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Salt Replenishment: How much do we add?

 




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lamig747
User


Sep 28, 2009, 7:15 AM

Post #1 of 67 (15378 views)
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Salt Replenishment: How much do we add? Can't Post

Hi GUys,

I tried to find articles in the forum and in google re how much salt to replenish but couldnt find one. I have read that we need to keep 0.1% and so my question is:
1) when we replace x % water, do we add y amount of salt to make up the original 0.1% dosage?
2) does any salt dissappear through time because of chemical rxns in the pond? if yes, how much salt should we put in?

Know that we get salt through evap of seawater, but not sure its effect in ponds. Likewise, dont have a salt tester and would appreciate if forumers who do have a salt meter can share their experience.

Best rgds to all.


koi@kit
Veteran


Sep 28, 2009, 9:16 AM

Post #2 of 67 (15362 views)
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Re: [lamig747] Salt Replenishment: How much do we add? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi there..

salt will remain in pond water even if ur pond water evaporate.. the only way to reduce salt is do water change..

1) when we replace x % water, do we add y amount of salt to make up the original 0.1% dosage?
use a salt meter to check its more accurate
2) does any salt dissappear through time because of chemical rxns in the pond? if yes, how much salt should we put in?

alt will remain in pond water even if ur pond water evaporate.. the only way to reduce salt is do water change..

rgds
kit



simoneinzaghi88
User


Sep 28, 2009, 9:21 AM

Post #3 of 67 (15360 views)
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Re: [koi@kit] Salt Replenishment: How much do we add? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi, Koi@kit,

May I know how much does the salt meter cost? Also, how does it look like? I have a few test kits that I have recently purchased Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate and pH. All these are in liquid forms.

Is the salt meter also in liquid form? What salt meter do you use and what do you recommend should I plan to purchase one? Advice is much appreciated.

Thanks and regards.

Simon

p/s: I have been adding salt to the pond without knowing how much concentration it already has. It's like driving blindfolded.
Thanks and regards

Simon


koi@kit
Veteran


Sep 28, 2009, 9:30 AM

Post #4 of 67 (15358 views)
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Re: [simoneinzaghi88] Salt Replenishment: How much do we add? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi simon..

if u in singapore u can check out here for more ainfo abt the meter, i think it cost S$105.. its digital..

too much salt will make the white part of koi abit yellowish...Smile

rgds
kit


simoneinzaghi88
User


Sep 28, 2009, 9:34 AM

Post #5 of 67 (15354 views)
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Re: [koi@kit] Salt Replenishment: How much do we add? [In reply to] Can't Post

HI Bro koi@kit,

Thanks for the reply. Am in KL Malaysia.

Can someone please tell me what is the price range for a salt meter available in KL? What is the recommended brand and where can it be purchased?

Also, generally any favorite dealers in KL? Please kindly PM me if it is not appropriate to publish a dealer's name in the forum.

Thanks and regards.

Simon
Thanks and regards

Simon


PH8
Veteran


Sep 28, 2009, 10:05 AM

Post #6 of 67 (15344 views)
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Re: [simoneinzaghi88] Salt Replenishment: How much do we add? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Simon, sorry the photo of my salt meter was on another thread. Here it is, the lower one -




simoneinzaghi88
User


Sep 28, 2009, 10:07 AM

Post #7 of 67 (15339 views)
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Re: [PH8] Salt Replenishment: How much do we add? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Paul. How much does this Trans Instrument salt meter reader cost?
Thanks and regards

Simon


PH8
Veteran


Sep 28, 2009, 10:15 AM

Post #8 of 67 (15338 views)
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Re: [simoneinzaghi88] Salt Replenishment: How much do we add? [In reply to] Can't Post

About RM200, I believe.


lamig747
User


Sep 28, 2009, 2:59 PM

Post #9 of 67 (15296 views)
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Re: [PH8] Salt Replenishment: How much do we add? [In reply to] Can't Post

tnx guys for the quick suggestions.

