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High Nitrates Level? Try This!

 




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Mark
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May 21, 2000, 8:41 AM

Post #1 of 312 (302883 views)
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I have been thinking about some hobbyists who are faced consistently with the problem of bringing down the high nitrates level. Many times we know that plants is obviously the best but this may not be easy for some of us living in high rise apartments or condos. So, my lab tech. cleverly thought about modifying an existing filter box from a conventional wet filtration system into a WET AND DRY FILTRATION SYSTEM. The modification takes only half an hour and the system is put to test for 2 weeks. The results which was checked daily were very comforting and convincing.
Day 1 - 250ppm (for the last 6 months)
Day 2 - 200ppm
Day 3 - 100ppm
Day 4 - 50ppm
Day 5 - 10ppm
Day 6 to 14th days - 10ppm

Picture of the modification is on the way.


Hans Ham
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May 21, 2000, 7:37 PM

Post #2 of 312 (302547 views)
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Hi
This system has been used at sea water aquarium for long time .
This is the most efficient filtration today,wet/dry or TRICKLE TOWER.
rdgs.Hans



Khoobg
Webmaster


May 21, 2000, 9:58 PM

Post #3 of 312 (302567 views)
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Hi Mark,

We have been trying all the time to convince fish lover on the advantages of having a trickle filter.

Your results just published will definite help us to prove its advantages.

Thanks and Cheers Smile


Khoobg
Webmaster


May 22, 2000, 7:20 AM

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Filter Drawing provided by Mr Mark Richman :-



Mark
Veteran

May 22, 2000, 6:24 PM

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About the drawing, the no. of bio-balls are 1200 pieces and not 200. The filter contains 1 ton of water.

Further observations on the system:
1). Algae is reduced significantly due to less nitrate registration, and water in the pond is very very clear.
2). 4 out of 6 bug eyed adult koi have their eyes returned to normal.

Will give you guys more report whenever there are new discoveries.

Cheers!

(This post was edited by Mark Richman on Oct 5, 2001, 9:00 AM)


Ben
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May 22, 2000, 9:56 PM

Post #6 of 312 (302557 views)
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Mark,

Thanks for good piece of informations.

Cheers


Frederick
Novice

May 23, 2000, 1:20 AM

Post #7 of 312 (302559 views)
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I read with interest about the popeye of koi being returned to normal. Do you mean popeye by saying bug eyes?


Mark
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May 23, 2000, 2:16 AM

Post #8 of 312 (302562 views)
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Nope. I am talking about koi eyes having a bluish tinge on the top.


Bancherd
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May 23, 2000, 7:21 AM

Post #9 of 312 (302554 views)
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Alright! Thank you for sharing the information with us.

Now, if I could only finish my trickle-filter.

Bancherd


rahim
User

May 23, 2000, 8:02 PM

Post #10 of 312 (302553 views)
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Hi Mark,

A very good piece of information. I've been wondering on how does the nitrate dissappear chemically?
I mean we all understand that ammonia converted to nitrite and then nitrite converted to nitrate and then it will be absorbed by plant in the filter.
I do understand that trickle filter is excellent in term of its oxygen contents that can increase ammonia and nitrite eating bacteria. But who eat nitrate?

Can anyone care to elaborate?

Thanks


Melvin Tan
User

May 24, 2000, 10:56 AM

Post #11 of 312 (302557 views)
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Hi,

for all in Singapore and those interested in coming to SGP, C&B recently changed all their fibre tank filters to wet/dry type. 1st chamber is cotton wool, then cockle shells and last chamber is synthethic sponge/green mats. Go take a look if you have time - its a miniature version of Mark's excellent idea except that its on a much smaller scale and no bioballs. Last chamber is "dry" 'cos the outlet pipe is twice to three times the size of the inlet pipe. Did not take any pics 'cos I'm a walk-in customer there.

I have my own theory why the wet/dry filters take up the nitrates. The semi-dry chamber will allow algae to grow on the filter media surface and as we know algae needs phosphates, nitrates, etc. Since the microscopic floating algae that give green h2o are not present in a mature pond to absorb the nitrates,the algae in the "dry" chamber will have no competition for food. This is based on the observations of my own filter where I've packed the filter mats almost right up to the water-line of each chamber. I then place bio-balls at the top which are half submerged and I find green looking stuff growing in the bioballs which look like algae.

Can any scientist reading either substantiate or debunk this? It's just my own theory.

By the way I'm an Economist by training and formerly by profession. So plse feel free to shoot down the theory as I have no specialised knowledge to rebut.

Cheers!


Mark
Veteran

May 24, 2000, 6:38 PM

Post #12 of 312 (302555 views)
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Hi Rahim, Melvin and All
The chemistry and bacteria reaction of the trickle filter is difficult to explain it on this forum as they evolve around the H+(Hydrogen), O2(oxygen) and N(Nitrogren).

In short, the large increase in the good bacteria together with its bacterial reaction and O2 *takes* away the nitrites during the conversion process(ie from NH3 to N02). The end resutlt is no or little nitrites is left for Nitrobacter reaction after going thro' the trickle resulting in no or little nitrates(which is the end product) leaving the filter system and back into the pond.

Hope this help and best regards.

(This post was edited by Mark Richman on Dec 5, 2001, 9:00 AM)


Mark
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May 24, 2000, 6:50 PM

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For further investigation, I will be taking away the fibre mattings from the 2nd and 3rd chambers(please see drawing up the forum). I will post the findings here a week or 2 later, so come back for them. In the meantime, do give some thoughts to this system. I am convinced it is good.


rahim
User

May 24, 2000, 9:35 PM

Post #14 of 312 (302554 views)
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Hi Mark,

I am thinking the same thing. That is to remove the submerged mat and see if trickle tower is effective enough to entirely replace the mat.

Heard that trickle filter is 100 times more effective than normal submerged filter. If that is true than this is good way of increasing filter capacity and solve overcrowding problem faced by many of us.

Hope to see the result from you soon.

Thanks


Khoobg
Webmaster


May 24, 2000, 10:22 PM

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Hi Mark, Rahim and all,

I have been using my Trickle filter with 7000 bio balls for a lng time and server my pond well. No nitrate problem and my pond is crystal clear all the time.

Mark, may be you should also do several experiment by using different flow rate. I personally feel that if the water is passing too fast through the trickle, the efficiency is much lesser.

Post your current flow rate for information.


Mark
Veteran

May 25, 2000, 6:33 AM

Post #16 of 312 (302556 views)
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Hi Khoo and All
I am using a 120GPM submersible pump at the moment.

Per Mr Khoo request, I will be setting up 3 systems with about the same stock level for this experiement. I will also be using a 75GPM, 120GPM and 200GPM pump for each system respectively. The filter will be strictly equipped with only bioballs (est. about 3000 bio-balls). Will post my findings in a week or 2 later.

Regards.


Khoobg
Webmaster


May 26, 2000, 4:33 AM

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Hi Mark,

Great. We shall wait for the results of your testing. Thanks


Doc Conrad
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May 26, 2000, 7:54 AM

Post #18 of 312 (302553 views)
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I am glad to see you are finally learning what many of us have known for years, that trickle tower filters drop the nitrate levels. That is also why good lava rock trickle tower filters clear up the green water without UV lights, they starve it out for nitrates. The trickle towers are documented to hold, believe it or not, anerobic bacteria which do the nitrate to nitrogen gas conversion. I realize this seems to be a contradiction in technical terminology, since the anerobic bacteria are those who live without oxygen, and this is a oxygen rich filter. So there is still an unsolved mystery here for me, namely why do trickle towers make this happen when normal filters do not? I don't know the answer to that question, I only know it happens. Since I have installed massive wet/dry trickle towers on every pond and aquarium I have, I don't even need to bother to ever measure nitrates, since I know they will never bother my hobbies.

Someone, I forget who, dragged me by private mail over here for this. Whoever it was, please write me at DocConrad01@aol.com instead of my old twobouves@aol.com address. My wife uses the twobouves@aol.com address and bought me an entire new account and an entirely new computer so we could surf without having to read each others mail or wait turns (yes we also have multiple lines to the multiple computers). This was a good discussion, thanks to whomever it was for dragging me over. Please also look at the current alkalinity and pH discussions at www.koimag.com NI discussion board, some of you may find that discussion useful in some way. Have a very good day, I always enjoy your site.

Roddy Conrad or DocConrad01@aol.com


Doc Conrad
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May 26, 2000, 7:58 AM

Post #19 of 312 (302554 views)
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Oh, my goodness, Mark has finally figured out why his koi were bug eyed, namely the high nitrate levels were doing it! Does that mean when I post here once again that I can run my salt up to 1.0% for either salt or koi without getting bug eyed fish he will finally believe me?

Just a question, Mark, think through the data which led you to post the absurd posted observation that salt levels above 0.5% causes bug eyed fish and see if what I say here is not so.........I certainly see no bug eyed fish up to and including 1% salt levels........

Roddy Conrad


Mark
Veteran

May 26, 2000, 8:46 AM

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Hi Doc
Thanks.

To All - A little discovery/discussion about bug eyes vs salt here.



(This post was edited by Mark Richman on Mar 5, 2002, 9:00 AM)


Doc Conrad
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May 26, 2000, 6:37 PM

Post #21 of 312 (302553 views)
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I will look forward to your tests of flow rate, but will mention in advance I find no influence whatsoever of flow rate on a wet/dry trickle tower filter. I can vary flow rate by at least a factor of 10 with no difference in the filtration function. Residence times from 2 seconds to 2 minutes in the wet/dry towers have given me identical results.

Doc Roddy Conrad


Doc Conrad
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Jun 2, 2000, 6:35 PM

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Two things I learned since posting a few days ago on this topic. One, a friend of mine also got popeye from high salt, but it was at the 1.8% level and she killed about half the koi in the tank at this level. Second, I just got a bunch of technical information from the Nitritech UK filtration equipment manufactuer. Clearly stated in thier trickle tower filtration literature is the statement, "Used as a De-nitrification unit, on the last stage of your filter system for removal of nitrate (NO3), note only when used with SYNTEC media." So Mark and I are not the only ones who have documented the removal of nitrate from the water by trickle tower filtration.

Roddy Conrad


Mark
Veteran

Jun 6, 2000, 6:50 AM

Post #23 of 312 (302554 views)
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I like to acknowledge that Trickle Filtration System indeed takes away nitrates in pond/tank.

Tests on the 3 Trickle systems which I promised is not over yet. So guys please be patience for the results.
However, I have got good result arising from the test of the existing filter system mentioned up the post in terms of their advantages and disadvantages.
Advantages:
1. A trickle filter is indeed a fantastic system that remove ammonia, nitrites and nitrates.
2. It increases the O2 in the water tremendously.
3. There is no foul smell coming out from the filter box unlike before.
4. You don't need the fibre mattings to assists in the water filtration.
5. The size of box is scaled down from a 3 media filter chambers to 2 (ie. 1 for settlement and the other for bioballs).
Disadvantages:
1. Bioballs are expensive (S$0.25 ea) as compared to fibre mattings. (I know of some that cost S$0.10 ea.)
2. You need a settlement chamber to filter out the heavy stuff in the water before entering the trickle system.
3. System will not work for a virgin pond and new filter.
These are the nitrates results:
Day 1 10ppm (Late morning - all f/matting and heavy brushes moved out)
Day 1 10ppm (EOD)
Day 2 10ppm (EOD)
At this time, I decided that we should bring the nitrates back just to proves its effectiveness.
Day 3 10ppm (Late morning - moved bioballs out and returned f/mattings)
Day 3 70ppm (EOD - noticeable nitrate level increasing throughout the day)
Day 4 100ppm (EOD - returned bioballs and moved out f/mattings again)
Day 5 50ppm (early morning)
Day 5 10ppm (EOD - excellent nitrate reading)
*EOD* End of Day
Note: These results were taken and recorded by lab technician.


Doc Conrad
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Jun 8, 2000, 10:26 AM

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Trickle towers will work well with a large range of media choices from my experience. Certainly lava rock is a good choice. I don't know about the matting, if Rich says it does not work, I will certainly believe him. I use lots of different materials for trickle towers successfully, but have not tried Japanese filter matting myself yet. Open cell foam works okay for me, though. So does plastic scrub pads, biobale, lava rock, bioballs as Rich uses, Siporax is the best of them all but rather expensive...

Love this thread and what Mark is doing with it...such a pleasure to see such competent work...

Roddy Conrad


Mark
Veteran

Jun 8, 2000, 7:07 PM

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Hi all
The f/mattings in question were immersed in water as you can see from the pic up the post. They are moved out for the benefit of some hobbyists who wanted to know if the trickle works in the absence of f/mattings. I agree with Doc Conard that if f/mattings were used in place of bioballs, the trickle system will perform an equally good job. So far I have not post my experiments on the 3 systems which I promised to try them out on 3 diff. flow rates. In fact I have also a 4th system with the only the japanese f/mattings running at 75GPM. All 4 tanks are heavily overload and results so far have been *fantastic*. (You saw in my up post that I have problem building up nitrates for the experiment - isn't this something great and good news to all). My wife and I were amazed by the interim results on all the 4 systems under test - that they work so well in a overly stock tanks.

My interim conclusion is *Trickle system seems to be the direction for bringing down nitrates level whereby during the process of nitrification, somehow ammonia and nitrites are reduced to zero.*

Doc RC, one more point which you pointed out in your earlier post about the diff. flow rate. I found your prediction to be true -there is no influence whatsoever of flow rate on a wet/dry trickle tower filter in all the 4 systems so far.

There were two noticeable setbacks -
1)the *heavy stuff* seems to return to the tanks and clearly visible in crystal clear water.
2)the system cannot kick when its virgin.

--------------------------------------------
Some New dated 20th Aug 2000 - More findings since I last post on this system 3 months ago. I added more info into this particular post so that those who come here will not be mislead by my earlier reports.

About the media - Bioballs has provened itself to be the best as compared to synthetic Japanese matings(SJM), cremaic rings and hair curls. There is absolutely zero maintenance required in bioballs. The worst being SJM which consistently give up a foul smell coupled with lots of insects flying at the opening of the filter system.

About the height/depth - My observation show that if water is made to travel through a distance(height of bioballs) of 18 inches or more, the results are good as compared to those that are less than 18 inches. Anything that is less than a foot is a waste of effort.

About the flow rate - I must apology for the wrong information given in the up post. My 3 months observations showed that a slower water flow rate gives good results as compared to a higher flow.

My recommendation - For long term use only bioballs as trickle media. (For short term, any types of media works.) Although a slower pump works better, use a pump that will circulates 1.5 to 2 times per hours of your total volume of water.

Regards.


(This post was edited by Mark Richman on Aug 8, 2001, 9:00 AM)


Doc Conrad
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Jun 9, 2000, 5:58 AM

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Such magnificent work, I must say it again. I have my own trickle tower experiments being set up for specific questions to be answered, sort of different questions than Mark's, run a different way. I want to know what kind of a load these trickle towers can actually handle, and do not want to kill a bunch of fish with the testing, so am trying something different from Mark. I have done many of the things Mark is presently doing. I posted the results here and there, but no one seemed to believe me, because I did not put the numbers up on the boards like Mark is doing. So he understands psychology better than I do, I need to ask my wife the shrink for more lessons to come up to Mark's obviously superior people skills. Anyway, back to my current study. I am comparing submerged versus trickle tower media in ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate conversion capacity by simply adding so much ammonia each day and measuring all the parameters to find out the capacity of alternate filtration designs for these conversions. It is more of an engineering approach to document the technology, since I have been unable to find it documented in a useful form anywhere else than Mark's fine postings here. Again, wonderful thread from which we are all learning, please give all our regards to your wife and let us help persuade her to allow you to continue...

Roddy Conrad


Marcus
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Jun 23, 2000, 9:20 AM

Post #27 of 312 (134300 views)
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Dear all,

sorry...this is an old thread but I still find it very interesting. May I post a question for Mark:
what capacity is the system u tested? Becos ur nitrates seem to go so fast, just a few days after u set up the trickle tower.

I have recently constructed my trickle tower for my 15 ton pond. The system has been in operation for more than 2 weeks. However, I did not find my nitrate level reduced significantly. Moreover, the water is a little greenish in the morning and afternoon. It only clears in the evening.
Is my trickle tower not matured yet? Or is it not too efficient?

Melvin had asked me to be patient. But can't help asking after reading what Mark achieved.
Thanks!

Regards


Mark
Veteran

Jun 24, 2000, 5:06 PM

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Hi Marcus and all
Due to an urgent business trip coupled with heavy flying for almost a week, I am currently suffering a terrible jet-lag.
I will finalise my test by this week and I should be able to give you guys the result.

With regards to Marcus question, the tank is a small 3 tonage fibre tank *overstocked* with 40 pcs of 16 to 20inches fish. The filter box is a 1 ton water tank when filled. The bio-balls section which you see in the upper post contains 1200pcs of balls.

Regards.


(This post was edited by Mark Richman on Dec 6, 2001, 9:00 AM)


Anonymous
Anonymous

Jun 30, 2000, 10:50 AM

Post #29 of 312 (134300 views)
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Message for Mark Richman. Roddy "Doc" Conrad advised me to visit your site, especially this nitrate thread, as he knows I have an interest. I have to say that this is a very good thread backed by solid research and good science, which is often lacking elsewhere, where politics and refusal to consider any new idea from non "experts" is more important. I can see I will have to spend some time going thru the other threads here as well. I have been playing with nitrate stripping resins to keep nitrates down. It works quite well, but involves more work. I was originally interested in trying trickle tower technology on my pond when I built it, but was advised against it by some moron, sorry, "expert". Do keep up with the good work. I shall have to buy Roddy a drink for pointing me in your direction. Thanks again, bil.


BScottGould
Novice

Jul 10, 2000, 12:54 PM

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In a recent attempt to rid my filer system of snails I managed to kill most of the bacteria in my filter system. Switching to an emergency protocol I did a large water change, added HCL (hydrochloric acid) to the pond to drop the PH below 7.8 (ammonia goes into an ionized state at lower PH levels and is less toxic), reduced feeding levels and added some new bacteria from a solution. At this point I read a message from an aquaintance saying that her trickle tower filter was fully cycled and had removed all traces of ammonia, nitrite and even nitrate from her pond in just 4 days! I thought it was worth a try to do a little experiment of my own.The following are exracts from my pond logbook:

Sunday: ammonia= 1.25 mg/l nitrite=0 nitrate= 200mg/l I got the tower done today. Its just 1/2 a barrel sitting on the corner of the pond, over hanging it slightly. I put a 2'hole in the over hang bit and a stainless steel grate 2'off the bottom. I filled it with about 10-15 gallons of lava rock. I hope its not too fine, I would have preferred something much coarser.Right now I'm using that fine pond substrate (its what I had on hand) in my test rig and there seems to be no trouble. I topped it off with a rotating sprinkler that distributes the 200 gals / hour of water over the entire top surface. I put a layer of black Japanese matting on top of the stone. This should improve the distribution and allow me to rinse off any icky algae or other nastiness without rooting in the lava stones. I really curious how well this works.

Monday: waterchange 25%

Tuesday the water was still showing 1.25 mg/l NH3.I changed the pump to increase the flow to almost 400 g/h.

Wednesday: This morning the larger pump appeared to have broken, I replaced the pump with the small one again and in the PM bought a new pump to replace the broken one. I tested the water and to my amazement the NH3 was almost gone.

Thurs: Tested the water again and the result was the same, 0- NH3, 0 NO2. nitrate is down to 20 mg/l Its amazing what 12 gallons of rock can do.

Sat: I shut the trickle tower off for 12 hours today to see if the NH3 goes back up again. within 12 hours it was showing 0.25mg/l It would appear the the whole 10.000 liter pond is running on just this one little filter!

I'm planning to use this rig or one like it to help filter the 150 gal fiberglass tank that I wish to use for my small koi this winter. Grow them big a bit faster in warm water in the shed. The fact that this sort of filter works so well makes me feel allot more confident, seeing that water quality is going to be the most important issue. If this works then I plan to make a collapsible basin of about 1500 liters and try to keep all the fish indoors in the winter of 2001 / 2002. The fiberglass tank is all surrounded with insulation so heating it shouldn't be to difficult even if the shed itself isn't heated.
B.Scott



BScottGould
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Jul 10, 2000, 1:12 PM

Post #31 of 312 (134290 views)
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Moving slightly farther I've been wondering about filter bacteria, trickle towers and temperature.

1.How well would trickle tower (or any) bacteria survive a cold winter provided the filter is left running?

I leave my submerged filter running all winter long. The temperature drops to as low as 6C. I reduce the flow by switching to a smaller pump and change the intake to ones located on the upper sides of the pond only 50cm under the surface. Up to now I have never had trouble with NH3 or NO2 in the spring. I have the impression that the filter bacteria are dormant and start working again as soon as temperatures permit.

2. What effect will temerature play when starting a new trickle tower system in cold weather?

The start up rate for trickle towers is simply incredible! As I told above I used a trickle tower system as a "lifeboat" when my submerged system failed. This cut the time needed to regain filtration from 4-6 weeks to 4 days. I wonder what the results would have been if the water had been colder. Seeing as nitrobacter are much slower to establish at temperatures under 15C, it would be interesting to see if the rate of establishment is faster in cold.
B.Scott


Doc Conrad
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Jul 10, 2000, 5:59 PM

Post #32 of 312 (134292 views)
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Scott, I run my lava rock trickle towers all Winter long in my outside koi ponds and can depend on them to keep ammonia and nitrites at zero levels 24 hours a day 365 days per year in my outside ponds. And they keep a hole in the ice as well!

But think carefully through it before you bring this technology "inside" for the Winter. In my basement pond, even with excellent trickle tower filtration, if we choose to turn the house thermostat down to where the inside pond temperature goes to the 50 to 60 degrees Fahrenheit range, and stays in that range for weeks at a time, you will find it very difficult to keep nitrite levels low. At even 62 degrees F, with my trickle towers nitrites stay below the measurement level even with my 300-400 pounds of koi in this inside pond. Just don't try to run an inside pond in a situation where the water temperature stays in the "BAD" 50-60F range for a long period of time. Outside this does not occur because the water does not stay in this temperature range long enough to cause a problem.

Doc Roddy Conrad


BScottGould
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Jul 10, 2000, 11:14 PM

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Doc,
My plan was to heat the water using 2 stepped aquarium heaters (settings slightly spaced) to keep the water at 18-20C (65-68F). At this temperature I should bee able to attain some extra growth from these 1 year old fish ( 1 1/2 when they go in the tank). If nessesary I can go a few degrees higher, what ever it take to get a reasonable amount of growth without making me the utillity companies #1 customer.
B.Scott


Anonymous
Anonymous

Jul 11, 2000, 2:50 AM

Post #34 of 312 (134290 views)
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Can this trickle be used for tropical fish keeping?


Mark
Veteran

Jul 11, 2000, 4:38 AM

Post #35 of 312 (134291 views)
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Certainly.


Khoobg
Webmaster


Jul 11, 2000, 4:54 AM

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Hi Jeremy,

If you stay around KL, you should be able to buy some ready made trickle filter for your aquarium where you keep all kind of fish. It basically consist of tray with many holes at the base and can be stack to many layers as you wish. Just purchase some ceramic rings as medium for the trickle and your aqaurium water will be free of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. All you need to do is to buy sufficient tray to ensure that you can achieve an equilibrium between the number of fish you keep and the ability of the filter to cope.


Ben
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Jul 12, 2000, 10:34 AM

Post #37 of 312 (134289 views)
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The following were extracted from the Internet :-


Quote
Wet/Dry Filters

Also known as trickle filters, wet/dry filters work on the principle that the beneficial colonies of ammonia neutralizing bacteria grow best in the presence of well oxygenated water. By ``trickling'' water over unsubmerged plastic gizmos or other media, wet/dry filters provide a very large air/water surface area. They come in many shapes and sizes. The boom in successful saltwater aquariums in the 1980's can be attributed to the use of this filter type.

Many things can used for the media, with the best providing great amounts of surface area, while at the same time having large openings to reduce the tendency to clog and ensure efficient gas exchange. The problem of clogging of the media can also be reduced by prefiltering the water with an efficient mechanical filter, and (when used) with a protein skimmer.



Quote
Denitrators
Another specialized type of filter is designed to help in the control of the accumulation of nitrates, the end product of the neutralization of ammonia by the biological activity of bacteria. These fall into two categories, the anoxic bacterial, and the plant/algal scrubbers (discussed in the next section). It has been discovered that colonies of bacteria which grow in oxygen poor environments can be harnessed to biologically consume nitrate, and release harmless nitrogen gas. This method is achieved in one of two ways. The process was first developed in the 1980's through the use of a box system, coil, or porous foam block which allowed very slow transmission of nitrate-laden water. Inside the box/coil/foam, sugar was placed, and the slow passage of water quickly became anoxic. In these anoxic conditions, bacteria would grow and consume excess nitrate. Many aquarists have reported failure in their attempts at this type of filtration.
More recently, hobbyists have developed similar anoxic conditions below plates at the bottom of their tanks buried in fine sand. In the saltwater systems, these sand beds are referred to as "live sand". In freshwater planted systems, fine grain substrates are allowed to develop anoxic zones which probably also have a denitrification capability.

The Berlin Method of reef aquariums involves the use of large quantities of live rock harvested from tropical reefs. Aquarists report good nitrate control in live rock systems, which, though not well understood, probably involves the denitrification of the nitrates within the interior of the rocks. Another school of thought is that the heavy growths of calcareous algae on the live rocks in Berlin Method reef aquariums consume nitrate.




