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Ammonia-Zeolite-UV



HWONG
Veteran

Mar 11, 2002, 6:19 AM


Views: 107995
Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

Need advice on 2 issues from our Gurus

a) Ammonia

It is known that Zeolite absorbs ammonia. We are also advised to maintain a certain salt level to kill germs and the like. It is also true that Zeolite will discharge the ammonia when you soak them in a salt solution.Can the 2 routine co-exist and if so what are the safeties to be aware of.

Does UV light have any effect on Ammonia?

b) Cleaning filter mats, brushes.

I am planning to clean the filters by removing the mats, give them a good shake and spray them with pond water. The Good Bacterias are attached to the filetr material but we also need to clean them to rid of nasties. How can we safely remove the harmful debries without shaking off the good bacterias as well.

Thks n Rgds.


Mark
Veteran

Apr 10, 2002, 9:00 AM


Views: 107888
Re: [HWONG] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

Let me try to answer your queries.
  1. Ammonia and Zeolite - if in any instance zeolite is used, you need at least 10% of salt to discharge the ammonia from it. A small amount of salt in the pond is not used to rid bad bugs. Instead, it is used to help the fish in their respiratory intake of water. In my personal opinion, I would recommend that zeolite be moved out of the filter box once the filter system matured.
  2. UV Light has no impact on ammonia registration. A "powerful" one could help to eliminate bad bugs instead.
  3. Clearing and washing the filter media - I recommend that you rinse them in the filter box. They need not be absolutely clean - without stain. What you could do after putting them back to the filter system is to drain off the 1st few litres of water. Side note - if you have to wash the filter box often, then my conclusion is either you are over feeding the fish or the system is under sized.


Hope these info. help.



HWONG
Veteran

Apr 10, 2002, 6:22 PM


Views: 107875
Re: [Mark] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

Thanks Mark for your reply. I had clean out my filter chamber by draining out the water and spraying the mats with pond water. There was a lot of dirt in there. I assume they are the dead algae from the UV treament. This is the first time I am doing it. Right after I did that, I got a viral infection that got me bed ridden for a few days and couldnt eat until today. But my kois are in ship shape. I also observe that the koi shit seems to be floating the last couple of days.

RGds.


doitsu
Novice

Apr 10, 2002, 8:40 PM


Views: 107872
Re: [Mark] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

Hi Mark,

I've been hearing a little about Zeolite. Since my pond is new, my ammonia reading is constantly on the high side. So, perhaps from the little that I've heard, Zeolite can help.

1. Is Zeolite easily attainable from any koi dealer?
2. Do you recommend its usage?
3. Can you please explain more about zeolite?

Thanks a lot


Mark
Veteran

Apr 11, 2002, 5:20 AM


Views: 107862
Re: [doitsu] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

I would not recommend it for long term usage. In short, if you need to use this, it is either your filter system is undersized or your pond is overcrowded with fish.

If the filter system is efficiently set up, you really don't need any "helpers" to keep the ammonia and nitrites under control. At most you only need to buffer the pH(@7~8) with either oyster shells or cockels shells. I would recommend the use of zeolite only when the filter system is new. A new filter system should 'kick in' by the the 4th week and matured by the 8th. By this time, you should move out the zeolite and/or any other form of "helpers" found in the filter system.

Zeolite comes in the form of light brown chippings of various sizes, and is made of hydrated silicates of calcium and aluminium. When used in the fish hobby, it removes the ammoinia from the water which in turn, depletes nitrites.

I don't have 'lobang' for the this, but you could check them out from either Nippon, Mainland or Petsmart in Singapore. Alternatively, send Eric Lim (SKC member) an email and I am sure he will be glad to tell you where to get them at real cheap price.

In conclusion, remember that any amount of registration of ammonia is bad for fish. As the saying goes, if you manage the water well, the water will keep your fish healthy and well.


doitsu
Novice

Apr 11, 2002, 12:04 PM


Views: 107853
Re: [Mark] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the info and I'm residing in Malaysia by the way. Errr., I also have a ph at 9 and I tried bringing it down with ketapang leaves but to no avail. You mean, I just get oyster shells and the ph will automatically come down to 7-8 and stay there??? If so, what's the quantity of shells I need for a 1500 gallon pond?

Thanks.


