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Extreme Noobie - be gentle

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natzakaria
Koi Lover

Aug 25, 2006, 5:00 PM

Post #1 of 33 (2663 views)
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Extreme Noobie - be gentle	Can't Post

Hi all am new to the forum and new to KOI

I have a 'pond' 5' x 3' used for my water feature - those black pvc stuff.
Preparation:
1. Added anti Chlorine
2. Added Salt
3. Added S1 ( some kind of green medicine thingy )

Filter:
As I dont hv much choise and the water feature flows from one catchment to another I added corals ( the ones in the fishnet bag ) on the top, then sponge filter on the lower catchment ( yes water flows thru these catchments ) and near the intake of the pump I placed a bag of charcoal in a fishnet bag ( according to the sungai buluh so called koi breeder the charcoal is supposed to reduce the smell of ammonia.

After few days added 12 2.5inch babies.

Fisrt day babies we doing well soving around .
Second day 1 died.
Third day 3 more died.

Now most of them are just NOT moving unless I disturb them.

I dread to think of what is expected on the 4th day.

I need serious help here. What do I need and where to get them.

Oh yes I have those black pebbles lining up the floor of the tank and white pebbles at the catchments.
It looks really good tho.
But water is a lil foamy and tank is lined with green stuff - cud it be algae or the S1 that I poured.

HELP!

Mr Bump
Koi Lover

Aug 25, 2006, 11:13 PM

Post #2 of 33 (2657 views)
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Re: [natzakaria] Extreme Noobie - be gentle [In reply to]	Can't Post

Did you add any bacteria culture to the filter after putting the rock in? Otherwise it's just rock - the bacteria you need to break down the ammonia is there naturally, but it will take a long time to build up to the kind of levels you need to stop the fish from being poisoned! It needs a kick start. I hope you haven't been feeding them at all, as that will just make the problem worse. Do an ammonia test stat - you can buy the test kits cheaply at most fish shops. If it is higher that 2-3mg/l get the fish out of the pond and sort the filter before you put them back - and when you do, just add a few at a time - you can't just lump 12 fish into a brand new pond with a un-mature filter and expect them to anything other than go belly up!

natzakaria
Koi Lover

Aug 25, 2006, 11:26 PM

Post #3 of 33 (2654 views)
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Re: [Mr Bump] Extreme Noobie - be gentle [In reply to]	Can't Post

OK where can I get this bacteria culture - whats the recommended amount I should dump in the pond of my size - anyway another one bit the dust when I got home - left with 7 and doesnt look too good :(

koiguyoz
Member

Aug 25, 2006, 11:57 PM

Post #4 of 33 (2653 views)
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Re: [natzakaria] Extreme Noobie - be gentle [In reply to]	Can't Post

Potential cause of fish loss:
The introduction of many fish is likely to have caused ammonia and nitrite levels to rise. These elements are produced as a by product of fish bodily wastes.These levels I suspect have rises because of a new filtration, and because of the introduction of too many fish.

You water may be cloudy looking at this stage.

I'd recommend at least a 10% water change (water to be dechlorinated by dechlorinating agent or aged and aerated in a separate container). Do this daily.

The charcoal you have is normally used to absorb chemicals and tannin (yellow water staining from leaves etc). You seek zeolite to absorb ammonia. I suggest obtaining zeolite as a short term solution to reduce ammonia levels while the new filter is maturing.

Other solutions include introducing a few pads of used matting from another existing biolfilter to boost positive bacteria numbers.

natzakaria
Koi Lover

Aug 26, 2006, 12:31 AM

Post #5 of 33 (2649 views)
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Re: [koiguyoz] Extreme Noobie - be gentle [In reply to]	Can't Post

That's wut I'll do in the morning - hunt for zeolite - any recommended brands
Thanks guys

natzakaria
Koi Lover

Aug 26, 2006, 4:20 PM

Post #6 of 33 (2621 views)
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Re: [natzakaria] Extreme Noobie - be gentle [In reply to]	Can't Post

ok another one went belly up and another on its way there.
Added zeolite and a bio block and let's see what happens.
Wish me luck - I need loads of it

koiguyoz
Member

Aug 26, 2006, 5:21 PM

Post #7 of 33 (2618 views)
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Re: [natzakaria] Extreme Noobie - be gentle [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm unaware of the "bio block".

Can you describe to use what they are?

