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Dechlorinator - what do you use?

 




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simoneinzaghi88
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Oct 15, 2009, 5:27 AM

Post #1 of 13 (8393 views)
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Dechlorinator - what do you use? Can't Post

Hi guys,

I have been using those anti chlorine crystals that come in bags sold at RM6.00 per bag. I somehow feel unsafe and tend to keep dropping these crystals into the pond and filter whenever I change water so I think I am overdosing with anti chlorine crystals.

So I am now contemplating of switching to other dechlorinators (depending on the cost of course). Hope forum members here can contribute into this thread so that I can weigh the costs and benefits of all alternatives Wink

It would be helpful if you could provide the name and the price and dosage (so that I know one bottle can last how long and with that I can also extrapolate the cost)

Cheers WinkWink
Thanks and regards

Simon


kennethc
User

Oct 15, 2009, 10:25 AM

Post #2 of 13 (8362 views)
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Re: [simoneinzaghi88] Dechlorinator - what do you use? [In reply to] Can't Post

Simon, your problem is simply you don't know the right dosage.

I believe sodium thiosulfate (anti chlorine) crystals are the cheapest, fastest, and safest way. You need to calculate how much water you drain by looking at the dimensions of your pond and how low the water level goes down. From there you can at least estimate how much water you drained. Once you figure that out, buy a digital gram scale like this. Then go to this site to calculate exactly how much crystals you need to put in. Better to first pour some water in a small container then mix the required crystals to make the solution, then pour it where your tap water is coming in. Also don't turn on a tap water hose directly into your pond full blast in the path of kois swimming lest their gills get burned. Better to put it indirectly somewhere in your filter system like the settlement or vortex chamber. Also if you throw crystals directly into your pond, the koi might accidentally eat them whole.

The only other option I know of are carbon filters. I'll list the pros and cons to better summarize

Pros of Sodium Thiosulfate
1. Dirt cheap. I have a 2400 gallon pond which I do 10% water change every week. I need only 15 grams of crystals each change. A kilo of ST costs only US$ 4.00 where I am. Do the math, that's more than a year's supply.
2. Safe for fish. Chemically deactivates Chlorine and breaks chloramine bonds leaving the ammonia to be taken care of by the filter bacteria.
3. Don't worry about over dosing. If I remember right, you'd need to put in about 100x overdose before you'd kill a fish

Cons of Carbon Filters
1. Expensive by comparison
2. Need to replace it periodically. Especially with big ponds. The biggest problem with it is you don't know when you need to replace it. Its easy to forget.
3. Slow. You can't turn on the water full blast if you're refilling the pond, it has to be slow to moderate flow. Takes a long time for big ponds. In my case, I can't start my filter system unless the main pond is filled or else my sequence pump will be sucking air.

Also take into consideration that 10% tap water is diluted with 90% pond water. So even if there are still some chlorine/chloramine left over, I assume it will react with all the stuff in the 90% and rendered harmless. Chlorine dissipates in a day or so. So I don't believe the kois will be in any kind of danger.

But as with koi kichi folk, if you can afford to do both, why not? Tongue
Slow drip from the tap water faucet is also a good alternative


(This post was edited by kennethc on Oct 15, 2009, 11:23 AM)



simoneinzaghi88
User


Oct 15, 2009, 4:51 PM

Post #3 of 13 (8328 views)
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Re: [kennethc] Dechlorinator - what do you use? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi kennethc,

THanks so much for the detailed reply. I like to do things in a systematic and scientific manner which makes me feel safe. THe 2 links that you provided which showed the gram scale as well as the calculator to determine the amount of TS to use is truly reassuring. This benefits other novices like me in this forum.

THere are also a few other very helpful forum members in here too who answer most of my queries. Frequent users of this forum will know who I am talking about and those who has helped me along the way will know that it's you guys I am talking about. Kudos to you guys for sharing and increasing awareness in this koi keeping hobby. Hope there are more participation and inputs to queries posted for the benefit of all.

Appreciate more inputs from others in this thread too

Cheers WinkWinkWink

In Reply To


In Reply To


In Reply To
Simon, your problem is simply you don't know the right dosage.

I believe sodium thiosulfate (anti chlorine) crystals are the cheapest, fastest, and safest way. You need to calculate how much water you drain by looking at the dimensions of your pond and how low the water level goes down. From there you can at least estimate how much water you drained. Once you figure that out, buy a digital gram scale like this. Then go to this site to calculate exactly how much crystals you need to put in. Better to first pour some water in a small container then mix the required crystals to make the solution, then pour it where your tap water is coming in. Also don't turn on a tap water hose directly into your pond full blast in the path of kois swimming lest their gills get burned. Better to put it indirectly somewhere in your filter system like the settlement or vortex chamber. Also if you throw crystals directly into your pond, the koi might accidentally eat them whole.