Quote
A new anoxic process to remove nitrates from the sewage wastewater has been installed at the Sewage Treatment Plant (STP). The equipment for denitrification uses two parallel towers with packing, similar to the existing trickling filters, onto which microorganisms will attach for feeding on the nutrients in the passing water. The system was installed between the primary settling tanks and the trickling filters.

The anoxic process operates under conditions of very low free-oxygen so those microorganisms which feed on organic matter must use the oxygen in nitrates for their metabolism.


Both explained the denitrification process differently. Post your opinion here !



Jeremy Yeo
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Jul 12, 2000, 11:16 PM

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Mr Khoo(Webmaster)
Thanks for your prompt reply. I am from Singapore. Do you know if I could buy them in Singapore?


Doc Conrad
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Jul 13, 2000, 3:41 AM

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Ben, since submerged media, at low oxygen content, do not convert nitrate well, and trickle tower media out in the air do convert nitrate well, the explanation saying the trickle tower works is the correct explanation. The aneroxic bacteria explanation is wrong.

Doc Conrad


Marcus
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Jul 13, 2000, 6:17 AM

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Dear all,

I have constructed a DIY trickle tower about 1 month ago. However, I did not manage to bring down the nirtate level low enough. It keep staying at about 50ppm. My pond is 12 ton + 3 ton filter and the tower is standing 1m tall. Can anyone comment on this? I would really like to achieve low level of nitrate...something like 10-20ppm?




(This post was edited by Khoobg on Dec 7, 2000, 9:00 AM)


Khoobg
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Jul 13, 2000, 7:11 AM

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Hi Marcus,

You should consider increasing the number of bio ball used in your trickle filter. My pond is slightly larger than your pond but my trickle filter use up to 7000 bio balls and it control the nitrate in my pond perfectly. I have been running my trickle filter for two years and it seem to be able to cope with koi which is much larger in size now


ET
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Jul 13, 2000, 9:23 AM

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Hi Marcus and all ,

I am not 100% sure but i think that u should change the positions of the bio-balls and space for the air .
Let the water pass through the airspace before getting to the bio-balls , this way it can have more sufficient time to get oxygen to boost up the growth . The bio-balls themselfs are used to provide the space for the bacteria to grow .
What Khoobg has say is true , you would need more bio-balls to provide the sufficient space for the bacteria to grow . Another altenative is to use bio-home which i heard is much more effective as they provide more space due to their high porosity .

-ET-


Ben
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Jul 13, 2000, 10:26 AM

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Hi Mark,

As for the trickle filter used in your experiment with 1200 bio balls, please elaborate on the following :-

1) What is the size of the pond water your filter is treating

2) How many koi are there or total koi weight in kg

3) Amount of koi food given to the koi everyday during the experiment period.



Mark
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Jul 13, 2000, 11:52 PM

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Quote
Originally posted by Mark Richman:
Hi Marcus and all
....With regards to Marcus question, the tank is a small 3 tonage fibre tank *overstocked* with 40 pcs of 16 to 20inches fish. The filter box is a 1 ton water tank when filled. The bio-balls section which you see in the upper post contains 1200pcs of balls.


There is not change in the feeding style. One feed per day in the morning for not more than 5 minutes.

Hope this help.



Marcus
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Jul 14, 2000, 7:23 PM

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Hi,

I have read in another article that some hoppyist use filter mat rolled up as media for their trickle tower. According to them, this work well. Any comments? Will this be as good as bioballs?

Does anyone knows where can I buy a shower head that can spray out to about 50cm diameter at a height of 20cm?Or a rotating shower head? I have a pump to provide the power. Need this becos I think my drip tray is not effecient enough.

Cheers


BScottGould
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Jul 16, 2000, 1:18 PM

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Hi Marcus
You know I used a rotating sprinkler to distribute the water over the top of my experimental TT, but in retrospect I've decided that it was more complicated than nessesary. In the future I'm planning to use a simple pipe protruding vertically from the center of the filter and then drilling holes of differant diameters to allow the water to spray at right angles out onto the filter medium. By arranging the holes with the proper distibution/size it should be possible to evenly cover the entire top surface of the filter. Leave the top of the pipe open as a safty valve should the holes become clogged.
B. Scott


Khoobg
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Jul 16, 2000, 4:59 PM

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Marcus, it is all depend on the flow rate you are getting the water to your trickle. In my case, I just use a stationary pipe outlet and let the water flow onto a tray having hundreds of small holes and the water still filled up to 3 inches in the top tray. In this way, water will trickle down quite uniformly and the results has been great.


BScottGould
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Jul 17, 2000, 1:41 AM

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Question?
If the top tray is filled with water how does fresh air enter the system?


Marcus
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Jul 17, 2000, 6:56 AM

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Hi,

I have drill some holes of diameter 1cm as shown in the pict. These should ventilate the media a little. Will drill more soon.


Khoobg
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Jul 18, 2000, 5:29 PM

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Quote
Originally posted by Jeremy Yeo:
Mr Khoo(Webmaster)
Thanks for your prompt reply. I am from Singapore. Do you know if I could buy them in Singapore?


Hi Jeremy,

Just took some digital pic of my trickle filter which I purchase four years ago for my aquarium.







Maybe you can do one yourself.

Cheers


chiamlh
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Jul 18, 2000, 9:00 PM

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Hi Khoobg!

I don't know what si Bio-Balls ??

Can explain please.. Where I can buy it at kl or selangor ???

What his look like?

thanks!


Khoobg
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Jul 19, 2000, 12:45 AM

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Hello chiamlh,

The following show five pcs of bio balls



The following is the container that hold bio balls in the DIY trickle filter.



Bio balls should be available in most of the koi dealers' shop or farm in KL.


dttk
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Jul 19, 2000, 6:35 PM

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Dear Mr BScottGould, perhaps Mr Khoobg's trickle tower has air inlets right below the tray to allow for air entry. Would you like to elaborate more on that Mr Khoobg? Cheers!


Khoobg
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Jul 19, 2000, 6:50 PM

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Quite a number of small holes were drilled on the side wall of the tray. Allowing air flowing into the containers.


Khoobg
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Jul 23, 2000, 5:04 AM

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Pic of trickle filter email to us by Marcus.



rahim
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Jul 24, 2000, 7:49 AM

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Hi everyone,

I went to Zen Watergarden in Taman Desa last Saturday. I saw a very nice trickle filter made of huge PVC pipe. I think the PVC pipe diameter is about 10 inches. They use bioballs as the filter medium. Very nice design as it doesn't potruding near koi pond.

Hope the people in Zen can reply because I cannot find anyone around to ask wether it is for sale.

Thanks


Khoobg
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Jul 24, 2000, 9:16 AM

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Hi Rahim,

You can get Hans Ham to do one for you as he has made several units for several pond owners. Or you can do one yourself using 12" PVC pipe.

We have infacted mentioned it earlier in the following thread http://www.koi.com.my/...um4/HTML/000026.html


Anonymous
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Jul 30, 2000, 7:16 PM

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Hi everyone. First of all, as an employee at a pet store which deals alot with ponds, it's nice to see that more people have become aware of the benefits of wet/dry biological filtration. While I do not maintain a garden/ornamental pond, I am very active in the aquarium hobby. I just recently joined a website pertaining to marine aquariums. This topic showed great interest to me in that many aquarists are now doing away with trickle filters. I noticed in Mark's drawing that he had those mats where algae could accumulate and consume NO3. I would be anxious to see the results of their removal. I thought maybe you guys would like to know why my fellow aquarists no longer use this method. The fact is that it is too efficient. Nitrate production is too fast for us to keep after it, so now deep sand beds (4-5") are used to create the anoxic zones for denitrifying bacteria. I know aquariums and ponds, though similar in many ways, have many different factors that contribute to them. Anyway, if nothing more than a biotower is used in these filters, how does the denitrification take place?


Mark
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Aug 1, 2000, 6:25 AM

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Hi
Keeping aquarium fish is very different from keeping koi. Japanese synthetic blue/green mats are used to build good bacteria. They are not meant to trap algae. My 2 filters now operate without the mats and they have been operating for more than 2 months now. The water parameters taken once weekly constantly report pH 7.5, ammonia and nitrites zero and nitrates never exit 10ppm.

In a wet system, the rate of nitrates production are dependent upon the effectiveness of the bio bugs in those mats. Nitrates is the end product of nitrites. If koi are over fed, more ammonia will be produced and hence more nitrates is produced by the nitrites. So nitrates builds up and sometimes could reach as high as 300ppm. So far, there is no known economical way of removing these nitrates besides the introduction of a trickle system. It is an old trick and proven by many hobbyists for its effectiveness in stripping nitrites from the water that passes thro' it. This may be bad news to your sales of your small filter systems 'cos a trickle system is very easy to build. I built mine for less than a S$100 to handle my 1200 gallon pond. It is never a dying thing so to say.

Hope this help.


Khoobg
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Aug 1, 2000, 6:37 AM

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Hi FishBait,

Welcome to the forum.

Using sand bed to achieve anoxic condition may be suitable for aquarium but it is definitely not practical for koi pond. In most ponds, we have bottom drains. Anyway, like Mark has mentioned, trickle filter is extremely effective, cheap and almost maintenance free and there is no reason for us to do away with it.


rahim
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Aug 9, 2000, 1:19 AM

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Hi Khoobg,

I just bought two 8" diameter PVC pipe about 8 ft long. I have some free time through this two weeks and thinking about building a trickle tower to solve my green pond problem.
the idea is to imitate the Zen watergarden trickle filter model.

Anyway, what is the average price of one bioball pictured above?

Thanks


Khoobg
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Aug 9, 2000, 2:36 AM

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Rahim,

I am not sure on the latest price of bioball but I used to buy mine at RM 0.10 ~ RM 0.11 per pc.



rahim
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Aug 9, 2000, 10:15 PM

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Hi Khoobg,

Went to aquarium shop in Seremban today. The bioballs pictured above is about 15 cent each and I bought different type which is rounder and cost about 25 cent each.

thanks


Khoobg
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Aug 9, 2000, 10:46 PM

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Rahim,

Thanks for letting us know. The infaltion factor come into play. In KL, I think it will be cheaper. If you ever come to KL, you can try to go to Kian Weng in Sungai Buloh Industrial Area where prices should be lower.



rahim
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Aug 17, 2000, 7:59 PM

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Hi Khoobg,

I went to Syarikat Atari in Taman Desa KL last Tuesday. Met the owner Mr. Robert and bought 300 more bioballs. The price there is about 13 cents. Same with the one I bought in Seremban which cost me 25 cents each.

My trickle tower is running today. Seven feet tall of 8 inches diameter PVC pipe and two stages. First stage, 200 bioballs and second stage has 300 bioballs.

Hope to see the effectiveness soon.

Thanks


Khoobg
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Aug 18, 2000, 6:23 AM

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Good to know that you get cheaper bio ball from Robert Gan.

By the way, it will nice if you can post your nitrate reading before and after running trickle tower for the benefits of all here.

Also kindly post the cost your building your trickle.

Thanks in advance.


Marcus
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Aug 20, 2000, 8:21 PM

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Dear all,

after so many weeks of testing my trickle tower, I finally realise that mine tower is not working! I tested the nitrate level and it is consistantly very high...>100mg/l(ppm)
!!!

However, after installing my trickle tower, my water has been perfectly crystal clear. I do not know what is the reason that my trickle tower is not working. Any advice will be appreciated.

Here are my design specifications:
(Top to bottom)
1) drip tray
2) bio-balls
3) lava rocks
4) 1 layer of fiter mat

As shown in the picture above, I have holes drilled on the container below the drip tray. I have added more than what the picture shows.

My pond is relatively lowly stocked. I have about 0.24% of salt concentration in the water. Could this be a reason? If not, can any one see any problems with my trickle tower???

Thanks



Khoobg
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Aug 21, 2000, 2:38 AM

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Marcus,

Is the water flow rate through your trickle too fast ? I have mentioned earlier that flow rate does have some effect on the efficiency of my trickle and low flow rate tend to have better result. Mark has also confirmed that in the other thread. Hence please check and reduce the flow rate through the trickle.


Mark
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Aug 21, 2000, 8:13 AM

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I have added the following information in the up post dated 08-06-2000 (Page 1 of this topic):

Quote
Something New added (dated 20th Aug 2000) - More findings since I last post on this system 3 months ago. I added more info into this particular post so that those who come here will not be mislead by my earlier reports.

About the media - Bioballs has provened itself to be the best as compared to synthetic Japanese matings(SJM), cremaic rings and hair curls. There is absolutely zero maintenance required in bioballs. The worst being SJM which consistently give up a foul smell coupled with lots of insects flying at the opening of the filter system.

About the height/depth - My observation show that if water is made to travel through a distance(height of bioballs) of 18 inches or more, the results are good as compared to those that are less than 18 inches. Anything that is less than a foot is a waste of effort.

About the flow rate - I must apology for the wrong information given in the up post. My 3 months observations showed that a slower water flow rate gives good results as compared to a higher flow.

My recommendation - For long term use only bioballs as trickle media. (For short term, any types of media works.) Although a slower pump works better, use a pump that will circulates 1.5 to 2 times per hours of your total volume of water.

Regards.


More changes are made to one of my existing filter box. This round it is a completely wet/dry system. Notice also the heavy brush are moved out. Please note that the cost of the bioballs compared to SJM is much much more higher. Cheers!


(This post was edited by Mark Richman on Oct 8, 2001, 9:00 AM)


David C H Ngie
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Aug 21, 2000, 9:12 AM

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Hi,Mark
I come across a patented spare part for Bioball Trickle filter in Sydney.St George Aquarium,Kogarah.It is Like a Ballbearing "T" connector,it enhance what you have design for the "drill hole pipe"at the the last chamber.The idea is to attach drill hole pipe(with one end corked)to both end of the connector.It work like a propeller when water flows through then carry maximum oxygenated water showering to the bioball below to create a better ecosystem for the bacteria breeding environment.
I have the photo posted to Mr Khoo to help me post to the forum for further study.

Regards.


Khoobg
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Aug 21, 2000, 5:20 PM

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Picture by David.










David C H Ngie
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Aug 23, 2000, 1:12 AM

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Thankyou for Mr Khoo for putting up the Photo,however the filter is not under this topic instead of "Foundation".This the straight flow system that cater for a much slower water cycle proposed by Mr Izeki.


Eric Lim
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Aug 24, 2000, 7:54 PM

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Hi! Mark,

Thanks for all these very informative infor. Really hope to have more people like you & Dr. Conrad around this hobby circle.

My present trinkle tower & filter (1.5ton)had passed the 1 mth. period (still new to tell), with clear water since Hans Ham came to help me built it. In the past, after 3 wks. of water changing - our pond will turn green (can't see the kois). So looks like we'd hit the nail by the head. Only after 2mths. will I considered it successful. Water parameter are all OK. Our stock are considered high - 38pcs. in 4 tons pond + 1.5 tons filter.

Two points you stated I'll like to endose;
1. The drop points are 1 foot away on 2nd & 3rd trays.
2. We used bio-balls.
3. This I think is important - we took the inlet at the last compartment of the filter system.
4. We cut opening to enable foul gas / air to exchange freely.

FYI - Tan Beng Teck had took some photos of this filter system & had suggested to me to write an article on this at Cyberfins.
I'll do it, with support from my good friend Hans. Wink

Rdgs,
Eric
SKC member

(This post was edited by Eric Lim on Dec 8, 2001, 9:00 AM)


Mark
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Aug 26, 2000, 1:58 AM

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More picture bioballs.



(Thanks Mr Khoobg for putting up the picture).

The round bioball on the left cost 40 cents each and the one on the right is 10 cents each.

(This post was edited by Mark Richman on Jan 8, 2002, 9:00 AM)


jtang
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Oct 4, 2000, 10:13 AM

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Does anybody know where I can find a cheap place to purchase bio-ball. I found two places but they want too much for it.


doug
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Oct 15, 2000, 9:48 AM

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I have read with great interest the three long pages of research done on the trickle tower filtration system and are very impressed and appreciative of the information. Would you please clarify or answer the following.
1. When a drip tray is used to distribute the water, what is the relationship between the size and number of holes to the flow rate of water?
2. Twice Mark has mentioned that a slow flow rate is best or at least not detrimental but suggests a rate of 1.5 Ė 2 times the pond volume per hour. To me, this is a fast flow rate when wet systems are often only 0.5 times the pond volume per hour. Am I wrong on this?
3. If the object is to supply as much air into the system as possible why put it in a container? Why not just set up a fountain right in the pond cascading water over bio balls in a perforated tray at itsí base just above the water level of the pond? If the water supply to the fountain was mechanically filtered what would be missing?
4. When the filter size is referred to in tonnage, what is meant? The water is not accumulating in the Ďdryí filter system, so what is being referred to? Is it the potential volume of water the container could hold? Shouldnít filters be rated by the amount of surface area they supply?


------------------


Mark
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Oct 15, 2000, 10:45 PM

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Let me try to answer your questions.

1. When a drip tray is used to distribute the water, what is the relationship between the size and number of holes to the flow rate of water?

First of all, allow me to define the word trickle from the dictrionary as :
1. to issue or fall in drops;
2. to flow in a thin gentle stream;
3. to move or go one by one or little by little;
4. to dissipate slowly.

The efficiency of the system does not solely depend on the no. of holes or the size of the holes appearing on the drip tray or PVC pipes. It does however, depends alot on the the way the water is delivered to the surface of those bioballs. Hence a too slow a flow rate will cause all the water to comes together after passing thro' the drip plates and defeat the whole purpose of using a drip plate. However, if the flow rate is too fast, there will be little time for exposure before the water returns to the pond hence depriving the trickle intake of oxygen. That goes the same with holes. Too small a hole, water will be diff. to pass thro' and too large a hole, it defeats the whole purpose. My consideration will therefore be the *break point or at the balanced point where water drip thro' the holes in the drip plate. In order to do this efficiently, you need to have a valve to control the flow rate and a water level of at least 3 inches or more above the plate.

2. Twice Mark has mentioned that a slow flow rate is best or at least not detrimental but suggests a rate of 1.5 Ė 2 times the pond volume per hour. To me, this is a fast flow rate when wet systems are often only 0.5 times the pond volume per hour. Am I wrong on this?
You can achieve this by either expanding the surface area of the filter and the drip plates or cutting down the flow rate with slower pump.

3. If the object is to supply as much air into the system as possible why put it in a container? Why not just set up a fountain right in the pond cascading water over bio balls in a perforated tray at itsí base just above the water level of the pond? If the water supply to the fountain was mechanically filtered what would be missing?
Water trickling need not confine to only bioballs sitting in a filter tower. High Waterfalls and fountains are another form of trickle system. The whole idea is to exposed the water to as much oxygen as possible before returning them to the pond. Unfortunately not many of us have big area to install these. Noise another consideration as we do not want to disturb our neighbours. Hence trickle tower seems to be the answer and besides its easy to maintain.

4. When the filter size is referred to in tonnage, what is meant? The water is not accumulating in the Ďdryí filter system, so what is being referred to? Is it the potential volume of water the container could hold? Shouldnít filters be rated by the amount of surface area they supply?

Surface area has our main consideration when coming to size of a filter system. And we usually take 30% or more of pond surface area as an indicator. If we calculate the total surface area of the bioballs, we will quickly realised that how small our filter tower is as compared to the normal wet system.

Hope these help.


(This post was edited by Mark Richman on Apr 10, 2001, 9:00 AM)


doug
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Oct 16, 2000, 2:54 PM

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Thanks for getting back to me Mark. I think you hit it on the head when you considered the problem of maintenance with setting up a fountain (not enclosed) as a trickle tower. Keeping leaves and nettles out of the system would be a constant pain.

With regards to your comments on the sizing of the holes verses flow. I agree with your reasoning that the rate of flow that we are trying to achieve is that point where the water breaks the surface tension of the plate and falls cleanly away at each hole. This can be achieved with an oversize pump and control valve but it would be good to refine this somewhat in the face of the initial capital expense of the pump and itís energy consumption. First of all, there must be a minimum size for the holes since we all know that with the growth of any algae a tiny hole is going to fluctuate in size too much to the point of restricting any flow at all.

Generally speaking the following is what I think is needed by the people following this discussion group who are about to build or improve their trickle tower. We need numbers for the following.
1. Hole size in drip pan. There must be an ideal hole size regardless of filter size. I would think the size of the drip onto the bio media would be a constant regardless of the overall size of the filter, for a depth of bio media of 18 inches (a depth which has been referred to as sufficient throughout the discussion).
2. Spacing of the holes This would depend on the bio media but wouldnít very much.
3. Flow rate per hole. From this we could determine the total flow rate to the filter.

Can you help with this info?


Mark
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Oct 17, 2000, 3:13 AM

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Most trickle system are self-made (I think) and comes in various designs. Honestly, I don't have an answer for standard hole. However, I experimented with 1/4 and 3/16 inches dia spaced 1 inches apart and they seems fine with all the pumps.

Hope this help.


FrankChong
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Oct 17, 2000, 9:16 AM

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Doug,

Mark is correct, I have tried using 3/16 inch holes spaced at about one inch square. I obtain good flow over the filter material.

As for the pump size selection. Eventhough there are calculations one can make. I have not used the formulars since I left engineering school 20 years back. Anyway the calculations are only approximations and never right to the dot because of a number of approximations we have to make on the pipe losses. What is most frustrating is, even when one knows exactly the static head and delivery volume required. You cannot find one pump exactly matches your requirement. The pump manufacturers do not even include the pumps performance curve. In most instances it only states the current (electricity) consumption and maximum flow rate. Very little use, one has to extrapolate and make an intelligent guess when you have to deliver the water to certain height.

The most practical approach would be to construct the drip tray. Then using a pail of water to pour over the drip tray and measure the flowrate. You could get an idea of the flowrate required.

There is no magic number of flowrate for trickle tower to work. Certainly one would want to avoid a gush of water that could flush out all the solid waste. On the other hand you want to have enough flowrate so that sufficient volume of water could be treated over 24 hour period, this could involve multiple units of trickle filter. This flowrate is dependent on whether the trickle filter is the only filtration system or they are supplementary filter working in conjunction with other filtration systems.

If you are feeling more confused, it is a good sign. You are on the right track. Do ask more the haze would clear.


doug
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Oct 17, 2000, 8:57 PM

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The suggestion of building the drip tray and testing the flow rate is a good idea. I think Iíll start with 3/16 holes at 1 inch spacing like you suggest. 3/16 seems big enough not to get plugged and not too large to cause excessive flow onto the biomaterial. Iíll experiment with 1 sq ft. and see how much water flows through per hour. Iíll then need to decide on the flow rate and then I can calculate the area Iíll need in the drip tray. Question. The pond will hold 2000 gallons. How much water should pass through the trickle tower (not the pump rate) per hour. The only other filter will be a mechanical filter in line with the trickle tower. Please donít write back and ask me how many pounds of fish Iíll have in the pond because I donít know. So far, if I add up the weight of all my fish they wonít tip the scale at 2 lbs. Iím obviously knew at this but have been warned that I should think big when it comes to the filter because who knows how many pounds of fish will depend on it in a few years. What I can tell you, is that Iíll have 720 scrub pads (about 4.5 cu. ft) for the biomaterial. I know, bio balls are best but economics took precedence on this one.
Iíll post the flow rate per hour for 1 sq. ft. drip tray with 3/16 holes at 1 inch spacing with a 3Ē head when I have the answer.


FrankChong
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Oct 18, 2000, 9:39 AM

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DOUG,

The size of filter as I learnt from this site is 30% of pond area. No reason to dispute this rule of thumb as it has been tested by more experience ponder. My personal thought is, size alone do not determine the effectiveness of filtration. More crucial aspect is what you use as filter media. I am currently writing an article on this aspect where I will explain in greater detail.

In my opinion 4.5 cu ft of filter media is way too small. Based on the rule of thumb total volume of filter should be 600 gallon, 30% of pond size. It is possible to reduce the filter size provided you make it up with more frequent maintenance.

My thought is :

1) Bacteria do not require a filter media to roost and process waste. The biological process goes on with or without the filter media (assuming the pond water is mature). Think about it and let me have your thought on this. Why then we put in filter media ?

2) We put in filter media solely for the purpose of trapping solid waste, so it would not cloud the water. So that you and me can appreciate our koi.

3) If we could effectively trap all the waste and flush it out in good time. Why do we need the rest of filter material for ?

Back to your filter design. I am not very sure whether the scrub material you use is same as what I have here. But I can be very sure bio ball is definitely not suitable as your mechanical filter media. Not unless you have 600 gallons of them. This is because the filterbility (the ability to filter) of bio ball is very low.

The logic is, supposing you settle for a 300 gallon filter material and you need to trap 150 gm of waste from your koi. Japanese fibre matt would probably be sufficient. However, if you intend to use only 100 gallon of filter material to trap the same amount of waste. Bio ball or Japanese matting would not do the job, they are just too porous. There is no magic here, if you intend to trap the same amount of waste with less filter media, you have to use more dense material. The other effect of trapping waste with reduced filter material would obviously cause the filter to choke up much faster. This you could overcome with more frequent flushing.

The only way for 4.5 cu ft of filter material to work for a 2000 gallon pond is to use sand filter with daily backwash routine. Plus the trickle tower to take care of whatever debris left. If you opt for sand filter make sure a bigger grain size of 2 to 3 mm is use. The fish waste is likely to cake up the sand if the grain size is small.

In my case the main filter is about 15% of the pond volume. My trickle tower is 1000 litre stainless steel water storage tank of five feet high. About 30% percent of water from the main filter is fed to the trickle tower.