PH8, i saw your youtube vids, your kois are beautiful!


larz1
Veteran


Sep 28, 2009, 8:47 PM

Post #10 of 67 (15278 views)
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Re: [lamig747] Salt Replenishment: How much do we add? [In reply to] Can't Post

It is a good idea to point out the fact that certain medications will kill your Koi if the water is salted. If you have been routinely adding salt there is a chance that you are already running at an excessive level that could take many water changes to remove. Salting the water for no particular reason is not necessary for Koi health and it can build up a resistance to salt among certain Koi pathogens that will make them even more difficult to treat if the need should ever arise.


simoneinzaghi88
User


Sep 29, 2009, 7:25 AM

Post #11 of 67 (15244 views)
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Re: [larz1] Salt Replenishment: How much do we add? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi larz1,

For our benefit as beginners, could you please name the medicines that are NOT to be used together with salt?
Thanks and regards

Simon


lamig747
User


Sep 29, 2009, 1:28 PM

Post #12 of 67 (15201 views)
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Re: [simoneinzaghi88] Salt Replenishment: How much do we add? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I second this. Need to know contraindications, if any, w salt.


larz1
Veteran


Sep 29, 2009, 6:23 PM

Post #13 of 67 (15183 views)
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Re: [simoneinzaghi88] Salt Replenishment: How much do we add? [In reply to] Can't Post

Any medication that is an "aldehyde" such as Formalin, Formaldehyde, Proform C, etc... The problem is that different parts of the world may market aldehyde's under different trade names so you always need to read the label instructions carefully.

Salt is a valuable tool for a very LIMITED number of purposes, and unfortunately a lot of very old and outdated information is still circulated around the web. KoiVet still has its very old article promoting Salt for the treatment of 7 of 9 major parasites even though the real number is only 2, as the overuse of Salt has caused all of the others to become salt resistant. Doc Johnson KNOWS this to be the case, but he has neglected to update the article still after all these yearsMad.

Maintaining additional salt in your pond hurts you in 2 major ways.
#1. It allows parasites to become more resistant to salt treatment and causes the use of salt to be completely ineffective.
#2. If you NEED to use an aldehyde treatment in your water you risk killing your entire collection.

It takes MANY water changes to dilute the salt out of solution once it has been added, which makes the use of aldehydes nearly impossible in a timely fashion. If a pond needs to be treated today, you don't want to find yourself in a situation of needing 2 weeks of daily water changes to remove the salt first! Formalin and Malachite Green are fairly common pond treatments that are often prescribed for fungal infections and certain parasites, so the ability to use them in a timely fashion can be very important in an infested pond.

I recommend using Salt as a concentrated dip or in a separate "hospital tank" for treating Koi as needed only.
There is only ONE exception for the pond as far as I'm concerned.
If you are experiencing new pond syndrome and have elevated NitrIte readings it is advisable to salt the pond to 0.15 to prevent brown blood disease while the filter becomes established. Once the filter has fully cycled, use regular water changes to remove the salt completely. That way if you need to perform treatments in the pond that are "salt sensitive" you can do so safely.


DavidSoon
Veteran


Sep 29, 2009, 7:57 PM

Post #14 of 67 (15171 views)
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Re: [larz1] Salt Replenishment: How much do we add? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Brother Larry

Totally agree with you 110 percent !!! SmileSmile . We must have graduated from the same academy on salination SlySly
The elementary usage of salt and it's purposes , pros and cons , had indeed been an oversight since long time ago SlySly.

Salt has been misused in many treatment I must add .
Dimilin and Melachite Green are still the effective medication for parasite infested pond and very safe for our Kois ,while Formalin related products , and even Chloromine -T can only be recommended for badly infested ponds , but has to be properly administered with the right dosage bcos an overdose or oversight can easily kill or damage the whole pond of fishes TongueTongue.

David


larz1
Veteran


Sep 29, 2009, 9:45 PM

Post #15 of 67 (15165 views)
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Re: [DavidSoon] Salt Replenishment: How much do we add? [In reply to] Can't Post

So very true David. I avoid using medications of any kind by working hard to prevent opportunities for infestations to occur in the first place (my favorite medicine is preventionWink). Those who find themselves in need of a pond wide treatment need to exercise extreme care on dosage which means knowing the true nature of the problem being treated and the true capacity of the pond to ensure proper dosage.


raistlin
User

Sep 30, 2009, 11:41 AM

Post #16 of 67 (15092 views)
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Re: [lamig747] Salt Replenishment: How much do we add? [In reply to] Can't Post

You can do a VERY ROUGH ESTIMATE as to how much salt would give you how much salination by this:

1 kg of salt added to 1000L of water approximately equals 0.1% Salinity.