Mark
Veteran

Apr 11, 2002, 12:35 PM


Views: 107852
Re: [doitsu] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

Ketapang leaves are common introduced to Arowana tank and may not help much in your case. If the pH is consistently this high, the fish will produce excess slime, and will gasp at the surface. Any amount of ammonia registration will easily kill the fish outright. How old is your pond, and it is made of concrete?

Please note that oyster shells and/or cockels shells will not bring down the pH. Coral chips don't either.


doitsu
Novice

Apr 11, 2002, 6:24 PM


Views: 107836
Re: [Mark] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

My pond is nearly 1 month old and yes it's made of concrete. So what do you suggest I do???
And what does oyster shells do???


Mark
Veteran

Apr 12, 2002, 5:07 AM


Views: 107826
Re: [doitsu] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

As a norm, a month's old concerete pond is not be ready to take in fish.

Later part of the hobby, you may come across situation whereby the pH in the water will drop to a level(<6.5) that becomes dangerious to the fish. Hobbyists are advised to buffer the pH in their pond using oyster shells or others, and not wait for that situation to happen.


dttk
Veteran

Apr 12, 2002, 6:13 AM


Views: 107822
Re: [doitsu] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

Hi doitsu, I have a suggestion to bring down your pH from 9. Most ponders will put raw pineapple "skin/peelings" into the pond and soak for a week or so before they add fish into a new concrete pond. This is done to bring down the pH. In your case, try to house the koi temporarily in another tank. Do clean the outside of the pineapple before slicing off the skin. Thickness of skin should be reasonable, i.e not too thin. Distribute them evenly throughout the pond and soak for a few days. Test the pH daily. Make sure they don't clog up your bottom drain. This is just a suggestion. If it works, don't forget to "belanja" us some pineapple tarts...Laugh.
Always friendly :)


Mark
Veteran

Apr 12, 2002, 7:37 AM


Views: 107820
Re: [dttk] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

That's a good suggestion. To check if your pond is reacting to the skin of the friut, your pH should consistently measured 6 and below for at least 14 days. If successful, completely drain out the water and give the concrete surface a good scrub before adding new water.

Good luck.


Mark
Veteran

Apr 12, 2002, 7:40 AM


Views: 107817
Re: [Mark] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

Just one more note.

Alternative to using the skin of pineapples, you may want to use hydrochloric acid to leach your pond.

Good luck.


SMW1
Veteran

Apr 12, 2002, 11:11 AM


Views: 107811
Re: [Mark] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

Hi Guys, I am in the process of building a 25,000 gal pond. It won't be ready until late this year. If I apply G4 to the pond after the blocks have been render, will I still need to worry about fruit skins and lime ?


johnson lee
Veteran

Apr 12, 2002, 12:26 PM


Views: 107805
Re: [Mark] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

Hi

Hope I am not interfering in this discussion. In my opinion, using hydrochloric acid or pineapple skin to lower the pH of a pond is not very good. I would not want to put acid into my pond because it will also affect the KH. The only exception is if it is a new pond and you don't intend to put fishes in until it is fully bleached. as for pineapple skin, if you have a small pond, it may work but for a large one, you may need loads of pineapple skins!Wink

My recommendation would be to use sodium bicarbonate (SD) at 100g/1000 litres. Surprisingly, SD can be used to increase or decrease pH. If your pH is 6 and if you add the right amount, it will go up to 8.4. If your pH is 9 and you add SD, it will bring it down to 8.4. Amazing isn't it?Sly It works both ways.

I hope this info helps.

Rgds

JohnsonSmile


Mark
Veteran

Apr 13, 2002, 4:18 AM


Views: 107789
Re: [SMW1] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

If G4 is the final coat, you properly don't need to leach the pond but best to test it out with pH test kit.


dttk
Veteran

Apr 13, 2002, 5:12 AM


Views: 107786
Re: [johnson lee] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

Hi Johnson, yes you're right...Sly. I've heard that the maximum pH rise no matter how much sodium bicarb you add to a pond is 8.4 . What if you want to bring it down to below 8, say 7.6? I personally prefer a pH less than 8. Smile.
Always friendly :)


Mark
Veteran

Apr 15, 2002, 3:57 AM


Views: 107772
Re: [johnson lee] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

