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Home: KOI Talk: Pond Water Quality:
Help with green water beyond UV

 





 


eps
Koi Lover

Jun 5, 2006, 1:51 AM

Post #1 of 18 (2471 views)
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Help with green water beyond UV Can't Post
Hello, I have a 2500 Gallon pond (pictured below) that recieves full sun for the entire day. I have green water beyond control and am developing quite the string algae problem. My filter may not be the best, and insight on that would also be greatly appreciated. I have a Hayward 21" filled with Ultima II media (approx. 2.25 cu. ft.) in sync with a 5800GPH sequence pump. My fish rate is relatively low with less than 9 occupants (2 are out from ulcer treatment in a seperate tank) and only 3 are over 12" in length. My 55 watt laguna UV sterilizer is not currently plugged in as the pump that powers it is running my quarantine chamber, but it never seems to fully solve my problem anyways. Any advice would help. Large trees in front are not a viable option as my neighborhood has restrictions for object height in the backyard and it would also obstruct my view from the kitchen and deck. I am so tempted to tear up everything, trees included, and redesign... but my money is tight and as this is only my safe haven for the summer (as I attend college elsewhere) my parents might flip out. I appreciate any advice provided!

My 20" hi utsuri and 12" nidan kohaku with other fish just a few inches below the water. Sooo green...

My pond to help showcase the reason for no shade and water concern.

Thx,
John


(This post was edited by eps on Jun 5, 2006, 1:58 AM)


smithy
Koi Lover

Jun 5, 2006, 2:17 AM

Post #2 of 18 (2462 views)
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Re: [eps] Help with green water beyond UV [In reply to] Can't Post
wow i like your garden- the pond fits in really well. What power is your Uv light? I would advise maybe getting a bigger filter, your pump is strong enough to feed a large filter system so if your on a budget how about trying a DIY one.
Another good thing to add would be an air pump. You could place a air stone at the deepest parts and this will move any particles which arnt being sucked up buy the filter. BAsically think of it as a churning motion of your whole water. Then eventually all the particles or most will be moved and eventually filtered to leave better quality water.
You can also buy water treatments to comabt algae, such as barley extracts etc etc. Not sure how effective these are. But just some ideas for you to look into


eps
Koi Lover

Jun 5, 2006, 3:35 AM

Post #3 of 18 (2461 views)
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Re: [smithy] Help with green water beyond UV [In reply to] Can't Post
Hey Smithy,
Thanks for the rapid response. I have a 55 watt Laguna UV. I am running an air stone to the left side of the bottom drain and this noticably aids in oxygenation. A DIY filter is a good idea, and probably will be my ultimate solution where I could potentially do an upflow system. I am interested in adding a skimmer. I am ashamed I do not already have one. I was wondering if a pool skimmer that was accepatble for vinyl liner pools could be retro fitted to a .45mil epdm liner pond? I have a 2400 GPH pond master that I could use to run this, but would I be ok just merely ball valving the skimmer and running it in unison with my drain? Would my drain also need a valve to make sure it did not just just pull from the bottom but gave the skimmer some juice?

This is perhaps a solid example of what DIY upflow filter I could fit into my slot of land...

This image was taken from http://www.shooterdog.com/biofiltr.htm

Any suggestions to modify such a chamber other than dropping in an airstone? Any media suggestions as I do not have PVC ribbon... but could potentially find some.

Thanks,
John


smithy
Koi Lover

Jun 5, 2006, 4:12 AM

Post #4 of 18 (2458 views)
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Re: [eps] Help with green water beyond UV [In reply to] Can't Post
Your Uv is definitly powerful enough. How is this attached- perhaps the flow through it is too fast and doesnt allow enought time for the Uv rays to do their thing? If that isnt the problem- it must be the sunlight on the pond. If there is a way to shade the pond without planting trees then i think this would help. A bigger filter would definitly help the problem though. About the skimmer- i would do what you suggested and a small pump can alwasy be added to power the skimmer if it turns out it doesnt work.
hope this helps


kloh
Koi Lover

Jun 5, 2006, 9:10 AM

Post #5 of 18 (2447 views)
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Re: [eps] Help with green water beyond UV [In reply to] Can't Post
UV lights work. I had green water just as bad as yours in my 1500 gallon pond when my old light stopped working. I put in a 9W light and it cleared up the water within 2 days. Based on that, your 55W light is more than powerful enough. My pond is also exposed to a lot of sunlight. I agree with Smithy that you should check the flow through rate which may be too fast. My 9W light has a built in water pump and the flow through rate is pretty slow.


