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
i thot, since i hv the pressure filter which consists of UV, mat and bio ring there s no need for bio filter in this temp. filter, am i wrong?

Often the bio-media is not enough in one of these units. Bio-filtering is the most important. More so then mechanical.

If you intend to make your life easier, I suggest that you hook up the green Pres.filter to the blue one. The blue one will be your mechanical before the water goes to the Pres.filter. If the mechanical filter does it jobs, less crap will go into the Pres.filter. This means you will have to clean it less often.

Sorry, I just noticed your pipes and plumbing. You can still do it, but it's a lot of work to seal off the old built in pipes, and cut new outlets for a bulkhead fitting in your blue filter.

The blue filter is intended to be your mechanical filter? Even if it is, it will eventually be your biofilter. J.mats are not good for mechanical filtering. Bacteria colonies will just start to grow on the J.mats. That's why you have to clean it so often, because it clogs up. It clogs from the bottom up? It's a down/up system? The least you want to do is to stick air hoses underneath all your filtering media. Oxygen is very important. 24/7 all the time. It's also cheaper to run air pumps then a pond pump. This will feed the bacteria colonies that will develop. Oxygen will help them do their job faster and better. The bio-colony will mature faster and it will do its job faster. Solids will dissolve into tiny particles. It might make your pond water a bit more cloudy, but not by much. ***Weekly water changes of 10-15% is all you need. This will remove SOME of the tiny particles as well as ammonia, nitrate and nitrite, as well as fish crud and algae. Otherwise you can do 2-3% daily.***very important

You will have to clean your filter out less often, OR it's cleaner when you do have to clean it. I can't guarantee you because each pond is different. So add air. More air is better. Air will help the fish also, especially at night. There's absolutely nothing wrong with too much air. There's problems when there's not enough air. Looking at your pic, your pond doesn't have enough air.

The best set-up will be vortex or settlement tank. But looking at the velocity of your water outlet, your water volume is too great for any kind of settlement. Crud will just overflow the first chamber and enter your second chamber. If you want me to explain about settlement tanks then ask. Otherwise there's lots of DIY settlement tanks on this forum or the internet you can look up.

I also suggest you replace your first set of JMats with other media that is coarser. It has to start off coarse, then progressively get finer. Ask when you're willing.

You also want to move your filters apart. They are too close together. There's a nice clean spot in the 2/5 in the first set of pics. But there are areas that are not clean. Either it has algae growing on the cement pond and all the crap is stuck to it, or there's bad water circulation. Put your hand in and swoosh it around. If it's loose crap, then you're not getting proper water circulation. I'm sure your pumps are strong enough, it's just not placed properly. Don't let your pump suck this to the filter. It means you have to clean it. Pump it to the grass.

*Do you live in the Indonesia/Malaysia area?
*How big is the pond?
*What model is the Tetra pump?
*Have you considered other filter ideas?



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Do


qqmeng
Koi Lover

Dec 27, 2007, 9:52 AM

Post #8 of 30 (2687 views)
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Re: [njin9] pump fed filter system problem? [In reply to] Can't Post

Again thanks for the fast reply.

I live in malaysia. I went and measure the pond just now is bout 10 ft at its longest and 6.4ft at its widest. the shortest width measured to bout 4ft. and its 1.8ft deep.

Based on the pet shop owner, PFX-UV8000 (tetra green filter) is designed to handle water volume of approx. 7-8000l/hr, and both both my pump are able to do the job of 7-8000l/hr. I m not sure if directing too much water (double the volume) into the green filter will have any negative impact on it.

the blue filter is the up/down system. ok i ll try to put in more air. and i ll buy a vacuum ... let hope it works

you were saying vortex and settlement chamber is the best set up, i can know more bout it? hope it wont trouble you much.

I really appreciate your help.


njin9
Koi Lover

Dec 27, 2007, 3:36 PM

Post #9 of 30 (2668 views)
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Re: [qqmeng] pump fed filter system problem? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I m not sure if directing too much water (double the volume) into the green filter will have any negative impact on it.