Irregardless of a big or small pond, using Sodium Bicarbonate to leach a new pond is incorrect. Further, it can me very expensive and not achieving the end result speedily. I would recommend the use of baking soda in situation whereby there is a pH crash and the fish are affected by the pH(usually low).


doitsu
Novice

Apr 15, 2002, 4:51 AM


Views: 107768
Re: [Mark] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

Dear JOHNSON, MARK & and DTTK,

Wow friends, it's been a real headache reading all your comments.
I did use fosforic acid and pineapples to soak the pond for a week and then wash the whole pond and fill it up with water.
However, until today the ph is constantly at 9.
I thought the comment about the sodium bicarbonate thing is real great until Mark's comment of course (which I really appreciate). Another question, if I use the sodium bicarbonate thing, can I insert it with the fish in the pond???

Anyway, guys, so my situation is this: How can I lower down my ph without transferring my fish?; because all of them looks so happy and healthy already (for a month now) and I don't want to add additional stress.
What I'm planning to do is wait for the best answer and in the meantime try to get some oyster shells to place in a filter chamber.
Thanks for your help guys. I really do appreciate your thoughts. Cheerio!


dttk
Veteran

Apr 15, 2002, 4:59 AM


Views: 107768
Re: [Mark] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

That's precisely what I meant. There is no way baking soda will bring pH down from 8.4 to lower...Crazy.....and most of us would not want our water to be too hard or pH to be above 8 if possible....Unimpressed . I agree with you Mark Smile. So Johnson, no hard feelings...FrownUnimpressedSmileSly!
Always friendly :)


dttk
Veteran

Apr 15, 2002, 5:12 AM


Views: 107767
Re: [doitsu] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

Hi doitsu, if you want to keep things as they are and so long as the koi are happy, I suppose you could just wait. As the pond matures, pH will drop slightly. However make sure that ammonia is never detected in your water as it is more toxic in high pH conditions. Smile
Always friendly :)


koiboy01
Novice

Apr 15, 2002, 11:06 PM


Views: 107751
Re: [dttk] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

HI,

Another way to leach the lime out of a new concrete pond is to scrub it out with a solution of ACETIC ACID which is VINEGAR in water a couple of times, then empty and fill with clean water ,leave for a day then empty and fill again, and do your water checks and everything should be allright to start adding your koi, but if you are not at all sure add a tester fish and see how it gets on .Thats what I do when I build a concrete pond ,but I also put a waterproof agent in the cement when building the pond and never have any problems.

Koiboy01Smile


doitsu
Novice

Apr 18, 2002, 11:13 AM


Views: 107724
Re: [dttk] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

Hi dttk,

Yeah, I guess that's what I'm going to do and thanks. I do plan to use oyster shells, however, I'm not to certain what it does. What if my ph is 9 and I use oyster shells? Please explain the whole concept to me, please??? Thanks


johnson lee
Veteran

Apr 18, 2002, 12:03 PM


Views: 107720
Re: [dttk] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

SmileHi Dr Tan, Mark and the rest!

No hard feelings on my side. I am still learning everyday from all of you.Cool

Maybe I should clarify what I have said in my earlier message: I am suggesting that comparing leaching the pond with acid or pineapple skin to reduce the pH, I prefer using Baking soda. This is in the context of those who have started putting fishes into the pond and not for new ponds. For new ponds, acid or pineapple skin is OK because there are no fishes yet!Wink

But once there are already fishes, the owner may need to remove the fishes from the pond if acid is used. So to prevent this hassle, I have suggested baking soda which will definitely bring the pH down from 9 to 8.4.

To answer Dr Tan's question, "How to bring it further down to 7.4-7.6?", well from what I understand, over a period of time, the pH will slowly drop as the carbonates in the water is used up and it will balanced itself, unless the pH in your tap water is unusually high to begin with. Most concrete ponds will initially register high pH because of the limestone. But as long as your pH is not above 9.5-10, then one should not be overly concerned because as the pond matures and as the carbonates are used up, the pH will naturally drop.

That is the reason why most ponders are more concerned about pH crashes than high pH! So we use oyster shells, cockles, coral chips, baking soda etc. to buffer the pH of the water. As I have said earlier, once you manage to get your pH reduced to 8.4 using baking soda, it will stay that way and then later on, the pH will start to fall. What is more important is to keep your KH above 120 at any time. I hope what I have said make sense!Sly Comments welcomed.