Best wishes for your fish and yourself Smile

Condolences for those fish that have gone to Fishy Angelic

natzakaria
Koi Lover

Aug 26, 2006, 7:16 PM

Post #8 of 33 (2608 views)
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Re: [koiguyoz] Extreme Noobie - be gentle [In reply to]	Can't Post

Added the zeolite ( a bag of it ) and the bio block ( this was supposed to stabilize the nitrates and create the good bacteria ) and lo and behold anothe one bites the dust.
Well to be fair that particular one wasnt well for the past 2 days so no suprise there.

However my pond is foamy - what could this be?

The zeolite i got was made by Azoo and the bioblock repackaged by Mamoru Bio-Tech in USJ Taipan - supposed to be a specially formulated of microorganism, cement and zeolite - the fish shop swore by it so I got suckered into buying it RM45 for a block of stuff.

Will keep u posted about the progress.

By the way what is the cause for the foam??

larz1
Koi Kichi

Aug 27, 2006, 3:08 AM

Post #9 of 33 (2588 views)
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Re: [natzakaria] Extreme Noobie - be gentle [In reply to]	Can't Post

The foam is likely caused by protein scum (dissolved organic compounds). Fairly common, especially in new ponds with unestablished filters. If the bioblock is what I'm familiar with it contains bacteria nutrients and clays to help establish a colony of good bacteria more quickly.
A few things to keep in mind.
Small garden ponds only have a very limited capacity for fish. You need a minimum of 10 gallons of water for 1" of fish unless your water is extremely well filtered and aerated. Yours is brand new and it takes many weeks for a filter to start functioning properly. They should have only sold you 1 or 2 small fish to start with to allow your filter time to become established.
Do NOT feed your fish. They can survive for weeks without food, and feeding them only makes the water worse while the filter is getting started. Koi excrete ammonia from their gills even if they aren't eating, and for the time being that is more than enough for your little system to handle.
Your filter will work this way as it gets started.
1st. Your water will develop ammonia from fish wastes and breathing. Bacteria will start to live in your filter and eat the ammonia.
2nd. Those bacteria turn ammonia into nitrite, which is also bad for fish, but once this happens another type of bacteria begins to grow that eats nitrite.
3rd. The nitrite eating bacterea turn it into nitrate, which causes another type of bacteria to grow which feeds on it as well.
When this cycle has had time to complete itself, your filter will be able to maintain healthy water so long as you do not have too many fish.
A few other things you need to do to make sure all of this has a chance to work.
If you don't have a water testing kit, get one. It should be able to test for Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, and PH at a minimum. Your desired readings once the filter is mature should look like this.
Ammonia 0.0
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate <20ppm
ph ~7.0-9.0 (safe range for koi)
Bacteria (and Koi) need calcium carbonate in the water to be healthy. This is measured as KH. The KH readings on your water need to be above 100 for the water to be in best condition. You can help to maintain this by adding crushed oyster shells or coral to your filter system. Baking Soda is a good source in case of emergencies (after a heavy rainstorm). It will keep the water protected against wide ph swings, which are unhealthy for Koi.
If your pond/fish dealer cannot help you with these things, find one that can. You need a supplier who is knowledgeable and cares about his customers.

natzakaria
Koi Lover

Aug 27, 2006, 11:15 AM

Post #10 of 33 (2576 views)
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Re: [larz1] Extreme Noobie - be gentle [In reply to]	Can't Post

OK another one went belly up - larz1 thank u for a detailed explanation of the processes
I did a 10% change this morning and will monitor an update.
Any other suggestions?
Down to 4 lil ones now :(

larz1
Koi Kichi

Aug 27, 2006, 9:44 PM

Post #11 of 33 (2565 views)
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Re: [natzakaria] Extreme Noobie - be gentle [In reply to]	Can't Post

Under other circumstances I might suggest salting the water to 0.3% temporarily to ease stress and kill off some potential parasites which may be attacking your fish, but not this time.
Since you are using zeolite to absorb ammonia salt cannot be used in the pond. Salt regenerates zeolite by causing it to release all of the ammonia it has absorbed, which would probably kill off your remaining fish just that much quicker.
If you have a way to set up a small quarantine tank (as already suggested) you could salt it and remove your koi to it while the pond cleans up a bit. For proper dosing of salt see this chart;
http://www.cnykoi.com/calculators/calcsalt.asp
For stress relief and mild parasite infestations 0.3% is the proper dosage. For heavy parasite infestations dipping for a few minutes in a 0.6-0.9% solution may be needed.
The reason I mention this is that poor water weakens Koi immune defenses and allows parasites and other types of medical problems to attack your koi. Check them for ulcers, red splotches, white surface growths (cottony tufts in patches), or other skin problems. These are signs of parasite infestations or other infections that will require some type of treatment.