I think we have each other confused. I didn't mean to ask you to double the volume of water though the green filter. I just meant to ask you if you can put the pump that feeds the green filter into the LAST chamber of the blue filter. The green filter will still be only getting a maximum of 8000 Lph. This chamber should be the cleanest after it has gone though the multiple stages of mechanical filtration. The strained water will then go to the green filter where it will be bio-filtered. This will mean that cleaning the green filter less often OR cleaning is a lot easier.

If you want to spend money to buy a pond vacuum, then I won't stop you. I don't have one. I won't buy one either. It's just a matter of preference. I find a regular pond pump or aquarium tank power head is good enough. It's also cheap. I like cheap solutions. I just plug it up to a hose and let it pump out the crap while I do something else for a minute or two. Come back to it and move it a meter and let it do its thing . I'm not trying to clean all the crap at once. Just enough for my weekly 10-15% cleaning. Too much water removal means adding more water back in, which may disrupt the balance of the filters, the bacteria colony, the pH, water hardness or softness etc. This might stress out your fish.

I'll have to get back to you about the vortex or settlement thing.



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Do


njin9
Koi Lover

Dec 27, 2007, 6:03 PM

Post #10 of 30 (2658 views)
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Re: [njin9] pump fed filter system problem? [In reply to] Can't Post

settlement
courtesy of Sifu Koi38

What is a settlement chamber thread. diagram courtesy of Khoobg

Suspended Solids thread. Click on Living Jewels if you think you can do some of his stuff.

The difference between a settlement tank and a vortex tank is:
1) Vortex tank, water has a centripetal velocity. Means, there's a faster speed on the outside. And a slow or no speed on the inside(centre).
2) Vortex has an angular bottom. It is deepest at the centre where crap will collect. Usually this reverse apex (deepest part) has a bottom drain where you can open a valve to let everything flush out. This makes life easier b/c you don't have to vacuum.

That's the only difference.

You can have a gravity fed chamber or a pump fed chamber. If I were you, I would settle for gravity fed. You will need to dig though. But gravity fed system is much better because you don't have to deal with 'crap slurry'. )I wish I could have done gravity fed, but there's no room and it was way too difficult for me.) You can have an above ground settlement tank too. It just needs to be pump fed.


** You don't have to have a vortex bottom. A flat bottom is good enough, it's just not as good as an angled bottom.
** To be able to have a bottom drain, you need to A) dig deep enough to allow you some clearance for a bottom drain and plumbing. If you don't want to have to deal with all that extra digging and putting down the plumbing, then you can have B) a reverse bottom drain. Or do what I do, stick a pond pump in there (attached to a hose), and turn it on. Pump all the crap and dirty out til the bottom looks pretty clean.
** Get some drums as a settlement. Most common is the 55 gallon BLUE polypropylene (plastic). I'm pretty sure I read about people discussing where to get these drums in Malaysia on this forum. Search the threads.
** Most people use 1 settlement tank. Others use 2 or more settlement tanks in series. I use 3 settlement tanks in parallel. Read this: vortex filter is it worth the ringgit?
It's an awesome and insightful reading.

I hope this is Ok for an intro to settlement/vortex. Done right, it becomes the most efficient mechanical filter because you don't have to scrub anything when you clean it out. Just open, drain, shut off valve, and let it refill and resume its settlement job. Otherwise, connect pump to hose, put inside of drum. Turn pump on. Clean enough? Turn pump off. Easy right?
Man I like being lazy.
If you have any more questions, feel free to ask. I'm sure more people will give advice after New Year's day, when the holidays are over. So it won't just be me.



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Do


qqmeng
Koi Lover

Dec 28, 2007, 9:57 PM

Post #11 of 30 (2628 views)
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Re: [njin9] pump fed filter system problem? [In reply to] Can't Post

njin9,

haha... i just realized after all these help from you, i havent actually introduce myself. how rude eh

I m Derrick Ng.

Ok, back to the filter. the green filter doesn't give me lots of hassle in cleaning as it has the back wash function with it. by just turning a switch it ll back wash the filter.

