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Help! Koi lying on its side!

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johnson lee
Koi Kichi

Sep 3, 2001, 11:36 PM

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To anyone available to help

I woke up this morning and got a shock seeing two of my kois lying sideways. My wife thought they were dead but upon closer inspection by me, I could still see them breathing. With my net, I tried to move them and to my surprise they did move but after a while they begin to slowly sink into the water and struggling.

It rained yesterday afternoon and after the rain I checked the pH which was about 7.5. However, this morning after seeing the condition of the fishes, I checked again and to my horror it is now between 8.5 to 9.0! What is wrong and what should I do about it? The water is still crystal clear but I have not bought the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate test kit yet. I have about 14 kois in the pond. Before I left for work, I poured in two small bottles of anti-chlorine and some pond salt since there is not much I can do whilst rushing to work. Can anybody please tell me what's wrong and what can I do about this? All help very much appreciated.

Joshua Lee
Koi Lover

Sep 4, 2001, 1:38 AM

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Dear JTK

Best to quarantine your two "lying on the side" koi before the other healthy fish get the bugs. The quarantine (q-tank) would have 0.3% salt solution (0.3 kg salt for every 100 litres) which would kill most bugs in the fish. If you don't have a q-tank, I guess you would have to salt the whole pond up to 0.3%. You would need to remove any activated carbon and resist feeding the fish for a few weeks until they are well.

But you would need to get those test kits in a hurry to find out exactly what was ailing the fish - ammonia, nitrites or nitrates. The current PH reading at 8.5 seems borderline but still OK.

Hope your two koi will be up and swimming soon!

Koi lovers unite!

Best regards

Josh

johnson lee
Koi Kichi

Sep 4, 2001, 3:43 AM

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Hi Josh

Thank you for your quick reply. I feel a little better after hearing from someone! Smile

Yes, I will take your advice and go back this evening and quarantine the two affected fishes. I hope that they have not infected the others during this time! I am assuming that your diagnosis is that they are infected with some kind of virus, right? Is there any other possibility that other problems might have caused the fish to list to one side?

I know, I know, I am supposed to get the test kit for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. Do they sell as a 3-in-1 kit or will I have to buy them separately? What about PP? Will this help if I get some from the pharmacy this evening and put some into the pond? If yes, what dosage? My pond size is 10' x 6' x 3'6"

I really appreciate that either you or Khoobg will always be there to the rescue by replying speedily. Thanks again! Cheers mate!! Smile

johnson lee
Koi Kichi

Sep 4, 2001, 2:29 PM

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Hi Josh

Came back this evening and checked the fish, they are still alive but still sluggish and listing to one side. In fact, I found two more having the same symptoms. Have quarantined the two fishes and added pond salt into quarantine tank. They seem to swim better (I think) but still not looking too good.

I was not able to purchase the ammonia and nitrite/nitrate test kit and will try to do so tomorrow. I tested the pH again and found to be still between 8.5-9.0

I added more pond salt into pond in the hope to stabilise the fishes. Should I perform a change of water or do I wait for the water tests tomorrow? Should I also purchase some PP from the pharmacy and in what dosage and add it into the pond? Would that help? The only symptom I can observe is that the fish seemed to be rather sluggish/sleepy and it tends to stop at a particular place for quite a while and in that process start to list to one side. This is particularly obvious when I see them first thing in the morning. It is raining rather heavily now and I am very worried this will further worsen the condition of the fishes in the pond. I hope someone who is reading this will provide some clues/solutions to my predicament. Thanks so much!

Joshua Lee
Koi Lover

Sep 5, 2001, 2:18 AM

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Dear JTK

I have not done a PP bomb before and I hope some of the veterans in the forum can advise on this. Like a bomb, it's effective but you have to know exactly how to do it without blowing up yourself!

I do know that the traditional treatment to cure most diseases is to do a 50% water change and salt up to 0.3% or do a salt bath for 15 minutes at 1.0% concentration. That will wipe out the pathogens, whether parasites, bacterial or viral and keep the the koi alive to see another day.

I don't think rain is a worry since your PH at 8.5 to 9 is OK for koi and rain is acidic and would probably bring it lower but still within the acceptable range of 7 to 9.

