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Green Water

 





 


sharondru
Koi Lover

Jul 16, 2004, 11:59 PM

Post #1 of 19 (6479 views)
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Green Water Can't Post
I've noticed a lot of people asking for help in solving green water problems in outdoor ponds.
I have an outdoor pond that is was set up in the spring of 2003. On July 4, 2003, I noticed that the water was beginning to have a milky look. Within a very short time, I was waging war with green water. Over the course of the last year, I've spent an absolute FORTUNE on treatments to kill algae, clarifiers, bacteria treatments, Sludge Buster, replacement filters, blue sun blockers, ph balancers, and the list goes on and on. I have constantly changed the water, draining large amounts out, and replacing and a great deal of time and work was put into this. We could not seen the fish, and the water being dispensed by the pump was green, no matter how often we cleaned the filter. At one point, the water looked black. I cannot tell you how aggravating this has been, and how hard we have worked to clear this pond up. It is in direct sunlight all day long, as we live in a new subdivision with few trees, etc. We planted a Bradford pear on the East side to help provide shade but it won't be large enough to help for several years. We've planted different varieties of tall grass and plants around the pond to try and provide some shade.
Finally, on July 3, 2004, our existing pump quit. We made an emergency trip to TruValue and they had one pump kit in stock, a Pondmaster 1350. We hurried home, afraid that our fish would die, as I had treated the pond with Pondcare AlgaeFix, which requires constant, vigorous aeration.
Around July 6, we noticed that the top few inches of the water was starting to clear up. On July 8, there was a remarkable difference, and we were able to start seeing the fish several inches down. We cleaned the filters on this pump daily and you wouldn't believe the amount of algae it had removed from the water. On Jluly 12, we started being able to see glimpses of the bottom of the pond, which we hadn't seen in a year!! We bought a new replacement filter set, rinsed the first ones out and put them aside for future use, as the filter set was also the last one TruValue had in stock.
AMAZINGLY, on July 13, the water was almost totally clear, and on July 14, it was crystal clear! We couldn't believe it! Today it is so clear, that the fish are nervous because they are suddenly in a brand new world! I'm so excited about this. If I had known to buy this pump and filter kit a year ago, I could have saved so much money and labor!
Just thought this input might help someone else who is suffering from water problems the way we have.



Eric95209
Koi Lover

Jul 17, 2004, 12:30 AM

Post #2 of 19 (6467 views)
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Re: [sharondru] Green Water [In reply to] Can't Post
Congratulations!

How big is your pond?


sharondru
Koi Lover

Jul 17, 2004, 3:27 AM

Post #3 of 19 (6459 views)
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Re: [Eric95209] Green Water [In reply to] Can't Post

My pond is shaped like a pear and the rounded part is about 13 feet across. In the middle it's 27 inches deep when the level of water is at an average height. It becomes a little more shallow as it reaches the edge.



(This post was edited by sharondru on Jul 17, 2004, 3:30 AM)


renfrewj
Koi Lover

Jul 21, 2004, 5:45 AM

Post #4 of 19 (6398 views)
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Re: [sharondru] Green Water [In reply to] Can't Post
Our pond is larger than yours but other than that your battle with green water is almost identical to ours. Our pond is not yet clear and we have ordered a larger pump to see if that will help. We have given up on chemicals and being patient as the algae bloom began in May and is still going strong.
How big was your first pump that failed? Does the Pond Master you have now handle more GPH? We are still hoping to join the "clear water club" and avidly read any posts from people who have made it.
jrenfrew


sharondru
Koi Lover

Jul 21, 2004, 11:29 AM

Post #5 of 19 (6377 views)
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Re: [renfrewj] Green Water [In reply to] Can't Post