The timing of your post came too late, I have bought a wet vacuum from pondec that sadly, cost me quite a fair bit. Well i guess i ll just have to live with it now

The vortex filter seems good. but with its huge size, it might give me the problem of hiding it.

And after reading the posts you recommended, i realized most people have up down as mechanic filter. it seems like the more i read the more confuse i am.

maybe you are rite, i just hook tht blue filer to tht green filter. but may i ask...how long should i expect to see the result?


qqmeng
Koi Lover

Dec 29, 2007, 12:00 AM

Post #12 of 30 (2623 views)
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Re: [qqmeng] pump fed filter system problem? [In reply to] Can't Post



this is how the blue filter gonna be like.

the 1 and the 2 chamber i m planning to stuff it with some fine fiber cotton.

the 3rd with j. matt.

and the 4th bio media.

5th gonna just a empty chamber couse the out let is at the bottom of the chamber.

please advise.


njin9
Koi Lover

Dec 29, 2007, 4:34 PM

Post #13 of 30 (2607 views)
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Re: [qqmeng] pump fed filter system problem? [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't worry too much about up/down. Your second chamber will do it.***Sediments should stay at the bottom of 1 & 2 before the cleaner water enters 3. You need to slow down the water though. Otherwise the sediments will get lifted up and into 3. You might have to make a diverter connection, where half the water does into the filter, and half does to the waterfall and back into the pond, unfiltered. But that's ok. Otherwise, get a smaller pump. See if anyone around you has a pump they are not using that you can borrow.

No fine cotton. Bad choice, especially for the mechanical filter. If you really want to use fine cotton, use it in the last chamber as a bio-filter. Cleaning out cotton is a lot of work. Throwing it out and putting new cotton every week for a mechanical filter will become expensive.

My recommendation:
Chamber 2, use filter brushes. Black Knight is a widely used brand with stainless steel core and different diameters and lengths. These brushes obstruct fine suspended particles that WILL get lifted up. (Some crap has the same density as water, therefore semi-buoyant and won't settle. The brushes block the majority of fine crap from moving on to chamber 3. Some particles will get through, but that's ok. There's no significant channeling with brushes. To clean brushes, you have to turn off the pump, SHAKE the brush, and put it in a pail until you are ready to assemble the filter again. There's a diagram on the link showing how to assemble and overlap the brushes. I think the pics and diagrams can explain much more then I can. It's important the water isn't very fast otherwise the brushes won't be able to do their job. All the crap will get blown (pushed) through the bristles and into chamber 3.

Chamber 1. Do you don't have a bulkhead fitting on the first chamber? If you don't and it's just an unattached hose, then I recommend a simple strainer type of filter above the water line. It's a simple mechanical filtering process. It's a plastic strainer (salad and vegetable colander). http://s254.photobucket.com/albums/hh111/njin9/
In my pics, the colander you see is at the end of my filtration system. That's the water return to my fish tank. (I just bought 4" kois and decided to grow them indoors for the winter and release in the pond next spring. I have very cold weather now.) The 'stuff' you see in the colander is bits of pvc, abs and polypropylene shavings from some of my DIY projects. (It's makes a good cheap bio-filter that's easy to clean. It hasn't gotten really dirty yet.) If I were to put it at the beginning of my filter system, I would use a media that is more coarse, or just use a stainless steel mesh colander. A SS colander would be real easy to clean. Just brush it and swoosh it in water and voila, clean. But this has to be daily. Mesh tends to clog with bio-film easily. As long as the overflow goes back into the pond of overspills into the chambers 1 or 2, you're good to go. You see overflow, it's time to clean the SS strainer. Otherwise get a bigger strainer.

In your area, you might want to consider an empty plastic beer bottle case. I think they are common around your location. It's bigger and you can have it bare(if the holes are small enough, or filled with stuff. I recommend plastic pot scrubbers or shower puffs. Both should be cheap. It helps strain out larger crap such as leaves, algae, fish food and fish crap that hasn't been broken down. This set-up should be ABOVE water level. That's why I asked if your hose was attached. Being above water level helps oxygenate the water as it comes down. When bacteria does form on these scrubbers, the air around it will help it cycle faster.

