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Home: KOI Talk: Pond Water Quality:
Ground water- suitable?

 






 


HWONG
Koi Addict

Feb 11, 2000, 1:23 PM

Post #1 of 17 (5032 views)
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Ground water- suitable? Can't Post

Hi everybody, another poser for you.

Is ground water suitable for koi keeping. Since hard water is supposedly unsuitable, how does one soften it to the desired quality. Since Grd water may contain harmful micro-organisms can they be gotten rid of through the normal filteration system.
I visited the Summer Koi homepage and discovered they use ground water which they are proud enough to feature it.

Also if water needs to be clear and without ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and good Ph, how do you explain the virtues of keeping koi in mud pond with the murky water and assumed dead water? A little cconfused lah .
Looking fforward to hear from you.


dttk
Senior Member

Feb 16, 2000, 6:51 AM

Post #2 of 17 (5031 views)
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Dear hwong, welcome to the forum. Soft water is not suitable for koi. A hardness of 50-150ppm is ideal.Koi have to work harder to maintain internal osmolarity if external water is soft. I guess ground water is alright for koi if it's not from any nearby contaminated sources, eg. sewage. Mud ponds contain lots of food for koi. Imagine if a koi could feed for 24 hours a day, it will grow at a tremendous rate. Oxygen level are maintained, nitrates and ammonia levels are low. The large size of these ponds ensures that there's plenty of food for koi and no overstocking. Muddy water does not always equate to low oxygen or high nitrate/ammonia content.


cch
Koi Lover

Feb 16, 2000, 7:14 AM

Post #3 of 17 (5030 views)
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Hardwater can be soften by using peat or Ion exchanger. Peat however need to be replenish regularly as it will loss its potency quite soon.

If you are worried that ground water contain undesirable organism, then you can let the water to go through a series of carbon column before letting the water into the pond.

Mud pond is good for koi as it is a natural condition and equilibrium can be reached easily. It also contain a lot mineral that is good for koi. As long as it is a big mud pond without overstocking, koi will grow faster.


HWONG
Koi Addict

Feb 16, 2000, 8:17 AM

Post #4 of 17 (5030 views)
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Thanks dttk,cch,

From your reply can I conclude that Ground water is ok if it is from an uncontaminated source?

Besr regards.


Tan Beng Teck
Koi Lover

Feb 16, 2000, 12:13 PM

Post #5 of 17 (5030 views)
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I wanted to stress the point that which Farms in Singapore does not use ground water?

In fact all of them uses it due to the fact it cost so little compare to our supplied PUB water.

Dttk answer on soft water is not suitable for Koi which I don't agree upon. If I may quote a paragraph fm the japanese mag Nichirin July 1998.
"The water was treated to keep it soft, making it very good water in which to raise koi" by Ken Sasaki.
The purification system used are "Izueki Net" and "Magic Stone". It treated iron and hardness to 0.02ppm and 1ppm respectively.

Hey, don't question me! Just transfer fm mag.


cch
Koi Lover

Feb 16, 2000, 11:32 PM

Post #6 of 17 (5030 views)
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This one is transferred from another thread


Quote
Water Hardness
consists of two elements, permanent or general hardness and temporary or carbonate/bicarbonate hardness. Koi do better in hard water because of the relation of salt within their bodies to the dissolved salts in the pond. In soft water, the difference in salt concentrations means the koi have to work harder, through the process of osmoregulation, to prevent the salts within their bodies from diffusing out through their gill membranes. Harder water allows the koi to ease up on osmoregulation and therefore reduce stress. As mentioned above, bicarbonate ions buffer the water, reducing pH shifts, another cause of stress in koi. Koi do well in carbonate hardness of 150-300 mg/liter or 9-18 degrees dll. In most koi ponds the water is too soft due to the fact that there is no natural mud bottom that leaches minerals into the water. Marine salt and sodium bicarbonate increases hardness and will also cause pH to go up. A permanent salt solution of 0.1% is beneficial to koi, and works out to eight pounds per 1,000 gallons. Check your pH if you add salt, and do not use table salt. Salt will not evaporate out and needs to be replaced only if water is drained from the pond


From this thread http://www.koi.com.my/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000040.html

It seem is contracditing to


Quote
The water was treated to keep it soft, making it very good water in which to raise koi" by Ken Sasaki.
The purification system used are "Izueki Net" and "Magic Stone". It treated iron and hardness to 0.02ppm and 1ppm respectively.


So in the end, which is better. Hard or soft water ? [confused]

May be the debate can continue here so that we all have more information to compare. Smile



Tan Beng Teck
Koi Lover

Feb 17, 2000, 5:03 AM

Post #7 of 17 (5030 views)
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Why not contact your source for confirmation?

Hope the jap know how to differentiate the word soft and hard. But the text did explain exactly spring water or mineral water is good soft water.