zoul
Member

Jun 6, 2006, 12:09 AM

Post #6 of 18 (2420 views)
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Re: [eps] Help with green water beyond UV [In reply to] Can't Post
Dear eps

How deep is your pond ? Shallow ponds tend to green up faster than deap ones.

You could try using barley straw, it takes alittle time for the chemical reaction to get going and you might have to get a bail or so every year.

You could try a veggy filter to eat up your nitrates. i have a thingy for that.

Vegetable Filters

Biological filters convert the most toxic elements of decay and fish waste into less harmful compounds.

Two of these, "Nitrates" and "Phosphates" can build up in the water and create problems such as water discolouration, algal growth and greater susceptibility of fish to disease. Chemical filtration can be used to reduce or remove these compounds but this can be expensive, especially in the larger pond. Regular partial (Not more than 10% of total volume) water changes also help. An alternative is construction of a vegetable filter.

These are usually constructed adjacent to the pond and consist of a lined area around 10 inches to 15 inches deep (25 to 38 cm.) filled with gravel. The area of the filter should be as large as possible. Plant out with quick growing, heavy Nitrate feeding plants such as Crassula, Nasturtium Aquaticum and Eleocharis. Water from the biological filter can be fed through the vegetable filter prior to returning to pond or alternatively pump fed directly from the pond.

A great bonus is creation of a bog environment which will enhance the landscaping of the immediate pond area and attract a host of wildlife.


eps
Koi Lover

Jun 6, 2006, 4:01 AM

Post #7 of 18 (2414 views)
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Re: [zoul] Help with green water beyond UV [In reply to] Can't Post
Thanks Zoul!

As I was reading your reply it dawned on me of the perfect spot and style construction I can use to create an amazing vegetable filter or bog. It is probably the best solution to my problem, as I recieve full sun, and plants that enjoy that factor go nuts. My pond is about 4 feet average depth, tapered to the drain. No shelves are present in it, just one bid drip. I believe I could get a small submersible pump and build a raised veggie/bog filter that would have another small waterfall return to the pond. It will take careful planning to make sure the pump works freely and distributes the water in a nice uniform manor, but I think I have that idea under control. My UV @ 55Watts can clear my pond, but I have it off atm due to the pump that runs it being used in my quarantine chamber for my sick yamabuki and hariwake (ulcers from a harsh spring.. looking promising with tricide-neo treatments). Anyways, that sounds like a wonderful soultion. What is your opinion of the above waterfall chamber image I posted, and could that be nicely topped with say... water hyacinths and water lettuce, as long as a barrier string was attached so they did not topple over the falls? Is that perhaps another decent vegetable filter touch?

Thanks,
John


zoul
Member

Jun 6, 2006, 6:12 AM

Post #8 of 18 (2404 views)
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Re: [eps] Help with green water beyond UV [In reply to] Can't Post
Dear eps

Sounds like a plan Wink.

What is this tricide-neo treatments? I've never heard of that...

Ulcers are coursed by bacteria so i take it it's an anti-bacterial agent. Hopefully.

The waterfall chamber looks very effective. Yes a few plants would look nice in that.