Chamber 3 + 4. Don't use bio-balls. Bioballs are best in a trickle tower set up where it's aurface area can be maximized with lots of air for bacteria colonizing. It's not as effective in water. Plus cleaning it out would be a pain in the ass because its not buoyant. That means all the crud and sludge will accumulate at the bottom. This is where some bio-balls will be. The bacteria colony on the floor might turn into anaerobic bacteria. If you're new, I wouldn't recommend playing with anaerobic bacteria. Aerobic bacteria safer to colonise and use.

Better choices are K1 or similar media for moving bed. Other DIY media is soaker hose as discussed by Goldminer. I use pop bottle caps. k1 is expensive over in North America. Moving bed is a bio-filter that is self-cleaning. It's makes cleaning easier.Wink
The three important factors are 1) FLOAT(buoyant, semi buoyant) 2)Durable 3)NON-TOXIC. (read the thread ' DIY KI and/or Shower Bacteria House Media' in the soaker hose link.
You don't have to entirely fill Chamber 3 & 4 with moving bed media. max 3/4 deep. But I recommend 1/2 deep or around 10 cm. It needs to be heavily aerated. Lots of air. This will move the media, that's why it's a moving bed. Air will also feed the aerobic bacteria colony on the media. The new bacteria will shed the old bacteria and its byproducts to the bottom. All you have to do is stick your vacuum in and suck it out. Easy? The hard part is getting the media.

My wallet won't let me buy K1 or soaker hose. That's why I'm getting plastic pop bottles. It's bigger then K1, but hopefully this works. I'll post some more stuff on my photobucket if you want to see stuff. Just ask and be specific.








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qqmeng
Koi Lover

Dec 29, 2007, 10:01 PM

Post #14 of 30 (2599 views)
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Re: [njin9] pump fed filter system problem? [In reply to] Can't Post

i think pic will speak a thousand words.

i snap more pics and post it here tomorrow. my english is bad.


qqmeng
Koi Lover

Dec 30, 2007, 2:08 AM

Post #15 of 30 (2587 views)
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Re: [qqmeng] pump fed filter system problem? [In reply to] Can't Post

i found this...man, it is so similar to a vortex... is this a vortex?

http://www.skippysstuff.com/biofiltr.htm

http://www.skippysstuff.com/minime.htm

i might try this, without the bio filter on top... as these 'vortex' will go to the above chamber eventually making the chamber the bio filter.

will this work? cos its so much simple..


njin9
Koi Lover

Dec 30, 2007, 3:59 PM

Post #16 of 30 (2564 views)
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Re: [qqmeng] pump fed filter system problem? [In reply to] Can't Post

Derek, I actually started out just like that.
I read Jim Prior's website and all the explanations and links to understand how the filter was suppose to work efficiently. His filter is/was based on the Skippy too.
Jim's Crazy Bio-filter
There are some problems with this design though.

No matter what anyones says, there has to be some kind of cleaning. It all depends on how much. Lots of fish = lots of cleaning. Few fish = less cleaning. Small filter = lots of cleaning. Large filter = less cleaning. There seems to be a common formula that koi hobbyist accept, your filter is about 30% of your pond surface area.
The larger your pond, the larger your filter should be. Not everyone has, does or thought about this. But the more experienced guys on this forum agree with that.
That rule and the turn over rule. Small ponds should be turned over 1 - 1.5 times in an hour. Larger ponds can have a slower turnover.

Back to the Skippy.
Good idea on principle.
Too bad it's not that practical.

Vortex or settlement tanks have to be deep and large. This all depends on your pump capacity. High flow pump = larger settlement tank. Smaller pump = smaller settlement tank. If you want to use a higher volume pump, and want to use smaller vortex. Then you have to split and divide the input into 2 or more settlement tanks. This slows down the water input speed. If it's two tanks, then speed is divided in half. If three tanks, then velocity is only 1/3. 4 tanks, 5 tanks etc. Understand? The faster the water, the less chance you have of letting the dirt and crap settle.