As far as I know, test kits are separate for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. They are about RM30 to RM40 each and are just about the first thing koi keepers check when koi are sick. Exactly how the doctor sticks the thermometer into your mouth and listens to your heart beat with the stethoscope when you are sick. They tell a lot about your condition.

All the best, cheers and don't give up!

Smile

Josh

johnson lee
Koi Kichi

Sep 5, 2001, 4:50 AM

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Hi Josh

Thanks for the e-mail. During lunch hour, I went out and bought the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates test kit together with 2L of Aquaplus. Will go back and test the water and post findings. Also, I will take your advice and change 50% of the water and fill the pond with fresh, clean water.

Question: Can I leave the fish in the pond whilst changing water and adding Aquaplus and pond salt? How do you calculate 0.3% of salt concentration for my pond? My pond size is a figure of eight in shape and approx. 10' x 6' x 3'6"

Do you measure the salt in lbs or other measurement? I also caught the kois trying to jump out from the pond so I thought that was an indication that they are not at ease and the water must be the culprit!!

I really want to thank you for cheering up the sagging spirits of this new amateur koi keeper! Keep it up!

Johnson Lee

Joshua Lee
Koi Lover

Sep 5, 2001, 12:12 PM

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Hi Johnson

Hey, glad to know your spirit's up. If there is one word koi keepers don't know, it is the word "give up".

So, now you have got those test kits, got the readings yet? We are not getting any sleep until you post the readings! [biggrin]

You have a sizeable pond for a beginner.

Just to confirm your pond dimensions are:

10 feet X 6 feet by 3.5 feet

In metres your pond dimensions are 3.045 m X 1.83 m X 1.067 m = 5.95 cu. metre =
5,950 litres = 5.95 tons = 1,300 imperial gallons. 5,950 litres weighs 5,950 kg, so to make 0.3% salt concentration you need a whopping 17.85 kg of salt. Do check your dimensions again to make sure it is correct.

I think it is safe to let the koi remain in the pond when you do the water change and when you salt the pond. Just make sure you add anti-chlorine and remove any activated carbon in your filter.

All the best!

Regards

Smile

Josh

Khoobg
Webmaster

Sep 5, 2001, 12:22 PM

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Hi Johnson,

Is your pond well aerated at present moment ?

johnson lee
Koi Kichi

Sep 6, 2001, 1:45 AM

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Good morning Khoo and Josh

I went back home last night and found that one koi was dead Frown

and the other in critical condition. I checked the dead koi and found no signs of disease except that there was some reddish tinge in the gills. The ill fish has clear red vein-like design on its body and it is gasping for air at the bottom.

I immediately drained 50% of the water as Josh advised and added in clean water together with the Aquaplus. The whole process took about 2-3 hrs. Since it was too late already, I decided to do the test this morning.

Readings are as follows :-

pH - betw. 7.5 - 8.0
Ammonia - betw. 0 - 0.25 mg/l
Nitrite - betw. 0.3 - 0.8 mg/l
Nitrate - betw. 0 - 12.5 mg/l

I use "between" because the Tetra test kit does not provide detailed readings, just what colour matches what reading.

Yes, I confirm that my pond size is as what was stated.

Khoo, at present the filter outlet carries water into a Balinese-like pot which in turns brings the water into the pond with some splashes. I have also added a t-joint at the outlet so that I have another pvc pipe stretching out horizontally. I drilled about 8-10 holes in them to provide additional aeration to the pond. At the other end, I also have a fountain to create more oxygen in the pond. I think this is sufficient, do you?

The koi dealer is recommending a herbal extract for my fish. I described the condition of my koi to him and he said this is a "sleepy/drowsy" disease and if I change the water and use this herbal extract, it would definitely help. Can't remember the brand though.

I may be a little paranoid now but looking at the rest of the fishes this morning, it seems that a few more seem to be displaying the same symptoms as my earlier two kois.

Josh, you mentioned that I need to use appox. 18 kg of pond salt in my pond to meet the 0.3% conditions right? So should I then go and purchase them this evening and put them in?

Thank you for all the advice and help, Khoo/Josh! Really, really appreciate them a lot. Got to be calm and patient and ride through this storm. I am learning many valuable lessons from this experience.