I am now working on a more effect way of trapping the solids before it goes to my in ground main filter. Too labour intensive to clean out in ground filter.


dttk
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Oct 18, 2000, 7:13 PM

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Dear Frank, I hope I'm not hearing wrong or getting the wrong impression but as far as I know, it is a well known fact that for effective filtration we need to achieve a bio-media surface area of 30% of the pond surface area. This does not include mechanical filtration. The biological filter media were meant to support the growth and maintenance of denitrifying bacteria rather than mechanically filtering water. Of course the other surfaces of the pond in contact with water will also support some bacteria but this is way too little to be able to effectively remove ammonia. Similarly the trickle tower filter media should be used as a biological media rather than for mechanical filtration. However I do agree with your points on mechanical filtration. That's the reason why hobbyist till today still strife to create an effective mechanical filtration system that removes all suspended wastes so that only clear water goes thru for the biological filtration process.


Mark
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Oct 19, 2000, 2:30 AM

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In all wet/mechanical system, please remember to consider all the surface area of a f/media used within a chamber. For example, if the f/media used is 2 x 2 feet we should have 8 sq ft.(each side is 4 sq ft) of surface area for good bact. to grow. And if we use 2 of these, the total surface should therefore be 16 sq ft. Generally most of us will consider only the top side (ie 2x2=4sq ft) of the f/media and we lay them horizontally. What if we lay them vertically? Will it change your understanding to the surface area? Do we get a total surface area of 8 sq ft per f/media instead?

Please give some thoughts to the vertical arrangement. However if you can, please consider a trickle system instead of a wet/mechanical filter.


FrankChong
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Oct 19, 2000, 5:08 AM

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DTTK,

You are right, most of the recommendations for filter size is filter material surface area = 30% pond area. Some recommend filter size = 30% pond area.

I have written an article in microsoft word format, had requested webmaster to post it for me. Let me have your thoughts after reading it.


doug
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Oct 19, 2000, 7:50 PM

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Mark. From the drawing at the beginning of this discussion I assume you recommend a series of filter mats for a mechanical filter before the trickle tower. Iím sure we all agree that mechanical filtration is nesesary to keep the debris out of the bio filter, and I like your design but would appreciate your comments on settling tanks. I reason that we want to remove the debris from the whole water system and not just move it from the pond to another tank but still in the same water system, which is what happens in a settling tank. At least with the filter mats weíre forced to clean them. Do you agree?


dttk
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Oct 19, 2000, 7:57 PM

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Dear Frank, after reading your earlier posting(18-10-2000)again, I realise I may have missed the point you were trying to make. I quote, "Bacteria do not require a filter media to roost and process waste. The biological process goes on with or without the filter media (assuming the pond water is mature)". Were you implying that the concentration of bacteria in mature pond water is sufficient to biologically convert ammonia to nitrites to nitrates? I doubt even mature pond water without a filter has enough bacteria to process the ammonia unless the pond is large enough and the number of koi very few, like what you find in nature. But this is not practical in real life. Bio-media are used to support enormous colonies of bacteria in a small, undisturbed enclosure like the filter. An interesting topic was discussed sometime ago about whether the brownish-grey substance we find on the surface of matured bio-media are actually made up of bacterial colonies. Will be looking forward to read your article. Cheers!


Ben
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Oct 19, 2000, 8:30 PM

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Hi doug,

A good settlement chamber must have opening at the bottom to flush out the trapped waste every few days. I personally feel that green matting is not a good material for the settlement chamber as all waste trap by the matting will be stuck within the matting and cleaning is very difficult and time consuming. Carlnet on the other hand will be more suitable as the fish waste hitting the net likely to settle to the bottom of the settling tank for flushing out. Cleaning of the carlnet is also so much easier.

A proper settlement chamber with flushing facility will make pond maintenance an easy job and allow you to have more time enjoying your koi.


FrankChong
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Oct 20, 2000, 6:21 AM

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Oops, it looks like our webmaster may have the same problem in posting a message in word format. Give him a bit more time. My rational for concluding that biological process goes on with or without filter material is well illustrated.

To doug, Ben is right, you must have a discharge outlet at the bottom of settling chamber for you to flush out waste frequently.


Mark
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Oct 20, 2000, 7:55 AM

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In the first drawing, it was original a wet system having the last chamber modified to a trickle chamber. The first chamber was filled with rolls of settlement brush standing vertically to trap the heavy waste. Although you can also use f/mats but I think its an overkill. If you see my later part of the drawing whereby the whole filter box is converted to full trickle system, I raised the outflow outlet by 6 inches from the bottom and I do away with the foam media which was originally used to trap the heavy waste before water falling on the bioballs. These heavy waste will settled at the bottom of the chamber which I back flush them away every 2 to 3 days. You will be amazed how little maintenance it can be as compared to the wet system.

Hope this help.


Khoobg
Webmaster


Oct 20, 2000, 5:32 PM

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Hi Frank,

I am still searching for your email to me. Please email again to hiley@po.jaring.my just incase I can't find it. Thanks



FrankChong
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Oct 21, 2000, 1:36 AM

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Hi Khoobg,

First article posted this morning, second article, continuation of first posted just now to your email hiley@po.jaring.my.

Cheers


Khoobg
Webmaster


Oct 21, 2000, 2:29 AM

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Hi Frank and all, Frank's article is now at http://www.koi.com.my/frank.html . Please read through and tell us what is your opinion.

A link to the article will be created from the main page of the web site for all to read through and comment !


dttk
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Oct 21, 2000, 8:36 PM

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Hi everybody, I've read Frank's article and here are some points that I would like to make. Two types of bacteria exist in a mature pond filtration system, aerobic and anaerobic. The settlement or first chamber would probably support more anaerobic bacteria which breaks down large solid wastes to finer particles(sludge) which are harmless. In the process hydrogen sulphide gas is released. People staying around the vicinity of oxidation ponds do experience such a problem when the wind carries H2S towards their direction. So the fresh waste which settled has been 'eaten' by bacteria. Only the chemical impurities are left to be processed. Koi also excrete urine which has ammonia. Infact the amount of urine excreted maybe more than the amount of faeces excreted since the latter depends on the amount of food consumed. Ammonia is processed by aerobic bacteria in the aerated chambers. Aerobic bacteria will concentrate in filter media and process ammonia into nitrite and nitrate. I agree with Frank that even the bio-media performs some degree of mechanical filtration. But their main function is to process ammonia. The sewage system is to cater for huge amounts of wastes unlike the filter system for a koi pond. Like I mentioned before, space and affordability are important factors. Biological filter media are necessary in a koi pond filtration system. If you remove it from the filter, keeping the other factors constant, ammonia level in water will increase. Any comments?


FrankChong
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Oct 22, 2000, 3:05 AM

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Hi Dttk,

The aerobic bacteria requires oxygen to survive and process waste. When dissolved oxygen is depleted the aerobic bacteria will die off. Another strain of bacteria the anaerobic bacteria which feeds off nitrogen will take over the anaerobic process.

I believe that aerobic bacteria will be present in all the chambers as long as there are food and oxygen present. Hope is read it right.


dttk
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Oct 22, 2000, 8:26 PM

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Hi Frank, you're right about the aerobic bacteria dying off when O2 is depleted. That's the reason why bio-media should be aerated to support more aerobic bacteria. We should probably look at waste processing in a koi pond filter at 2 levels. First one being solid waste processing and second one being liquid waste processing. The two processes usually occur at the same time. Aerobic bacteria do breakdown solid and liquid waste. About aerobic bacteria not being able to latch-on to bio-media, we have to ask the experts like people who have actually bothered to experiment with it. Any volunteers? Will be looking forward to read your other articles. Happy koi keeping.


doug
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Oct 23, 2000, 8:40 PM

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Frank. I have also had some experience with sewage systems and think that the info may be useful in designing filter systems for our ponds. I should start by saying that my experience is in a much cooler climate, Western Canada. Your description of a septic tank is the same as ours but your description of a sewage treatment plant is somewhat different. Here a treatment plant usually exists of big discs rotating half in and half out of the water. The idea is that the bacteria grow on these discs and rotating or cycling them in and out of the sewage keeps them aerated. My own perspective on the trickle tower is that what they accomplish, is adding air to the system. Iím not sure if I agree with your logic that the bacteria don't need filter media (bio balls, scrubbies etc.) to grow on. Itís true that the bacteria grow on the waste itself but it seems to me that if we expect the bacteria to breakdown the waste completely we need additional surface area for them to grow. It would be interesting to pump emulsified waste through a chamber that was fully saturated with air and see what would happen to the ammonia. I have recently discovered that a garden soaker hose makes a great aerator. The bottom of a chamber completely covered by a coil of soaker hose with air pumped into it might make a very effective bio filter and may be enhanced with a loose supply of bio ball or scrubbies bouncing around in the bubbles.


FrankChong
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Oct 24, 2000, 5:43 AM

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doug,

Your experiment should tell us something. Keep us posted with your result.


doug
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Oct 25, 2000, 5:22 PM

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I"m not in a position to try what I suggested above at this time. I did how ever do a little experimenting that you may find interesting. I determined that a 1/8" hole with a 1/2" head of water discharges 1.80 US gallons per hour. This is usefull in determining the relationship between the pump discharge rate and the size of the drip tray in the trickle tower. At this rate the water flowed smoothly from the hole.


ngtpeng
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Dec 8, 2000, 11:32 PM

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Where can I buy the brushes in Singapore?


Ben
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Dec 9, 2000, 12:13 AM

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Brushes are commonly used in pond. Should be able to get it in most koi shop


gary
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Feb 27, 2001, 3:21 PM

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can anyboady please tell me if a trikle filter would help with blanket weed by lowering nitrate levels etc.nice clear water just loads of weed.


Ben
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Feb 27, 2001, 5:26 PM

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Trickle filter will reduce the nitrate content in your pond water very effectively and this effect to reduce the possibility of outbreak of algae and other plant that depends on nitrate to grow very fast.


Norbert Somlai
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Oct 28, 2001, 1:36 AM

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Hello,

Reading through this topic, I'm quite convinced about building a trickle filter. However, in my country it should be shut off for the winter if I don't want to see my entire pond in the form of a nice big iceberg. Smile

A question: what will happen to my plants in a zero-nitrate environment?

Norbert


Mark
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Oct 28, 2001, 6:22 AM

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In this region, many of us do not have the luxury to build big ponds in expensive lands. We therefore built small concrete ones or install ready made small fibreglass tanks. In view of the constraint, there is no or little room left for plants. So installing a trickle tower in such situation is the most logical way to help us to get rid of the nitrates.


Milky
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Nov 5, 2001, 9:49 AM

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guys,

Trickle filter will never reduce nitrate. it can ONLY reduce NH4 and NO2. and it does it very well. I am a salt water reef tank keeper, and a wet/dry filter is known as a "Nitrate factory" in the reef tank hobby.

------------------
Milky


SMW1
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Nov 6, 2001, 5:25 AM

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Hi Milky,
You say that a trickle tower does not reduce nitrites, how then have a number of us who have recently installed a trickle tower seen rapid changes in our nitrate levels ?

(This post was edited by SMW1 on May 11, 2001, 9:00 AM)


Milky
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Nov 6, 2001, 7:18 AM

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From my understanding. Denitrification process can only take place in a regions where there is a low oxygen concentration. The bacteria living there have to be able to use an alternative source of oxygen for oxygen gas, O2, that aeorobic bacteria typically use. What the anaerobic bacteria typically use is the nitrate molecule, NO3-. As a result the nitrate is transformed to nitrous oxide, NO, and then nitrogen, N2.

There is a equipment call "nitrate filter" which can really remove NO3. it works just like a we/dry but it is a closed system. which mean there is no oxygen present.
below link will explain it better
http://www.dupla.com/e033.htm

But a wet/dry filter can only held aeorobic bacteria, as the filter is full of oxygen.

Actually i am quite surprize that u guys' NO3 level reduced after using Wet/dry. Because for reefer, we have to keep our NO3 below 20ppm. that's why we throw away the wet/dry but use something else instead.

u all must have done something wonderful to reduce that NO3....??????????



------------------
Milky


Khoobg
Webmaster


Nov 11, 2001, 5:11 PM

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The actual reason why Trickle filter reduce Nitrate is rarely understood but the fact is it actually reduce nitrate substantially. Many of us have used it for a number of years and are extremely happy with it. While we may not be able to understand why, by measuring and monitoring the Nitrate level before and after installation will be able to tell the effectiveness of the trickle tower.


SMW1
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Nov 13, 2001, 6:54 AM

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I totally agree.

I used to have very high nitrite and nitrate levels and tried various procedures to bring the levels down. although some of them were effective, they were not long term.

My trickle tower, is run from a seperate small pump (300 gal per hour). The outlet from my tower is big enough to compensate for the inlet. so the flocor in my tower is never submerged in water but is always wet.

My Nitrate and Nitrite levels are now both 0 and have been for some time.

Stuart


Joshua Lee
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Nov 13, 2001, 7:20 PM

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Dear Milky

Anthony Goh took your sizzling question to Cyberfins and was answered by Doc Conrad, a scientist and trickle filter enthusiast. If you want to hop over for a look-see, the link is here:

http://www.cyberfins.net/...um6/HTML/000488.html


Cheers
Smile
Josh


Milky
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Nov 15, 2001, 4:44 AM

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Josh,

thanks.. the info is very good!!
really amazing

Thanks again..

Now, i learn something new

------------------
Milky


crazoo
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Nov 18, 2001, 9:10 AM

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what is bio-balls and how does it looks like because all these 3 years with my pond i havent heard about it..

(This post was edited by ahmad on Jun 11, 2002, 9:00 AM)


SMW1
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Nov 19, 2001, 9:35 AM

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hi Ahmad,
Bio balls are a form of flocor media. They come in many forms. Any flocor should have small groves or gaps for bacteria to breed and grow. These bacteria are used to keep the levels of Nitrite, Nitrate and ammonia to a minimum.

Stuart


crazoo
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Nov 19, 2001, 10:32 AM

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Thanks for the bio-balls. Please advice on this, i had my pond build by someone i think has less experience. I have no bottom drains for my filter!!(will this have any bad effects?), and only use green matting. I used to have corals but since i`m having tough times maintaining them i changed to green mattings. I modified the filter and now it is clear. But i knew nothing if it is safe for my koi`s. the filter have 4 chamber. first is the settlement chamber, second and third is green mattings and 4th the pump. thanks.

p/s:after reading advices on this site i felt like creating a whole new pond. Too bad i did not found this site earlier.. Smile

(This post was edited by ahmad on Jul 11, 2002, 9:00 AM)


dttk
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Nov 19, 2001, 5:54 PM

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Hi Ahmad, how long have you been keeping koi in this pond? How big is the pond and filter? How are you removing waste from the floor of the pond so far? How do you clean the filter so far? Are the koi well and what are the water parameters(ammonia/nitrites, nitrates, pH, etc)? Sorry for all these questions. Smile Just like to know more about your koi and pond. Smile


SMW1
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Nov 20, 2001, 1:55 AM

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hi ahmad,
As dttk suggests it would be benificial for us to have your water paramaters, you can but these test kits from any koi shop.

The main ones you need to worry about to start are Ammonia , Nitrate, Nitrite and PH. Do worry too much about the salt, copper and KH testers at present.

Do you not have any Brushes in your Filter ?.
Also you could replace one of the matting chambers with bio balls, this will have a little bit of a better effect, however there is nothing wrong with the Japenese matting.

It may be worth creating a new Topic for this under "pond & filter construction", don't worry, we'll find it.

Stuart


crazoo
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Nov 20, 2001, 2:44 AM

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Hi again, thanks for the interest on my pond. Actually i have been on the wrong side of the road all along. The pond size is if i am not mistaken around 800 gal(i am not sure, i used to just roughly guess, sounds uncaring rite? but i never knew all these things and can say that i am a junior coz of my age?;18). Let me get a more accurate number by this wednesday. I have been keeping koi in this pond since it was build, but i dont think it is build suitable for koi. How i remove the dirt?(manually la of course)i`ve been thinking of getting a vacuum but could not find a good one, any one knows any shop near klang or damansara that sells one? the filter? 3 ft * 7 ft * depth??. after changing to green mattings, cleaning and maintaining the filters are quite easy. based on what i saw the koi`s are healthy and aggressive. except that 2 of them (around 12-14cm) will scratch their bodies(i dont know how to describe it) to the ponds wall. Is that normal or they got some parasites on them or something? about the water parameters honestly saying i never have checked before and dont even know it is necessary until i did a research on the net early october this year.i will go get a test kit by this week. till then here is another question, about the aeration of the pond. is it a must, what does it do/help the koi`s, i dont use it and my koi looks fine(looks only, i dont know how they feel) and without an aeration pump will it distress the fishes?

p/s: i felt so bad talking about my pond since i knew all these things, felt as if i wasn`t doing enough for my koi`s. i can say it is not properly set up in terms of water quality,filter,pond condition and so on. thanks so much and please advice..
one more thing, now i knew why my uncle`s kohaku died(not one but three), his pond is also poorly maintained. I guess he never checks the water parameters as well. Shame on him coz having a swimming pool he should have the experience and knowledge of it. Smile


SMW1
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Nov 21, 2001, 2:44 AM

Post #119 of 312 (129330 views)
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Hi Ahmad,
The koi's with scratch their bodies or "flash" as we call it. Due to 2 things either your PH level is too high, too low or unstable. Or the pond may have some parasites. Once you check your PH, Ammonia, Nitrate and Nitrite levels we can either confirm or digard this possibility. The other factor will be flukes in your pond. These are a form of parasite. They are like nits in humans which wedge themselves under the scales of the koi. The fish Flash to scratch themselves, just like we do when we have an itch.
If your PH is stable between 7.0 and 8.5. Then you coul dadd a 0.3% salt mix to get rid of the parasites. 1kg of salt (pond salt) added to 1000 liters of water will make a 0.1 % salt resolution, so you will need 3Kg of salt per 1000 liters (sounds allot Iknow). After a week do 2 x 40% water changes (remeber to add the anti chlorine solution first).

As for aeration, do you have a waterfall coming back from your filter. I'm just trying to find out how much oxygen is getting into the water. An air blowing is always a good idea, an would reccommend purchasing one of these anyway.

Staurt.


crazoo
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Nov 21, 2001, 9:46 AM

Post #120 of 312 (129330 views)
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Hello again, im compressing data to my brain as i have a test this friday. Do you have a picture of brushes?

i dont have a waterfall but have something that works like it, used to have waterfall but since it dried a lot of water because of its poor placement, i installed a pvc on one side of the wall and make a lot of holes. so walla there goes my waterfall. it doesnot look nice but my koi`s love it , so am i.

as for my 4th chamber i can see that i still have some dirt that pass through my bio-filter any advice why that happen?. And is horizontal ok for the green mattings. I am asking because my filter is different from the one i used to see a lot here in the forum and other sites on the net. Mine is just a straight left to right without going through down-up thingy. i was thinking of changing it to vertical. By the way i am at home today and tomorrow so i will try to calculate the water ie how many gallons. 1 ton is how many gallon? i will also buy a test-kit tomorrow.

one more thing, as all my japaneese stock have died (this sad tragedy happens when this one day someone so st*up*d and go poison my pond(actually for the grass). i got another small pond which i put in tilapias, they dont have a filter and dont need one as i dont see any problem for them (also got poisoned before). just change the water weekly.and now i only had koi`s that cost as much as rm50 (6-12 inches) i dont think they are of good qualities. i think i have 2-3 koi`s that is similar to kohaku but its not pure red, its orangish to red. any idea?

there is one more thing, my father is a f.e, so if he would want to buy koi`s directly from japan and ships here would any body want to 'pesan'? as if we were to brought in more the prices will go down. if there is a lot of ppl who wants to buy i would try ask him about it.

p/s: dont put so high hopes because i would want my pond to be in good condition before i bought any of the good and colourful koi`s.Just saying that it is possible and much cheaper coz my father`s friend(pilot) used to do it...

by the way thanks for the advice.. Smile


SMW1
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Nov 22, 2001, 1:04 AM

Post #121 of 312 (129331 views)
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Hi again,
If your pond runs from left to right ( >>>> ). Your matting should be placed against the flow of the water ( | | ). i.e.


>>>>>@@>>>>>@@>>>>@@>>>>>@@>>>>
>>>>>@@>>>>>@@>>>>@@>>>>>@@>>>>
>>>>>@@>>>>>@@>>>>@@>>>>>@@>>>>
>>>>>@@>>>>>@@>>>>@@>>>>>@@>>>>

Sorry about the poor quality of the diagram. I was never any good at art.

[biggrin]

Stuart


crazoo
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Nov 22, 2001, 3:00 AM

Post #122 of 312 (129331 views)
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i will be testing the water before midnight today,

so now i have bio-ball and zeolite. which chamber is the best place to put it ?
and how long will the zeolite works? recharge it with the normal salt or have to buy special salt ? how many salt?

thanks


crazoo
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Nov 22, 2001, 9:18 AM

Post #123 of 312 (129331 views)
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here is my water parameter..
ph 7.6
kh 5

but i am concern of the present of high ammonium level.

i cant read it properly but knew that it is more than 6
how to reduce it?

and can anyone help me build an external trickle filter. what to use? drums?

(This post was edited by ahmad on Oct 11, 2002, 9:00 AM)


SMW1
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Nov 23, 2001, 3:00 AM

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Hi Ahmad,

I can't really help you with zeolite as I have never used this. Maybe one of the other guys can give you the answers you need here.

As for your Ammonia level. Are you sure it's 6 ?. Thats really high. You need to get this down real quick with a 50% water change. Remeber to add the anti chlorine solution first. Can you double check the ammonia reading again. It's very rare that you would have an ammonia of 6 but nitrites and Nitrates of 0.

Stuart


crazoo
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Nov 23, 2001, 11:20 AM

Post #125 of 312 (129331 views)
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stuart, i would change the water tomorrow,

i have put in the salt. IF i change 50% of the water would the salt be reduced? should i add more salt? how often do i put in the salt? or just once?

thank u


dttk
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Nov 23, 2001, 6:04 PM

Post #126 of 312 (125928 views)
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Hi Ahmad, suspect that your ammonia readings are not correct. Anyway how's the condition of the koi? Are they showing clamped fins or behaving abnormally. Any reddish streaks on their body? If not, please recheck your ammonia level and make sure that the test kit is not expired. In the meantime, don't feed the koi until we can confirm the ammonia level. Change half the water as mentioned. Remember to dechlorinate the tap water. Yes, you'll have to top up the salt by 50% if you change half the water each time. No need to add zeolite now since you're using salt. Otherwise more ammonia will be released back into the water! Good luck!


johnson lee
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Nov 23, 2001, 11:20 PM

Post #127 of 312 (125928 views)
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Hi Ahmad

Welcome to the Forum! I am not sure the ammonia reading is correct because a reading of 6 would have killed all your fishes by now.

The fishes that flash (rub against the base of the pond) are not happy with the water condition. If you need any help, I too live in Klang. You can let me know where exactly you live and I will go over and see what I can do.

My contact no. is 012-2277970. In the meantime, as advised, change about 50% of your water and add salt to 0.3%. Stop feeding until water readings are normal.

Rgds
Johnson


crazoo
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Nov 24, 2001, 1:44 PM

Post #128 of 312 (125928 views)
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yes it is quite strange but i wonder myself because when i touch the water by hand after the test it felt very strange and after a while it will start getting itchy very fast unless i wash with a lot of water.i even got an infection on my hand but got it cured. but yesterday i change half the filter, put in zeolite,change 50% of the water and put in salt. so i need to take out the zeolite? will do it today. now it is quite ok to touch the water, i dont know if the tester is expired. will try to test again today. get back to you guys tomorrow. by the way the fishes is more relaxed now every time i come and yes i had stopped feeding them as i thought it would be better to make sure everything is ok first and minimize the ammonia.thanks a lot.


SMW1
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Nov 25, 2001, 2:50 AM

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Hi ahmad,
Hi levels of Ammonia will not cause irratation to the skin (humans)unless the Ammonia level is over 50 in which it will be almost in a solid form. The only element that will cause you to itch is either very high of very low PH. Even then it is very rare.

What do you mean by "when I touch the water it feels funny" ?. somethings not adding up here. Did you retest your water paramaters ?

Stuart


crazoo
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Nov 25, 2001, 10:42 AM

Post #130 of 312 (125928 views)
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i retest the water parameter today, and change 50% again, add the salt and its great. and yes the ammonia tester is expired. I was so shocked that in this whole klang there is none that sell ammonia tester, know what they say, it is not important and ppl rarely buy it plus chlorine tester is enough.. will wait till i get back to damansara in monday to buy it.
the only problem left now is i can see a lot of substances in the water, i change 50% of the water for 3 days already, cant see any changes. I also put in zeolite coz some say the zeolite ties the substances to the ground. well i am still finding the answer and any advice would be great.

thanks now my water is safe for my koi`s.


dttk
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Nov 25, 2001, 6:48 PM

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Hi Ahmad, if the koi are behaving normally, them chances are the ammonia level is ok. However do get a proper one as soon as possible. Zeolite binds ammonia but releases it back into water when salt is present. So please don't add zeolite now. The water will clear up soon. Continue zero feeding and maintain salt concentration at 0.3%. Please post your ammonia readings soon.


crazoo
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Nov 27, 2001, 9:13 AM

Post #132 of 312 (125928 views)
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sadly as i was just wanted to buy the ammonium tester today, i received the sad news that all my koi`s died. Probably caused by too much chlorine as someone left the tabwater on dont know for how long. Symptoms are belly,finn,are whittish and skins dropping off, with eyes greyish. I cried,but i wont stop here. I will continue to finish my trickle tower and with only a fish left. there is one shop in taman tun, i think the name is 'quest aquatic' damansara kim, is it good? quoted me a chagoi of 7-8 inch for 120. havent seen it yet though.

finally, please correct me if i am wrong, my pond size is 6ft*5ft*2.5 = 1.6 tonne , 360 gallon?


i sketch a new pond hoping to get through with it, space no problem and money also same, but then my father wakes me up from my dream. he`s not even prepared to let it be 1 metre deep. I will always keep trying how ever but surely wont get the recommended 5-6ft deep.

is my koi`s died because of too much chlorine? or if i am not sure should i clean through my pond and start all over again my hard work developing the nice bio-filter?

this forum really change my whole view of having a pond and fishes.

