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Home: KOI Talk: Pond Water Quality:
Pond Turnover Rate

 






 


Carpa Diem
Koi Lover

Apr 30, 2007, 3:27 PM

Post #1 of 11 (3363 views)
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Pond Turnover Rate Can't Post

Hi,

I have a 81 tons pond with 35 kois of various sizes that is still having green water problems after 5 months. The pond sits in full sun all day.

I have a Waterco 3hp pump that pulls 36,000 litres per hour from the pond into the bakki shower, and another 3 tsurumi pumps that pull a combined 38,000 litres per hour through the filters. The filter is about 1/3 the surface area of the pond.

Is the pond turnover rate sufficient to clear the pond? A good friend advised that I should increase pump capacity through the filters by another 43,000 litres per hour so that I can achieve pond turnover of once every hour through the filter chambers.

I will be grateful for any advice the right pond turnover I should aim for to clear up the pond.

Thanks,
Jeff


roy ong
Koi Lover

May 1, 2007, 10:12 AM

Post #2 of 11 (3347 views)
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Re: [Carpa Diem] Pond Turnover Rate [In reply to] Can't Post

put a UV light at the post-filter outlet line.buy a good european brand as the china made ones have very poor water-resistance/leak easily
u may on it whole day initially, when green water clears use 6-10 hours per day.
do not put it at filter inlet as it kills all the good bacteria needed by yr bio-filter


Carpa Diem
Koi Lover

May 1, 2007, 11:17 AM

Post #3 of 11 (3342 views)
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Re: [roy ong] Pond Turnover Rate [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks, Roy.

I have 6 UV lights, but that does not solve the problem. The contractor suggested installing more UV lights, but before doing that, I'm trying to find out if his current recommended pondturnover of once every 2 hours is correct.

Also, I'm trying to figure out if the bakki turnover should also be considered.

Some hobbyists are saying that the turnover through the filter chambers should be once every hour, and the bakki shower is to be disregarded. I'm confused, and wonder which advice to follow on pond turnover rate.

Best Regards,
Jeff


roy ong
Koi Lover

May 1, 2007, 11:42 AM

Post #4 of 11 (3339 views)
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Re: [Carpa Diem] Pond Turnover Rate [In reply to] Can't Post

Jeff
u may try to instal a bakki shower
the turnover rate will not help green water as it is high nitrate levels u have to bring down.
add plantings to decrease nitrate plus partial shading. changing filter flow rate will destabilize yr eco-sys n yr other parameters may go haywire. yr problem is high nitrate with green bloom, contributed by sunlight also.
if nitrite/ammonia levels normal yr filter is doing well n no changes required in filter volume/turnover rate
partial water changes may be requiredto bring yr nitrates down

happy holiday man


hazard
Koi Lover

May 2, 2007, 9:38 PM

Post #5 of 11 (3286 views)
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Re: [roy ong] Pond Turnover Rate [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds like a huge pond.
Have you considered building a pergola over it to give the pond some shade ?


koinutx
Koi Lover


May 3, 2007, 10:22 AM

Post #6 of 11 (3263 views)
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Re: [Carpa Diem] Pond Turnover Rate [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

with my limited knowledge on your pond setup, can I only share some general comments.

You are running 2 sets of Filters in parallel, and hence, the flow rates cannot be added together to determine the turnover rates.

In your 81tons, each filter is probably running at once every 2.5hr. (considering the flow pressure reduction)

If you have a 1/3 surface area for your wet biological filter, it may be worth a try to increase the flow over there first.

For the Bekki shower, you would need to determine the size and media relatively to your pond size first, before you want to increase the flow.

Blush


Carpa Diem
Koi Lover

May 3, 2007, 12:56 PM

Post #7 of 11 (3252 views)
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Re: [hazard] Pond Turnover Rate [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

I'm thinking of shading as a last option as a pergola will mess up the look of the front garden.

Read somewhere on this forum that you can have a clear unshaded pond, and hope to try for that.

Thanks,
Jeff


(This post was edited by Carpa Diem on May 3, 2007, 1:09 PM)


Carpa Diem
Koi Lover

May 3, 2007, 1:06 PM

Post #8 of 11 (3250 views)
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Re: [koinutx] Pond Turnover Rate [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for your reply.