The only other option I know of are carbon filters. I'll list the pros and cons to better summarize

Pros of Sodium Thiosulfate
1. Dirt cheap. I have a 2400 gallon pond which I do 10% water change every week. I need only 15 grams of crystals each change. A kilo of ST costs only US$ 4.00 where I am. Do the math, that's more than a year's supply.
2. Safe for fish. Chemically deactivates Chlorine and breaks chloramine bonds leaving the ammonia to be taken care of by the filter bacteria.
3. Don't worry about over dosing. If I remember right, you'd need to put in about 100x overdose before you'd kill a fish

Cons of Carbon Filters
1. Expensive by comparison
2. Need to replace it periodically. Especially with big ponds. The biggest problem with it is you don't know when you need to replace it. Its easy to forget.
3. Slow. You can't turn on the water full blast if you're refilling the pond, it has to be slow to moderate flow. Takes a long time for big ponds. In my case, I can't start my filter system unless the main pond is filled or else my sequence pump will be sucking air.

Also take into consideration that 10% tap water is diluted with 90% pond water. So even if there are still some chlorine/chloramine left over, I assume it will react with all the stuff in the 90% and rendered harmless. Chlorine dissipates in a day or so. So I don't believe the kois will be in any kind of danger.

But as with koi kichi folk, if you can afford to do both, why not? Tongue
Slow drip from the tap water faucet is also a good alternative

Thanks and regards

Simon


stevie
User

Oct 16, 2009, 4:44 AM

Post #4 of 13 (8288 views)
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Re: [kennethc] Dechlorinator - what do you use? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Kenneth,

Dont mind if I ask. You stop half way. What about cons of anti chlorine crystals and pros of carbon filters?

Regards


kennethc
User

Oct 16, 2009, 10:43 AM

Post #5 of 13 (8263 views)
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Re: [stevie] Dechlorinator - what do you use? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Stevie,

I can't really think of anything substantial except maybe with ST, there are conflicting opinions. There are those that say that it still remains in the water and doesn't break down. And there are those that say it dissipates in a day or so (I'm inclined to believe the latter). But even if the former were true, since there are no reports that there are negative side effects of ST, as long as you change the water, the concentration of ST (if there is any) in the water should remain harmless.

With carbon filters, it absorbs heavy metals aside from chlorine and chloramine. But again the problem of how often to change the filters comes into question. With big ponds, I'd expect it to be very often.


PH8
Veteran


Oct 16, 2009, 11:17 AM

Post #6 of 13 (8253 views)
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Re: [kennethc] Dechlorinator - what do you use? [In reply to] Can't Post

From what I've read, I think some people also dispute that ST breaks the ammonia-chlorine bond in chloramines. I don't know, but it sounds inconclusive to me.CrazyCrazy


kennethc
User

Oct 16, 2009, 11:59 AM

Post #7 of 13 (8242 views)
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Re: [PH8] Dechlorinator - what do you use? [In reply to] Can't Post

Exactly. So much information out there, one can go crazy just thinking about these things.
My opinion is, to hell with it all. Do what you think is right and just change the water and let mother nature do the rest. Cool


KoiAnswers
Koi Kichi

Oct 16, 2009, 3:33 PM

Post #8 of 13 (8225 views)
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Re: [kennethc] Dechlorinator - what do you use? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Exactly. So much information out there, one can go crazy just thinking about these things.
My opinion is, to hell with it all. Do what you think is right and just change the water and let mother nature do the rest. Cool


I have taken this path, "Keep it simple," a long time ago. I have used the Anti Chlorine Crystal for more than a year now. My kois are alright. I used to be paranoid, I have anti this and anti that.......spend thousand of dollars, and my conclusion, the results are the same.........The Anti Chlorine crytal is dirt cheap though! And this will be my modus operandi! Why spend unnecesarily when the crystal works for me......


stevie
User

Oct 17, 2009, 9:25 AM

Post #9 of 13 (8180 views)
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Re: [PH8] Dechlorinator - what do you use? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, it is inconclusive that ST breaks down ammonia-chlorine bond in chloramines. Only if someone do a test if chloramines is still present after ST been added. Still I prefer carbon filter in certain ways and meanwhile use ST as it comes handy. Meaning, use either under different situations.