(This post was edited by ahmad on Mar 11, 2003, 9:00 AM)


TonyG
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Nov 27, 2001, 5:09 PM

Post #133 of 312 (125928 views)
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Hi Ahmad

I really feel for you when i read that all your kois died, save for one. It happens to me some time back when my tank full of goldfishes (about 20 of them) died overnight. I still feel sad when i think of the incident. Nevertheless, pick up from where you are now, learn from your mistake and look forward. Have a never say died attitude and you will be there. You are in, what we call 'pay school fees' period.

Ok, the volume of your pond is 75 cubic ft, which equal to 561 gallons. Having 5' to 6' deep pond is recommended if you want to have 'Jumbo', otherwise, 2.5' is Ok, you can rear beautiful kois is this pond too.

As for now, my advise is get your water condition correct first before you start buying new kois. Use you current koi as a 'tester' fish. Complete your TT and get all the necessary test kit. Check your water regularly (2 days once) and when you get a constantly good readings for about a week, you may start to hunt for kois. By the time you complete quarantine those kois, your pond is in the condition to have them. However, please do not add too many kois at one go, your filter may not accept it, my advise is 2 kois per fortnight.

Lastly, yes, i think your kois may died due to chlorine, as cholrine content in Malaysia tapwater is quite high (for koi that is). So take this opportunity to educate whoever may be concerned. (steady lah guru [biggrin])

Good Luck and I'm sure you will have a very beautiful pond with much admired living jewel. (Jealous...... [biggrin])

Cheers

Tony


Joshua Lee
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Nov 27, 2001, 6:02 PM

Post #134 of 312 (125928 views)
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Dear Ahmad

Power Rangers and Koi Keepers have one thing in common - they never give up. So, don't lose heart. Like Tony, I have lost lots of beautiful goldfish before. Happened when I was outstation and there was a power failure. Also said sayonara to 7 lovely kois when the pond dried out through an accident, so I know how you feel.

You have a good sized pond. Tony's right. Your pond is 75 cu. ft = 561 gallons which is 2,123 litres (2.1 tons). To get in imperial gallons just divide by 1.2 and you get 465 imperial gallons. ( 1 cu. meter = 35.3 cu. ft)

All the best in constructing your new pond. Hee Hee. Most of us have big problem with small space and small money. It's great to meet a comrade who has no problem with either of these..

Cheers...

Smile

Josh



dttk
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Nov 27, 2001, 7:08 PM

Post #135 of 312 (125928 views)
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Hi Ahmad, like the others, I'm sorry to hear abt your koi. Learn to keep good water and your koi will keep themselves well. Smile As suggested, get all the necessary water test kits. Don't be in a hurry to add more koi now. Take care of one thing at a time. Good luck!


crazoo
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Nov 28, 2001, 1:18 AM

Post #136 of 312 (125928 views)
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thanks for all your concerns and it is really helpful. at least the one that did not die is one of my favourites even though very small coz it wont go with the crowd. it would go by itself and will eat by itself eventhough no body is up yet, that is brave. good to hear from the seefu`s.

by the time my pond stabilizes, other than quest aquatic in taman tun, where else do you recommend to get koi`s,perhaps phone number would be good way to start my search. i would first prefer chagoi to be my ponds charming fish.
and size around 6inch to 8 inch.

ok, about my trickle filter, can i just put in all bioballs without any matts? because i think this is just to give more O2 and bring down all the nh`s ? its like an external helper beside my current biofilter? and the quest aquatic adviced me not to buy an air pump ? should i or should i not buy a pump. for aeration information my pond is installed with pvc on half of it with a lot of holes so when pump through it would create a lot of bubbles. but throughout the forum i heard that it is best to supply air to the filter? please advice ..

p/s: to prevent the tragedy happening again i had banned anyone using water tabs 5 meter from my pond. by the way johnson, i live in sungai udang.

(This post was edited by ahmad on Mar 11, 2003, 9:00 AM)


TonyG
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Nov 28, 2001, 4:21 PM

Post #137 of 312 (125928 views)
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Hi Ahmad

TT should'nt retain any water, which it why it is also known as wet/dry filter. The outlet should be at least 2 times bigger then the inlet, this way water will not retain in it. So in this sense, you do not need a air pump in it. Bioball is fine for TT media.

Tony


dttk
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Nov 28, 2001, 5:28 PM

Post #138 of 312 (125928 views)
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Yes Ahmad, bioballs alone is sufficient for a TT, you don't need mats. The air pump is usually required for a wet or submerged filtration system only.


johnson lee
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Nov 28, 2001, 6:56 PM

Post #139 of 312 (125928 views)
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Hi Ahmad

So sorry to hear about your kois. Frown But as the rest of the guys have said, do not give up this wonderful hobby over this incident.

I would like to assure you that this happens to most if not all of us when we started out with keeping kois. I, too have lost some beautiful kois during the learning process and they were painful experiences.

But we all learn from our 'mistakes' and move on and try to become better 'parents' to our beloved kois. You have also come to the right place to learn the basic tenets of koi-keeping and we will help you as much as we possibly can to ensure that you have a better understanding of the basics such as maintaining good water, testing of the water parameters (pH, ammonia, nitrites, KH, nitrates etc), building an adequate filter to meet the needs of your pond, building a trickle tower filter to eliminate the nasty threesome, treating diseased kois, medication etc. etc.

I do not want to repeat what has been mentioned by the rest as they are sound advice. Follow the advice and you will be OK for a good new start. Smile

All the best to you in your koi-keeping endeavours!

Rgds
Johnson

PS. As mentioned, I too, live in Klang (near Bandar Baru Klang) so if you want, I can drop by and pay you a visit. Just give me your full address and perhaps with a bit of direction and I should be able to locate your house. I am free this Sunday afternoon, so give me a call at 012-2277 970 and I will be more than glad to meet up with you. Smile


crazoo
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Nov 28, 2001, 8:20 PM

Post #140 of 312 (125928 views)
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sorry to have confused you all, what i meant by the air pump is for my bio-filter and main pond ,, not the t.t, i am aware that the slow the flow the better for the t.t.
so for my pond and my bio-filter do i need to have an air pump.
by the way i am testing a smaller version of t.t with 50 bio-balls today. using a pvc sized 10inch dia. minimum 18 for the bioballs and probably 3ft before the bioballs is empty..

johnson, am i right? i will get back to you about this sunday. and u have told me that u lived in klang before, that is why i mention again that i am from klang.

here is my add:
489 a jln sungai udang, 41250 klang.

for details on how to go to my house please email me. Smile

thanks again,

p/s:but where to start finding a chagoi? somebody are yet to answer me that.


johnson lee
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Nov 28, 2001, 10:30 PM

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Hi Ahmad

You can find some good koi dealers by looking up this website's homepage under Koi Dealers.

Some of the ones I always go to include Kohaku Koi Centre, UCP Aquafarm and Zen. You can visit them and enlist their help to get your chagoi! Smile

Anyway, I think using so few bio-balls for your TT may not be sufficient for an effective TT filter. I consider my TT filter rather small for my pond size and that uses about 300 bio-balls!!

So if you want an effective TT, you need to build a bigger one compared to what you have in mind.

It is good to have an airpump for the main pond and one for the filter. Good aeration helps the good bacteria to breed more rapidly and high levels of dissolved oxygen is essential for the well-being of your kois.

All the best!

Rgds
Johnson

PS. Thanks for the address but you did not give me your e-mail address for me to obtain the directions and the landmarks.

(This post was edited by jtklee on Apr 11, 2003, 9:00 AM)


crazoo
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Nov 29, 2001, 9:35 AM

Post #142 of 312 (125928 views)
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as i have said, it was only for testing but i didnt bought the pvc pipe today anyway so maybe i will go straight for the real one of maybe 300-500 pieces of BB.
by the way johnson, how big is your t.t? if u are using a pvc. and how do u connect outlet to pond?

here is my email, crazoo007@yahoo.com.



johnson lee
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Nov 29, 2001, 7:10 PM

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Hi Ahmad

Thanks for the e-mail. Will contact you ASAP. Sorry to inform you that I am not able to visit you this weekend due to some pressing matters. Will make a mental note to do so next week. Wink

My TT filter is about 4' in height and I think it is still insufficient. What I did was installing a small pump in the last chamber of my filter and pump the water onto a tray filled with holes. Below that, I stacked 5 plastic trays filled with bio-balls and bio-rings. The last tray is empty and I drilled a hole here to fix a PVC pipe as the outlet back into the pond. I make sure that the outlet is bigger than the inlet pipe so that no water stays in any of the trays.

There are many ways to make a TT filter. You can see a good illustration by Mark, our Senior Member on the homepage under Trickle Tower.

All the best.

Rgds
Johnson


crazoo
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Dec 22, 2001, 5:19 AM

Post #144 of 312 (125928 views)
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my pond turns green, is there any other way to help the bio-filter to mature other than add in the bio kick start?
i was hoping for to to be matured in two weeks..
i am confused, because i heard if i wash the green matt using the pond water and put it back it would be ok. but then again probably because the same time i change 80 percent of the water after that..

and i had build a tt filter,, its now 1050 pieces.. but cant see the result coz the water is totally green now...

'fight with the best, die like the rest..'


SMW1
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Dec 22, 2001, 8:01 AM

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Stay calm Ahmad,

The bio filter will start to kick in after 3 - 6 weeks (from setting up), and then you will start to see the diiference over night.

If your pump is strong enough to circulate the water once an hour, then this may even happen sooner.

The only way to speed up the process is to borrow a piece of matting or flocor from a friend who already has a mature bio filter or buy some quick start for bio filters.

I would not suggest washing your filter media at this stage as this will slow down the process as you will be loosing a small amount of your baterica back into the water.

I also would not reccomend changing more that 50% of the water at one time. Did you do an 80% change to get rid of the green or another reason ?. If it was to get rid of the green, then this would be a waste of time.

Tap water contains lots of minerals and metalic particals (even after the anti chlorine is added), that the green eyed monsters thrive on. Unless your filter is already mature, changing the water will not really speed up the process, unless your water parameters are poor, it is not necessary at this stage.

Be patient my friend and before the start of January you should have a clear pond.

Stuart


crazoo
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Dec 22, 2001, 6:05 PM

Post #146 of 312 (125928 views)
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i did add the biokickstart, so what i can do now is just wait for it to kick in... i changed 80% of the water because remember when all my fish died but 1. so the water was a bit smelly.. so i changed... thanks anyway..


SMW1
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Dec 25, 2001, 2:28 AM

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Sorry, I didn't realise that all your fish died. How is the one left doing ?

I hope all works out for you. It sounds as though you have had some problems in the past. You can count on me to help you out if you start to experience any more unpleasentness.

Stuart


newbie
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Jan 15, 2002, 6:18 AM

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I'm confused about depth of bioball in TT, Mark say it must 30 cm minimal. Can anyone explain?? Mr. Khoo?


SMW1
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Jan 15, 2002, 6:53 AM

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Hi Newbie,

The taller the trickle tower the better.
You basically need water to run over as many bio balls as possible.

Some people make their Trickle towers shorter and wider, but this goes against the whole purpose of the trickle tower.

If you can imagine this. The water must pass over as many bio balls as possible. The more the better. However none of the bio balls must be submerged in water at any time. The purpose of the wet/dry system as apposed to the wet submerged system is that the trickle tower will allow maximum oxygen for the bateria to thrive. For each bio ball the water passes on to and off of, the water becomes "cleaner".

I hope this helps.

Stuart


crazoo
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Jan 16, 2002, 5:51 PM

Post #150 of 312 (125920 views)
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hi smw, just to inform u that my pond is clear now.. and the survivor fish is in excellant condition. but now it has a friend.. it is particularly close to my kujaku than others...

where can i find a good aerator.. ?


SMW1
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Jan 16, 2002, 6:50 PM

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Hi ahmad,

I'm glad your pond is now clear. It's a real shame that you lost quite a few koi along the way. Hopefully now the bad spell is out of the way, you can start enjoying the benifits of being a koi dad Sly.

As for the survivor "if it doesn't kill you, it can only make you stronger".

Stuart


newbie
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Jan 17, 2002, 1:17 PM

Post #152 of 312 (124235 views)
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Re: [SMW1] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

Shocked

thanks for your reply
i'm intend to use tt diy look like khoo bg tt.
i'm confused about height each step.
Can i use 2 step only?

Unsure


Khoobg
Webmaster


Jan 17, 2002, 2:08 PM

Post #153 of 312 (124229 views)
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Re: [newbie] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

The design is simple. I use four trays. The top tray is to ensure that water will be dripped evenly and slowly to the tray below. To achieve this, I drill a lot of small holes on the base of the top tray.

The most bottom tray is meant for collecting water and channel them back to pond via pvc pipe.

The middle two trays will hold all the bio balls.

If you can achieve all the above in two trays, why not Smile


cwloo
User

Apr 8, 2002, 6:38 AM

Post #154 of 312 (124040 views)
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Re: [Khoobg] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

hi,

any comment of dry up the pond & filter for direct sun expose after few years of usage ? Recently done that with one of my pond and after moving the koi back to the "new" pond the fish seem to enjoy it very much.


patrick123
Veteran


Apr 8, 2002, 7:33 AM

Post #155 of 312 (124039 views)
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Re: [cwloo] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

cwloo,

Are you sure the koi are happy not because they got out of the prison cell of temporary storage tank? Cool

By the way, how to you keep your good bacteria in your filter alive while you sun bath your pond and filter chamber? What do you do with with bio-balls?


cwloo
User

Apr 8, 2002, 8:43 AM

Post #156 of 312 (124035 views)
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Re: [patrick123] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

no, because I have 2 ponds at home. Smile I moved all the fish from the 1st pond (this pond is about 7 years running none stop) to the 2nd for about a weeks so that I can sun the 1st pond for about 3 days. Water take about 24hrs to fill (Mad, this month water bills is gonna be exp), after which I put salt + others water starter kits and let the "new" pond run for 2 days.

I advoid keeping any old filter media cause I want to advoid any bad bacteria that leave over thus I sun all the filter map as well. I recon. it should be ok as I try not to feed them for about a weeks so by that time the good bacteria will start to grow already. My pandan plant still there so they should able to take as many nitrate as possible (those plant was clean and sun for half day before i put them into water again)

I didn't have any bio-balls install in the previos system yet but I going to try it next week.


patrick123
Veteran


Apr 8, 2002, 11:59 AM

Post #157 of 312 (124027 views)
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Re: [cwloo] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

cwloo,

That's an interesting concept....not many people are as lucky as you to have 2 ponds. By the way, what do you do with the 2nd pond when you move the fishes back to the first 1? Do you spit the stock?

I guess 7 years is a long time and probably good idea to clean it out thoroughly. By the way, aren't you afraid of new tank syndrom by doing this?


cwloo
User

Apr 8, 2002, 1:40 PM

Post #158 of 312 (124021 views)
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Re: [patrick123] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

well, I actually have 2 batch of Koi. The 2nd pond is a smaller pond (2.5 - 3 feet) mean for keeping smaller Koi fish ( about 15 @ >30cm + 10 newly bought @ ~12cm ) while the 1st pond (4 feet) keep all the bigger one (> 60cm ). I had about 32 big one in the 1st pond so I moved 25 to the smaller pond for a week and another 7 in 2 hospital tank.

Not very sure of any new tank "syndrom (?)" as I never experience any before. The water system in my pond is like those water pump that you purchase for the fish tank which suck the air when the water go thru .. thus supply the pond with plenty of oxygen. ... I let the pump/filter system run for 2 ~3 days before I move the Koi back, maybe thats eliminate a lot of problem regarding new water.

Any problem regarding new water systemt that I not aware of ?


patrick123
Veteran


Apr 10, 2002, 1:57 PM

Post #159 of 312 (123981 views)
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Re: [cwloo] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

cwloo,

Are you sure you don't mean to say 4m instead of 4ft? Because 4ft is simply too small to house 32 jumbo koi at >60cm.

What is the deep and width of your ponds?

Cheers,
Patrick


cwloo
User

Apr 10, 2002, 5:41 PM

Post #160 of 312 (123972 views)
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Re: [patrick123] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

er .. sorry .. the 4ft is mean the deep of the pond. the length is >12 ft and the width is > 5 ft.

can't remember the exact measure .. only remember the deep is 4ft.


patrick123
Veteran


Apr 11, 2002, 5:00 AM

Post #161 of 312 (123967 views)
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Re: [cwloo] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

cwloo,

Lucky you to have such a big garden. In my small Singapore home, I can only afford a 5x3x2 ft fiber tank in my garden. Unsure

Since the topic of this post is on Nitrate, did you build a TT filter? I got one using a trash can. Looks really out of place but I guess I don't really have any choice.

Cheers,
Patrick


cwloo
User

Apr 11, 2002, 5:46 AM

Post #162 of 312 (123958 views)
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Re: [patrick123] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

no , i haven't put any TT filter on the 2 pond yet .. Bought a small bag of bioball to try on the Q tank and the result is noticeable..

I used 2 x 1.5 little coke bottle to connect together and put the bio ball inside for testing of TT filter.. the water condition for the Q tank (no fish) is very bad cause the water is from the old pond. High level of nitrate & nitrite. Take a water reading before I place the bioball and the nitrite is >5mg/l (can't remember nitrate reading). After running for 2 days I notice that the water turn clear and I took another reading .. the nitrite & nitrate drop ...

Still decide whether to use a 12" PVC pipe or PVC box .. But I think I will get more bio ball (1200 maybe ?) this weekend and ready for the main pond test.


wishi
New User

Jun 12, 2002, 8:33 AM

Post #163 of 312 (123832 views)
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Re: [Khoobg] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

 


gemmgjl
Novice

Aug 23, 2002, 7:27 AM

Post #164 of 312 (123700 views)
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Re: [Doc Conrad] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

what is doc conrad talking about salt killing koi? the farms that supply koi run salt all the time , though i wouldn t run it all the time , i have run it for over 3 weeks at 3 per cent and had no proplems at all,streesed a few plants (not all), but they all came back.i use 99.5 per cent pure morton water softener salt and anytime i ever added it to my middle waterfall all the fish rush under the falls as if they love it, untill it s evenly dispersed,please expound


TonyG
User

Aug 23, 2002, 10:23 AM

Post #165 of 312 (123692 views)
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Re: [gemmgjl] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

are you sure you run your pond at 3% salt level for three weeks or you meant to say 0.3%? I'm not sure about the type of salt you are using but if it is 3%, than I seriously doubt that a koi can live in such a salinity.

Tony


johnson lee
Veteran

Aug 23, 2002, 10:39 AM

Post #166 of 312 (123692 views)
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Re: [TonyG] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with Tony that at 3.0% salinity, kois would be hard pressed to survive and also the plants, they would all die.Crazy

Johnson


patrick123
Veteran


Aug 23, 2002, 11:10 AM

Post #167 of 312 (123686 views)
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Re: [johnson lee] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

I can attest to this. When I first started measuring salt, I made the mistake of using a marine hydrometer and thought that 0.022 specific gravity is equivalent to 0.3% salt. Guess what. I put a test koi into the water and it just went belly up on me instanteously. Luckily I removed it fast and it was saved.

Later I found out that 0.022 specific gravity which is what marine fish thrive on is actually 3% salt.

Cheers,
Patrick


gemmgjl
Novice

Aug 24, 2002, 10:41 PM

Post #168 of 312 (123664 views)
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Re: [gemmgjl] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

forgot the decimal point , still the question remains- .3%


johnson lee
Veteran

Aug 26, 2002, 5:56 AM

Post #169 of 312 (123639 views)
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Re: [gemmgjl] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi gemmgjl

Salt is a very good healing property and it also kills quite a number of known bad bugs. That is why, whenever our kois run into some kind of trouble, the first thing is to add salt.

Salt at 0.1 to 0.3% salinity is a recommended % for healing and recovery and killing bad bugs. Any higher, say up to 0.6% can also be used but for a shorter duration and thereafter immediately diluted. I have read on some websites that kois can tolerate much higher salt salinity. While I have no personal experience in that, I am happy to use salt at 0.3% and safely recommend to anyone at this level.

The reason why we do not encourage koi owners to keep the salinity in their pond permanently is to prevent a risk of the bad bugs becoming resistant to salt.

You can do a search at www.koivet.com and you can read up more about salt.

Any other comments welcomed.

Johnson


Nibiru
New User

Sep 6, 2002, 12:36 PM

Post #170 of 312 (123579 views)
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Re: [Mark] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi you all!

I have read through the topic, beacuse I would like to build an adequate filtering system to my aquarium.

I do not have a pond, since I lack of space, and in my country, winter is too cold, I would get some frozen fish by the end of november.

Thus I keep african cichlids. I too have a problems with high nitrate and sometimes phosphate levels, and beeing tired of regular water changes, which always have the risk of putting some new bacteria, or other stuff, like too much chlorine into the aquarium, I have decided to build a trickle system.

After reading the topic, there are still a few questions on my mind:

1, I have a 500 liter aquarium. What dimensions must the tower have? I would like to make it as small as possible, since it will be in the house.

2, Bioballs are too expensive for me, lava rock is not available, just for gold, Unsure what other material can be used for a filter media? I was thinking about that clayish thing, which resides in power plants. I mean that red thing, which when grinded, used to cover tennis courts.

3, Must I use my old filter too, or it is not needed any more?

4, Is there any way to make is start faster? Some bacteria concentrate or like it?

5, What do you do with phosphates?

Hope you can help me.


cometress
Novice

Sep 16, 2002, 5:23 PM

Post #171 of 312 (123528 views)
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Re: [Mark] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

To Mark and a few others (can't remember thier names as this is a long and interesting topic).

After following all the questions & replies here, it appears that the general consensus of the members here agreed that a trickling tower can reduce nitrate, as opposed to the widely known fact that nitrate can only be reduced by water changing and adding more plants. I also read some where in this thread that a tower has to be 3' high in order to have any effectiveness. Is that correct? How about shorter, say 2' ?

My question - is it really better to build a high and slim tower or a big surface area but shallow depth (assuming both has the same volumn). Due to my limitation of space (my is a fibre indoor pond at my living room), I prefer the latter design ( ie big surface area but shallow depth). Would it be just as effective?

Another questions on bio balls - do you need to rinse them once in a while or just live it there for life. I have not used it but by looking at most of the bio balls, the gaps between respective surfaces are quite wide apart and it appears won't get clog. So I guess there's no point in rinsing, correct?

Thanks for advise.Wink


johnson lee
Veteran

Sep 17, 2002, 8:06 AM

Post #172 of 312 (123504 views)
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Re: [cometress] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi there

A TT filter is most useful and have been proven very effective in removing nitrates from the pond system.Smile The diameter is not terribly important. Even if you have a 1' diameter but you have a good height (of at least 12" between the trickle and the media), it would be effective.

Rinsing is necessary if you see some clogging of debris. Make sure you rinse the bio-balls with pond water only.

Johnson


SMW1
Veteran

Sep 17, 2002, 10:09 AM

Post #173 of 312 (123495 views)
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Re: [johnson lee] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

Just for info,

I built a TT about a year and a half ago now. I also built one (identical fro my friend). Both had flocor as the media rather than bio balls. Our ponds are roughly the same volume and the filters we use are also both home made and do the job well. The only difference is that I have a G65 turbo cleaner, he only as a G20.

Anyway to cut a long story short. We both had Crystal clear water. He decided to rinse his TT media (in pond water), I was supposed to do mine as well but I didn't get the time. As soon as he rinsed his media within a couple of days his water became cloudy and slighty green. I decided to hold off on the cleaning of my TT. His Nitrates levels were 25 above normal and he had to do a few day of water changes to get the levels down. After 3 weeks of greenish water his pond cleared up again.

I have never cleaned my TT in the 1.5 years I have had it. I fitted a bottom drain to it and I do flush it once a month, but this is only because it takes water direct from the pond.

I feel that with the expection of regular flushing filters are best left alone. I know that a lot of people will disagree with me, but it seems that everytime I clean a chamber in my filter (just one), I encounter water problems. So I am leaving a lot of the maintainence up to nature.

Stuart


dttk
Veteran

Sep 17, 2002, 3:19 PM

Post #174 of 312 (123482 views)
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Re: [SMW1] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

Guys Smile, I'm sure a TT need not be cleaned at all if built correctly. Khoo never cleans his and I'm sure many others do not as well. The most important factor that discourages bad bugs from residing in the TT is the high level of oxygenation. So, ensure that your TT is well oxygenated and ventilated Sly. As for shape of TT, broad or cylindrical does not matter if ventilation is good. As for the height of TT, the taller the better! Logic tells me that by increasing the distance to be travelled by water, more gaseous exchange occurs and there is more contact with the bacteria rich bio-media. This would result in more effective removal of nitrates in water. Documentation? No need lah as long as it is logical...Laugh. Cheers!
Always friendly :)


RichardD
Novice

Sep 17, 2002, 3:54 PM

Post #175 of 312 (123480 views)
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Re: [dttk] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

My question about a TT is. How long until you start to see the positive affects of it.