natzakaria
Koi Lover

Aug 27, 2006, 10:43 PM

Post #12 of 33 (2561 views)
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Re: [larz1] Extreme Noobie - be gentle [In reply to]	Can't Post

Oh no - I added salt to the pond but i think the water quality has improved a little perhaps due to the bio block.
It's less foamy now but the fish are not really swimming they are all bunched together in a corner.

larz1
Koi Kichi

Aug 28, 2006, 12:24 AM

Post #13 of 33 (2555 views)
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Re: [natzakaria] Extreme Noobie - be gentle [In reply to]	Can't Post

Remove the zeolite, soak it in salt water for a day, then thoroughly rinse with fresh water. That way it won't be putting ammonia back into the pond it has already absorbed. You can leave the salt in the water without the zeolite for the time being, but I would suggest 10-20% water changes daily using dechlor each time. This will reduce the load on your biofilter, dilute the salt slowly, and help your fish.
When adding new water I suggest you use a spray nozzle on the waters surface. This will reduce chlorine contamination and aerate the pond at the same time.
The fish hiding in the corner is a sign of stress, which is expected under the circumstances. Take care of the water first and the water will take care of your fish.

natzakaria
Koi Lover

Aug 28, 2006, 8:55 PM

Post #14 of 33 (2530 views)
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Re: [larz1] Extreme Noobie - be gentle [In reply to]	Can't Post

OK heres the deal - I couldnt wait for the bio block to work so I got me Ocean Free - bacteria in a bottle.
I also added a 3in1 water stabilizer liquid that was supposed to stabilize the ph to 7, dechlorinify and wipe up the ammonia.

Lo and behold 2 started 'swimming' previously they were all lumped together in a corner.

But water is even more foamier than before but with extremely tiny bubbles.

I will monitor in the morning and probably do another 10% water change.

larz1
Koi Kichi

Aug 28, 2006, 9:25 PM

Post #15 of 33 (2526 views)
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Re: [natzakaria] Extreme Noobie - be gentle [In reply to]	Can't Post

Glad things are looking better. Remove the zeolite and clean it anyway (for the time being) as the stabilizer has taken care of the ammonia issue for now. Otherwise it may absorb the treatment and leave your water vulnerable again.
Just to let you know, the stabilizer chemicals, (chloramex, amquel, ammolock, etc...) neutralize chlorine and BIND ammonia, but they do not remove the ammonia. It is still in the water, only in a form that will not harm your fish. Your biofilter will still have to consume it eventually, and an ammonia test will still show its presense.
Keep doing the water changes, test the water daily, and post your test results so we can help you better. Even with the bioblock and ocean free, it will still take 4-6 weeks for your biofilter to cycle (not what you wanted to hear, I know), so it will take daily time and attention until it does.
If you have a fine mesh net you can scoop up the foam on the surface. You can make a foam fractionator later if you want that will take care of it for you, but for now you have enough to do Wink

natzakaria
Koi Lover

Aug 29, 2006, 12:04 AM

Post #16 of 33 (2523 views)
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Re: [larz1] Extreme Noobie - be gentle [In reply to]	Can't Post

Checked a few minutes ago - they are swimming albeit slowly.
When should I start feeding them again? They have been starving for the past 3 days.
BTW I cant remove the zeolite since I scattered them around the pond - no longer in the bag.

larz1
Koi Kichi

Aug 29, 2006, 1:30 AM

Post #17 of 33 (2522 views)
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Re: [natzakaria] Extreme Noobie - be gentle [In reply to]	Can't Post

So much for the zeolite Blush

. For future reference it is best used in a mesh bag with water flowing through it. That way it can be recovered and refreshed.
Don't feed your fish for now. Koi can go for weeks without food and without any harm to them. First you need to get your water in good shape, which means you need to get the test kit I mentioned and start using it. Without the test results it is impossible to know when your filter has started to cycle properly so you can safely resume feeding. You need to be testing for ph, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. Post the test results and we'll be able to tell you how the filter is doing. Smile

natzakaria
Koi Lover

Aug 29, 2006, 10:50 AM

Post #18 of 33 (2501 views)
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Re: [larz1] Extreme Noobie - be gentle [In reply to]	Can't Post

Interestingly all the foam dissapeared this morning!!!
All are swimming however one seem like it's gasping for air - i thought it was hungry and sprinkled few ( 5 ) tiny pallets - obviously the one gasping for air did not even take a bit but the rest did.