The obvious advantage of using carbon (charcoal) filter is for the auto drip with float. No way have you wanted to add ST in this situation. Convenience is the word. Flush your chambers, just turn on the tap and you can go and sleep or watch you favourite tv programs, visit friends or go shopping. Caní»t imagine calculating the amount of water drained, adding appropriate amount of ST to a bucket of water, dissolve it and pour into the pond and run the tap. Guess most of us just dump more and add more just to be sure. By the last drop of water the ST would have been disappeared? Anybody knows how long it stays in the dissolved water?

Next I would like to think that carbon filter filtering out most other harmful matters in the water and as pre-filter filtering mud and sand and all other unknow brown substances in our water supply. In medical applications carbon capsules are ingested to treat severe food poisoning or overdoses of drugs, even alcohol, etc. (When you go for a drinking challenge doní»t forget to take along some carbon pills, you will be the champion!). The carbon will absorb the poison in the stomach and intestine preventing it from being absorbed in the gastrointestinal tract from the small intestine to the blood stream and into the liver. It acts as a sponge with very large surface area, a huge sponge that allows water to pass thru, contact and extracts chemicals and heavy matters from the water and retains it. For the same obvious reason, in making potable water even with reserve osmosis carbon filters is a must. You just cannot find no carbon cartridges in water filtration system except in distillation. Never ending strong durian smell in your car or fridge? Place some charcoal. Durian smells no more. And most of all carbon cartridges are cheaply available in this part of the world. It is not something that it used to be, expensive. Unlike ST you can never over dose the water with carbon filter. Anybody who does not have carbon filters in their house for cooking and drinking, got to thinks again. Doní»t know what pipes they use transporting the treated water that leach and get dissolved. Sorry I am not in filtration business. Just supporting our coconut industry. We Malaysia (not me) export coconut shell carbon to the world including usa with FDA approval. Doní»t buy US carbon cartridges. They are probably from us and re-export to us and sell to us at 10x the price. Hahaha.

15,000 gallons is the safe guesstimate for a common household size carbon cartridge. Take note that there are times when the chlorine concentration is high, at times no chlorine at all but chloramines but on the life cycle long run of a cartridge averagely 15,000 gallons is safe. How large is your pond? Now, do your own calculations how long (months, weeks) to replace. So much for the carbon filters. Hopefully this helps us all the koi hobbyists.


kennethc
User

Oct 17, 2009, 7:06 PM

Post #10 of 13 (8145 views)
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Re: [stevie] Dechlorinator - what do you use? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you for that info stevie.

I have to admit, I am growing tired of the weekly time consuming chore of draining my pond and refilling and mixing the ST solution. Its actually just the waiting for my pond to fill up thats annoying. But it does give me a sense of satisfaction where I can actually see the old water go out and the new water come in. And I feel I'm not wasting too much water since I know I'm draining a specific amount. I don't like suprises with my water bill. Also I've come up with a few ways to automate the process... though it still involves some waiting. Forgot to list that as a con.

But with your suggestion of slow drip water, actually you don't even need a carbon filter. So long as it drips slowly, the chlorine will easily dissipate and the kois won't know the difference. I know a lot of pond owners who just let the tap water drip in and they're doing quite well. Its actually the highly recommended approach.

But for the sake of argument and being koi kichi folk, lets just say that one would want to put in a carbon filter just for good measure.

I had tried looking into carbon filtering before but found it a bit expensive and not at all cost effective.
15,000 gallons for a single cartridge you say? What kind of cartridge is that? If that is true, that would be more than a year's worth of use for me. But most of the cartridges I've inquired about, common drinking water carbon filters like this

are rated only 1,000-3,000 gallons before changing. Maybe you have a bigger or different cartridge in mind?

Still even rated at 3,000 gallons per use, for me that would mean changing every two months. Still not as cheap as ST, but certainly makes life a whole lot easier.

I think in the end its up to the personal preference of the koi hobbyist. Different ponds operate differently and have different ways of managing their water changes. There's no denying that carbon certainly has the advantage at absorbing pollutants from the water. You'll forgive me stevie if I put carbon filters in a bad light. I'll let the reader decide and take what they want from this discussion. Debating whether ST or Carbon is the better approach is useless because there's simply no way to measure how each one impacts the pond water. Pond water chemistry is a very complex subject. Its just not as simple as you think. But one thing is certain, you can't go wrong with following either one. Kois will thrive.

I'd like to have a chat with a micro-biologist and ask what goes on in my pond. Even how bio filtration can transform peasoup green pond water to crystal clear is still a mystery. No one can definitively answer what actually happens and why the algae dies. But I digress.