You seem to have a big garden. If i had a garden that size i'd have me a lake.... some say i already got a lake. But i still would like it bigger..


smithy
Koi Lover

Jun 6, 2006, 6:19 AM

Post #9 of 18 (2403 views)
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Re: [zoul] Help with green water beyond UV [In reply to] Can't Post
yep you already have a lake mate.


eps
Koi Lover

Jun 6, 2006, 11:55 AM

Post #10 of 18 (2385 views)
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Re: [zoul] Help with green water beyond UV [In reply to] Can't Post
Tricide-neo was actually recommended to me by koi38. Its a powder that is mixed into distilled water, either 1 gallon or 5 gallons depending on the size package purchased. It cost around 55-60 US dollars. Basically, you store the mixed solution in a tub with a lid, place an airstone in it when in use, and it keeps for about 1 week. You take your infected koi(s) and place them one at a time in the solution, called 'dipping'. Watch them for crazy reactions. You dip for as long as you can, try and reach about 5 minutes, anything over 7 could be very harmful. Results are noticed usually after 3 treatments. My hariwake is making a wonderful comeback. Unfortunately my yamabuki was hit pretty hard by an ulcer, fin rot, and even mouth rot! He is showing improvement as well, but I am not sure if he can still self repair at this stage or if more treatment will be needed. (I have 1 day left before I need to dump my mixed batch). Anyways, I recommend it, works wonderfully, and like anything else, if you hit it early, the results are better. If the problem is already escalated, its harder to treat regardless of method.

I would love to make that entire garden a pond, but its not officially "my garden". I live half of the year in Detroit MI and half in Grand Rapids MI (where the garden is and I head home for summer). This is my parents home and they would greatly object to any such move, as the koi for them are a second to the garden. I'd rather have no yard at all and a massive koi extravaganza! :D Maybe someday... heheh.


utsuri
Koi Lover

Jun 15, 2006, 6:00 AM

Post #11 of 18 (2202 views)
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Re: [eps] Help with green water beyond UV [In reply to] Can't Post
Good looking pond!!!!! Now lets fix the water in it. Even though you have 2500 gallons and a realtivley low fish population, you will need a bigger biofilter. This will help stop the headaches the future will bring for you. koi will grow huge and will soon over crowd your pond.
I see you also have foam on the surface. The problem is too many nutrients in the water. Chances are it is comming from the food. All of my ponds are in full sun like yours. This what I did.
Knowing that koi have very short digestive tracts the food moves through really quick. This is the natural design of a vegetarian fish. high motabolism in sunshine and water water does not help either. It speeds it all up until the water temp reaches upper 80's. So take your feeding and reduce the volume by 20%. This will not starve the fish. By design of thier digestive system, it will let most of the food in the gut digest and not flow right through them. Undigested food is rich with nutrients and when mixed with sun, BOOM!!! Green water!!!! Do a 50% water change and try this for abot a week. YOu should see the results comming in a few days.
Watch the girth of the fish. It should not change at all. If so feed more often not more volume at one time.
koi over 6 inches need 3% of thier body wieght daily. Not all at once. Spread it out over the day.
My numbers may need some playing around with. Every pond is different but this should work and work well. Water changes will only help as a temporary solution but still do them.
Try to keep waste from building up on the pond floor.

Hint: UV is only treating the "cough" and not the problem.


PondMasterHung
New User

Jun 23, 2006, 12:09 PM

Post #12 of 18 (2105 views)
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Re: [eps] Help with green water beyond UV [In reply to] Can't Post
Hello ESP,
It seems like you have a pretty green pond there. If this continue, your fish will be done for! I first would make sure you hook up your UV or check it out to see if its working for your fish sake. As for water quality beyond uv....I would consider a more effective filter, if not I would invest in putting in a well! You can't get any better than a well for a filter system!


betsymax
Koi Lover


Jun 24, 2006, 11:54 PM

Post #13 of 18 (2073 views)
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Re: [eps] Help with green water beyond UV [In reply to] Can't Post
hi eps, how old is your UV? The bulb wears off after 8 months of continuous use. so if you have been using it for a longer period of time, you might wanna replace this. but like the others have suggested, its better to fix up your filtration system right away. you may have heard of the rule in koikeeping that your filtration should be 1/3 of the total volume of your pond, that of course is the ideal size but i'm sure you can cheat a little in this regard.

here in the philippines where the sunshine is bad all year, a UV lamp is a must in an outdoor pond.
and some of us just buy the UV bulb itself and hang it 2 inches away from the water surface inside the filters. it is mounted just like an ordinary flouresent bulb and in my experience gets the job done as wel. no hassles for an extra pump, no extra electricity costs.

my two cents.