I installed an extra 8500 litres per hour pump running through the bio filter chambers, and the water cleared up from dark green into a light yellowish green. I'm looking for some more standby pumps to try for a once every hour pond turnover before making new pump installations a permanent solution.

I have tried UV lights, more bio media, lighter feeding, vegetation filters and save for shading -- increasing pond turnover rate is my last bet. Is there such a thing as a standard rule of thumb pond turnover rate?

Thanks,
Jeff


(This post was edited by Carpa Diem on May 3, 2007, 1:11 PM)


thiamhwa
Member / Moderator

May 3, 2007, 2:23 PM

Post #9 of 11 (3238 views)
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Re: [Carpa Diem] Pond Turnover Rate [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Carpa Diem,

For your information, the article " An ideal 12 tons pond and filter system " written by Eric Lim
from the Singapore Koi Club suggested that the total capacity pump turnover rate should not
be less than once per hour.

Most of the koi books which are written by authors in western countries would recommend a
turnover rate of once every 2 hours. I think that is becos' they have the different 4 seasons
and probably no feeding during the winter season. In my opinion, I would suggest a min. 1 to 1.5
times turnover rate per hour due to our constant heavy feedings to the koi all year round.

I think your added additional pump is already a proof that you need to increase the turnover rate.
If you notice, most of our koi dealers locally who has big ponds would normally go for 'FOK' pump
because of the high volume of water turnover by the pump.

Best Regards,
Thiam Hwa


HWONG
Koi Addict

May 3, 2007, 6:29 PM

Post #10 of 11 (3218 views)
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Re: [Carpa Diem] Pond Turnover Rate [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Jeff,
How green is green? Cant see fish or just not crystal clear? Your pond is stil very new. HAs carpet algae fully covered the pond walls?. How much filter materials do you have in the filter? How much aeration do you have in pond and filter.

I remember i yr post, your bakki is somewhat enclosed in a plexiglass? If so, I believe gaseous exchange is not at optimum hence the bakki is not functioning at its potential.

Assuming that you have been hardworking geeting rid of the solid waste,this is what I think. 1st we need good gaseous exchange to rid of ammonia. then lots of aerobic bacteria to eat up the nitrite and nitrate. This we need adequate filter material to house them and lots of aeration to help them work. Then a nice thick coat of carpet algae on our pond walls to eat up whatever is missed by the bacteria.

My renovated pond has been running for 2 months and still has a slight yellowish tinge. I have 46 tons and running 2 filter lines: 2X 12k liter pumps up a shower and 1X 12k pump direct to pond. I have a 20 watt UV. I also have 2 uni-rings powered by 100 watt airpump each. Also have 2 X 80watts for the filter. My pond is 20% shaded.
I intend to raise the height in between the trays of my shower as the current height is not allowing efficient gaseous exchange.
Also, CArpet algae is not growing well in my epoxy-coated pond. and they are a big nitrate consumer. I just have to wait a little longer and maybe you will have to as wellWink


Carpa Diem
Koi Lover

May 3, 2007, 10:22 PM

Post #11 of 11 (3207 views)
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Re: [HWONG] Pond Turnover Rate [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

Thanks for chipping in. The answers to your questions are in italics:


In Reply To

How green is green? Cant see fish or just not crystal clear? Yellowish green. Usually worse in mid-late afternoon under hot sun. Water clear to one third down 6 ft pond at night. Not crystal clear, but can see fish clearly when they swin near the surface. HAs carpet algae fully covered the pond walls? Yes, healthy dark green except where epoxy coating is peeling. How much filter materials do you have in the filter? 1st chamber of filter brush, 2nd chamber of Kaldanes K1, 3rd and 4th chambers of Japanese mat, last chamber of oyster shells and bio balls. All the filter chambers are aerated. I also have a waterfall with 2 7ft x 3ft glass panels coated with an experimental Japanese photocatalyst oxidation coating that cleans organic matter under sunlight and night UV light from a thin film of water and a 7ft by 5 ft concrete wall studded with broken bacteria house and marble chips over which a thin film of water cascades. Both the glass panels and studded wall creates turbulent white water and foam collects at the bottom of that section which houses my lotus and water lily vegetation filter. Water spills from that section into the main pond. How much aeration do you have in pond and filter. I am running 2 units of Hiblow 120 through 3 uniring airlifts built around 3 bottom drains and the filter chambers. The bakki shower cascades over 3 PVC columns with holes in the inside 8 in pipe with a outside 10in pipe with holes at the top and bottom. Only the middle part of the outer pipe have no holes to prevent splashing -- seems to work well with thorough mixing of white water as they cascade over lava rocks/experimental porous ceramic bricks and bioballs. Air is sucked in from the top of the columns and also in between the pipes and through the holes in the inner pipe and escapes through the bottom holes. The bakki trough also houses another vegetation filter with arrow plants and Japanese yam plants, which spills over a stream lined with river rocks before falling into the main pond. I am also experimenting with some flat porous lava rock tiles on this 6ft x 2.5 ft stream to create more turbulent white water to improve aeration. I'm now toying with getting a 80 cm Japanese suisha water wheel for this stream to improve aeration when I visit Japan later this year.

I remember i yr post, your bakki is somewhat enclosed in a plexiglass? If so, I believe gaseous exchange is not at optimum hence the bakki is not functioning at its potential. Maybe you are right here. Will consider changing to bakki tray system after figuring out the correct pond turnover rate and the water still fails to clear up.

Assuming that you have been hardworking geeting rid of the solid waste,this is what I think. I religiously empty the 1st and 2nd chamber every morning -- 10% water change is about 8 tons of water which blew up my water bill! Plus weekly cleaning of the brushes and filter chambers 2 at a time. 1st we need good gaseous exchange to rid of ammonia. then lots of aerobic bacteria to eat up the nitrite and nitrate. This we need adequate filter material to house them and lots of aeration to help them work. Then a nice thick coat of carpet algae on our pond walls to eat up whatever is missed by the bacteria. As you can see, I've been quite busy experimenting with all sorts of methods to improve the water quality. I also have 5 UV lights -- 3 for the clean water chamber and 2 for glass waterfall panels.

My renovated pond has been running for 2 months and still has a slight yellowish tinge. I have 46 tons and running 2 filter lines: 2X 12k liter pumps up a shower and 1X 12k pump direct to pond. I have a 20 watt UV. I also have 2 uni-rings powered by 100 watt airpump each. Also have 2 X 80watts for the filter. My pond is 20% shaded.
I intend to raise the height in between the trays of my shower as the current height is not allowing efficient gaseous exchange.
Also, CArpet algae is not growing well in my epoxy-coated pond. and they are a big nitrate consumer. I just have to wait a little longer and maybe you will have to as wellWink With a total pump output of 36 tons per hour, your pond turnover is once every 1.27 hours. My contractor recommended 3 Tsurumi 40PU pumps (1 for the waterfall and 2 for the water circulation jets) with a measly combined output of 25.5 tons per hour and a pond turnover of once every 3.25 hours! After doing all I could to improve the water (short of shading the pond with an expensive pergola that the sub-contractor is hoping for and my missus is dead against), I have realised to my dismay that I might have been shortchanged by the pond contractor who may just be doing a bad job on basic technical stuff such as right sizing of pumps! The other thing that bothers me is the water in the up down filter chambers are at least 4 inches above the brushes and 12 inches above the Jap filter mats. The Jap filter mats have gaps of 6 inches between the chamber walls, and I do wonder if dirty water is basically channelling though all these gaps into the pond. The sub-contractor keeps saying that the chamber design is fine and water must stay long enough in the filter chambers for the nitrifying bacteria to work and that I should stop feeding and move out all the fishes save for 6 only and I should spend another RM50K on a pergola! Duh -- why didn't he suggest keeping the pond empty??? After 5 months of tinkering around, is the culprit simply the lousy contractors getting the pump capacity wrong? They have screwed up often enough with peeling water proof layers, wrong electrical wiring which caused a small fire, killing show winners etc... Is it possible they might have screwed up the pond turnover rate too? FrownFrownFrown Jeff



(This post was edited by Carpa Diem on May 3, 2007, 10:35 PM)

 
 
 



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