Rgds

Johnson


dttk
Veteran

Apr 18, 2002, 3:04 PM


Views: 107714
Re: [johnson lee] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

Hi Johnson, I understand what you mean. Thank you. Smile Regarding maintaining KH always above 120ppm, there are some opinions from another BB about the benefits of a lower KH of 80-90ppm. It seems koi grows faster and their gill colour a healthier bright red compared to those kept in harder water. I'm maintaining mine at 80ppm because my tap water is quite soft and I dislike adding baking soda on a regular basis. Smile
Always friendly :)


doitsu
Novice

Apr 18, 2002, 3:45 PM


Views: 107713
Re: [johnson lee] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

Hi Johnson,

When you talk about baking soda, what is it specifically cause I'm afraid I'll buy the wrong thing. Could tell me specifically what it is as well as the name if they do sell them in packets? Any additional information would be helpful.
And one can add them together with the fishes in the pond right???
Thank you, really learned a lot.Crazy


doitsu
Novice

Apr 18, 2002, 4:09 PM


Views: 43882
Re: [dttk] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

EEErrr... Dr. Tan,

Hope you did not miss my question earlier today...

(Just checking)


KevKoi
Koi Kichi


Apr 19, 2002, 2:57 AM


Views: 43875
Re: Baking Soda.

Baking soda is also known as Sodium Bicarbonate. (or if you so happen to see it in Malaysia, it's sometimes sold as Natrium Bicarbonat <--- Malay version. )

It's found at your local sundry shop, usually in small little clear plastic containers. Looks like very fine white salt grains.

If your pond is big (like 30 000L +) be prepared to buy quite a lot of baking soda to see change in pH. Check with pH tester to see if what you have added is enough, ie pH drop or rise to 8.4

I personally only ever added baking soda once, and that's when my new 45 000L pond was completed. After that, I just maintain pH using coral chips in bags in the pump chamber and some in the trickle towers. pH 'bout 7.8 last time I checked. Blush


Mark
Veteran

Apr 19, 2002, 4:06 AM


Views: 43874
Re: [doitsu] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

Hi Doitsu,

Baking soda is a layman term. The chemical name is Sodium Bicarbonate and is commonly used for baking cake. Please note that baking soda is different from baking powder. I once read ponder in Singapore throwing baking powder into the pond instead of baking soda and all the fish were "baked" overnight.

Baking soda is usually used in situation whereby there is a pH crashed - falling below 6. It will not hurt the fish or the good bugs in the filter system. Please also note that Baking Soda does not offer a permanent solution to a constant pH crash resulting from a poor filter system.

Since I do not know where you are from, I can only recommend you those outlets from Singapore. You may go to NTUC Supermart, Diamaru and Guardian Phamarcy or any place that sells product relating to cakes hobby. Sodium Bicarbonate is cheap and but you may not be able to buy them by the bulk. A 100gm repacked bottle costs S$0.95 available from NTUC. Price at Diamaru is alittel higher but Guardian is selling it a a premium price.

Good luck.



Appreciate if you could give us more info. about yourself in your personal profile. Thanks.


johnson lee
Veteran

Apr 19, 2002, 5:26 AM


Views: 43868
Re: [dttk] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

SmileGood morning Dr Tan

Yes, I can understand your reasoning for not wanting the KH to be above 120.Cool I believe that a KH of around 80-120 is within the limits and yes a higher KH than that can cause ammonia toxicity if ammonia is present in the water.Crazy So guys, make sure you check your KH readings as well apart from pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrates because KH readings lower than 80 will cause adverse fluctuation in your pH which in turn can cause pH crashes. Thanks Dr Tan for your input. I appreciate it. Also, I agree with you in disliking putting baking soda on a regular basis!Sly I probably do it once a quarter.

Rgds

Johnson


dttk
Veteran

Apr 19, 2002, 5:27 AM


Views: 43868
Re: [doitsu] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

Hi doitsu, sorry for the delay in answering your previous question. I thought it was directed to Johnson...Crazy. Nevertheless, Mark and Kevkoi have answered them already...Smile. Baking soda or sodium bicarbonate can be obtained cheaply in shops that supply to bakers. I get mine at RM7 per 2kg bags from a shop in Uptown Damansara. The 100g per bottle packing at the grocers or supermarts are much more costly. 100g of baking soda raises the KH of 1000L of water by 17.9ppm. Smile
Always friendly :)


johnson lee
Veteran

Apr 19, 2002, 5:36 AM


Views: 43864
Re: [doitsu] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

SmileHi Doitsu

Basically Mark and Kevkoi have answered your question about sodium bicarbonate (SB).Cool Remember, DO NOT BUY baking powder! Otherwise....your kois will Pirate uggghhh!