I tend to underdose about 20% based on the rough calculation, then use a saltmeter to gradually bring it up to my desired level. There's just too much variation in source water parameters and the quality of salt to put down the perfect formula to calculate salinity. If you're mathematically challenged Laugh, try this online calculator: http://www.usakoi.com/calc5.php. It gives you gallons/pounds too.

As for salt disappearing, I think the others have answered the question. Smile

Cheers!


raistlin
User

Sep 30, 2009, 11:42 AM

Post #17 of 67 (15091 views)
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Re: [simoneinzaghi88] Salt Replenishment: How much do we add? [In reply to] Can't Post

The average prices I've seen around Singapore is about 85-105SGD.


(This post was edited by raistlin on Sep 30, 2009, 11:47 AM)


simoneinzaghi88
User


Sep 30, 2009, 3:39 PM

Post #18 of 67 (15059 views)
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Re: [raistlin] Salt Replenishment: How much do we add? [In reply to] Can't Post

Dear Raistlin,

Thanks, I just bought one for RM220 (Trans Instrument)

Anyone knows a place that I can get it for a lower price please PM me?
Thanks and regards

Simon


stevie
User

Oct 7, 2009, 10:56 AM

Post #19 of 67 (14925 views)
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Re: [simoneinzaghi88] Salt Replenishment: How much do we add? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Simon,

You can get a cheap meter. the one that float verticallyfrom marine aquarium shop. cheap cheap only few RM. See pics

Regards
Stevie



(This post was edited by thiamhwa on Oct 7, 2009, 11:19 AM)


KoiAnswers
Koi Kichi

Oct 7, 2009, 11:02 AM

Post #20 of 67 (14917 views)
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Re: [stevie] Salt Replenishment: How much do we add? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Hi Simon,

You can get a cheap meter. the one that float verticallyfrom marine aquarium shop. cheap cheap only few RM.

Regards
Stevie


Hi Stevie,
Those are not digital salt meters, and not that acurate as compared to the digital salt meters. Where a 0.1% makes a difference to a 0.2%, I would recommend a digital salt meter if you can afford it la!.....

Regards,


stevie
User

Oct 7, 2009, 3:10 PM

Post #21 of 67 (14882 views)
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Re: [msms] Salt Replenishment: How much do we add? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, digital ah! Just like digital watch vs anolog watch every second count. It depends lo how serious we are on every bit of things. Salt to me is not important for koi pond. Use it only when we have problem or just to maintain or avoid problem and the amount is not so crucial to the survival of the koi. Unless you use it often and very serious about it that is every change of water, every time you flush. Still you got to wait for the added salts to dissolve before you measure. As marine aquarium hobby before digital we use this anolog meter. I would think it is crucial for marine aquarium than koi pond. It is not whether one can afford, most of us, if not all, can pay RM200 but why pay RM200 when you can opt to pay RM10? It is therefore whether it is necessary. For 100meter race we need a stop watch with 100 of a second accuracy. For marathon runner is another story.

Not forgeting Koi is fresh water fish. Are we ethical as provider to provide a suffering salty living environment for our lovely koi that bring joy to us? I am a beliver of rights, animal rights included. when the koi is sick we force them to take medicine but not when they are healthy and need no more. But I am not a biologist or a koi expert and am not sure if salt is good for koi. Still with little knowledge, I choose not to add salt.