eps
Koi Lover

Jun 25, 2006, 4:08 AM

Post #14 of 18 (2064 views)
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Re: [betsymax] Help with green water beyond UV [In reply to] Can't Post
Thanks for the advice. I have a 55 watt laguna UV light. It works wonders, as my pond is merely around 2700 gallons when topped off. I was attempting to beat the green water w/o the necessity of turning it on, however I just gave in. The UV is now in operation and working just fine. My water is crystal clear and my poor koi is now probably getting a bit too much sun for her own good. I am now onto my next mission of trying to provide shade in a very restrictive neighborhood. My thoughts went to a bridge, 10' long and 2.5' wide. However, I am afraid as my pond is further out in the year that this would cover too much surface area :/

I have heard that koi are a schooling fish and NEED a partner for personal 'happiness'. I recently lost my collection save for my 20" Hi Utsuri that was much more resiliant. I brought it in for a shot and it is doing great now. I was wondering how pressed an issue it is to get a second koi or can I take the time to find the "right one" for my pond?

I am excited to see how fast it will grow now that it has 4.5' of depth, 13+' of length, and 7 feet of width to swim all by itself :)


zoul
Member

Jun 25, 2006, 8:40 AM

Post #15 of 18 (2057 views)
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Re: [eps] Help with green water beyond UV [In reply to] Can't Post
Yes take your time make sure you quarentine any new arivals before introducing them. Might be worth while getting a couple of goldfish for your new Q tank. One dark and one light that way any illness parasites ect will show up on one or the other.

Rember if you have a fish in quarentine and buy another you have to start the whole quarentine prosess from scratch.


betsymax
Koi Lover


Jun 26, 2006, 12:49 AM

Post #16 of 18 (2042 views)
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Re: [eps] Help with green water beyond UV [In reply to] Can't Post
wow. all that space for a single Koi? you'll need to buy a companion bec that precious fish of yours will become lethargic. I heard from some fishkeepers that its growth will stunt if left alone. they say it has something to do with its natural tendency of trying to be the biggest fish in the pond not being a priority, how true it is, i'll never know. But one thing for sure is that fish of yours will be lonely until you find a suitable companion for it.

my suggestion is that you get a Chagoi. I'm not so sure if you're familiar with that genre but its the friendliest of all types of Koi. I believe every pond needs one bec these Koi tend to be the most hungry and fastest growing variety and they tend to influence the others from feeding close to the koi keepers hands. Its kinda dull in color but for sure bec of its character it will find its way to being one of the favorites. The wife and kids love it on my pond.

hope this helps.


eps
Koi Lover

Jun 26, 2006, 1:45 AM

Post #17 of 18 (2039 views)
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Re: [betsymax] Help with green water beyond UV [In reply to] Can't Post
Yes, what you say makes sense. I will attempt to get another one when oppertunity arrives. I know that their are studies showing that some fish are stunted because of the presence of a larger one that wishes to remain dominent, but with no challenger, the sole koi might not grow.

Yes zoul, good idea with the quarantine, I will get right on that.

Also, last night I spent 5 hours constructing a 10 foot flat cedar bridge in my garage. I am not sure how it will look, but I figured my koi needed a shaded area of the pond during those hot summer days. Look for it under the DIY section, as I photographed the construction and kept track of parts/cost.

It looks more like a dock.... but hey, its kinda neat :D

John


zoul
Member

Jun 27, 2006, 1:06 AM

Post #18 of 18 (1993 views)
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Re: [eps] Help with green water beyond UV [In reply to] Can't Post
Oh dear thats so terrible to lose all your fish save one... i bet you never wanna leave you house again?

Any ways a couple of men in england where i live have a fish a koi world champion this koi they have. It's a kahaku only cost them half a million pounds sterling Crazy. And they keep it all by itself in a 6000 gallon pond. The only time that poor fish sees another fish is at shows.

I'm not sure if koi get lonely as that would be ampropomorthic to say they do. And they are not realy shoaling fish. They do form loose shaols but i spose thats becouse many eyes can see more preditors.

Personaly i think they are far to good looking to be alone. But i've never just had one so i can't say if they get stressed just being alone.

 
 
 



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