SMW1
Veteran

Sep 17, 2002, 4:55 PM

Post #176 of 312 (122038 views)
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Re: [RichardD] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

Its the same as a normal filter. could be a couple of weeks, could be months.


firstkoi
New User

Sep 18, 2002, 12:46 AM

Post #177 of 312 (122033 views)
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Re: [SMW1] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

I am new here but i have a quick question. is it possible that the nitrates being removed in a TT are actually being removed by dissipation? i mean if you let water with hi nitrate sit for awhile by itself will the nitrate evaporate? also a lot of the marine aquarium guys have dropped their trickle filters when raising corrals and corraline algea, algeabeing the key term. of course they wouldnt want something that filters out algea food. but when you are talking about fish only tanks then they say "use the trickle filter". well gotta go lots to learn for my "firstkoi"


Khoobg
Webmaster


Sep 18, 2002, 5:01 AM

Post #178 of 312 (122025 views)
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Re: [cometress] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

6 Feet will be a good height for your TT. For better result, please use a low flow rate to your trickle.


SMW1
Veteran

Sep 18, 2002, 9:43 AM

Post #179 of 312 (122022 views)
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Re: [firstkoi] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

welcome to the forum.

In stagnant water nitrate will start to turn from liquid to a solid form (eventually over a long period of time). With constant movement and the splashing that a tt provides I strongly believe that the nitrates are absorbed by the air. I have no way of proving this, this is just my theory, but it's hard to believe that bacteria alone are responsible for the removal of Nitrates.


johnson lee
Veteran

Sep 18, 2002, 12:31 PM

Post #180 of 312 (122018 views)
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Re: [SMW1] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

I always thought that the wonders of the TT is its ability to remove nitrites and nitrates effectively from the system due to the gaseous exchange that takes place as the water trickles pass the air and into the dry media! Not so much of bacteria, but the O2 that helps converts them into nitrous oxide.

Of course, it has been proven that good bugs also helps to convert nitrites into nitrates but like Stuart, I cannot explain why both nitrites and nitrates can be removed by a TT filter. Just that I know through my own experience.

Johnson


SMW1
Veteran

Sep 18, 2002, 12:43 PM

Post #181 of 312 (122017 views)
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Re: [johnson lee] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess its the miricle of science. It's all a bit technical. There has been much discussion on Trickle towers, it seems as though even the people who now make them do not know exactly how they work. They just do, and I guess that's all that matters. Why are we all here on this planet ?. I don't know, but I'm not complaining SlyLaughWink


koifun
Veteran


Sep 18, 2002, 1:51 PM

Post #182 of 312 (122014 views)
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Re: [SMW1] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry Stuart,Smile

I need to clarify from chemistry point of view nitrate should not turn into solid so long it is in water as most if not all nitrates are extremely soluble in water.



Best Regards




  • "Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. - Euripides"
  • CoolSmileTongueSmile


    SMW1
    Veteran

    Sep 18, 2002, 4:17 PM

    Post #183 of 312 (122008 views)
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    Re: [Koifun] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Ah, thats very interesting. It doesn't surprise me that I am wrong and I'm glad that you corrected me. I was told by a koi dealer a while back that nitrates would solidify if left for a long period of time in stagnant water. The koi dealer who told me has also tried to bluff his knowledge in a few other areas of koi, so this is the reason I'm not surprised. Thanks for the update.


    deep_end
    New User

    Feb 27, 2003, 7:22 PM

    Post #184 of 312 (121755 views)
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    Re: [SMW1] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi people,

    I just signed up today after all these years in the fishy (but not Koi) hobby, so I hope I don't upset too many people by digging this thread up again!

    Although I'm not into Koi much myself (my sis was a Koi breeder, though), perhaps I could throw some light onto why a TT works so well for removal of NH3, NO2 AND NO3, even though it's NOT supposed to work for NO3s. Why?

    Basically, the nitrification potential of any biological filter depends on how much well-oxygenated water passes through a huge amount of filter media like bio-balls. BUT, the DE-nitrification potential to breakdown NO3 to N2 gas simply cannot be achieved in the same environment, since the denitrif. bact. are essentially anaerobic in nature.

    And yes, I too am mostly into coral reef tanks nowadays, where NO3 was also a major problem for us, but not any more. When we used TTs in our marine tanks, NH3 and NO2 would drop super-fast, but NO3 would slowly climb, and climb, thus requiring monthly water changes just for the purpose of lowering the NO3 levels to below 20 ppm. Of course we use other methods nowadays to keep our NO3 levels to 0 ppm ALL the time, but these methods wouldn't work in a Koi pond, IMHO.

    Coming back to the TT filter, I have a feeling it works for you guys because the key word here is "TALL". In a tall TT, the water entering the filter has lots of O2. But as it drips thru' the bioballs, the O2 is used up by the aerobic bacteria to break down NH3 and NO2. As the water continues flowing down, O2 levels are being depleted which would then enable the denitrif. bacteria to start growing more and more. This would then seem like the top portion of the TT would be the nitrif. part and the bottom, the denitrif. part. This could be why a short but wide surface area TT wouldn't be as effective.

    This can be confirmed if someone has an ORP (redox potential) monitor that measures the readings at the point of entry, and the point of exit. If my guess is correct, there should be huge difference in the 2 readings.

    Regards,


    dttk
    Veteran

    Feb 28, 2003, 5:52 AM

    Post #185 of 312 (121741 views)
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    Re: [deep_end] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi deep_end, welcome to the forum. Thanks for your input. What you mentioned is interesting. As far as I know, the TT is constructed in such a way that air flow throughout the media is sufficient by having openings at the sides of the tower. Some TTs are only made of a tall column of bioballs supported by a plastic cage or netting. Furthermore the choice of bioballs as media ensures that air and water are able to permeate the media easily. The chance of any anaerobic activity even at the lower end of the tower would be unlikely. Hence, it looks like we're back to square one. Perhaps like you said, measurement of the redox potential of the water at inlet and outlet may shed some light. Cheers! Smile
    Always friendly :)

    (This post was edited by dttk on Feb 28, 2003, 5:53 AM)


    johnson lee
    Veteran

    Feb 28, 2003, 8:09 AM

    Post #186 of 312 (121734 views)
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    Re: [dttk] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    I welcome you to the forum too deep_end!Smile

    A very interesting postulation on your part! But I must say that the workings of a TT filter is still a mystery to me. Cheers!


    deep_end
    New User

    Feb 28, 2003, 3:15 PM

    Post #187 of 312 (121708 views)
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    Re: [johnson lee] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    dttk & Johnson,

    Thanks for the welcome. Dttk, you're right. If the TT contains air slots throughout its height, then my "theory" is shot to bits. But I have seen numerous TTs made without these slots, since water tends to seep out thru' them as well. At the end of the day, I guess it doesn't really matter WHY it works but that it actually does, for whatever reason.


    adriel
    Novice

    Mar 16, 2003, 1:43 PM

    Post #188 of 312 (121642 views)
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    Re: [jtang] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    in jakarta bioballs cost about S$0.05 or about Rp. 250 / each. the cost of transportation should not be too high. I will be glad to help anyone wanting to buy them. rully


    DocRodConrad
    User

    Apr 1, 2003, 2:51 AM

    Post #189 of 312 (121554 views)
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    Theory of trickle tower filtration to reduce nitrates [In reply to] Can't Post

    When denitrification is studied in scientific detail, the only way the nitrogen leaves the water, other than by plant absorption, is to convert nitrite to nitrous oxide and nitric oxide. This is true whether the denitrification occurs with either aerobic or anerobic bacteria. So how trickle towers work to denitrify (remove nitrogen) is independent of whether we argue it is done with aerobic or anerobic bacteria. If the nitrogen is already nitrate, the bacteria must first convert it to nitrite before making it into nitrous oxide and nitric oxide. If the pond starts up on trickle tower filtration, nitrates should never form if the trickle towers are properly constucted with enough capacity.

    There is another trick to starting up new ponds, namely the use of a large dose of calcium bentonite clay. The clay chemically binds the nitrite until the TT biofilms convert it to nitric oxide and nitrous oxide. So with the right formula of clay charge and TT construction, a new pond and new filter never has to have any measurable nitrites, or nitrates. I have done that myself literally dozens of times in "virgin new trickle tower" cycling experiments combined with high doses of bentonite clay.

    The problem getting rid of nitrates in submerged media filtration is that the nitrous oxide and nitric oxide products of denitrification biofilm reactions redissolve in the water, and form more nitrites and nitrates. So these products of denitrification have a hard time to leave the water, and go around and around in a big circle.

    In trickle tower filtration, those gases just exit to the air as they leave the trickle tower biofilm. And the nitrogen is gone. As has been discussed on this forum for several years now, it works.

    On the matter of ORP readings, trickle towers increase ORP readings significantly. That is why trickle tower filters cure both green water algae and stringy algae, the ORP levels are increased by about 100 units to literally "burn up" the algae colonies in oxidation reactions. I have studied this effect for several years.

    It continues to be a pleasure to have this valuable discussion thread saved for the ponding community as an excellent reference.
    Roddy Conrad, Charleston, WV, USA


    dttk
    Veteran

    Apr 1, 2003, 9:25 AM

    Post #190 of 312 (121529 views)
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    Re: [DocRodConrad] Theory of trickle tower filtration to reduce nitrates [In reply to] Can't Post

    Doc, in other words, TT removes nitrogen from water by converting nitrite into nitric oxide and nitrous oxide gas and this is more easily achieved in anaerobic conditions than aerobic conditions since nitrate(NO3) has to be converted back into nitrite(NO2). If this is so, starving the bacteria of oxygen would help to speed up the process? Am I correct? Smile
    Always friendly :)


    DocRodConrad
    User

    Apr 1, 2003, 1:02 PM

    Post #191 of 312 (121518 views)
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    Re: [dttk] Theory of trickle tower filtration to reduce nitrates [In reply to] Can't Post

    No one really knows for sure whether it is anerobic or aerobic bacteria that do the conversion of the nitrites to nitrous oxide and nitric oxide. From scientist who have studied it in great detail, both species of bacteria, meaning aerobic bacteria and anerobic bacteria, can convert nitrite to nitric oxide and nitrous oxide.

    My point is that there must be lots of contact with the air to get rid of the nitrous oxide and nitric oxide. Without a lot of contact with the air, these oxides will dissolve in the water to make more nitrites and nitrates. The only good way to get them out of the pond is to make the air exchange good at the place the biofilm resides. That is best done in a trickle tower with lots of air exchange.

    If they bacteria need to be anerobic, they will grow in a biofilm which becomes anerobic even with good air exchange at the surface.
    Roddy Conrad, Charleston, WV, USA


    dttk
    Veteran

    Apr 2, 2003, 9:29 AM

    Post #192 of 312 (121491 views)
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    Re: [DocRodConrad] Theory of trickle tower filtration to reduce nitrates [In reply to] Can't Post

    Thanks for the explanation, Doc Smile.
    Always friendly :)


    Just Me Koi
    Novice


    Apr 12, 2003, 6:22 AM

    Post #193 of 312 (121430 views)
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    Re: [Mark] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hello Mark,
    Thanks for your wonderful and informative experiments.

    In concept, it seems as if a trickle tower allows the flow of water from the pond to go through a process where by the incoming water deposits it's settlements, then goes through a series of synthetic materials before returning to the pond!

    What if I do one similar to http://www.blondieswebdesigns.com/water_garden/filter/biofilter.html
    The entire system is in a 55 gallon drum. The water comes into a 4" pipe that goes all the way to the bottom of the drum. dumps into a 12" void, then upflows through about20" of synthetic filter mats. then through about 12" of top water filled with bioballs & water hyacinth, then out to the pond?

    What do you think?


    Just Me Koi from Rancho Cucamonga, California
    _______________________________________________
    "Architecture is the ultimate erotic 'object'."
    Bernard Tschumi, "Architecture & Transgression"

    http://community.webshots.com/user/godwino


    eid12345
    New User

    Apr 12, 2003, 6:50 AM

    Post #194 of 312 (121423 views)
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    Re: [Just Me Koi] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi There,

    Anybody can tell me whether it is possible to run sand filter 24h/day by using submerge pump, then what is the benefit? can this help purfying the water like undergravel?


    CyberET
    Novice

    May 28, 2003, 5:37 PM

    Post #195 of 312 (121177 views)
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    Re: [eid12345] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    I'm having nitrate problems, my ammonia is 0, nitrite is 0 too. however my nitrate is about 200mg/l. After reading the forums, I've read that TT are effective in removing nitrate levels, do you all know where I can get one in singapore or order one? because its a 4ton pond.. everytime change so much water to reduce nitrate, water bill also very $$$. Or can anyone in sg help me build one? After changing 80% of the water, nitrate went down to 50, the next day, its back up at 100.

    A picture of my current filter

    http://www.arofanatics.com/...=&postid=1129573


    cwnchong
    Koi Kichi

    May 29, 2003, 11:31 AM

    Post #196 of 312 (121161 views)
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    Re: [CyberET] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    CyberET, TT is usually custom made or DIY ones. There are a few postings in this forum that are listed in the HOT TOPICS section. You can refer to it & make your own TT. It is a simple system. The system let your pond water trickle down in droplets from a height onto a set of bio filter material (placed above the water) & let the water dripped back into the pond from the soaked media.

    Cheers


    CRaider
    User

    Jun 3, 2003, 3:13 PM

    Post #197 of 312 (121086 views)
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    Re: [CyberET] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    CyberET,
    I do know someone who has ready made TT or they can custom for you i think.


    "Ancora Imparo"


    micky
    User

    Jun 4, 2003, 7:32 AM

    Post #198 of 312 (121060 views)
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    Re: [CyberET] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi CyberET
    You can solve this problem by pumping the filtered water to some planter box, elevated, then let the water drop back to the pond like that of a TT. Goodluck!
    Regards, Micky


    rogermoo
    Koi Kichi

    Jun 11, 2003, 7:38 PM

    Post #199 of 312 (120973 views)
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    Re: [micky] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi CyberET and others,

    I saw some pictures of something quite unique being used by the breeder Momotaro in this magazine name 'KIO BITO'. It's called a BAKKI SHOWER. Consisted of 4 separated stackable long decks; in 4 rows, sitting on top one another with empty air-space inbetween decks. In these decks are media for bacteria (so it is actually a bacteria filter house, in a way it is actually a TT). Water is from the top. What surprises me is its dual usage. In all the top 3 decks (all the 4 rows) are growing plants which looks like wet padi plants (or probably water weeds).

    So you see, the water re-entering the pond are good water. The padi plants absorbs all the nitrate and the good bacteria in the 4 separated stacked decks does the rest of the job! So no nitrate!

    Rogermoo7, the local koibond


    (This post was edited by rogermoo on Jun 11, 2003, 7:45 PM)


    leej
    User

    Jun 12, 2003, 3:54 AM

    Post #200 of 312 (120972 views)
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    Re: [Khoobg] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi,
    Thanks for your diagram of a trickle filter. I am planning to build one according to your design and have a few questions. I hope you can help me with them.

    1) Heavy Brush Rolls - are these the brushes that look like bottle cleaners sold in pet shops? Is so, how do I arrange them. The ones I saw in koi ponds are hanged vertically but the water flows horizontally. In your illustration, since the water flows upward, may I know how I should put the brushes?

    2) Filter Mattings - Are these the typical Japanese Green matts sold in pet shops. I got a 1 mtr x 2 mtr x 2.5 cm Bio-Mat from a pet shop. Is this the one I should use?

    3) PVC Piping - How can I reduce the flow of water from the pond into a "trickle" in the PVC pipe? Does increasing the size of the pipe, making a "T" outlet and drilling holes do the trick?

    4) Cleaning of the filter media - Should I clean any of the filter media mentioned in the illustration? If so, which one? Brushes? Matts? Balls?

    5) I also notice that there is no drain plugs in the illustraion. Do I presume that I should install one to flush out the solids and debris that settle at the bottom?

    Thank you very much for your help.

    leej


    Mongrel Hordes
    Novice

    Jun 14, 2003, 1:18 AM

    Post #201 of 312 (126484 views)
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    Re: [rogermoo] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    I found this:

    http://www.koi-bito.com/forum/messages/1827.html

    And a pic of one as well:
    http://www.koi-bito.com/forum/messages/2245.html


    (This post was edited by Mongrel Hordes on Jun 14, 2003, 1:26 AM)


    dttk
    Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003, 8:44 PM

    Post #202 of 312 (126408 views)
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    Re: [Mongrel Hordes] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Thanks for the links. I think the last point abt not needing mechanical filtration is controversial. Smile
    Always friendly :)


    Mongrel Hordes
    Novice

    Jun 23, 2003, 7:02 AM

    Post #203 of 312 (126389 views)
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    Re: [dttk] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Your welcome! Smile


    douglezzz
    User

    Jun 24, 2003, 5:08 PM

    Post #204 of 312 (126368 views)
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    Re: [Doc Conrad] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post


    In Reply To
    Oh, my goodness, Mark has finally figured out why his koi were bug eyed, namely the high nitrate levels were doing it! Does that mean when I post here once again that I can run my salt up to 1.0% for either salt or koi without getting bug eyed fish he will finally believe me?

    Just a question, Mark, think through the data which led you to post the absurd posted observation that salt levels above 0.5% causes bug eyed fish and see if what I say here is not so.........I certainly see no bug eyed fish up to and including 1% salt levels........

    Roddy Conrad


    I recall a doc, long ago, named Timothy Leary that was another chemist giving advice on the regular use of chemicals to "enhance the quality of life"
    The difference was his "subjects" had the option to agree or not.
    I believe Ozzie Ozborne, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin and Ron Wood followed his advice..........

    WinkWink http://aquascienceresearch.com/APInfo/Salt.htm


    (This post was edited by douglezzz on Jun 24, 2003, 5:23 PM)


    orson
    Novice

    Aug 4, 2003, 7:23 PM

    Post #205 of 312 (126134 views)
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    Re: [Khoobg] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi,

    My koi pond is just a few weeks old but have not incorporated the tt system proposed here. Can you make suggestions as to how I can change one or more of my filter chambers to tt since it seems to be proven that it is most effective in clearing out nitrates. Size of pond is about 16 tons including 6 chamber filter each one measuring about 0.9 x 0.9 x 0.8(depth) meters. Transfer pipes consist of 2 3" pvc pipe that transfers water from the top of previous chamber to the bottom of next chamber. Pumps located at last chamber. 1 pump to waterfalls the other to underwater return. Can't seem to figure out how to create less water in one of the chambers to mimick tt system.

    Orson


    rickout03
    Novice

    Aug 20, 2003, 3:02 AM

    Post #206 of 312 (126053 views)
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    Re: [Mongrel Hordes] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Also check out this forum and the thread on Skippy filter systems

    http://www.akca.org/index/fboard/fboard.htm


    alantang_85
    Novice

    Nov 5, 2003, 6:38 PM

    Post #207 of 312 (125577 views)
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    Re: [Khoobg] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Will it work if i just let the water fill up in the bioball chamber intead of simply allowing the water to trickle down?


    looialex
    Novice

    Nov 12, 2003, 3:17 PM

    Post #208 of 312 (125511 views)
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    Re: [Mark] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Advertising contents posted by someone with stone in his head was deleted.


    (This post was edited by Khoobg on Dec 16, 2003, 5:11 PM)


    robot_engineer
    Novice

    Nov 13, 2003, 2:37 AM

    Post #209 of 312 (125498 views)
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    Re: [alantang_85] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Alan,

    The purpose of a trickle tower is to allow water to mix very well with oxygen (air). The trickling (dripping) affect is the key of mixing water and air. By submerging the bioballs into the water, the chamber becomes a standard filter chamber, not a tt. It will work, but it does not work like a tt. It is the combination of surface contact (bioballs), and mixing of water and air that allow the good bacterials to grow and get rid of the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate.

    Any koi sifu please correct me if my interpretation is wrong here.

    Regards,

    -Steve


    bayileong
    User

    Nov 14, 2003, 9:56 AM

    Post #210 of 312 (125460 views)
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    Re: [orson] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi, I am sorry, I know your posting was way back in August but I just saw it. How is your TT doing?


    alantang_85
    Novice

    Nov 14, 2003, 10:44 AM

    Post #211 of 312 (125458 views)
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    Re: [robot_engineer] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Thank you steve.

    Sound like another good component for my pond. My next step is to construct a TT.

    Wink


    fff
    User

    Nov 24, 2003, 10:14 AM

    Post #212 of 312 (125345 views)
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    Re: [Mark] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Can you please provide some pics/ internal works pics for us to share?


    fff
    User

    Nov 24, 2003, 10:18 AM

    Post #213 of 312 (125344 views)
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    Re: [Khoobg] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Y not? plant a pot of plants like arrow head, plants as long as can do well half merged water. instead of soil put sand.

    There you go more than 6" of sand.


    fff
    User

    Nov 24, 2003, 10:40 AM

    Post #214 of 312 (125343 views)
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    Re: [jtang] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Are you living in SG? If so, go to kallang basin, one of the fish shop there. 10 bucks per 100pcs.

    somewhere near kaki bukit ave 1 ( near my work place). selling 9 bucks per 100pcs.

    hope this helps.


    fff
    User

    Nov 24, 2003, 12:13 PM

    Post #215 of 312 (125337 views)
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    Re: [johnson lee] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    I dont understand why u and the rest mentioned that one must allow the water to drop a distance before reaches the bio ball? I feel that as long as the amount of dissolved air in the water is high enough ( araete the part below it goes into a TT )then it should work then.

    I read at biohome website, best flow rate is 5cm/s. I feel that this unit of measurement is more relevant than how many times the pond is cycled in 1 hr. Because every filter esp DIY ones are diff in size and shape.

    The fact a lot of SG pple live in matchboxes, the pond of theirs is not big at all. So when we all talk about how many times should a water in the pond be cycled, often I feel that it is not applicable to them as by using a small pump, it might not be efficient in cleaning the dirt and feaces.

    Like them I faces this problem, so I designed my own filter , link :http://www.koi.com.my/cgi-bin/koiforum/gforum.cgi?post=32269;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

    Please feel free to comment.


    fff
    User

    Nov 24, 2003, 12:15 PM

    Post #216 of 312 (125337 views)
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    Re: [Mark] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post


    In Reply To
    In this region, many of us do not have the luxury to build big ponds in expensive lands. We therefore built small concrete ones or install ready made small fibreglass tanks. In view of the constraint, there is no or little room left for plants. So installing a trickle tower in such situation is the most logical way to help us to get rid of the nitrates.


    tRUE..

    Perhaps my design works for s'porean: http://www.koi.com.my/cgi-bin/koiforum/gforum.cgi?post=32269;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread


    frydaddy
    New User

    Nov 28, 2003, 7:22 PM

    Post #217 of 312 (125294 views)
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    Re: [fff] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

     
    One information that I failed to find in the 8 long pages of this interesting thread is what happened when the TT got dried up, like in a blackout for instance.
    I would really hate it to re-cycle the TT all over again due to a several hours of blackout.

    Chip.


    cwnchong
    Koi Kichi

    Nov 30, 2003, 11:41 AM

    Post #218 of 312 (125277 views)
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    Re: [frydaddy] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi, This TT topic is sure very interesting. I wish to find out more about this TT stuff.

    What kind of cubic area (volume) of TT media to a ton of pond water for example. I have seen TT in the marine aquarium shops, they are as big as their aquarium. If base on this proportion, a 1 ton pond needs an approx 1 cu meter of media if I am not wrong.

    I hope the gurus in this forum can shade some light with us.

    Cheers


    frydaddy
    New User

    Nov 30, 2003, 4:31 PM

    Post #219 of 312 (125272 views)
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    Re: [cwnchong] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    I don't know about marine aquarium, but I'm betting that a 1:1 ratio is an overkill. TT is supposed to be more efficient than submerged media, some say that it is 10x more efficient, some even say 100x more efficient (an overstatement, IMHO). That means, you will require less than area/volume to replace your current filtration setup.

    Perhaps in an aquarium shops setting, it should be oversized, since the tank will mostlikely be overcrowded.

    Chip.


    cwnchong
    Koi Kichi

    Dec 1, 2003, 3:54 AM

    Post #220 of 312 (125268 views)
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    Re: [frydaddy] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi Chip,

    I have to agree with you on the efficiency, if it is compared with the fully submerge bio-filter. Becoz our bio-filter are usually too deep. I may be wrong, this IOMO that the depth of our filter ( beside the few inches of it useful surface) has a small benefit only i.e. only good for stabilizing the temperature, but not for cultivating good bacteria.

    TT is preferred becoz its surfaces are fully utilized & sufficient oxygen are supplied more evenly in the air. I wish to know how big should our TT be, compare to pond size.

    Tks/rgds


    frydaddy
    New User

    Dec 1, 2003, 3:51 PM

    Post #221 of 312 (125255 views)
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    Re: [cwnchong] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Yeah, I can't find good guidelines on the sizing of the TT too.
    I suppose we can borrow the rule of 30%, and apply 10-15% of it for a TT setup.