I have to agree with msms, just be sensible about it, keep it simple, change the water and above all enjoy your kois.


(This post was edited by kennethc on Oct 17, 2009, 7:23 PM)


stevie
User

Oct 17, 2009, 8:14 PM

Post #11 of 13 (8126 views)
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Re: [kennethc] Dechlorinator - what do you use? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Kenneth,

You are right. The slow drip does no harm to koi but micro organism like bacteria and it actually dissipated and evaporated. Likewise, chlorine will not kill us that is why it is part of the water treatment. But long term consumption leads to cancer especially when you boil and drink it. I read somewhere and many times.

If you were to empty your filter chambers so long as the pump is still submerged carbon filter with float make life easier. Just leave it to be filled. After saying all these I am not saying not to use ST. It is recommended when large quantity of water needed to be replaced. I must say that I used to add too much of ST and just couldn't believe the little bit of thing treats so much of water. Could not imagine the concentration. It should be high if not very high should it stay there becasue everytime we flush we replenish with even more ST. Anyway, the point here is not about which is better or cheaper. it is about convenience making koi keeping an enjoyable hobby. ST wont kill our koi, a little bit of cholrine wont kill too.

I am not sure where you got the info that the carbon filter as shown in the pic by you is only good for not more than 3,000 gallons. The 15,000 gallons I am talking about is same as the pic you posted here. It is a 10 inch long cartridge the more common one in Malaysia. The other is a 20 inch use in commercial dispenser units. There should be a label that states its recommended replacement volume and also if it is 10 micron or 5 micron. 15,000 gallons seemed to be the minimum standard for 10 inch carbon cartridges. Usually it is 20,000 gallons for the more compact 5 micron model. Please go to http://www.northerntool.com/..._200280574_200280574 as example. When it refers to 2,000 or 3,000 gallons it actually refering to something else. Please click this http://www.grassrootsstore.com/...EWPROD&ProdID=10.

By the way this carbon cartridge is available at RM5.00 a piece in KL. There are RM50 even RM150 a piece by direct selling companies or so called MLM (Multi Level Marketing). Just do not know why the price difference and what make it so special at RM150!!! I think it is the "Multi Level Commissions"!

Also, do not compare the price between here in Malaysia and else where thinking that you paid excessively. We are the producing country, less transportation and distribution costs, no duty, no frieght and less changing hands and cost of insurance and most of all we have plenty of coconut shell especially in Bagan Datok (not sure of the spelling), in the state of Perak that the land is just not suitable for oil palm to be converted into oil palm plantation.

By the way, do not consume carbon pills unnecessary just to absorb the alcohol from your small intestine and enable you to drink more. Some little of it as it is in powder form can get into your blood stream. Though getting into the blood stream it does not harm and stay there together with the substances it absorbed until you constantly donate your blood and in a way giving it to someone else. Carbon here refers to charcoal, not coal. Sometimes we eat carbon from burnt food.

Regards
Stevie


(This post was edited by stevie on Oct 17, 2009, 9:11 PM)


stevie
User

Oct 21, 2009, 8:36 AM

Post #12 of 13 (7877 views)
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Re: [simoneinzaghi88] Dechlorinator - what do you use? [In reply to] Can't Post

Today's The Sun newspaper reports quoted from Bernama news agency as attached.

You see what I mean! You can never guess how much anti-chlorine crystal you have to add. Sometimes it is so high the normal recommendation of dosage just doesn't work! With carbon filter you do not have such problem and sure the chlorine and many other harmful substances will be removed.

Cheers
Stevie
Attachments: DSC01975.jpg (64.0 KB)


KoiAnswers
Koi Kichi

Oct 21, 2009, 10:19 AM

Post #13 of 13 (7853 views)
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Re: [stevie] Dechlorinator - what do you use? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Today's The Sun newspaper reports quoted from Bernama news agency as attached.

You see what I mean! You can never guess how much anti-chlorine crystal you have to add. Sometimes it is so high the normal recommendation of dosage just doesn't work! With carbon filter you do not have such problem and sure the chlorine and many other harmful substances will be removed.

Cheers
Stevie


Stevie,
That's why we have chlorine tester. To me it will be a suicide if we do not test the water at regular intervals when we can water. Of course some people will go into great extend as to store tap water in storage tanks for more than 24 hours ie to dissipate the chlorine before they put the water into the pond. If you are very concerned, then perhaps if you have the facilities, why dont you do the same. If you are an advocate of using the carbon filters, then by all means do it. But make sure that you change the filters on a periodic basis.

 
 
 



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