If you were using only one tank for settlement with your 8000 lph pump, nothing would settle. You should not even try to install a settlement tank. Everything would end up in your mechanic filter or bio-filter. Read Frank Chong's link in the previous post I mentioned.

The picture of that filter is not a good design for a vortex, or a medium density fish/koi pond filter. It's too inadequate. IMHO I think it was meant for a miracle DIY filter that was too good to be real. It was presented to the Average Joe (American website, and market) who wanted something that can handle everything and be easy to clean and be cheap. Trust me, it was too good to be true.

I had a single 14" shushui and I had to constantly clean this filter. One fish. One filter. Lots of cleaning.

For starters, this filter is too shallow for a vortex. From the pic, I think there's only 1 ft(30cm) for vortex. Commercial vortex and settlement tanks are deeper then we are tall. Well I'm not tall. My solution was to split the input to three smaller vortex tanks. My settlement tanks are only 90cm deep. (input is at 30 cm, output is at 85cm. This reduced the speed of water to 1/3 and allows crap to settle on the bottom. I would take a pic for you, but you can't see much into the bottom of a barrel. I think my water velocity is around 1200 lph per barrel including head and resistance.

Back to the SKIPPy.
Vortex is too shallow to be effect. Therefore you have no true benefits of a mechanical filter. All the crap gets blown into the bio-filter. So the bio-filter has to be both the mechanical and bio filter. The problem with that is, you have to clean the media otherwise it will channel. If it fills up all the channel lanes and gets clogged, then the water will push up on the media to escape the filter because the pump keeps pushing more water in to the filter. You will have media in your pond now.
Also when bio-filter gets too much biofilm and sludge on it, the bacteria will start to turn into anaerobic bacteria. Cleaning the bio-media means you will lose lots of beneficial bacteria such that when you start filtering again, you WILL probably get New Pond Syndrome. Cleaning those 'skippy' dishwashing scrubbies is a lot of work. Wring it dry. Rinse. Wring it dry. Rinse. Wring it dry. Rinse. Clean enough? Good. Next PIECE. And there's lot of these.

Crap. Sorry Derek. I wasn't thinking.

Quote
i might try this, without the bio filter on top... as these 'vortex' will go to the above chamber eventually making the chamber the bio filter.

back to vortex.
That thing is too shallow. Vortex is round so that the input can be directed into a speed tangent to the radius(assemble input with a 90 angle.) The speed is greatest on the outside nearest to the wall, and will slow down the higher it goes or towards the centre. The bottom is a cone shape so everything goes to the centre. Since velocity is slowest at the top centre, this is where your output feed to your bio-filter should be.

All you really need is a settlement chamber. the 90 elbow on th inside is optional, but is highly recommended.

And you can dig it so it's level with your pond. Just line with some pond liner. You can do a square, circle or octagon. Just dig deep enough for crap to settle.Do a reverse bottom drain set-up for gravity feed and have your pump pump the 'cleaner' water to your blue chamber.

No skippy. Check out Joe's Pond.
Look at his barrels. Look how deep (tall they are compared to Skippy's)



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Short-term intense, (obsessive) hard work to long-term laziness.

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drcheang
Koi Lover


Dec 30, 2007, 11:38 PM

Post #17 of 30 (2543 views)
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Re: [njin9] pump fed filter system problem? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey guys,
Actually skippy works.. n u dun clean it . I have a 2000L pond.. All diy including n still experiment with it till this year.. I started with simple normal gravel in a 100L box as mechanical n bio filter n it works fine till I m fed up of cleaning every 2 weeks.. I change to vortex n TT.. Then clean vortex every week.. change to add jap matt in vortex n wow never s clear pond in 5 years.. this year I change the vortex to skippy by buying the green scrubs from TESCO.. cost me onli RM 25.00 to fill up the vortex with the green scrubs.. also add Hi Blow the air the skippy.. din clean any filter for 4 months liau.. even back flush my skippy also clear water comes out. TT still going strong n water parameter all nil except NO3 12.5 mg/l.. now just enjoy my fish onli.. BTW 2K pond with 1 15" chagoi, 1 Butterfly showa 12" , Sakai kohaku 12" n 15" butterfly orgon..