My pond is probably a little bigger than 13 feet, so this is a conservative estimate. It actually would hold as much water as a 15' x 24" swimming pool at average level.
I know exactly what you're going though. Don't give up. If I could clear up that toxic waste dump I had, so can you. By the way, right now my pond is exposed to direct sunlight all day long!
I started my pond a little over a year ago and the pump was one that was given to me. I can't remember the brand right off, but it was supposed to be a good one.
On July 4 of last year, the water began to look strange and a little cloudy. It went from bad to worse, with the water being green, brown, and even black at one point! Seemed like the more I did to try and correct the problem was the worse it became. I was fighting a losing battle, we couldn't even see the fish except at the last minute when they grabbed a bite of food. IT WAS SO FRUSTRATING! I've used Microblift, Sludge Buster, ph balancer, clarifiers, other beneficial bacteria, changed water, over and over, and I think you know what I mean.
Anyway, I actually have thought about it and I've come to the conclusion, that somehow I was lucky enough to find the right combination.
I bought a bottle of Pondcare AlgaeFix ($19.00) and followed the instructions, treating the pond every three days, and now once a week. At the very beginning of this treatment, my pump failed. On July 4 (ironically) of THIS year, I installed the Pondmaster 1350, the only pump and filter kit I could find that day. It only pumps 350GPH, and the pump itself doesn't seem as vigorous as the one I had, but, MAN, I wouldn't take anything for this system now! The pump is supposed to be energy efficient, and you can add on extra filters of other sizes if you have a larger biological load. It has a square tray filter that attaches to the pump. The water is pulled through the top, which looks like a grate, then through a white foam filter which catches the heavier debris, then through a simple, black carbon sheet, and finally though another grate. The water coming though the pump is crystal clear, whereas before it was green. I've cleaned this filter every day, and, though the water is clear now, the carbon filter has trapped an amazing amount of algae. I simply spray it off thoroughly and put it back into the pond. I would like to say that I have a very, simple setup. I've never had a pond before and did this one on my own. The only filter system I have is this one, which is submerged. I want my pond to look as natural as possible, and I think I've achieved that. The fish are not as happy as I am about the clear water!



(This post was edited by sharondru on Jul 21, 2004, 11:34 AM)


koiguyoz
Member


Jul 21, 2004, 7:23 PM

Post #6 of 19 (6350 views)
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Re: [renfrewj] Green Water [In reply to] Can't Post
To renfrewj,

I've been through the green water syndrome twice with two different ponds. I can tell you a few pointers, instead of telling you to buy a 'Pondmaster', as the answer here seems pond specific.

Here are some of my tips.

1. Its important to have media for biobacteria to grow on, these include lava rocks, matting, batting etc. Normally, we should have a minimum of 30% of media equal to the surface area of the pond. That is, measure width times length, and you should a 'area' surface measurement made.
2. Biobacteria lives on this media
3. The biobacteria are slow growers, especially in colder weather. I would recommend increasing surface area of media you have, and not washing any of the media in your filter for a minimum 6 weeks. (I didn't during the first start-up, and obtained clear water for each given week that went by.
4. Clean in pond water only, and squeeze and scrape the media gently to clean after those 6 weeks. Once a week cleaning should be done.
5. The prefilter (1st media filter) can be frequently cleaned to remove detritus and debris as much as you want thereafter.
6. Create a trickle tower (see www.koivet.com as well for more picture and creation ideas) that will assist in additional biofiltration of the pond.
7. I should have an email detailing my struggle against the green. I may have posted it to you after this post.


koiguyoz
Member


Jul 21, 2004, 9:26 PM

Post #7 of 19 (6344 views)
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Re: [koiguyoz] Green Water [In reply to] Can't Post
I've attached the following phases of my pond over the past few weeks for you to tell you a story.

Phase 1 - the beginning of the algal bloom: After a few weeks of owing my new koi, and washing my filters constantly, I never got a change from this green



Phase 2:
Following the introduction of the trickle tower, the green algal bloom began to dissappear, as such I believe its death contributed to the brownish colour of my pond. Water changes amounting to 60% of total content didnt chamge anything.



Phase 3 - the beginning of the end
I experimented with increasing the surface area of the prefilter/biofilter you can see situated at the top right hand side of this pic. This submerged pre-filter/biofilter had its to removed that increased the contact surface area with the pond, as such biofilter area is important in ensuring enough colonization area for the bacteria. Japanese matting and matala matting can be used for this prefilter/biolfilter area, I used cheap quilt batting only, and 100 bioballs. Flow rate is 500GPH at 0 metres.

Most importantly, I simply didnt bother washing this unit at all, nope not for 2 weeks or so, since my readings indicated that although it might seem like dirt to humans, these were the beginnings of heterotroph bacteria (muck-eating bacteria) (Source: Koi Society of Australia handbook). The next stage I believe was called autotroph bacteria that would work to breakdown more of what the 1st stage of bacteria did. Following on we would have nitrobateria converting ammonia and nitrites. Most of these bacteria appear brownish-black, and are susceptible to being killed with chemicals like algaecides. In short, our intervention with the biolfilter should stop at the prefilter media, which should be washed in pond water, and simply be swish around gently enough to only remove the thicker slime (don't squeeze the media, just swish and slide your hand on the slime to remove it). Washing is now done only twice a month for me.