    Chip.


    goldy
    User

    Jan 10, 2004, 1:32 AM

    Post #222 of 312 (125047 views)
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    Re: [frydaddy] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    hi you seem to be comparing the tt with the tricle filter, if you are. you are right about it being more eficiant i would not go as far as saying 100 times, but one third of media volume which would probably give you a filter quarter the size of a submerged filter, a higher stocking level and higher pumping capasity, no dwelltime,?

    the tt and the t filter are totally differant. haveing said that if you could combine the two you would have a perfect fillter?

    i too am very interested in this thread nobody seems to know why it works , i personally like doc conrads theiry about bacteria converting the nitrate to gas then being expelled into the atmosphere, if not the gas gets reabsorbed into the water and back into the pond as nitrate, shuerly a simple test for this would be to get a tt that is known to work and encase it so that the gas cant escape if this is why the tt works the nitrate would increase and you have your answer, if this is the case the tt would be more easally adaptobal to differant situations, the more we know the more we can use to are advantage. i have noticed that bio balls seem to be the prefered media virtually unclogable and very open which leans me towards the theary about the gas exchange, also the slower the trickle the better if there was lots of water splashin about comeing in contact with the gas reabsorbing the nitrate,

    thats just my opinion the only knowledge i have on the tt is by this very interesting thread

    thanks mark


    BillyBoy
    Novice


    Feb 16, 2004, 8:38 AM

    Post #223 of 312 (124520 views)
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    Re: High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    I was wondering if the relatively high incidence of surface to air exposure of the nutrient (waste) laden water with the bacteria is possibly the cause of the Kaldnes K1 Media's (in the Evolution Aqua Nexus filter) as yet undocumented (?) ability to remove nitrates by the process of expelling ammonia/ammonium wastes directly to gas (NO2)? Especially in comparison to traditional pressurised bio media filters that have no air interface.

    Anyone have any bright ideas on the matter?


    chiselchst
    Novice

    Feb 28, 2004, 1:59 PM

    Post #224 of 312 (124405 views)
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    Re: [BillyBoy] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Great thread. I am learning a lot. Thanks to all that have posted. I do have a couple of questions;

    1. Can bio-ribbon, or any other filter media be used in a TT? Has anyone out there used Biohome? (They make some pretty bold claims concerning surface area...and it's ability to lower nitrates from the small passage ways that they claim will create an anaerobic bacteria).

    2. Would a vortex filter be a good idea if used before a TT to remove solids and others debris?

    3. What type of filter media does a "Bakki Shower" use?

    4. What is the recommended MINIMUM height of a TT? What is the maximum width? Should the max. diameter be somewhere around 10-inches, such as a 10-inch PVC pipe?

    Thanks in advance,
    Mitch
    My Opinion - Worth What You Paid For It...


    chiselchst
    Novice

    Feb 28, 2004, 7:59 PM

    Post #225 of 312 (124400 views)
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    Re: [chiselchst] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    If nitrates can be stripped from the water by the aeration process, I would be VERY curious to see how these de-gassing columns would work. One could do practically the same thing by pumping air, counter flow, up through a TT. It wouldn't that diffucult to fab up. Find a continous duty blower might be difficult though...

    My hunch says a degassing column would work well. But that's just a guess.

    (I work in a large refinery, and we have several processes such as this. I'm going to look in to this process, and see if I can come up with an idea for something similar.


    http://www.aquaticeco.com/...duct.detail/iid/7857

    http://www.aquaticeco.com/...duct.detail/iid/7855

    Mitch
    My Opinion - Worth What You Paid For It...


    BillyBoy
    Novice


    Mar 1, 2004, 6:25 PM

    Post #226 of 312 (108352 views)
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    Re: [chiselchst] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Yes any bio media I imagine would be OK. Biohome - porous ceramic? Biggest problem is clogging. Any solids in there and you have a clogged bio ball, and then you have hetertrophs and things turn ugly. Look at it wrong and it clogs, goodbye massive surface area. At least, for anything beneficial - inside all hell could be breaking out.

    TTs I am very wary of. You cannot have any organics (normally solids) else heterotrohic bacteria which grow in these anaerobic situations WILL form and you don't want these anywhere in your system. So your TT water MUST be clean (of solids and even dissolved organics). So, a vortex is a good idea but not sufficient - some solids smaller than 800 microns will NOT settle out, and some denser solids smaller than 500 microns will also not settle out. Normally below 200 microns or so the mass of solid is very small and so less dangerous. It's the bigger (and we're talking really small here) stuff that counts and can cause problems. Beside, vortexes to be efficient must be HUGE with good long retention times. An Answer will do the trick for mechanical filtration - a sand filter will not - quite possibly it's the worst thing for it. go to www.happykoi.co.za for my article on sand filters and why they're evil and MUST all be killed!

    Minimum height of a TT is not a relevant question. Retention time is the question you're actually asking - the physical size will determine the flow rates and hence the retention time. I think, and I stand under correction here, that the longer the better - I don't think yuo can do any damage by keepinf it for longer than required - and my gut instinct is that 30 minutes or longer is about the minimum to go for. Anaerobic processes tend to take longer than aerobic ones.

    I'm sure others will comment and shoot me down - great - let's hear arguments for and against. The more the better!

    BillyBoy


    BillyBoy
    Novice


    Mar 1, 2004, 6:39 PM

    Post #227 of 312 (108352 views)
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    Re: [chiselchst] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Thanks for the reference to the website - fabulous site!

    I'd be interested in your findings. Kaldnes K1 seems to remove nitrates by mature bacteria colonies in the centre of the wheel - where it's largely anaerobic apparently (!). Bio film is chaotic at the best of times and it seems that Kaldnes K1 somehow optimises the nitrate removal process - I don't yet fully understand it myself.


    chiselchst
    Novice

    Mar 3, 2004, 10:37 AM

    Post #228 of 312 (108335 views)
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    Re: [Mark] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    This thread is very fascinating to me. I appreciate all of the feedback from those that have TT's. I do have some questions (again): * Can the de-nitrification process (to nitrites) occur in sunlight, or shaded sunlight? I have seen many marine aquariums in fish stores and elsewhere operate them in the light (I wanted to build two 5 ft. TT's using clear acrylic so I can watch the flow). That will contain roughly 6,000 bio-balls each, for a planned 2,000 gallon pond. * If the removal of nitrates is from the de-gassing process as stated later in this thread, then how does Mark's filter which contains roughly 35 to 50 gallons of bio-balls remove nitrates when salt water aquariums with a similar height do not remove nitrates? (I believe him that it does - just trying to understand more). It only seems to about 18 inckes tall. Surfing the web, aquarium owners are getting rid of bio-balls due to high nitrates. * Has anyone ever used "Ultra Bio Media" in their TT's? It is a plastic about one half inch by one half in long. It would seem to make a good media for a TT (750 sq ft area per cu ft.), but might clog easier? In the US, I found Bio-Pin-Balls for about .05 cents each, or $30 for 1 cu ft/7.5 gallons here: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/...id=6&pCatId=4161 Here is a link to the "Ultra Bio Media": http://www.koistuff.com/...ntId=45&catId=45 Any input appreciated, Mitch
    My Opinion - Worth What You Paid For It...


    goldy
    User

    Mar 5, 2004, 5:24 AM

    Post #229 of 312 (108314 views)
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    Re: [BillyBoy] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    hi billyboy
    i would agree with you about keeping any fillter clean, but about tt not being able to run with any organic's in them ?
    last year mid summer i was unable to clean my fillter for two month, no water changes no uv, still regular feeding, when i cleaned the fillter it stunk the two inch sump at the bottom of the tank was full of crap i had to walk away to take breath's it was that bad, any way the uv was back on line two week's later i could see my fish again all healthy and fine , another week i don't know they could of all been floating? personally i like to think it was the oxygen rich water the fillter recieves?

    Minimum height of a TT is not a relevant question.
    i think it is , dwell time isn't a factor ? thats down to flow rate and gravety ,
    like mitch seide about adding air volume for degassing purpose is a good point,
    most of the tt are high and thin which would create there owne updraft like a chimney or lift shaft?
    30 miniuts retention ? mines about 12 second's
    the manufacturers of floclor also state that the inside of the ring are colonized by anorobic bacteria and the outer by arobic bacteria WHY?
    still good point's though
    all the best
    goldy


    BillyBoy
    Novice


    Mar 5, 2004, 8:28 AM

    Post #230 of 312 (108306 views)
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    Re: [goldy] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hey Goldy,

    We're at cross purposes here it seems. My understanding is this: TT's rely on the anaerobic process for their efficiency. As such, the longer the retention time, the better - the less oxygen will be present thank to any aerobic bacteria that happen to be in the system. Yes, the media you refer to can colonise both type of bacteria - but then any media can. The conditions are that which determine which bacteria develop.

    With reference to your smelly filter the only thing I think that may have saved your fish would be the relatively small volume of water passing through the TT - I am assuming this - passing into a large body of water where the poisons (the stuff that you smell kills fish - it's hydrogen sulphide amongst others) wwere diluted to a point of low concentration and then diffused out the pond?

    My point of view though is that bad smells in a Koi pond, anywhere, are a sign that there's trouble. You don't get bad smells in nature unless there's a rotting process taking place - as in a carcass, but these disappear quite quickly. So if someone has bad smells it normally indicates to me that not enough purging/cleaning is taking place - as you say - leave it for a while and then things get really ugly.

    With regard to air blow back, yes it will help drive off the nitrogen - assuming that we're only tallking about the nitrification process, and assuming that's completed. If your residence time is 12 seconds, I would then assume that your turnover is pretty high which would help the performance. But if you're injecting air, then the bacteria would have very little time to operate - hence the higher turnover required.

    This assumes that the water has no oxygen in it when it enters the column.

    now, if you have solids entering the column and you have anaerobic conditions, you end up with sludge that hetertrophic bacteria thrive in and all osrts of uncontrolled poisonous organic reactions will take place - the bad smells you experienced. TT's in other words must be fed crystal clear water so that the only reaction that can take place is the nitrification one - at least this is my understanding. You want control over exactly what's happening and when you have organics (solids) in anaerobic circumstances you have a situation that you can't control.

    Do I make sense?

    Billy Boy


    goldy
    User

    Mar 6, 2004, 10:42 PM

    Post #231 of 312 (108295 views)
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    Re: [BillyBoy] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    hi billyboy
    Crazy now im confused.
    the reason i mentioned this insident was to get across that the tt would fair just as well as, if not better than any othere filter with organics in,
    not an ideal situation but unavoidable at the time,
    i have one trickle filter preceeded by a vortex pond turnover once every ninety min's dwell time about twelv seconds amonia always zero nitrite always zero.
    i have alway's thought that my tt did not reduce nitrate becouse of algy bloom and blanket weed, as i never tested for it, i bought one three weeks ago, it,s been 12.5 ever since allthough temp is only 7 degree's so now im not shure ?.
    im not into aquariums but i think your linking the two , if im not mistaken aquariums deoxygenat the water like you say with very slow dwell time then into a tt where the anaerobice prosses takes place?
    pond tt some are preceeded by submerged filters , some are stand alone?
    so is it bacterial or degassing that removes nitrate?
    see why you could'nt have a 30 miniut dwell time in a ttBlush.
    i favoure the degassing prosses myselfCrazy
    i have read this thread three times now and if i am not wrong marks nitrate started to reduse streight away as soon as he added NEW bioball's not long enough for bacteria to colonize the media in my opinion so this is another reason i favour the degassing prosses.
    all the best
    goldy


    BillyBoy
    Novice


    Mar 7, 2004, 8:22 AM

    Post #232 of 312 (108291 views)
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    Re: [goldy] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Goldy, I see what you mean - finally - sorry -I"m a bit slow. The light has clicked on - I will make some investigations as to what actually happens. Although your pond temp is very low, so there is likely to be little ammonia produced in any event which might account for the constant steady reading of 12.5. I'll revert when I have more info...because if degassing works, you would need no bio media in your TT unless this was the sole source of bio filtration. I'll check it out.

    BillyBoy


    goldy
    User

    Mar 8, 2004, 12:19 AM

    Post #233 of 312 (108281 views)
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    Re: [BillyBoy] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    hi billyboy
    i enjoy chating to you so please don't take this the wrong way Tongue.you have a good theiry knowlidge of nitrogen cycle, but you seem to be lacking in practickle hand's on experiance?
    you want to promote the nexux & k1 ?
    you are looking for answer's to make a better filter
    have you ever kept fish.
    honesty is the best policy.
    i believe in calling a spade a spadeTongue
    hope to chat to you soon
    all the best
    goldy


    BillyBoy
    Novice


    Mar 8, 2004, 7:04 AM

    Post #234 of 312 (108277 views)
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    Re: [goldy] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hey Goldy,

    I have kept aquarium fish for over 20 years, marine and freshwater. With varying degrees of success/failure depending on how you look at it I suppose. I have built and tested every filter imaginable - but TTs are something relatively new - to me anyway - the closest thing to a TT that I have used - and I assume a TT to be a trickle - not a gushing torrent of water - is a column filter - but that had a residence time of close to your 12 seconds, probably even less - back then I never measured these or wrote them down. I have decided to graduate to Koi, which is a very different thing altogether - and the filter systems that I have come across, in theory, do not match the required task at hand. So yes, I am biased towards the Nexus and Answer - purely from a theoretical point of viw - as well as being practically recommended by highly regarded Koi keeping people.

    But I haven't had a satsifactory explanation on nitrate removal yet. Yes, Kaldnes does the job but I want to know why. This is why I've been following this thread - but I haven't yet seen a satisfactory answer that fits in with the theoretical data. As I don't yet have my pond I suppose the only way I'm going to get it clear is to experiment with it myself.

    But I have to say that in all my years, solids removal I have found to be not only important but absolutely critical to the performance of any filter system. This is why the Answer excites me so - it should eliminate any bad smells (rotting) from any stage in my pond. I set my standards very high, although the less work to keep them the better as far as is possible. My tanks run clean but it is a lot of work to keep them this way - solids are the biggest problem and I don't like rotting crap in my tanks!

    All happy and clear?

    Billy Boy


    goldy
    User

    Mar 10, 2004, 6:48 PM

    Post #235 of 312 (108261 views)
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    Re: [BillyBoy] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    hi billyboy
    happy and clearBlush.
    i cant comment on the nexus and k1, i think the answer is a brilliant idea but not infalable,
    haveing less crap in the fillter is better, but i think you would still have to clean them just as often, so i prefere simplisity, getting nitrate down to zero would be a great help ileaviating string algy which is a big problem in crapping up the filters ceirtanly in my case.
    given the choyce in reducing nitrate by deoxygenating or oxygenating the water through the fillter i would choose the latter.
    i will post if there is any significant changes in my nitrate readings when weather warms up,
    best of luck with your experiments
    goldy


    goldy
    User

    Mar 22, 2004, 12:52 AM

    Post #236 of 312 (107946 views)
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    Re: [BillyBoy] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    i have two pumps running my fillter one stopped working a few days ago, so i altered the spray bars to get an even distribution over the media allthough i was only getting 800 galls apposed to 1600 i was'nt conserned becouse the temp was still low, just started feeding wheatgerm once aday.
    all water peramiter's ok, nitrate was 6mgl probably down to more algy growth? i thought. [ still could be ]
    took a nitrate reading today zeroSly,
    i rigged up an extra fillter, hlf size[ 20 gall] of my main one, sterilized some old media from a previus pond, fitted the pump running about 400 gals, tempriture's up to 9 now,
    neary t shirt weatherCool
    see how it goes finger's crossed,
    all the best goldy


    asvin.b
    Novice

    May 10, 2004, 11:37 AM

    Post #237 of 312 (107056 views)
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    Re: [BillyBoy] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hello there,

    I'm from Mauritius and to be honest with you guys, bioballs are very expensive and difficult to get down here. I have to make a TT for my pond which i am going to add to my already existing bio filter. I was wondering if I could used PVC pipes, 1 cm to 1.5 cm in diameter, the white one cut into small parts of 2 cm covering an area of 1 feet by 1 feet witha depth of 1.5 feet. What do you think? will it work as a TT media. please advise? Thanks.

    Asvin.b


    dttk
    Veteran

    May 11, 2004, 6:36 AM

    Post #238 of 312 (106995 views)
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    Re: [asvin.b] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    asvin, yes that'll work too. In fact, any old hair-curlers, rocks or shell can also be used in a TT. The width of 1ft is ok but the depth of 1.5ft is abit short. Have at least 3ft of depth and the TT should work well. Remember to have enough holes for air to enter and leave. Smile
    Always friendly :)


    khaku2
    Novice


    May 12, 2004, 6:46 AM

    Post #239 of 312 (106915 views)
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    Re: [dttk] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    ive heard that rocks or even old concrete fountains work really good, correct me if im wrong.
    im using a poiece of fountain the stick part that holds the bowl that over flows with water, and ever since ive done that my pond water is really clear





    Warning : This khaku2 has made a great number of posts in this forum and most of them are posted just for the sake of posting. You may wish to ignore his post if you are not sure whether what he posted is right or wrong.



    dttk
    Veteran

    May 12, 2004, 7:27 AM

    Post #240 of 312 (106911 views)
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    Any irregular surface that is continuously in contact with water and air is good media for TT. Smile
    Always friendly :)


    khaku2
    Novice


    May 12, 2004, 5:19 PM

    Post #241 of 312 (106887 views)
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    then i guess im doing the right thing, thanks Dttk





    Warning : This khaku2 has made a great number of posts in this forum and most of them are posted just for the sake of posting. You may wish to ignore his post if you are not sure whether what he posted is right or wrong.



    chiselchst
    Novice

    Jun 19, 2004, 6:05 AM

    Post #242 of 312 (105559 views)
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    Lee's Bio-Pin Balls are available (here in the USA?) for 0.054 cents each, or $30 dollars USA for 1 cu ft, or 7.5 gallons. That's the large balls, that are 1 5/8" in size, 74 to a gallon.

    Are these available where you are?

    Trying to help...

    Mitch
    My Opinion - Worth What You Paid For It...


    poobs
    User

    Jan 23, 2005, 4:47 PM

    Post #243 of 312 (99594 views)
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    Re: [Doc Conrad] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Guys/Gals

    Before I drown in this green soupMad

    I have 2500 gal pond

    Filter consisits of 100 Gal. of mainly japanese matt with about 2000 gal flow thru it. The design is comonly known as the Skippy filter.

    How large a Trickle Tower would I need to suplement the above filter???.

    Would any home made or less expensive media work??

    ThanksSmile


    DocRodConrad
    User

    Feb 11, 2005, 3:20 AM

    Post #244 of 312 (99304 views)
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    Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post

    I have been studying the science aspect of how trickle towers reduce nitrates (and nitrites) for many years through many careful studies of my own, most of them unpublished. Unpublished because until I understood the mechanism, I did not want to say any more about the subject.

    I don't know nor care whether the nitrate conversion is due to anerobic or aerobic bacteria, the point is that it really doesn't matter anyway, whether the bacteria form is aerobic or anerobic.

    So let's get to the key points without any more chaotic discussions.

    The way trickle tower filters, or shower filters, or well aerated submerged media filters get rid of nitrates is to adequately degas the variety of nitrogen oxides that are formed from nitrate and nitrite conversion. That is why the media needs to have good air contact, the nitrogen oxides must escape into the air for the nitrogen to leave the water. If the nitrate or nitrite conversion occurs in submerged media that is not well aerated, the nitrogen oxides which are the product of bioconversion get dissolved in the water to react to make more nitrites and nitrates.

    There is a chemical equilibrium between the chemicals nitrate, nitrite, and nitrogen oxides in the water. This equilibrium is promoted by the bioconversion bacteria. However, to drive the equilibrium toward less nitrate (and nitrite which is in chemical equilibrium with nitrate), the nitrogen oxides must be removed by the aeration process of degassing the products of biofiltration. It is no wonder that directly degassing these nitrogen oxides by having the bacteria in contact with air is a lot more efficient than even strong aeration of submerged media.

    If you don't understand this explanation, ask questions. If you don't believe my explanation, I don't care, this old research chemist has spent at least 2000 hours researching the subject through his own research and reading the scientific reports of other researchers who spent millions of dollars tracking down the answers. So if you don't agree with lots of reserach and researchers, that is your perogative, you can have any opinion you want about it on a public message board. But don't expect me to argue with you about the science, I spent way too much time and energy to make sure I understand it.

    By the way, there is another scientific "kicker" to this subject. It is the effect of trace minerals. If you don't have them in the pond, or in the water, or in the biofiltration media, you won't get the low nitrates from the trickle towers and shower filters. Apparently the trace minerals affect the equilibrium or the efficiency of the biofiltration bacteria, I have NOT figured out which the trace minerals help do the work yet. But stay tuned, in few more years I will have figured that one out, too.

    And, by the way, thanks so much for keeping this wonderful thread alive all these years while I was trying to figure out the science of it.
    Roddy Conrad, Charleston, WV, USA


    poobs
    User

    Feb 11, 2005, 3:48 AM

    Post #245 of 312 (99307 views)
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    Doc

    Thanks for replying and for the information. I wasn't at all trying to get on your case. I was just peed off at my green soupCrazy

    The flame on top of my post was an accident.

    Any way..I've since found a nice plan/ article for a trickle tower that I will hopefully build.

    Most important however I cleaned all organic junk from my pond consisting of about 1 55gal drum full of pea gravel, leaves and one dead fish.

    I also did an actual measurement of my pump flow and found it woefully under volumeBlush

    Hopefully my green water problems are over

    My family now loves my pond Smile


    koiguyoz
    Koi Kichi


    Feb 11, 2005, 6:59 AM

    Post #246 of 312 (99287 views)
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    Re: [poobs] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post

    I stand by my trickle towers that run for each one of my two ponds. The research undertaken by Dr. Roddy Conrad that I've read contain plausible explanations for the hyper efficient nature of the trickle tower.

    Fact
    One empty 4500 litre pond that I had had a algal bloom that only took only week for a trickle tower sized at 300 litres and filled with lava rocks, dacron and bird netting to clear completely right down to the bottom. The water is pumped in at 6000 litres per hour.

    It works right now, after zero cleaning with several 12-15inch koi keeping the water clear.

    The other pond sized at 1000 litres, and has a 150 litre trickle tower filled with the same materials as above, pumped at 2000 litres per hour, has maintained crystal clear water since it's beginning. Huge fish loads were placed on the system without a hint of green water ever coming through. Current occupants number 30 + 4-6inch koi and other goldfish.

    I've used submerged biofilters and never found them to easily take out pea soup green...in fact I might make a trickle tower for my aquarium as well!


    HWONG
    Veteran

    Feb 11, 2005, 1:35 PM

    Post #247 of 312 (99272 views)
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    Re: [DocRodConrad] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post

    Doc, Thanks for dropping in. HAving struggled to keep stable water, I installed a 4 tray 5foot shower system fed by a 12K litre/hr pump. Since then, I have managed to stabilised water quality. Someone said that degassing cannot happen if the water is a shower and not trickled. What is your take on this?

    Another observation I made. During the last 2 weeks, the sun has been extremely strong and weather is dry. I had a sudden "string" algae bloom. Even stopping feeding didnt help and the water was starting to turn green. I decided to increase aeration with 5 airstones powered by a 40 watt hiblow and dumped a liter of boottled bacteria. Two days later, the water is clear.

    Question is; Did the strong sunlight and temperature cause the algae bloom.


    DocRodConrad
    User

    Feb 12, 2005, 12:58 AM

    Post #248 of 312 (99257 views)
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    Re: [HWONG] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post


    In Reply To
    Quote from above: Doc, Thanks for dropping in. HAving struggled to keep stable water, I installed a 4 tray 5foot shower system fed by a 12K litre/hr pump. Since then, I have managed to stabilised water quality. Someone said that degassing cannot happen if the water is a shower and not trickled. What is your take on this? Roddy: I find shower filters are even more effective than normal trickle towers, and have run 20 separate shower filter experiments of my own to collect and understand their construction and scientific basis. The shower filters dependably cycle for me in 10 days or less for ammonia and nitrite, the cycle time for nitrate is highly variable experiment to experiment.

    Quote from above: Another observation I made. During the last 2 weeks, the sun has been extremely strong and weather is dry. I had a sudden "string" algae bloom. Even stopping feeding didnt help and the water was starting to turn green. I decided to increase aeration with 5 airstones powered by a 40 watt hiblow and dumped a liter of boottled bacteria. Two days later, the water is clear.

    Question is; Did the strong sunlight and temperature cause the algae bloom. Roddy: When I have an algae bloom when using shower or trickle tower filters, in my own case I have always traced the cause to high phosphates in my city source water. The city engineers here in Charleston, West Virginia, USA, routinely add phosphorus compounds to both kill mussels and to protect metal pipes from rusting. So my source water runs typically 5 to 30 ppm phosphate, a very high level. When the biofilters of algae has consumed the phosphates, the algae goes away, in my case. But this is very situation dependent, the cause of your algae issues may be quite different. In my situation, if I do a large water change with my city source water, I can expect an algae bloom from the high phosphates. So instead of doing water changes, I instead regenerate the water with potassium permanganate. Those practices are quite controversial, compared to the subject of trickle tower and shower filters, which almost everyone agrees are a very good way to filter pond water. So to answer your question truthfully, I don't know exactly what cured the algae problem in the situation you describe. To know for sure would require a bunch of water quality measurements that most folks are not equipped to collect. Meaning extremely accurate measurements of ammonia, nitrate, and phosphate levels. And maybe a few other parameters depending on the situation.

    Roddy Conrad, Charleston, WV, USA


    HWONG
    Veteran

    Feb 12, 2005, 2:40 AM

    Post #249 of 312 (99243 views)
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    Re: [DocRodConrad] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post

    Doc, thanks for your reply. Most of the time we hobbyist merely mimic what others do. At least in this case and from your experiments we know that showers are effective.