Regards

Johnson

(This post was edited by jtklee on May 9, 2001, 2:00 PM)

Khoobg
Webmaster

Sep 6, 2001, 3:01 AM

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I am not sure whether your present aeration is sufficient for your koi. Observe your koi at night to see if they always stay near to the top surface of your pond. Alternatively, you may wish to purchase test kit to check oxygen level in your pond.

If you have additional budget, always install a Hi-Blow which will always ensure that your pond will have sufficient DO level(Dissolved Oxygen).

johnson lee
Koi Kichi

Sep 6, 2001, 4:19 AM

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Hi Khoo

How much would it cost me to purchase a hi-blow? Where can I get it and any particular brand you would like to recommend?

How would one install a hi-blow?

Thanks!

Johnson

(This post was edited by jtklee on May 9, 2001, 2:00 PM)

Khoobg
Webmaster

Sep 6, 2001, 6:51 AM

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Hi-Blow itself is the brand. You can purchase it from Cheras Aquarium or others. I have bought two quite sometime ago at around RM 750.00 for the 80watt model. Price should be higher by now.

Joshua Lee
Koi Lover

Sep 6, 2001, 8:33 AM

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Dear Johnson

Sorry to hear about the loss of another koi. These things happen to everybody. Don't take it to heart.

Glad you have made those tests. Reminds me of my annual medical checkup when the doc goes through the whole range of blood test readings. "Hmmmmmmmm.. cholesterol too high, need exercise, blood sugar level OK...."

Hmmmmmm. PH seems OK ...

Ammonia should be below 0.1 mg/l (mg/l is the same as ppm) and yours show 0 to 0.25 mg/l so yours look borderline and manageable. A higher PH like yours makes ammonia poisoning more dangerous so you may have to keep an eye on this one.

Nitrites - ideal is less than 0.2 mg/l but yours is 0.3 to 0.8 mg/l which is not quite healthy. Increasing the salt concentration will buffer the effects of nitrite poisoning. You should also do a water change to reduce this one.

Nitrates - ideal less than 50 mg/l . Yours is 12.5 mg/l which is superb.

Looks like the only danger is nitrites and possibly ammonia. Should think you should dump in 18 Kg of salt to make 0.3 % salt concentration kill bugs.

Oxygen, or lack of it could be another killer and if you see you koi staying under the waterfall most of the time, you could suspect that the dissolved oxygen is not enough. You could buy an oxygen test kit to be sure (should be more than 5 ppm) or invest in a Hi-Blow straightaway as more oxygen is always better.

I guess the thing to do now is to hope the salt treatment will cure the koi. For the long term you could work on improving the filter system to boost the de-nitrification process.

I am not really an expert so I hope the others can comment as well.

Best regards and cheers always Smile

Josh

johnson lee
Koi Kichi

Sep 6, 2001, 2:16 PM

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Hi Josh/Khoo

I went to my koi dealer this evening and he too told me that my problem could be the lack of aeration in my pond. He said the sleepy behaviour of the fishes is due to insufficient DO and this was what exactly both of you suspected as well. Granted that all of you are right, how would you explain the reddish tinge on the fishes' scales, the red vein-like marks on the fishes' bodies and the redness in the dead kois' gills? Are these not symptoms of some viral/bacterial infections?

Since the Hi-Blow is rather expensive, I was recommended the Laguna aeration pump which I brought back and installed at the other end of the pond. He also sold me 10 capsules of I think it was called Furan which is supposed to kill any bacteria in the pond. When I installed the pump at the bottom of the pond, the fishes looked more active than usual but the infected fishes still did not improve. I added the Furan and the whole pond turned green.

I hope things will gradually improve. I will continue to test the water daily for the time being and post them for your comments.

I was thinking if putting in 18kgs of salt into the pond would be a good idea? Perhaps I should just monitor the water conditions and see if the fishes improve after a few more days.

Regards

Johnson

johnson lee
Koi Kichi

Sep 7, 2001, 12:09 AM

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Good morning Josh/Khoo

I woke up this morning and the water is still slightly greenish in colour, I supposed due to the fungal powder I put in last night.

I did another round of tests and readings are as follows :-

pH - between 7.5 - 8.0 Smile

Ammonia - 0 mg/l Smile

Nitrates - between 0.8 - 1.6 mg/l Frown

Nitrites - between 0 - 12.5 mg/l

So it looks like the killer here is the nitrates. Perhaps because my filter has yet to settle down, it has not been able to produce beneficial bacteria (BB) to break down the nitrates. In the interim, how will I be able to reduce the nitrates?