I agree with Mark that SB is not a permanent solution in maintaining stable pH. You might use it initially to bring up the pH of your pond when it is hovering near the danger level of say, below 6. A better alternative to buffering the pH of your pond is by using oyster shells or cockles in your filter system.

The carbonates in these shells will help 'neutralise' the acid produced from decaying matter, koi poop etc. Yes, SB is safe to use with fishes. Depending on your requirement, you can buy SB in bulk from cake shops. I buy my SB from a bakery supplier thus you can get them in 500g or 1kg packs. It is also cheaper to buy them this way. All the best!

Rgds

JohnsonSmile


doitsu
Novice

Apr 22, 2002, 7:31 PM


Views: 43842
Re: [dttk] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

Hi Dr. Tan, Johnson and Mark, and all the rest,

Thank you for your elaborate reply regarding the sodium bicarbonate.

However, you guys missed out my question on April 18. But I'll repeat it hear again.
If my ph is 9, what will happen if I place oyster shells in my filter?
What do you mean oyster shells buffer the ph?
Could you guys please explain the concept to me?
By the way, oyster shell stinks big time. I've soaked them, I've basked them under the blazing sun, then soak it in salt water, yet they still stink big time! Are they supposed to be like that? Will my whole pond stink?
Any advice, comments, and elaboration would be appreciated.
Sorry if this sounds to easy for you veterans but I hope you'll take time to explain these things to a amateur little 'brother'Angelic.
Thanks you guys... really learnt a lot from you guys!Cool


johnson lee
Veteran

Apr 23, 2002, 6:00 AM


Views: 43830
Re: [doitsu] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

SmileHi doitsu

If your pH is 9 and you add oyster shells, there will probably be a slight increase in your pH initially but as the carbonates is 'consumed' during the nitrification process, the pH will gradually start to drop.

In my earlier article, I mentioned that corals, oyster shells and cockles (all with carbonate based substance) acts as a very good pH buffer. Buffering basically means preventing the pH from swinging/dropping below the acid level ie. below 6 Some people refer to this as pH crash.

We know that koi thrives in alkaline water ie. between 7 - 8.4. So we would want to keep our pH between this range at all times. So if your pH is below 7, you add baking soda to increase the carbonates thus increasing the pH. If your pond is a concrete pond, then at the beginning you will have a naturally high pH because of the lime from the cement. However, over time as the lime wears off, your pH will start to drop. That is why you hear us talking about buffering the pH with the abovementioned stuff like oyster shells etc.

Yes, I agree with you that oyster shells stinks!Crazy I have also tried all sorts of ways to remove the smell but with varying amounts of success. In my case, I use cockles. I have put it under the sun for long periods of time. I then soak in lime water with salt and I also took the trouble to remove all the residue flesh and dirt from the shells. Ouch...my finger nails are still hurting!Pirate After that, I dry them under the sun again. It has been a long process so I detect very little smell now. However, once you put them into the filter, the smell from return!

Good luck to you!

Rgds

Johnson


doitsu
Novice

Apr 23, 2002, 7:42 PM


Views: 43814
Re: [johnson lee] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

Thanks so much Johnson for your elaborate reply.
So, I guess I'll wait till my ph go down a little ( as my ph is 9) then place the oyster shells since placing them in now will cause a rise. Or should I just put it in straight away?

Regarding the stench, I think you almost answered the whole questions except that you chose the wrong word - 'from' - in the last sentence of your reply. Perhaps you could rephrase that? Thanks man.


johnson lee
Veteran

Apr 24, 2002, 5:13 AM


Views: 43805
Re: [doitsu] Ammonia-Zeolite-UV

Hi doitsu

I am glad that my article has been useful to you!Cool Thanks for pointing out the error in the last sentence. It was not a wrong choice of word but when I type too fast and do not have the time to check, this is what happens!Crazy

Anyway, it should read as 'the smell will return!'

Rgds

JohnsonSmile