10% water change will be done this evening

larz1
Koi Kichi

Aug 29, 2006, 8:59 PM

Post #19 of 33 (2481 views)
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Re: [natzakaria] Extreme Noobie - be gentle [In reply to]	Can't Post

There are usually only 3 things that cause fish to gasp for air at the surface.
1) Low Oxygen level, which in your case is quite possible as there is no airstone or other type of serious aeration. Adding even a small airstone would be a good idea regardless. Fish and biobacteria both need plenty of oxygen.
2) High PH. Fish gills become irritated and do not allow them to breath properly if the PH is too high, a condition known as alkylosis. We need to know the ph of your water.
3) Parasites. Fish in bad water conditions are easily infested by many parasites, some of which attack the gill plates.
I re-read you pond/filter description and the filter is minimal at best with little to promote good aeration of the water. Without an air stone there must be a great deal of surface agitation to provide oxygen, ie a waterfall or water fountain spray on the surface. Is there any way you can take a picture for us and post it here so we can get a better idea of what you have to work with?

betsymax
Koi Lover

Aug 30, 2006, 12:29 AM

Post #20 of 33 (2468 views)
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Re: [natzakaria] Extreme Noobie - be gentle [In reply to]	Can't Post

can youpost a pic for your set up if possible? this would be the an easier way of what to do for you.

hmmm..... do you leave your pump on 24 hrs a day or do you turn it off at night? do you have an airpump?

like larz said, you need not feed themtill they act normal. Wink

natzakaria
Koi Lover

Aug 30, 2006, 11:29 AM

Post #21 of 33 (2441 views)
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Re: [betsymax] Extreme Noobie - be gentle [In reply to]	Can't Post

OK another one went belly up :(
No i dont have an airpump as I am not sure if it is required for my little set up but do advise.
Attaching image of what my wife calls ' The Killing Fields '

another view of the water feature/pond

(This post was edited by natzakaria on Aug 30, 2006, 11:40 AM)

betsymax
Koi Lover

Aug 30, 2006, 11:37 AM

Post #22 of 33 (2436 views)
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Re: [natzakaria] Extreme Noobie - be gentle [In reply to]	Can't Post

that would be a good investment especially if the Koi are gasping for air. if you live in a warm climate, you will definitely need this for highr water temps dont hold oxygen well. plus, it would aid your pond in venting the unwanted chemicals to the atmosphere.

will wait for picture.

Koi38
Senior Member

Aug 30, 2006, 7:02 PM

Post #23 of 33 (2429 views)
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Re: [natzakaria] Extreme Noobie - be gentle [In reply to]	Can't Post

natzakaria,

I don't think you have O2 probs with your pond. With those waterfalls you have plenty.

Did you clean the unit first before you used it. You maybe did but I just have to ask Wink

rgds,
Jon

"DuKu Friendly"
_____________________________________
"No one is ever too old to know better"

http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/Koi38/

natzakaria
Koi Lover

Aug 30, 2006, 7:17 PM

Post #24 of 33 (2427 views)
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Re: [Koi38] Extreme Noobie - be gentle [In reply to]	Can't Post

Well I did rinse it once and filled up with water and just the pump running without any filters for about 2 weeks.
Then I got the itch for some fish and added the filters and other stuff.
In any case I bought me an air pump which will connect 2 airstones - another little project for me tomorrow.
Thinking of adding another submersible spotlight (already hv a blue one).

Koi38
Senior Member

Aug 30, 2006, 7:43 PM

Post #25 of 33 (2424 views)
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Re: [natzakaria] Extreme Noobie - be gentle [In reply to]	Can't Post

Remember to clean any stuff that will go in your pond with either sea salt or swimming pool salt or potassium pemanganate jus to be on the safe side Wink

rgds,
Jon

"DuKu Friendly"
_____________________________________
"No one is ever too old to know better"

http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/Koi38/

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