Below is the pic how i set up my filter except the vortex is skippy now..

http://www.koi.com.my/cgi-bin/koiforum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=74884;page=2;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;


njin9
Koi Lover

Dec 31, 2007, 2:49 PM

Post #18 of 30 (2510 views)
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Re: [drcheang] pump fed filter system problem? [In reply to] Can't Post

Credit to you. Your pond and filter system does work.
But there's more to it then just that. You run a TT with a set up with 6kg of lava rock and 900 bio-balls. Your TT almost resembles a BS. And your pond has abundant pond plants. All these things help with the water stability and nitrification cycle.

Derrick's pond does not have that. He only has a few plants, lots of small to medium size kois and his bio-filter hasn't matured yet because he has to keep cleaning it because it gets very dirty. I don't know if it's clogging his filtering system or not, but he hasn't given it time to mature. Plus he has a lot of algae and suspended solids.

The deep vortex barrel I suggested was a possible solution to long-term ease of cleaning. He has to remove as much solids as he can now. This settlement tank/vortex will help make it easier now and in the future because most of the solids will be collected here.

Backflushing would be great for any bio-filter. It removes most of the crap yet leaves enough bacteria on the media to function. It would have been great to be able to backflush the Skippy too except my Skippy was pump fed above water level with no knife/slide valve. The moment I turned off the pump, all the collected crap would backflush into the pond. I didn't want that to happen, so I had to manually remove all the bio-filter media to 'hand wash' it while the pump still ran. As well as suck out all the larger solids that did settle.

I'm still not sure on the exact size of Derrick's pond, but he's running 2x8000lph pumps. IMHO I think it's way too much flow for one singular vortex or settlement tank to settle and too fast for a conventional biofilter to be effective. At that water velocity, he should consider a BS. But he would still need a prefilter and a settlement(s) to help remove solids.

P.s. the Hi-blow aerated your 'skippy' media such that you got lots of tiny particles that the pond plants could trap it and help convert it into plant growth. That's why you didn't have to clean it so often.



------------------------------------------------------------------------
Short-term intense, (obsessive) hard work to long-term laziness.

Do


qqmeng
Koi Lover

Dec 31, 2007, 3:52 PM

Post #19 of 30 (2506 views)
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Re: [njin9] pump fed filter system problem? [In reply to] Can't Post

i hv calculated my pond.

the size is approx. 3100litres or 660gallon.

i need to double check to the pump rate again.

initially with one pump the water is not very clear, maybe due to lack of movement in the water. after installing the 2nd pump now i m happy with the clarity of the water.

even with a good vortex installed, i still cant get the some of the debris 'suck' into the pump, they are around the pump but not 'suck in it, making me to vacuum them almost on a every 3 day basis.

i hv changed the setting of my blue filter as per njin advise, ie brushes in the 1st 2 chambers, j mat on the 3rd, ehiem s substract (bio media) on the 4th, and some coral stone on the 5th.

vortex is on the way Sly


njin9
Koi Lover

Dec 31, 2007, 6:34 PM

Post #20 of 30 (2500 views)
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Re: [qqmeng] pump fed filter system problem? [In reply to] Can't Post

Cool. Keep us updated. I hope the pond cleaning is getting easier with that vacuum. Is clarity all you want? Take a clean drinking glass and scoop water from the pond and see if there's a lot of tiny particles in it. See how long it will take for those particles to settle. Take another glass of water from the filter(green or blue or both) output and compare. The filtered water should come out slightly cleaner. Which one? Don't worry. The water will gradually get cleaner with time as you keep doing the water changes. The blue filter bio-filter still needs to get matured. It's highly recommended that you start checking on water quality with test kits.