As you can see below, increasing surface area for biobacteria and not washing the biomedia certainly improved it all :) No more algal green.

So, GD, keep on eye on nitrites right now, but avoid cleaning the filters you have for two weeks minimum, this also applies to the pre-filter stage. You might want to increase to much more thicker, higher density media in your filters if possible to capture finer particles floating in the water. Either that or increase media surface area.

No more algaecides to be used, however you might want to try a biobacteria starter culture like PondZyme which should be poured into the biofilter sponges, but I couldnt tell you if they really worked as I've not used it, but some people on the forum have.

See next post for final pic :)


sharondru
Koi Lover

Jul 21, 2004, 10:18 PM

Post #8 of 19 (6335 views)
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Re: [koiguyoz] Green Water [In reply to] Can't Post

Looks like you have a nice pond. I'm not necessarily saying that the Pondmaster is the answer to everyone's problem, but it, along with the Pondcare AlgaeFix took care of a severe problem which I'd had for over a year.
Everything I've done with my pond has been geared toward trying to acheive a natural look, with healthy, happy fish. My main problem has been, of course, the direct sunlight which is hard to control at this point. I've planted all sorts of bunching grass around the pond, plus other plants to make it look natural. My pond looked much worse than yours, and this went on for over a year. The water looked like a thick pea soup, except darker. Nobody who looks at this pond today, including myself, can believe this is the very same water that was in the pond 2 weeks or so ago! At this moment, with only the combination I mentioned, my pond is absolutely crystal clear (so unbelievable). If all I have to do in the future to keep it this way, is to clean my filter and add the Pondcare Algaefix, I'll gladly do this. I had asked a lot of "professionals" about how to fix this problem, and nobody could help me!
I don't actually have any koi, but I do have 2 sarasa comets, 2 shubunkins, and a horde of goldfish, all of which are doing very, very well. They have grown tremendously! I also have a 75 gallon aquarium inside where I transferred 1 shubunkin, 1 black moor, 2 telescopic-eyed veil tails, 1 red capped oranda, 1 brown moor, and a pearlscale from this pond. I did this because I felt they would be better off inside this winter.
Congratulations on your pond. Loved the pictures, despite the water problems. If my water had just been as clear as yours was in these pictures, I wouldn't have been nearly as distressed! By the way, at this point, we can see every detail on the river stones in the bottom! Absolutely crystal clear!



(This post was edited by sharondru on Jul 21, 2004, 10:22 PM)


koiguyoz
Member


Jul 21, 2004, 10:47 PM

Post #9 of 19 (6327 views)
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Re: [koiguyoz] Green Water [In reply to] Can't Post

It's clearer than this right now, and I plan on taking those pebbles out (single layer only).


koiguyoz
Member


Jul 23, 2004, 3:17 PM

Post #10 of 19 (6291 views)
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Re: [koiguyoz] Green Water [In reply to] Can't Post

The pond around 1 month after the last photo.


henros
Koi Lover


Jul 23, 2004, 4:51 PM

Post #11 of 19 (6287 views)
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Re: [sharondru] Green Water [In reply to] Can't Post
maybe this might help you understand why?

Green water is waterborne algae and it’s a bit more difficult to get rid of it than simply cleaning your pond — although cleaning the mulm and debris from your pond will increase the chances of getting rid of the algae. If you haven’t experienced an algae bloom in your pond yet you’re in for an enlightening experience. All bodies of water go through what we call an "algae bloom" that turns the water green (sometimes into the consistency of pea soup). It’s a very natural occurrence that happens whenever the water heats up and there is enough "fuel" in the water to feed the algae.
This type of algae is a waterborne microscopic plant that reproduces like crazy and becomes so thick that it actually colors the water green. There are other types of algae that we can address like string algae and the kind that builds up on the liner. But, for now, we’ll only cover the kind that turns your water green.
Mother Nature has her way of clearing the water. One day, after weeks of not being able to see your fish (much less the bottom of the pond), you may walk out and find that your pond is clear. It’s almost as if little pond fairies spent all night cleaning your pond. It’s actually when all the factors come together and your pond reaches its ecological balance. The following is a list of things that you can do to help the pond fairies do their job.
Sun / Shade
If your pond is located in the sun expect shades of green that if you’re Irish you can certainly be proud to have. Algae, like most plants, need sunlight to survive. Most of us can’t move our pond to the shade so there are ways to simulate shade. There are products available that color your water blue. You might be able to see your fish but you see them through un-natural blue water. You can create shade for your sunny pond also by adding floating plants such as water hyacinths, water lettuce and waterlillies.