Will be back when dug more out. Smile


cch
Koi Lover

Feb 17, 2000, 5:32 AM

Post #8 of 17 (5030 views)
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Found this one :-


Quote
Water Hardness
Hard water is due to an abundant number of salts such as calcium and magnesium. Koi can cope with a wide range of hardness. There are two major benefits to having hard water in your Koi pond. First, very hard water can bind some toxic metals such as lead. Secondly, hard water reduces the workload of the koi for osmoregulatory functions. A reading of 0 to 75 PPM is considered soft, from 75 to 150 PPM is moderately hard, from 150 to 300 PPM is hard and above 300 PPM is very hard. If it is necessary to increase your hardness you can add crushed oyster shells, coral or any substance that will increase the amount of calcium.


From

http://www.koiusa.com/library/akcamed7.htm

Will dig more.


dttk
Senior Member

Feb 17, 2000, 6:19 AM

Post #9 of 17 (5030 views)
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Hi everybody, I see a very interesting discussion developing here over the question of hardness of water-good for koi or not? Of course this is not the first time in the forum that we are discussing about water hardness and it's effect on koi. We have heard views from many members before and it was generally accepted that hard water is beneficial for koi. Beng Teck, there is a possibility that the softwater mentioned in Nichirin is literally taken to mean clean or pure, free from heavy metals or other pollutants. Spring water or mineral water do contain minerals like calcium, magnesium, etc.


Mark
Koi Kichi

Feb 17, 2000, 11:42 AM

Post #10 of 17 (5030 views)
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It is to my best knowledge that koi prefers hard water. I agree wholeheartedly with dttk.


Anonymous
Anonymous

Feb 17, 2000, 11:20 PM

Post #11 of 17 (5030 views)
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Even if you use Ion exchanger method to soften ground water, you will still need to use salt and others to reconstruct the hardness as koi will not survive in pure water.

At a hardness of 0.02ppm or 1ppm, the koi must be under substantial stress and I wonder how can koi do well in such as soft water.


Melvin Tan
Koi Lover

Feb 18, 2000, 3:50 AM

Post #12 of 17 (5030 views)
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Hi all,

based on stuff I've read, would concur that koi seem to do better in hard water of around 150 ppm.

Anyone who has accessed Jap websites would know that the English there is often a sort of Jap grammer translated to English. This often makes it very difficult to understand what they are trying to say.

I think they have a different definition in mind when they use the term "soft" water.

Cheers


Khoobg
Webmaster


Feb 18, 2000, 5:22 AM

Post #13 of 17 (5030 views)
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The picture look clearer now. Koi will definitely do better in moderate hard water. Otherwise, the one sided osmosis effect will force the koi to work so hard and stressful for osmoregulation process and finally the koi will suffer badly.

Cheers


Hans Ham
Deleted

Feb 18, 2000, 1:38 PM

Post #14 of 17 (5030 views)
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Hello Gentlemens !
To your question number
1.Ground Water
- So far i know ground water in this area is not advisable. First, most contractors drilling only to the first water table and this water you wont be able to use.
Treating ground water could be very expensive, and just the drilling cost to the second water table would be around rm20,000 above, if it is done properly.
Even you before start drilling you should get information from your town counsell if they have analised the ground water.
for my opinion i would never never use ground water here, pipe water is cheaper for the long run. I know several people who drilled water wells and not even one is able to use it as it is too expensive to treat.

2.Water hardness
- this has been discussed several times and it is starting to get boring.As all the information is already there.For my own experience, Koi's doing better moderate hard water 80ppm - 150ppm.The japanese term of using soft water, i don't believe this have got to do with hardness we're discussting about as Melvin tan already suggested there is alot of communication problems.

Regards,
Hans



(This post was edited by Hans Ham on Jun 2, 2001, 2:00 PM)


Doc Conrad
Koi Lover


Feb 18, 2000, 6:24 PM

Post #15 of 17 (5030 views)
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Koi need a reasonably stable pH, low ammonia and nitrite content, and a reasonable level of salt in the water to be healthy. For the bacteria in the biological filter to thrive and take care of ammonia and nitrite, the optimum pH range is 7.8 to 9, and is best acheived by addition of sodium bicarbonate or baking soda, since it is the perfect chemical buffer, readily available, and very cheap. Koi maintain a 1% level of salt in their bodies, and must extract this salt out of the water. If the salt content is too low, then they must work too hard to maintain the salt in their body. So it helps the health of the koi (or goldfish) to add a reasonable amount of salt to the water, especially if the water supply has low salt content. For example, a steady supply of pure rain water would be expected to kill the fish for lack of adequate salt content. Koi can live satisfactorily at salt contents anywhere from 0.05% to 0.8% for long periods from my direct observation and measurements in my ponds. I hope this helps this discussion.


Khoobg
Webmaster


Feb 19, 2000, 2:19 AM

Post #16 of 17 (5030 views)
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Hi Doc Conrad,

Welcome to the Forum. We are glad that you are here to help.

Cheers


HWONG
Koi Addict

Feb 21, 2000, 5:08 AM

Post #17 of 17 (5030 views)
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Hi eveybody,

Thank you for all your comments which will take some time to digest aand understand.When the dust has all settled on this topic, will it be archived for future reference and if so how is the archive organised.

Mr Khoo , you have naik my pangkat to senior. Thank you for an invaluable site.

 
 
 



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