Cleaner will be a lot easier now. Try not to clean the bio-filter media in your blue filter. Just stick a pump in the first two chambers to pump the bottom crap out first. Then shake the brushes. The pump should suck this stuff out to. Some of the tiny particles will fall into the the bio-filter. But that's ok. The bio-filter should be able to handle it.

BTW, you did add air hose underneath the Jmat and ehiem stuff right? It's very important. Very very important.

Debris won't get sucked into the pump?
1) Check if it's algae and fish poo. Sometimes fish poo gets tangle and embedded in algae, therefore wit's harder to get sucked in. You might want to scrub to remove some algae. I think you get a lot of sun in your area? This along with your nutrient rich water (excess dissolve food and fish waste) is ideal for algae.
That's why you need to do regular water changes. Some out, some in.
2) You don't have good water movement. Try a leaf on the waterfall, and see where the current takes it. That's just for surface. For below water, try a bio-ball, and see where it gets pushed. This will give you a good indicator on the water pattern and if you have a dead spot and how fast/slow the water is moving.
3) Move the pump apart so it collects at different areas of the pond instead of at one spot. I think one of your pipes(green) is fixed in place? See if you can spread the green one away from the blue one.
4) If your pump is rated at 8000lph, and its not sucking in a lot of water, then it might A) have debris stuck inside which is impeding flow. Dissasemble, clean out and reassemble. Odds are, when, you turn off the pump, you might get some back flush. B) your getting too much pipe/hose resistance. The hose is too small or/and too long. As water moves along the hose, it will get more and more resistance, slowing down significantly, especially if there's head height involved. So you will need to shorten down the pipe, or make the pipe bigger. What size hose/pipe are you running?


**** After thinking about this, if you have the pump cleaned and assembled, and it still doesn't have a stronger pull of debris around it, then I think it's only pulling water from above, which is lighter and easier for the pump to do (physics: path of least resistance). If that's the case, the you might have to think up of a solution/modification to the pump such that it has a plate over it (like a BD) and only sucks water lower to the bottom in a bigger radius.

I hope all this makes sense to you. Keep me updated.

P.s. **I hear that a lot of people around Malaysia and Indonesia use coral as a pH buffer. I'm not to sure about this b/c I heard that coarl is hard to clean, and they can contribute to some particular disease. Search around on this forum.



------------------------------------------------------------------------
Short-term intense, (obsessive) hard work to long-term laziness.

Do


qqmeng
Koi Lover

Dec 31, 2007, 7:52 PM

Post #21 of 30 (2491 views)
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Re: [njin9] pump fed filter system problem? [In reply to] Can't Post

has anyone seen this?

http://www.yumekoi.com/articles/bkks_2003.pdf


whats the media he s using? ceramic?


lcs
Koi Lover


Jan 1, 2008, 9:11 PM

Post #22 of 30 (2455 views)
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Re: [qqmeng] pump fed filter system problem? [In reply to] Can't Post

this one here http://www.kepongkoi.com.my/product2.php


qqmeng
Koi Lover

Jan 1, 2008, 10:44 PM

Post #23 of 30 (2451 views)
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Re: [lcs] pump fed filter system problem? [In reply to] Can't Post

my...it looks impressive man. the best thing is that...it is cheap!

have anyone tried this?


teddy
Koi Lover

Jan 3, 2008, 6:23 PM

Post #24 of 30 (2380 views)
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Re: [njin9] pump fed filter system problem? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Dear All,
my pond have vortex from bottom drain and then chambers..
I used to put bioball in chamber 1 (after vortex) but I found waste in that chamber and quite difficult to clean..
last week i pull the bioball and make that chamber as settlement in order to get cleaner water to go to next chambers.

But in fact the waste in small particles still escape from that chamber..
i intent to use mechanical filter media.
what cross my mind are brush and japmat, which one better for mechanical filter?do you have another better options?

rgds,
teddy




In Reply To



qqmeng
Koi Lover

Jan 3, 2008, 8:26 PM

Post #25 of 30 (2379 views)
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Re: [teddy] pump fed filter system problem? [In reply to] Can't Post

hi teddy,

i m using the combination of the 2 .... brushes and j matt. it works for me.

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