Starve the Algae
Water plants, especially floaters and anacharis, compete with algae for nutrients in the water. The more plants you have, the more the algae starves and reproduces less. Stock up with plants. You may also consider not using fertilizer in your plants for a while until your ecological balance has been met.

Increase Your Bios


Frosty
Koi Lover

Jul 23, 2004, 5:48 PM

Post #12 of 19 (6285 views)
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Re: [henros] Green Water [In reply to] Can't Post
Wink Just to pick up on a previous post I placed on this forum regarding 'kick-starting' bios.

Whilst buying additional pipework for the new Koi pond extension hydro elements, I spotted cannisters of 'Sceptic Tank' starter kits. My thinking in buying this instead of the horrendously priced aquatic 'starter kits' is that Sceptic Tanks HAVE to work, and the rural community wouldn't support such a product unless it did what it says on the box!

It's over 3 weeks now since the 20 tons of fresh water entered the now extended pond, at which point I followed the prescribed dosage of the Sceptic Tank starter enzyme. Throughout these three weeks, there has been NO green water, only a steadily falling Nitrite reading, and emergence of...........wait for it wait for it.............Filementatious green algae, yup, blanket weed, which is a great sign. The water is teeming with life and as clear as crystal.

As with most things in life, keep it simple Cool
Long-Time Koi Lover


ucpondguy
Member


Jul 23, 2004, 9:07 PM

Post #13 of 19 (6271 views)
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Re: [Frosty] Green Water [In reply to] Can't Post
Hello,
This is great info, finding a product that kick starts the bio filtration that is cheaper than the bacteria in a bottle products for koi. Was it safe to use on fish and plants?


Frosty
Koi Lover

Jul 23, 2004, 11:03 PM

Post #14 of 19 (6258 views)
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Re: [ucpondguy] Green Water [In reply to] Can't Post
Wink
It HAS to be 'Green' environmentally, as Sceptic Tanks gradually leech their contents into surrounding farm land, so the answer has to be yes, it's safe Cool
Long-Time Koi Lover


koiguyoz
Member


Jul 23, 2004, 11:57 PM

Post #15 of 19 (6251 views)
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Re: [Frosty] Green Water [In reply to] Can't Post
As I'm a curious fellow Frosty, could you tell me the ingredients or the package name of this product? I would like to do some background reading and checks on this product :)

Personally, I still believe it comes down to bioreactor/biofiltrationg designs being adequate enough to support the Koi, simply through time, patience, and the need to wait for the biobacteria to grow on your media (and not having too much koi during the start up process if possible). On that note, my biofilters are simple submerged prefilter/biofilter running in parallel with a trickle tower, no UV lights, no pressurized filters etc. The next bioreactor in my final pond will be based upon a settlement tank, prefilter biofilter, fed to ball valve controlled trickle tower/waterfall output, annd venturi :)

Have fun! and stay Koi :p


Frosty
Koi Lover

Jul 26, 2004, 4:49 PM

Post #16 of 19 (6193 views)
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Re: [koiguyoz] Green Water [In reply to] Can't Post
Hiya KoiGuyOz Wink

Ingredients as follows:

"INSTANT POWER", which contains the following:
'PROTEASE' (PROTEIN DEGRADING)
'LIPASE' (FAT & GREASE DEGRADING)
'CELLULASE' (PAPER DEGRADING)
'ALPHA AMYLASE' (STARCH DEGRADING)

CONTAINS UREA & LIVE BACTERIAL CULTURES
SCOTCH CORPORATION
PO BOX 4466
DALLAS, TX 75208
214-943-4605
HELP LINE: 1-800-613-4242

No aquatic livestock was present when the treatment was applied four weeks ago, but Nitrite is now 100% ZERO, water is CRYSTAL clear, and our dogs have been drinking as usual from the settlement pond with absolutely no ill effect.
Long-Time Koi Lover


koiguyoz
Member


Jul 26, 2004, 5:33 PM

Post #17 of 19 (6191 views)
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Re: [Frosty] Green Water [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi all and Frosty,

I did some background research on the ingredients mentioned and linked to the sites with a short extract on what these items were:

Cellulase
http://www.aboutchelation.com/pages/cellulase.htm

"A carbohydrate-digesting enzyme that hydrolyses cellulose, gums and fibers to glucose. Cellulose is truly an insoluble fiber, however, this enzyme works by breaking up the bonds (glycosidic) that join the units of cellulose. (This enzyme is from a plant source.)"