I can see that you want a good living environment for your koi like all of us, when you have time can you find out more if salt and how much is necessary and do let me know. Thanks

cheers
Stevie


KoiAnswers
Koi Kichi

Oct 7, 2009, 4:19 PM

Post #22 of 67 (14874 views)
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Re: [stevie] Salt Replenishment: How much do we add? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Stevie,
I understand your concern and where you are coming from. First of all, are you aware that the salt level in kois are 0.1% level. If salt is 0 level in your pond, then water will flow from the pond into the kois through their skin. This situation will make a sick koi to work harder to get rid of the excess water in their body, if not the koi will be blotted. This is also the reason why we hobbyist use this magic number of 0.1% salt level for our pond water, apart from salt being able to kill certain parasites and bacteria at this level.

Another example is that when your kois have ulcers and you need to use medication that contain Fomaldehyde, any salt content higher than 0.05% will ultimately kill the sick koi. I do not believe that you know this. Fomaldehyde and salt do not mix.

Different salt level kill different parasites and bacteria, hence without the digital salt meter, how would we know what salt level. For example, certain strain of Thricodina needs at least 0.6% salt before they are killed. There are many more examples. Of course prolong salt levels like these are not recommended.

In Japan, some of the breeders used 0.3% salt all the time in the concrete pond as to keep the bad bacteria at bay.

When the situation is OK with my pond and my kois, I too will have 0 salt level in my pond water at times. But history and experienced has shown that having different salt levels with our pond water will keep the pathogen guessing and will not be able to adapt or aclimatize.

So for the serious koi hobbyists, the answer is a yes for a salt meter, it is necessary.

Without a salt meter, we could make errors and as a result, there are more salt in the water then intended. Without a salt meter, we could end up having more salt then expected which will be harmful to the kois. By putting in salt at a correct level, we are not making their habitat and environment similar to the marine set up.

I am animal lover too (e.g. I have 14 stray cats at home that I am providing shelter too!). On the subject matter of ECTHICS which is a debatable subject. A question here is that what make you think that adding controlled levels of salt make it a suffering environment for the kois? With more knowledge and more experience, you will know what salt can do to your kois.

To tell you how serious I am in this hobby, I have all test kits for what ever that I need to perform tests on the water i.e. to ensure the highest water quality for my koi, I have a microscope i.e. to do a mucous swap so that I can determine what bacteria or parasite infection, and I also have a variety of antibiotics injectibles stored in my fridge as a backup just in case I need to inject my precious kois in the event that they are really sick i.e. just like us human.

Let me end this by saying that I am very serious about my koi keeping hobby, I provide the best that I can for my kois in terms of water quality, food and medication. Sometimes I feel guilty that I probably take care of my kois more then my own children. So if you want to throw the ECTHICAL thing here......probably I am not that ecthical here! that I am bias towards my kois then my own children.

Cheers and GOD bless you,


PH8
Veteran


Oct 7, 2009, 4:36 PM

Post #23 of 67 (14869 views)
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Re: [msms] Salt Replenishment: How much do we add? [In reply to] Can't Post

Bro Shukri, truly koikichi!!SlySlySly And maybe katkichi too!!CoolCoolCool


stevie
User

Oct 8, 2009, 5:03 AM

Post #24 of 67 (14821 views)
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Re: [msms] Salt Replenishment: How much do we add? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Shukri,

Good point and info. I didnt know that this hobby is getting into so details.

When the source of our pond water is from tap it can not be 0 level. 0 is pure water, are you refering to that? All fish will die in minutes exploded.

What I am saying is koi is a fresh water living thing, we human think we are smart and play god and put them into salt water and squeeze them. My point is are we so sure as to have salt. The Jap uses salt, they are right in their own way but not for us as hobbyists. We cannot just copy what they do, thier interest is vast different from us. I think their objective is to avoid diseases (commercial) and not the right living environment for the koi, for example. More example, chicken are jap on the neck throughout even though they are not sick. Do you want to take a bite at the neck? They are the experts you know! Veg are constantly spray with pesticide, you like to do the same in your garden if you grow one?

cheers
Stevie


stevie
User

Oct 8, 2009, 6:02 AM

Post #25 of 67 (14809 views)
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Re: [msms] Salt Replenishment: How much do we add? [In reply to] Can't Post

By the way Shukri, My daugter always says his father dont live in the house. He lives out side the house, in the house compound. hahahahah. We are the same, almost except I dont have many test kits, I like nature, let it be natural.

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