I was going through some archives and I came across a discussion on filter, in it Khoo actually had a diagram that showed the proper way to arrange the Japanese mat. I always thought that the logical way would be to place them against the flow of water to better trap waste and it would have a larger surface area for BB to colonise the mat. Why is it that Khoo advised that these matting be place vertically? Any reason? How will I know when the BB has started colonising the mat and on average how long would it take for these stuff to stabilise?

I know right now I have been asking questions and nothing but questions and have yet to contribute positively to this forum. Pls. forgive me but I promised that I will read up more on the subject and later through my own experience, I too would be able to provide answers to newcomers' queries.

So Josh, you still think I should go ahead and dump 18kgs of salt into my pond? Smile

I fear that it may become too salty and even marine fish would want to live there! Smile

Just kidding. Anyway, if it is for the good of the koi, I will do it.

Regards

Johnson

Sean
Koi Lover

Sep 7, 2001, 2:15 AM

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Hi Johnson,

I'm also new with this hobby...about 1 1/2 years now. Learning thru experience, thought.
I did once with my pond with 54kg of salt...due to 01 koi that was not quarrantine enough...this affect the whole pond.

Initially, I was quite reluctant to do so but what the heck!!! my koi are dying. all the creeping plants and algae just wash off!!The kois' would have a "burning sensation" and start leaping out from the water at time. After 03 days....all the 21 kois' are safe!!

Thanks God...we should listen to the expert!!

Regards,

johnson lee
Koi Kichi

Sep 7, 2001, 3:48 AM

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Hi Sean

Nice to hear from someone other than Khoo/Josh! Not that I do not like their company and advice but I was afraid of "dominating" their time too much lest they have no time to advise others! Smile

Wow 54kgs of salt! And I thought 18 kgs was a lot! Why did you need so much salt? Your pond must be humongous? Is it because the one koi that you put into the pond carried bacteria/fungal infection?

Anyway, thank you for the advice and I will purchase the salt this weekend and put them into the pond and hopefully eliminate all the bacteria/virus/fungus etc. once and for all!

I am still in the process of figuring out the real problem of my pond. Khoo feels that the heart of the problem was the lack of aeration in the pond, which in turn led to a host of other complications. Josh thinks that it is a combination of bacteria and lack of aeration. I supposed both of them are right and since my nitrates reading is still on the high side, that could also be a contributory factor as well.

All said, I am learning a lot in the process. The trick is to maintain a harmonious balance of all these factors then perhaps I can then sit back and enjoy the many hours of pleasure and joy the kois and the pond will bring. Smile

Cheers!

Johnson

Khoobg
Webmaster

Sep 7, 2001, 6:22 AM

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Hi Johnson,

I guess you will have to find out the problem by elimination. Check your DO level ASAP. If DO is OK, then you will have to look into what Josh has mentioned.

Take care.

johnson lee
Koi Kichi

Sep 7, 2001, 7:33 AM

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Hi Khoo

Thanks for the advice and yes I will be going about this via the process of elimination and hope to zero in on the culprit that has been giving me sleepless nights recently! Smile

Cheers!

Regards
Johnson

Joshua Lee
Koi Lover

Sep 7, 2001, 7:48 AM

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Hi Johnson

How are you kois coping with the Furan? Hope they are recovering. By the way 18 kg of salt in your 6 ton pond won't make it too salty. That's just 0.3% salt and some people maintain that level in their pond forever without any side effects. Perhaps you should not wait but go ahead with the salt treatment. If you can catch the sick fish you can give it a salt batch at 1.0% concentration for 15 minutes then put it back to 0.3% salt solution. That will cure it faster.

Your latest readings seems a bit funny. Nitrates level should be below 50 mg/l so if yours read 0.8 to 1.6 mg/l that should be no problem, unless you mix up the nitrites reading with the nitrates reading in which case your nitrites is 0.8 to 1.6 mg/l and that spells danger in capital letters as nitrites should not be more than 0.2 mg/l. Should do another water change immediately if so, to bring down nitrites then salt the pond.