Lipase
http://www.vitacost.com/science/hn/Supp/Lipase.htm

"ipase is an enzyme that is used by the body to break down dietary fats into an absorbable form."

Protese
http://www.protease.net.au/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=2

"n our environment, proteases are key regulators of the life of insects and other agricultural pests, key regulators of growth and health of farm animals, and principal regulators of plants and marine food sources. Research into these relatively under-studied proteases has the potential to contribute spectacularly to our economy by improving plant and animal health through enhanced growth and treatment/prevention of parasite infections, crop protection through new herbicides and pesticides, and increased or faster production of food resources."

Alpha Amylase
http://www.science-projects.com/Amylase.htm

"This PacMan is called alpha-amylase. More scientifically stated, alpha-amylase hydrolyzes saccharide bonds, which are those pointed at by the arrows in the figure, above. So imagine, a bunch of alpha-amylases randomly bouncing around (Brownian motion!) in among some extremely long starch molecules. Whenever a "mouth" - the enzymatic or active site - bounces against a saccharide bond, "snip", and the bond is broken (hydrolyzed as a water molecule is added "across" the saccharide bond). With that bond broken, the whole starch molecule is now in two pieces. The more "bites," the more and smaller pieces. To help you "identify" with alpha-amylase, you will be happy to know that most of you have lots of it in your saliva.**"

Interesting quote:
"You have lots of it in your saliva" - gathers HUGE amounts of saliva in mouth and spits into the Koi pond hehehe*

*NOTE: koiguyoz does not recommend you or any other family member to continously spit into your koi pond, unless you're a very odd person :p


TL Findlay
Koi Lover

Jul 31, 2004, 12:50 PM

Post #18 of 19 (6089 views)
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Re: [sharondru] Green Water [In reply to] Can't Post
Hello, Sharondru

Sadly we lost four koi and two frogs recently to seagulls or racoons we think. We also discovered one of our koi wedged tightly into the hole in a cinder block where he/she had hidden to try to escape harm. We felt really bad as our koi had grown so much that they were too large to get comfortably into the holes in the cinderblock to hide from preditors. The koi that was stuck had rubbed scales off trying to free itself. All the remaining fish were traumatized. What my husband did was join some 8-inch length plastic tubes (3.5 inch diameter) together with cable ties and made a "fish condo" submerged under a piece of flagstone. We removed the dangerous cinderblock. The fish are back to their happy selves now, swimming unafraid near the surface because they know there are enough easy-to-reach hiding places close by. The flagstone acts as access for our puppy and tortoise to wade into the pond and drink.

We can't have plants this year due to the fact that our four-month-old puppy rips the plants out and tears them to shreds (he doesn't bother the fish). There is only one plant remaining - for how long we don't know! We do like the look of plants though and will hopefully have them next year.

I've enclosed a photo of the koi condo and our plant-eating puppy. You can see the one lonely plant we have left.

Regards, TL
Attachments: condo.jpg (21.0 KB)
  puppy.jpg (27.6 KB)


sharondru
Koi Lover

Jul 31, 2004, 1:13 PM

Post #19 of 19 (6082 views)
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Re: [TL Findlay] Green Water [In reply to] Can't Post
UnimpressedSorry to hear about losing your fish and frogs. I have several frogs also and a little toad house on the bank of the pond. There was actually a little frog sitting inside it one night, watching us! Really cute. I made a bench from an old log and we sit there in the afternoons when we feed the fish their supper.
I lost one fancy gold fish (of course, the most expensive one I've bought so far), and have no idea what happened to it, unless our neighbors cat got it. My husband saw him sitting next to the pond, licking himself off and he was wet. I only had this fish for a couple of days before it disappeared.
My pond is still clear and my husband had planned to do the same as yours, putting pipes in the water. Instead, I had purchased a large driftwood "tree", so I laid it on it's side over a hole I deliberately left in the bottom of the pond. This isn't a hole that water can go through, just a deep spot in the center of the pond for the fish to nestle in. They seem much happier now, as they can swim around this and under it. I wound up adding fake lily pads for the time being, to help provide more privacy and security for the fish. It also adds a little more shade, which we need desperately. I have a Bradford Pear planted near the pond on the east side, and on the west side, I've planted a large chunk of clumping grass, which also helps. The pond is a short distance from our master bedroom window. On hot nights, we'll sometimes open the window because you can hear the sound of the pond (water flowing, frogs croaking, etc.) Very relaxing! Good luck with your pond! Cute puppy, but very sneaky looking! Ha! Ha!

 
 
 



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