    I never did test our piped water aside from PH. Being the lazy me, I am happy that water is now clear!Smile

    Doc, Pls keep up your good work and there will always be detractors to irritate us. You are ok by my books. We all just have to sieve thru all the info and use whatever we feel will help us.


    Bukitbunggakoi
    User


    Feb 23, 2005, 8:49 AM

    Post #250 of 312 (98916 views)
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    Re: [DocRodConrad] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi Doc, Great article. Thanks for the tip. I have a trickle tower I made myself from 2 X 55gallon plastic drum. It works fantastic but every 2 months or so, an algea bloom would occur and I have to repeat the cycle of opening up the top cover and reseeding the filter media. Now I will have to figure out how to create a flow through for the air to disperse the nitrogen oxide and possible CO2 buildup inside the drums. Cheers. Keep posting.


    DocRodConrad
    User

    Feb 24, 2005, 1:58 AM

    Post #251 of 312 (104171 views)
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    Re: [Bukitbunggakoi] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post

    I have three of the 55 gallon plastic drum trickle towers running on my indoor koi pond presently running a very high koi fish load. I put large air stones in the bottom of the plastic drums connnected to air pumps that I leave running all the time. That gives reasonably good degassing to reduce nitrates. However, I installed shower filters early this winter on that indoor pond as well, and the shower filters dropped nitrates to much lower levels, typically 2 to 4 ppm versus 20 ppm for use of only the plastic drum trickle towers.

    The shower filters are large, I will take a picture of that setup and post it here on this thread in about two weeks, tomorrow I have to pack my bag for a ship cruise to the Caribeaan Sea where my wife thinks is a good winter vacation spot, cruise ship stops in the Cayman Islands, Key West in Florida, and a coastal spot in Mexico.

    The indoor pond is a 15 feet diameter above ground swimming pool filled to 40 inches water depth, located in our basement, picture (before adding the shower filters) below:


    Roddy Conrad, Charleston, WV, USA


    Bukitbunggakoi
    User


    Feb 27, 2005, 10:38 AM

    Post #252 of 312 (103998 views)
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    Re: [DocRodConrad] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi Doc, Concerning the Nitrogen Oxide, is it heavier than air?, can this gas be vented naturally without the use of an air pump? Cheers


    Viet01av6
    User


    May 24, 2005, 6:20 AM

    Post #253 of 312 (101880 views)
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    Re: [Mark] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    can this system be put under ground before my main filtration system waterfall, where would i put my pump at then
    Attachments: Picture 018 (Small).jpg (88.8 KB)


    vv
    User


    Oct 21, 2005, 4:51 AM

    Post #254 of 312 (98687 views)
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    Re: [DocRodConrad] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post

    hi doc, how does the shower filters look like? can i see some pics? have some problems with nitrates. its always more than 30ppm.


    larz1
    Veteran


    Oct 21, 2005, 6:27 AM

    Post #255 of 312 (98686 views)
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    Re: [Viet01av6] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    I assume you must be referring to a Bakki Shower system, which is an above ground open air system that would not work in a below ground application (unless you dug a 10' deep pit with a massive sump pump at the bottomTongue). A typical Bakki shower consists of 3 large trays (shaped like a trough) filled with biomedia, with water flowing in a shower spray from top to bottom with large air spaces between the trays. The effect is much the same as a trickle tower but their is no need to add oxygen or vent nitrogen and co2 as it breaths freely. Some people incorporate the principle into their waterfall design with stepped falls feeding each other through lava rock or pea gravel media. I'm considering doing that on mine this winter.


    jasonq
    New User

    Jan 10, 2006, 10:18 AM

    Post #256 of 312 (97573 views)
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    Re: [larz1] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Dear All,

    Your discussion on this Bakki System was at length and depth which I considered investigate seriously since beginning of 2005. After having some confident in the results posted by many of you, I started building my own Goldfish pond (7*2.5*10, about 5000 litres water) with this bakki system (5*2, height of 5.5 ft with 4 trays) and a very simple mechanical and biological filteration (7*3*2) in March for three weeks.

    I overfed the fish for the beginning of two months, readings got hair wired!

    But after July until today, I consistently achieved 3 zeros with ammonia, nitrites and naitrates after tests perform forth nightly.

    I have about 60 Goldfish in the pond, and now I feed them at least twice a day. I intent to add another 30 fish by CNY, and increase the feeding to four times a day; and am happy to post to you the results by March or April to come.

    THANK YOU for your hard works which you have help people like me to enjoy the beautiful fish but healtier fish!

    Jason Q.


    fff
    User

    Feb 1, 2006, 7:32 AM

    Post #257 of 312 (97286 views)
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    Re: [Mark] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi guys,

    In ref to my earlier vertical wet/ dry design, I still cannot achieve zero reading for ammoia, nitrite and nitrate... I dont understand why...

    Jus to check and conclude with you guys, the thumb of rule is to have:

    1) Water to travel thru 18 inches of air before hitting media
    2) Water need to go thru a column of at least 18inches of media.
    3) Water turnover must be more than 3 times the pond volume
    4) Air must be able to flow freely in between T/T so as to enhance the gas exchanges

    Can anyone correct or verify my findings above?
    Thanks.


    dttk
    Veteran

    Feb 16, 2006, 8:19 AM

    Post #258 of 312 (96999 views)
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    Re: [fff] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi, sorry for the late reply. Nos.1 and 3 are doubtful. Firstly, a small gap between water outlet and media would do. More importantly is the uniformity of flow ensuring that there is even contact of down flowing water with all the media. Secondly, a slightly longer contact period between water and media is better. Hence, one cycle per hour is sufficient. Even at this rate, it would appear as a shower instead of a trickle. Thirdly, the higher the media the better. Lastly, open to air all around.

    The ability of the shower or trickle to remove nitrogen containing gases also depends on the type of media and the level of nitrates in the water to begin with. Smile
    Always friendly :)


    fff
    User

    Feb 17, 2006, 1:38 AM

    Post #259 of 312 (96981 views)
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    Re: [dttk] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi Doc,

    Tks for reply.
    If I am planning to use BH, will it be the best choice?


    dttk
    Veteran

    Feb 17, 2006, 3:19 AM

    Post #260 of 312 (96978 views)
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    Re: [fff] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    fff, sorry I'm not in the position to comment on this.Smile All I know is many hobbyist are using BH in their shower system. It's not cheap and hence I'd prefer to wait for more confirmatory results from local hobbyists who are using it. Smile
    Always friendly :)


    neutokoi
    User

    Feb 23, 2006, 11:35 AM

    Post #261 of 312 (96863 views)
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    Re: [vv] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post

    Dear all,
    Found information on filter to reduce nitrate, pls refer to the following address..
    http://o-fish.com/Filter/denitrator.php

    Unfortunately the information is in Indonesian language, just look at the picture, below is the simple explanation:
    - Create a vacum pipe/filter chamber (D) with 1 inlet(A) and 1 outlet(B) (anything as long as vacum, but can be open for maintenance)
    - Make a very long pipe for inlet (C) ( as long as the filter can afford)
    - Bio filter media inside the filter chamber (D)
    - Use a pump to supply water into (A)

    Logic:
    Usually we create a filter and supply a lot of O2 to grow the aerobic (?) bacteria to consume ammonia & nitrite, this filter is designed to grow anaerobic bacteria to consume nitrate.
    - The reason for vacum is not to allow the water to contact with O2 to prevent the growth of aerobic bacteria
    - With the long inlet pipe (A-C), we expect the aerobic bacteria to grow inside the A-C, this bacteria will use-up all O2 in the water, by the time the water reach C, there will be very less or no O2, then the anaerobic bacteria will grow in the bio media (D) and start to consume nitrate.
    - release water back to pond through outlet (B)

    Hope this logic also work in my current pressurised bead filter Angelic, the first half of the bead with aerobic bacteria to convert ammonia -> nitrite -> nitrate, at the same time use up all O2, then the last part of the bead have anaerobic bacteria to consume the nitrate Smile

    Cheers,
    Edo


    Giggleswick
    Novice

    Mar 5, 2006, 10:03 AM

    Post #262 of 312 (96689 views)
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    Hi All,

    I am new to this Koi keeping, also new to this forum. I do wish I find out more before I set the system up.
    Anyway, can anyone help me on the following:

    1. I have a pond without a bottom drain, what is the best way to remove debris off the bottom of the pond.
    2. My nitrate is very high, reading is over 100 plus. At present, I use a multichambers system with vortex via pump feed. Is there a way to convert/modify to adopt into TT system?
    3. At present, I try to pump water into a bucket with holes, back into the pond again, trying mix CO2 into water, but no filter media in the bucket. Would this reduce the nitrate. My main object is to reduce nitrate to zero, therefore hopefully, remove string algre.

    With thanks.

    Giggleswick


    fff
    User

    Mar 5, 2006, 10:39 AM

    Post #263 of 312 (96686 views)
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    Re: [Giggleswick] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post

    2. My nitrate is very high, reading is over 100 plus. At present, I use a multichambers system with vortex via pump feed. Is there a way to convert/modify to adopt into TT system?
    Sure . Read ard, there is some idea in this forum. T/T or Bakki should help.

    3. At present, I try to pump water into a bucket with holes, back into the pond again, trying mix CO2 into water, but no filter media in the bucket. Would this reduce the nitrate.

    IMO, think it serve no purpose... try veggie filter...



    neutokoi
    User

    Mar 6, 2006, 6:45 AM

    Post #264 of 312 (96662 views)
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    Re: [Giggleswick] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi,
    On your issue No.1, is the depth of the pond the same in all area? You can put the pump into the deepest area in the pond to suck the debris into your filter, or you can try to create some good water circulation or water current to bring the debris to the pump that supply water to your filter, you may consider installing some small/aquarium pump to push the debris.
    On your next questions, I will recommend you to put some water plants into the bucket that you mentioned, or in the last filter chamber. Re. the TT design, try to search into this forum with 'TT' as key word, you may find a lot of good reference on how to set-up one.

    Btw, how big is your pond and the koi population?

    Cheers,
    Edo


    Giggleswick
    Novice

    Mar 6, 2006, 3:08 PM

    Post #265 of 312 (96648 views)
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    Re: [neutokoi] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi;
    Thank you all kindly for your reply. I will look into them and make adjustment in my testing before go ahead for final setting.

    The concept of TT. I thought is mixing water with air, that's the reasons I use a bucket with many holes at present. I will put some filter media into it, ie. Jap Mating or some sort. probably starting some good bateria, I hope. Planting in the bucket is not an option, as the final version is not a bucket. I hope to be a big down pipr, say 6" diameter, hiding in one corner. I can imagine the final version will be two levels of water drop, inside a 6" diameter pipe, with holes for air to into/escape, and some sort of overflow and water will come from a home make surface skimmer yet to be finalise.

    The pond is nearly flat. Forgetful of me not to put bottom drain and skimmer in the first place, as I was rushing to do many other DIY jobs around the house at the same time. Is it a good idea to leave the pump to suck anything in, and empty the vortex of the multi-chambers, say once every 2 days, so I can get as much debris off the pond. or it is better to have some sort of protection for the pump, ie, a filter media, then a bigger object won't be able to such up at all. I try to empty the vortex once a day, or every other day, and top up with tap water.

    I have been reading the subject on 'TT' for the last few weeks, but no joy into better understanding. My conclusion at present is water mix with air, into filter media, hopefullu reduce nitrate, therefore no algae. Or is it that simple. My objective is remove algae and have a clear pond. At present, the water is quite clear, probably beacuse of the big UV I installed. But the pond wall and plant bucket in the pond is full of the string algae. Using commercial products will be my last option. Any other options in reducing nitrate??? Any comment will be hopeful indeed.

    Thank you kindly in advance.

    Cheers

    Giggleswick.


    tangigi3
    User


    Mar 8, 2006, 8:57 AM

    Post #266 of 312 (96603 views)
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    Re: [Giggleswick] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi Giggleswick,

    what do you use to move water from your pond to your filter chamber? submersible pump? gravity via side drain?

    lar


    Giggleswick
    Novice

    Mar 9, 2006, 11:47 AM

    Post #267 of 312 (96581 views)
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    Re: [tangigi3] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post

    A 2740l/hr submersible pump.

    Giggleswick


    neutokoi
    User

    Mar 10, 2006, 6:42 AM

    Post #268 of 312 (96556 views)
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    Re: [Giggleswick] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi Giggle,
    Talking about TT, my understanding is somehow similar to you, the good bacteria need a lot of surface area to grow and they need a lot of O2 to convert Ammonia -> Nitrite and then nitrite -> nitrate as final product, thats the reasont they comeup with the concept of TT or BS, we have the media for bacteria to grow, then let the water to contact as much as possible to air to supply O2.
    In this whole long thread is to discuss/prove that somehow this TT also can reduce nitrate, which is scientificly shouldn't be the case, as usually nitrate only be consumed by bad bacteria (that will not grow in the place with O2), or being consumed by plant, but some people did claimed that thier TT can reduce nitrate.

    Coming back to your issue on debris removal and high nitrate, I will recommend you to:
    - pump as much as debris out of the pond to the settlement chamber and empty it as much as possible, with the reduction of debris, you have reduce also the chance of ammonia build-up that at the end will also reduce the nitrate as final product
    - more frequent small water changes, which you can do it at the same time with the above process, emptied the settlement chamber, then top-up with fresh water, if you use tap water, pay attention to the chlorine.
    - Create a simple vegie filter, put a small chamber/container etc near the pond, put a lot of water plant in it, pump in water after the UV into this container and let the overflow from this container back to your pond, hope this plant will consume a lot of nitrate, select plants that is very invasive like water hyacinth or water lettuce, they need nitrate to grow, if you see them grow, it means some nitrate being consume, faster they grow, more nitrate consumed.
    - If your kois are not vegetarian, you can even put the plant in the pond
    - take precausion that there is a possibility that plant introduce some parasite to your fish, some sort of clean-up of the plant may be required
    - Stop or reduce feeding for some time

    Hope you can have the nitrate reduced...SlySly


    Giggleswick
    Novice

    Mar 11, 2006, 11:46 AM

    Post #269 of 312 (96528 views)
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    Re: [neutokoi] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi

    Thank you for your advice.
    No my Koi is not a vegie, they even take the tender leaves of the pond plant. Anyway, I heard one time that the plant in pond won't take as much nitrate as one think. I try to put more plant in the pond, for shading, but the Koi kill most of them.

    Do anyone know if more O2 in pond would reduce nitrate? I have an unused new tank pump (AquaClear 802 Powerhead). I am thinking of feed it via a surface skimmer with "venturi" areation. Just below the water line, this would give more air in the water. I am not sure rather the Koi love it or not. Apart from the Koi, would it help with nitrate? Anyone know?

    Multi-chambers filter, it is necessary to have a air stone in each chamber. help to cycle Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate, would it means more nitrate in pond? I got a feeling that the O2 bubbles would unsettle the debris (rubbish) in the Jap. Mat. in setting, therefore drop to the bottom of the chambers. If this is the case, it will stop the chambers from clogging up. Anyone know further info. on this, or is it that I am dreaming.

    To my suprise, my water is quite clear. But I just can't stop the algre grow, even in cold weather as now, I just clean the pond wall with the bloom last week, as I see the pond this morning, they just start forming again! My last resort is to use commercial product. Can anyone recommend one that works !!!!!

    I do try to clear the water inside the vortex every other day, and topup once a week.

    As I said, I don't have a surface skimmer, I took a long while, but I manage to find a product called "Intex Above Ground Pool Wall Mount Surface Skimmer" that may do the trick. Just order one, I am sure this might work.

    Thank you

    Giggleswick


    neutokoi
    User

    Mar 13, 2006, 8:37 AM

    Post #270 of 312 (96461 views)
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    Re: [Giggleswick] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi Giggles,
    I'll comment only on the queries of whether O2 in multiple chambers to help the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate process and at the end create more nitrate. Indirectly the answer is yes, but the ammonica and nitrite reduced. Don't forget that ammonia & nitrite is more lethal to our kois as to compare with nitrate.

    Others may give additional input for giggles... pleeeeeeeease...

    cheers,
    Edo


    Giggleswick
    Novice

    Mar 13, 2006, 2:17 PM

    Post #271 of 312 (96437 views)
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    Hi Edo,
    Thank you kindly for your comment.
    A friend of a friend tells me over the weekend that a magnet bar (not the commercial wired one) would help to reduce the string algre.
    Any one know more on this topic, or has been using one, can you please comment on this subject?

    Thank you.

    Giggleswick Smile is the way forward .....


    femme_artist51
    User


    Apr 21, 2006, 5:32 PM

    Post #272 of 312 (95664 views)
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    Re: [Mark] High Nitrates Level? Try This! Mark [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi Mark
    I emailed you privately about your trickle tower. We do not have high nitrates and never had any trouble with the water. We do have a low PH.
    I wanted to incorporate your wet dry filtration system. Although we already have two filters for our smaller pond. I was wondering about your system. What is the size of your box. Also did you finally remove the filter mattings, but kept the heavy brush rolls?? I would think that both the filter mattings and both type of other filter material would be helpful. Why did you finally remove the matting??

    The filters that we have are, one 1/2 whiskey barrel with matting, water drops onto the matting and is pumped back out to the pond. We have the water split, some water to this barrel and some to a round holding area above the pond. This water comes up from below the matting, flows throught he matting and then drops over some rocks to a stream and into a plant bog, then into the pond. I was hoping this would be okay. We get lots of algae in the stream. The plant bog is great in the summer. I wonder about the winter, as the plants will die off.

    Thanks, any info would be great. Do I need to filter my mud pond. I was told I didn't need to, just to have oxygen. I also think I need to add more air to my lined pond. Again thanks, Lynda


    goldy
    User

    Apr 30, 2006, 6:02 PM

    Post #273 of 312 (95475 views)
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    Re: [Giggleswick] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post

    HI ALL
    Not been here fore a while but some interesting point have been raised, I have been running a shower type filtration for years and been interested in orp for as long.
    I did get zero nitrates in the shower but this was achieved by a build up of detritus creating anaerobic conditions. But not healthy for the koi.
    The shower is now more open for air circulation with no detritus (crap) to create anaerobic conditions but still zero nitrates.
    It has been said before that the anaerobic conditions live inside the build up of the bacterial layer which I agree with. No crap just filtration.
    Depending on temp light filter media plus a number of other conditions will determine the outcome of the shower.
    If any one is interested in orp, the reading directly below the shower is Ė minus 276 yet the shower is clean?

    John


    zoul
    Veteran

    May 7, 2006, 8:03 PM

    Post #274 of 312 (95349 views)
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    Re: [goldy] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post

    wow my eyes are bleeding now.
    That was fantastic.
    Good to see people are testing stuff properley.
    I wonder if its worth putting on a TT after my veg filter although i don't have any problems with nitrates it might look nice.


    maxek
    Novice

    May 17, 2006, 4:32 AM

    Post #275 of 312 (95191 views)
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    Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post

    One quick question. I have been reading about TT and BS for a very long time. I understand principals but some people say to keep bio media in a dark because light will kill good bacteria. And on the other hand some people say to keep filter open as much as possible to the air. Which one is true??? I have TT running and Do not know what to do. Right now I have kept it in a dark, closed up. Air has a way to get in because it is not air tight. Water temp is 62F.


    koi@kit
    Veteran


    May 17, 2006, 6:40 AM

    Post #276 of 312 (93199 views)
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    Re: [maxek] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post

    hi maxek..

    u r all correct..

    1.bio media expose to sunlight will kill the bacteria on them, its not the light actually, its the UV from sunlight..

    2.media shudnt be air tight, TT bacteria needs a lot of air..

    wat u can do is keep ur media in a container with a lots of small holes on the wall of ur container..
    this way u can keep ur media away from sunlight and can have air exchange with the holes on ur container..


    maxek
    Novice

    May 18, 2006, 4:30 AM

    Post #277 of 312 (93169 views)
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    In Reply To
    hi maxek..

    u r all correct..

    1.bio media expose to sunlight will kill the bacteria on them, its not the light actually, its the UV from sunlight..

    2.media shudnt be air tight, TT bacteria needs a lot of air..

    wat u can do is keep ur media in a container with a lots of small holes on the wall of ur container..
    this way u can keep ur media away from sunlight and can have air exchange with the holes on ur container..

    Thanks.
    I just opened my container as much as possible from the north so I have a lot of air but not sun light.


    larz1
    Veteran


    May 27, 2006, 6:29 PM

    Post #278 of 312 (92992 views)
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    Re: [maxek] Science of nitrate removal in trickle towers [In reply to] Can't Post

    This is one of my favorite threads and one I've learned much from. For a TT or Bakki shower to work well it must be able to breath with virtually no restrictions. This allows plenty of oxygen to get to the water & media (for the bacteria to live) and also allows for degassing of CO2 and other contaminants.
    People use BH media, Lavarock, Kaldness, Bioballs, JMat, Plastic shavings, for media and all experience good results if the system is sized and designed properly. The main difference in design between the two types of systems (TT vs. BS) is prefiltration and flow rate.
    TT systems need to have most if not all solids removed before the water passes through the TT column which need a minimum of 18"-24" of media to be effective and a flowrate of once per hour for the entire pond volume.
    BS systems tend to be taller (more pump hp required) and the turnover rate is much higher (1 1/2 = 2 times per hour), but they do not need to be prefiltered beyond a simple settlement chamber. BS systems use multiple trays with water flowing through open air from one tray to the next. Most of the fine particles are minced and pulverized by the more violent flow and it is digested by the bacteria rather than removed by a filter.
    TT and BS are not so much a "filter" as they are a "digester". They remove contaminants by eating them as food and rendering them harmless.


    Roger89
    User


    Jul 17, 2006, 9:26 AM

    Post #279 of 312 (92101 views)
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    High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    hi guys,

    This question has been bothering me a bit, I hope u guys can contribute your opinions

    I'm wondering why is there a requirement to have spaces between the biomedias for the water to 'oxygenate'? I mean, if we simply put bioballs(which has some space between the 'pins') can't the water oxygenate this way too? Thus, it will also oxygenate better since the water is spread out(more exposed surface) and thin?

    Thanks.

    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    "What is man without the beasts? If all the beasts were gone, men would die from a great loneliness of spirit." - Chief Seattle


    Roger89
    User


    Jul 18, 2006, 5:57 PM

    Post #280 of 312 (92068 views)
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    High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Can anyone answer me please?

    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    "What is man without the beasts? If all the beasts were gone, men would die from a great loneliness of spirit." - Chief Seattle


    Koi38
    Veteran


    Jul 19, 2006, 2:08 AM

    Post #281 of 312 (92077 views)
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    Re: [Roger89] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi Roger,

    Depends what media you're planing to use. For instance a TT or BS, you do need a good supply of O2 for degassing. For submerge filters either japanese matts, bio balls, etc, you need to supply O2 for the benificial bacteria to colonize properly and do their job. With no O2 good bacteria will still colonize but will struggle to keep up converting bad water to good water. Hope this helpsSmile

    rgds,
    Jon

    "DuKu Friendly"
    _____________________________________
    "No one is ever too old to know better"

    http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/Koi38/


    maybank
    Novice

    Jul 26, 2006, 10:27 AM

    Post #282 of 312 (91978 views)
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    Re: [Koi38] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Newbie question on Bakki shower

    1. If it works so well and it is so cheap, why are so many people using alternative filter systems? Looks like at the most you only need a settlement chamber.

    2. Is this statement correct - it provides mechanical, biological and chemical filtration - since users claim crystal clear water with zero of ammonia, nit and nitrate etc.

    3. Where can I get it in Kuala Lumpur?


    Much appreciate it.
    Almost newbie


    maybank
    Novice

    Jul 26, 2006, 10:30 AM

    Post #283 of 312 (91978 views)
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    Re: [Koi38] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Another question since I cannot seem to find the answer here - the various literature claims it is maintenance free.

    1. is it truly maintenance free? If not, how often does it need to be cleaned?

    2. is there a need to do water change with this filter in place?
    Almost newbie


    Koi38
    Veteran


    Jul 26, 2006, 10:39 AM

    Post #284 of 312 (91977 views)
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    Re: [maybank] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post


    In Reply To
    Newbie question on Bakki shower

    1. If it works so well and it is so cheap, why are so many people using alternative filter systems? Looks like at the most you only need a settlement chamber.
    BH media is not cheap as far as I know, well here anyway. That's why I don't have itPirate Some filter media is/are cheaper. Also the running cost to run the BS/BH like turn over rate and daily water changeWink

    2. Is this statement correct - it provides mechanical, biological and chemical filtration - since users claim crystal clear water with zero of ammonia, nit and nitrate etc.
    YES, once the BH have matured.

    3. Where can I get it in Kuala Lumpur?
    I can't help you on that, sorry. Maybe someone will chime in to show you where to get them.

    rgds,
    Jon




    "DuKu Friendly"
    _____________________________________
    "No one is ever too old to know better"

    http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/Koi38/


    Koi38
    Veteran


    Jul 26, 2006, 10:43 AM

    Post #285 of 312 (91976 views)
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    Re: [maybank] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post


    In Reply To
    Another question since I cannot seem to find the answer here - the various literature claims it is maintenance free.