Filter mats in the bio chamber (normally last chamber) should be placed horizontally to the flow of water so that they are not so easily clogged up by particles and waste. In a mechanical filter (first chamber) it should be placed vertical to the flow of water so that it can trapped as much waste as possible but in the last stage of biological filter it should have the least resistance so that the water passes through freely and the bacteria can go ahead with its job of converting ammonia and nitrites to less harmful nitrates uninterrupted as you don't have to wash the mats often when they get clogged up.

Sean must have either a big pond to put in 54 kg of salt or he was doing a "kamikaze" type treatment. But sometimes drastic measures do work! Depends on whether we are game enough to take the risk!

Anyway, keep smiling. You will overcome!

Best regards. Cheers!
Smile

Josh

Carina
Koi Lover

Sep 7, 2001, 9:11 AM

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Hi

I think it is safer to add the salt gradually. If all the salt is added to the pond at one shot, some of the weaker kois may not be able to take it. Just imagine applying salt to your ulcers, it can be very painful.

Also, make sure the salt does not contain iodine or any other additives.

johnson lee
Koi Kichi

Sep 7, 2001, 3:06 PM

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Hi Josh/Carina

Thanks for taking time to reply. Yep, Josh, you're right. I got mixed up with Nitrites and Nitrates. The readings should be 0.8-1.6 mg/l for the former and 0-12.5mg/l for the latter. Sorry. Smile

I have just changed 50% of the water as suggested by you only yesterday. Now you want me to change water again!? Aaaaaaghhh!What about all the salt and Furan and anti-chlorine I have put in, won't it be a waste?

It seems that the combination of additional aeration, the water change and the Furan is slowly but surely making a difference to the kois. They seemed to be more active and moving about again. Smile

Even the koi that was critically ill the last time I reported is getting better.

Khoo, I have removed the Balinese-type pot from the filter outlet and allowed the water to gush out naturally and this has created a much stronger splash thus creating more DO. I have also added an aeration pump at the other end of the pond. To create more bubbles, I fixed a horizontal PVC pipe and drilled about 8-10 small holes in it. This, I placed at the bottom of the pond to create additional water circulation.

I have checked on another thread and found the DIY venturi to be quite easy to make so I am also dismantling the fountain and use the pump and then make a DIY venturi this weekend to further add DO into the pond.

I guess for the benefit of the kois' health, aesthetics can take second place in relation to survival!

Thank you Carina for your advice about adding the pond salt gradually, I supposed it makes sense to put them in slowly.

I think I will take a middle-ground approach by changing about 20% of the water tomorrow instead of 50% again. I will then test the water again and post results. In the meantime, I will be buying 18kgs of salt and introduce it on a gradual basis to avoid any serious reaction from the infected kois.

This is such a great site! Everyone helps anyone here! A novice can glean so much info from the discussions that I think there is no need to buy a reference book.

Since tomorrow, oops I mean today is my birthday, my wish is that all my kois will be hale and hearty soon and I will be able to feed them from my hand! Smile

Not too much to ask, I guess!

Cheerio!

Regards
Johnson

Sean
Koi Lover

Sep 7, 2001, 10:24 PM

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You're right, Josh! (do or die stuff)
For me, looking at the kois' "parking" themself without movement really disturbing!
(Just like those cars in the car park...one by one they fall in line under the shade!) Furthermore, kois' with white patch turns red! Can you imagine that!

I've learned one good lesson from this thought....never buy kois' that have not past their quarrantine period.

Anyway, we learn thru' experience, don't we. I'm very careful now.

Regards

Joshua Lee
Koi Lover

Sep 8, 2001, 12:11 AM

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Happy Birthday Johnson

Good to take a "middle of the road" approach. I guess it should be all right to take things slowly if the situation is not May Day. For Sean's case the "do or die" method was the best as it was critical and he would be losing them if he did not do anything anyway. Somebody said that a critical situation is like a house on fire. You would want the firemen to pull you out immediately rather than slowly. But if it is just a small fire, you would want to rescue some of your antique furniture!

Good to hear from Carina.

Cheers!
Smile

Josh

dttk
Senior Member

Sep 8, 2001, 12:18 AM

Post #25 of 59 (5334 views)
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Hi Johnson, Happy Birthday to you and may your wish come true! Smile

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