    1. is it truly maintenance free? If not, how often does it need to be cleaned?
    No such pond is maintenace free, IMHO. You still need to clean this type of media once in a whileSmile

    2. is there a need to do water change with this filter in place?
    From what I've read and heard yes, you need daily water change at least 10% I thinkCrazyWink


    rgds,
    Jon

    "DuKu Friendly"
    _____________________________________
    "No one is ever too old to know better"

    http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/Koi38/


    koi@kit
    Veteran


    Jul 27, 2006, 9:24 AM

    Post #286 of 312 (91948 views)
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    Re: [maybank] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    hi Maybank..

    u can get BH from KEPONG kOI at kepong baru.. contact vincent wong (owner) at 012 322 5111


    hi grand master cifu jon..

    very well xplain... the forum is 'dead' without u...heheheheh...

    rgds
    kit


    Slapman
    Novice

    Sep 6, 2006, 3:06 AM

    Post #287 of 312 (91456 views)
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    High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Firstly I would really like to thank DocRodConrad, and a few others who's tireless efforts, make Koi keeping so much easier for all the rest of us.
    I don't think thank you alone will suffice, but Thank You, and thank you for a wonderfull forum.

    Reading through this thread and taking my own situation into consideration, I have a few questions.

    Firstly, I have a 27000 lt Koi pond, I live in South Africa.
    it tapers from 600mm to the bottom drain which is at a depth of 1.8m
    I keep about 70 Koi, sized from 15 cm all the way up to 85 cm
    My filtration comprises of a 3 bag sand filter with a 1,1kw motor (+- 45 000 lt per hour), this is split into 3 returns into the koi pond, 1, is the surface leaf catcher, 2, is the bottom 50mm pvc pipe I plastered into the shallow end and drilled 3mm holes to blow the dirt on the floor of the pond into the direction of the bottom drain, 3 leading up to a 3m head where i have 3 Tetra Clearchoice PF-3 Gravity Filters which I use on an almost TT system, unfortunatly we have continous power outages, so i had to submerse them a little so as they alway have water, they then feed 3 seperate waterfalls, varying in height from 1.6 metres to the lowest being 1.2 metres.

    Secondly, I have devised my own system for a second filtration system, this comprises of a .75 kw motor (+- 30 000 lt per hour), supplying the first chamber, this is a pressure chamber with gravel suspended about 80cm above the ground and I have a bi directional flow below it, it's pushing water upwards through a 20cm bed of fine gravel, then overflowing to the next chamber where i have 3 layers of japanese matting as filtration, and directly below that have about 800 nylon sponges used as biomedia, the water then flows downwards and then upwards again into the the next chamber, here I have placed about 10 meters of 80% shade netting used as bio media once again, above this I have Japanese matting again, then this overflows into the next chamber which comprises of mainly lava rock which I keep in bags to make it easier to clean, about 60kg of lava rock in this chamber, herafter the water flows into the last chamber where i have a veggie garden, used coarse gravel about 30 cm deep and planted mint, the herb mint, which is thriving, then it goes back to the pond via a 30cm waterfall.

    I do a weekly 10% water change, i am fortunate as we have natural sping water.

    I have had The big guys, or the 80cm + koi for 10 years now.
    They are of no special AAA breeding but they are my kids after all.

    My Questions:
    1: I have to keep the TT filters mostly submersed in water as to keep water in, due to the power outages, should I change this and allow all the water to flow out, or leave it as is ? we go through times with 8 hours or more of no power.
    2: I find the use of the sand filter to be quite easy as the backwash makes life a lot easier, whats your thoughts on this, as I have read a lot of bad publicity on sand filters in the Koi enviroment.
    3: My water is crystal clear, I am feeding about 400 grams of food a day, but in the warmer months I am getting slightly high Nitrate levels. Our Summer here goes up to 35 degree's celcius.
    4: Is Mint the ideal plant for the veggie garden for nitrate removal as I find it practical and use it in the kitchen.

    I use a high pressure cleaner to clean the Japanese matting once a week, and do a backwash once a week, thats about it for the cleaning.

    Any advice will be well apreciated, not only on my questions but on the pond as a whole.

    I have had The big guys, or the 80cm + koi for 10 years now.

    Again Great Forum, Thanks for All the Informativie information.



    larz1
    Veteran


    Sep 6, 2006, 4:35 PM

    Post #288 of 312 (91445 views)
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    Re: [Slapman] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Sounds like you have a pretty effective setup if your water is crystal clear and tests are good. I would suggest that you go ahead and eleveate the TT's for maximum effectiveness. If they are partially submerged they cannot degass properly and it creates a space for anaerobic bacteria to grow instead. Even an 8hr power outage (that is a bit extreme isn't it) won't leave the media completely dried out. The biobacteria may suffer a bit of a setback, but it will recover quickly.
    Apart from the pressure chamber your second filter setup sounds a lot like the type used extensively by our members in Indonesia, Malaysia, and Singapore. If you've looked at the Singapore Forum you know there are some very nice Koi being raised that way.
    As far as the veggie filter goes, anything that grows well in it will be great. It is basically no different from a hydroponics bog, so why not grow things in it that are useable by you. Mint likes boggy streambeds in the wild, so it ought to do greatCool


    Slapman
    Novice

    Sep 13, 2006, 1:19 AM

    Post #289 of 312 (91398 views)
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    Re: [Mark] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Thanks for the reply,

    Just a further question,

    What would the effect be if the trickle towers work on a 2 hour on and 2 hour off method, in other words have water flowing through for 2 hours and then no water for a further 2 hours ?

    Has anyone tried this ?

    If so what are the results ?

    If no one has tried this what would you assume the effect would be ?

    Kind Regards
    Slapman


    Koi38
    Veteran


    Sep 13, 2006, 1:58 AM

    Post #290 of 312 (91395 views)
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    Re: [Slapman] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    What would the effect be if the trickle towers work on a 2 hour on and 2 hour off method, in other words have water flowing through for 2 hours and then no water for a further 2 hours ?


    Slapman,

    The TT will be useless. The beneficial bacteria will not colonize at all coz of lack of food for them to thrive. For TT or BS to work efficiently they need constant water flowSmile

    rgds,
    Jon

    "DuKu Friendly"
    _____________________________________
    "No one is ever too old to know better"

    http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/Koi38/


    Roger89
    User


    Sep 13, 2006, 8:55 AM

    Post #291 of 312 (91382 views)
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    Re: [Koi38] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Guys,

    I got a question to ask. These nitrifying bacteria, once they eat those ammonia, nitrites and so on, they will their poulation. But what if these bacteria dies, what do they convert into?

    TQ.

    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    "What is man without the beasts? If all the beasts were gone, men would die from a great loneliness of spirit." - Chief Seattle


    Slapman
    Novice

    Sep 17, 2006, 2:53 PM

    Post #292 of 312 (91261 views)
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    Re: [Roger89] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    @ Roger89 ,I would assume waste, that would get filtered and washed out your system.

    I have setup a trickle tower, working on a 2 hour on and 2 hour off method to see what results i can achieve if any, the trickle tower has been designed to allow an almost free flow of air, holding back a little moisture, it comprises of three 125 lt plastic barrels stacked above each other with only the bottom barrel, being submersed halfway in water with bio balls, the other 2 barrels are also filled half way with bio balls, small 2mm sprayers have been used to equally distribute the water amongst the top bio media, drilled 2mm holes in all the barrels for a free and equal water distribution to the barrels below, and drilled 20 x 2mm holes in the first and second barrel on the sides for air, as it will need to hold moisture, Using it on a test pond and slowly increasing the nitrate levels, they are currently at 10ppm, will get them up, and keep you's updated as to the outcome.

    In theory the bottom barrel should allow for moisture to the above 2 barrels, when the pump is in the 2 hour off mode, lets see what happens in practice. the question here is can aerobic bacteria survive in a moisture type trickle tower and what will the outcome be on the nitrate levels ?



    (This post was edited by Slapman on Sep 17, 2006, 2:56 PM)


    Koi38
    Veteran


    Sep 18, 2006, 1:16 PM

    Post #293 of 312 (91093 views)
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    Re: [Roger89] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post


    In Reply To
    Guys,

    I got a question to ask. These nitrifying bacteria, once they eat those ammonia, nitrites and so on, they will their poulation. But what if these bacteria dies, what do they convert into?

    TQ.


    Hi Roger,

    Beneficial bacteria dies off too. They'll just fall off and get flushed. That's why we recommend cleaning biofilters as well not just the mechanical filtersSmile

    rgds,
    Jon

    "DuKu Friendly"
    _____________________________________
    "No one is ever too old to know better"

    http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/Koi38/


    DocRodConrad
    User

    Jan 31, 2007, 12:30 AM

    Post #294 of 312 (89606 views)
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    Re: [Koi38] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    It is good to see this thread still here for folks to learn.

    A few comments on some of the technical points above.

    Bioballs are an excellent choice for both shower and trickle tower filter designs. They degas better than other media and never need any cleaning. They are also light and easy to move around when the setup needs to be changed.

    Lava rock is the standard choice because lava rock gives a very high biofiltration capacity versus money spent on media, and provides its own trace mineral content. It does give gradual buildup of lava rock "dust" on the bottom of the system.

    I have done approximately 70 separate scientific tests of various shower and trickle tower designs for my own use to build better homemade systems for my own koi. From those tests:

    Shower filters exposed to direct sunlight cycle faster and to higher biofiltration capacity than shower filters with no light. This is apparently because the algae that grows on the shower filter in the sunlight gives extra capacity to absorb and convert ammonia and nitrate.

    Closed side filters such as plastic drums are less efficient at nitrate reduction in direct comparison tests to shower filters with open sides. That is because the degassing of the nitrous oxide and nitric oxide products of nitrite conversion can escape to the air better in an open side structure.
    Roddy Conrad, Charleston, WV, USA

    (This post was edited by DocRodConrad on Jan 31, 2007, 12:45 AM)


    Koi38
    Veteran


    Jan 31, 2007, 5:54 AM

    Post #295 of 312 (89595 views)
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    Re: [DocRodConrad] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hello Doc RConrad,

    Always a pleasure to read your input. We learn a lot from your comments/expertiseSmile


    rgds,
    Jon

    "DuKu Friendly"
    _____________________________________
    "No one is ever too old to know better"

    http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/Koi38/


    charles5392
    Novice

    Mar 9, 2007, 10:38 PM

    Post #296 of 312 (88882 views)
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    Re: [Mark] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Earn money now through online, u may contact me through charles7916@yahoo.com.my or call me at 0165046586, malaysia. I deal with swisscash and abfund investment, got interest, page me. If you all prefer just to join as free member, visit my webpage www.workeasymoney123.741.com/1.html, you got money, u can make ur koi the best home on earth.


    Sunshine
    Koi Kichi

    May 2, 2007, 6:31 AM

    Post #297 of 312 (87930 views)
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    Re: [charles5392] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Charles,
    Go and advertise somewhere else!
    Sunshine


    ayranjim
    User

    May 5, 2007, 3:58 PM

    Post #298 of 312 (87878 views)
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    Re: [Mark] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hello, the Trickle Tower is the best that I have used! I recomend them to anybody! I notice that they are so SIMPLE that they seem to be hard for people to understand how they work! I have seen in many places that WATER TREATMENT PLANTS also use this system for water purification, although they are not in the form of towers! What I feel is important for a better understanding of these systems is that we are giving a good enviroment to the GOOD bacteria! So to some degree we must STOP thinking koi ( for a moment) and think BACTERIA!!!!


    goldminer
    Novice

    Dec 17, 2007, 10:32 PM

    Post #299 of 312 (84297 views)
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    Re: [ayranjim] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

     
    Bacteria have a wide range of environmental and nutritive requirements.


    Most bacteria may be placed into one of three groups based on their response to gaseous oxygen. Aerobic bacteria thrive in the presence of oxygen and require it for their continued growth and existence. Other bacteria are anaerobic, and cannot tolerate gaseous oxygen, such as those bacteria which live in deep underwater sediments, or those which cause bacterial food poisoning. The third group are the facultative anaerobes, which prefer growing in the presence of oxygen, but can continue to grow without it.


    Bacteria may also be classified both by the mode by which they obtain their energy. Classified by the source of their energy, bacteria fall into two categories: heterotrophs and autotrophs. Heterotrophs derive energy from breaking down complex organic compounds that they must take in from the environment -- this includes saprobic bacteria found in decaying material, as well as those that rely on fermentation or respiration.


    The other group, the autotrophs, fix carbon dioxide to make their own food source; this may be fueled by light energy (photoautotrophic), or by oxidation of nitrogen, sulfur, or other elements (chemoautotrophic). While chemoautotrophs are uncommon, photoautotrophs are common and quite diverse. They include the cyanobacteria, green sulfur bacteria, purple sulfur bacteria, and purple nonsulfur bacteria. The sulfur bacteria are particularly interesting, since they use hydrogen sulfide as hydrogen donor, instead of water like most other photosynthetic organisms, including cyanobacteria.


    Bacteria play important roles in the global ecosystem.

    The ecosystem, both on land, air and water, depends heavily upon the activity of bacteria.
    The cycling of nutrients such as carbon, nitrogen, and sulfur is completed by their ceaseless labor.


    Organic carbon, in the form of dead and rotting organisms, would quickly deplete the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere if not for the activity of decomposers. This may not sound too bad to you, but realize that without carbon dioxide, there would be no photosynthesis in plants, and no food. When organisms die, the carbon contained in their tissues is not available for most other living things. Decomposition is the breakdown of these organisms, and the release of nutrients back into the environment, and is one of the most important roles of the bacteria.


    The cycling of nitrogen is another important activity of bacteria. Plants rely on nitrogen from the soil for their health and growth, and cannot acquire it from the gaseous nitrogen in the atmosphere. The primary way in which nitrogen becomes available to them is through nitrogen fixation by bacteria such as Rhizobium, and by cyanobacteria such as Anabaena, Nostoc, and Spirulina. These bacteria convert gaseous nitrogen into nitrates or nitrites as part of their metabolism, and the resulting products are released into the environment.


    Some plants, such as liverworts, cycads, and legumes have taken special advantage of this process by modifying their structure to house the basteria in their own tissues. Other denitrifying bacteria metabolize in the reverse direction, turning nitrates into nitrogen gas or nitrous oxide. When colonies of these bacteria occur on croplands, they may deplete the soil nutrients, and make it difficult for crops to grow.


    Denitrification
    is the process of reducing nitrate and nitrite, highly oxidized forms of nitrogen available for consumption by many groups of organisms, into gaseous nitrogen, which is far less accessible to life forms but makes up the bulk of our atmosphere. It can be thought of as the opposite of nitrogen fixation, which converts gaseous nitrogen into a more biologically available form. The process is performed by heterotrophic bacteria (such as Paracoccus denitrificans, Thiobacillus denitrificans, and various pseudomonads) from all main proteolytic groups. Denitrification and nitrification are parts of the nitrogen cycle.


    Denitrification takes place under special conditions in both terrestrial and marine ecosystems. In general, it occurs when oxygen (which is a more favorable electron acceptor) is depleted, and bacteria turn to nitrate in order to respire organic matter.

    Because our atmosphere is rich with oxygen, denitrification only takes place in some soils and groundwater, wetlands, poorly ventilated corners of the ocean, and in seafloor sediments.

    Denitrification proceeds through some combination of the following steps:
    nitrate Ā® nitrite Ā® nitric oxide Ā® nitrous oxide Ā® dinitrogen gas
    Or expressed as a redox reaction:
    2NO3- + 10e- + 12H+ Ā® N2 + 6H2O

    Denitrification is the second step in the nitrification-denitrification process, the conventional way to remove nitrogen from sewage and municipal wastewater. It is also an instrumental process in riparian zones for the removal of excess nitrate from groundwater contaminated by fertiliser use.


    Direct reduction from nitrate to ammonium (a process known as dissimilatory nitrate reduction to ammonium or DNRA) is also possible for organisms that have the nrf-gene. This is less common than denitrification in most ecosystems as a means of nitrate reduction.


    Reduction under anoxic conditions can also occur through process called anaerobic ammonia oxidation (Anammox).

    Anammox
    -acronym for anaerobic ammonium oxidation- is a recent addition to the knowledge on the nitrogen cycle. In this biological process, nitrite and ammonium are converted directly into dinitrogen gas. This process contributes up to 50% of the dinitrogen gas produced in the oceans. It is thus a major sink for fixed nitrogen and so limits oceanic primary productivity. The overall catabolic reaction is:


    NH4+ + NO2- Ā® N2 + 2H2O.


    The bacteria that perform the anammox process belong to the bacterial phylum planctomycetes, of which Planctomyces and Pirellula are the best known genera. Currently four genera of anammox bacteria have been (provisionally) defined: Brocadia, Kuenenia, Anammoxoglobus (all fresh water species), and Scalindua (marine species). The anammox bacteria are characterized by several striking properties: they all possess one anammoxosome, a membrane bound compartment inside the cytoplasm which is the locus of anammox catabolism.

    Further, the membranes of these bacteria mainly consist of ladderane lipids so far unique in biology. Of special interest is the turnover of hydrazine (normally known as rocket fuel, and poisonous to most living organisms) as an intermediate. A final striking feature of the organism is the extremely slow growth rate: the doubling time is nearly two weeks!


    The application of the anammox process lies in the removal of nitrogen in wastewater treatment. Instead of the conventional nitrification-denitrification process, only half of the nitrogen has to be oxidized partly to nitrite. For the enrichment of the anammox organisms a biofilm system seems to be especially suited in which the necessary sludge age of more than 20 days can be ensured.


    Other possibilities are Sequencing Batch Reactors (SBR) or gas-lift-loop reactors using granular sludge. The cost reduction compared to conventional N-removal is considerable; the technique, however, is still young. The first full scale sludge-water treatment plant using the biological process of anammox was built 2000 in Germany (Hattingen). As of 2006 there are three full scale processes in The Netherlands. One on a municipal wastewater treatment plant (in Rotterdam and one on an industrial treatment plant (tannery) and one full scale application using SBR at the waste water treatment plant in Strass, Austria.


    Aquaculture nitrogen waste removal: See--> United States Patent 7082893


    (This post was edited by goldminer on Dec 17, 2007, 10:37 PM)


    Roger89
    User


    Dec 18, 2007, 4:28 AM

    Post #300 of 312 (84267 views)
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    Re: [goldminer] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Good post goldminer. Very educative Smile

    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    "What is man without the beasts? If all the beasts were gone, men would die from a great loneliness of spirit." - Chief Seattle


    goldminer
    Novice

    Dec 18, 2007, 5:37 AM

    Post #301 of 312 (102886 views)
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    Re: [Roger89] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post


    In Reply To
    Good post goldminer. Very educative Smile



    Thank you Sir. I am nothing more than a tiny fry here, compared to the big fish in this realm.

    Most bacteria measure from 0.2 - 0.3 microns in diameter and can be seen only through a microscope (1 micron equals 0.001 millimeters), or about 1/25,000 of an inch across.

    Lower grades of Diatomite rock (not to be confused with pure grades of friable/soft commercial filter type diatomite) is primarily composed of the fossilized skeletal remains of microscopic single-celled aquatic plants called diatoms (algae).


    Fresh water diatom skeletal remains are composed of ďamorphousĒ (not cancer causing) silicon dioxide (that silica, in this case = opal). Diatoms skeletal framework is generally tubular in shape, from 5 to 100 microns in size, light, rigid, exceptionally porous, and this grade of Diatomite rock can generally hold 1 to 1.3 times its weight in water.


    Consequently, in my humble opinion, as a bio-filtration (bacteria housing media for aqua-culture purposes), certain forms of Diatomite rock is far superior to any existing aqua-culture bio-filter housing, man made or otherwise.
    Attachments: diatoms copy.JPG (71.6 KB)


    goldminer
    Novice

    Dec 18, 2007, 12:25 PM

    Post #302 of 312 (102865 views)
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    Re: [Roger89] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    The best DIY artificial (man made) bacteria-housing-media I have had experiance with is heavy duty nylon pot scrubbers.
    Which, are neutrally buoyant (at the the ones I have used).
    Depending on their size, they have 150 to 300 times the inner/outer surface area of bio-balls.
    With a little digging, they can be found wholesale @ very inexpensive prices for bulk lots.
    I have read of some folks using them for 10 years & still going strong.
    Their color will fade, over the years, but so-what.
    Attachments: Nylon pot scrubber bio-ball.JPG (87.0 KB)


    goldminer
    Novice

    Dec 25, 2007, 10:05 PM

    Post #303 of 312 (102713 views)
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    Re: [goldminer] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    http://tal.ifas.ufl.edu/...ns.htm#Water_Quality_

    A whole library of very good info on large scale commercial aquaculture & pond water quailty control.


    chanys
    Novice

    Dec 29, 2007, 8:59 PM

    Post #304 of 312 (102569 views)
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    Re: [goldminer] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post


    In Reply To
    The best DIY artificial (man made) bacteria-housing-media I have had experiance with is heavy duty nylon pot scrubbers.
    Which, are neutrally buoyant (at the the ones I have used).
    Depending on their size, they have 150 to 300 times the inner/outer surface area of bio-balls.
    With a little digging, they can be found wholesale @ very inexpensive prices for bulk lots.
    I have read of some folks using them for 10 years & still going strong.
    Their color will fade, over the years, but so-what.


    Brother Goldminer, do you have any idea where can we buy this in KL? I have search few giant mall but can not find one :(


    goldminer
    Novice

    Dec 29, 2007, 9:54 PM

    Post #305 of 312 (102567 views)
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    Re: [chanys] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Sadly, I have no idea where you might find nylon or monofiliment mesh pot scrubbers / scour pads in kuala Lumpur.
    Moreover, if you buy RETAIL, they will cost more.
    Best price is wholesale, if you can find the source.

    In the USA, we have what are called Dollar stores.
    Which sell very inexpensive household items, for $1 each, or per package.
    Which is where I found them.

    I bought a full case from one of these Dollar stores.
    (see attachment)

    The shipping label was still on the cardboard case.
    From that, I found who supplied them to the Dollar stores, on the west coast USA.
    Which is:

    http://www.koleimports.com/

    There, I found -----> Item # OA231 20 Pk Colored Scouring Pads

    Which, are very inexpensive, if bought in case lots.
    (20 per pack, for less than I paid for 8 per pack, by the case)

    However, minimum order is $100 (usd) + shipping.

    If you have any area in KL that has cheap DISCOUNT stores, for very inexpensive household items.
    I would try there. If you can find them, you may also be able to find who supplies them.
    Which could lead you to the least expensive source available.
    (unless, you import straight from China).

    Sorry, I could not be of more help.
    Good luck in your quest.
    As always, where there is a will, there is a way.


    (This post was edited by goldminer on Dec 29, 2007, 10:15 PM)
    Attachments: Nylon pot scrubbers copy.JPG (59.4 KB)


    chanys
    Novice

    Dec 30, 2007, 9:12 AM

    Post #306 of 312 (102535 views)
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    Re: [goldminer] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    great, really appreciated that, thank you very much, i printed out your attachement and pass it to the RM2 store near my house and ask him to order for me Wink


    norazli
    User

    Dec 30, 2007, 5:27 PM

    Post #307 of 312 (102518 views)
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    In Reply To
    great, really appreciated that, thank you very much, i printed out your attachement and pass it to the RM2 store near my house and ask him to order for me Wink



    Hi chanys

    Keep us posted on the progress.

    Thanks


    chanys
    Novice

    Jan 9, 2008, 10:28 PM

    Post #308 of 312 (102226 views)
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    Re: [goldminer] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    after searching arround, including those hyper market, 1 Dollar Store, hardware store here in KL, found that none of them selling nylon type, I think in Malaysia we have only the steel type pad, so i try my luck to order from the wholesale web given by you, and key in the minimum order of us$100, which is 3 boxes of 48 bag (20 pcs each), then... they contacted me today, quoting me the freight charges is US$482 CrazyCrazyCrazy so my total order will be US$110 + US$482 = US$592 = ~~ RM2000, so i give up.. PiratePirate


    goldminer
    Novice

    Jan 9, 2008, 11:38 PM

    Post #309 of 312 (102224 views)
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    Re: [chanys] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    I would not give up YET.
    Every nylon or monofiliment pot scrubber I have ever seen in USA.
    Were ALL imported from China.
    KL is far closer to China, than USA.Wink

    Suggest you google search Chinese companies that make these things.
    They may be able to tell you where KL, you might find them.
    Or, even ship some to you, FAR cheaper than from USA.
    Worth a try.


    oorah
    User

    May 9, 2008, 3:32 AM

    Post #310 of 312 (99577 views)
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    Re: [Mark] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi Mark

    anyway you can take some pics of your system in all settings to get an overall idea of what you have done.....

    thanks


    akira01
    Novice

    May 18, 2008, 5:27 AM

    Post #311 of 312 (99344 views)
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    Re: High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi, I am a newbie and have read through all 13 pages of TT System. I have a few questions :

    I am asking my contractor to construct a new pond (12 x 8 x 5(depth)) = 3,590 gallons (US) and a filter chamber (4 x 8 x 5(depth)).

    1. Is the filter size OK?
    2. Since this is a new pond, Can I use TT system as recommended by Mark?
    3. If cannot, what should I do first before converting to TT?
    4. I read someone here says that with TT system, I have to change 10% of the water DAILY. Is it true? If not, how frequent?
    5. If there is a blackout (pump), will this TT be a problem?
    6. Should I buy a pump 1.5 or 2 times more than my pond volume if TT system is used?

    Sorry for so many questions as I am very keen to join the koi lover community ;-)

    Please advise. Thanks in advance.


    G Chee
    Novice


    Nov 8, 2010, 4:10 PM

    Post #312 of 312 (67993 views)
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    Re: [Mark] High Nitrates Level? Try This! [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi Mark

    I know you posted this 10 years ago! But your diagram of your wet/dry filter system really intrigues me. I'm thinking of building a new pond and am interested to know if your system is still working and whether it has worked well for you over the past 10 years.

    Cheers

    G Chee

     
     



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