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Very high nitrite

 




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st8800
User


Feb 22, 2010, 4:18 PM

Post #1 of 37 (12236 views)
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Very high nitrite Can't Post

My pond has been in commission for 6 weeks now. Initially I had been having problems with my koi flashing due to couple rounds of introducting new koi. I pp bombed the pond whenever they flashed too much.... on the 2nd week and 4th week... ranging from 2-3 times per stretch. Last week the flashing finally stopped so I started to feed them again.... probably on the high side too (2 feeds 4 times per day).

On Saturday, I thought the bacteria had already build up in the filter and it was time to clean it. I started by draining dry the 1st brush chamber and sprayed it clean. 2nd and 3rd chamber I also clean by spraying water on the jap mats but didn't remove them from chambers. I proceeded to clean the oysters and coral chips but left the 4th chamber jap mats untouched. After that, I added koi guard (anti clorine) and refilled the pond. I then decided to check on the water parameters and found ammonia to be 0 and nitrate around 0.15-0.25g. The real shocker was that nitrite was sky high on my tetra test kit.... around region of 0.5mg!

Immediately I change another 15% of the water.... having changed around 20% while earlier washing the filter. After that, I went to mainland and bought Intrepet Biozyme F-100 (liquid anti algae which also double as bacteria culture and nitrite reducer) and the powder form bacterial culture. I added to the pond and after a couple of hours tested nitrite again.... still same. It was almost inconceivable that my nitrate can remain so high after changing 35% water unless my test kit was faulty but I tested on tab water and nitrite was 0. I then stopped 1 of the pump to slow the water flow so that bacteria can culture faster in the filter.

On Sunday, I added another round of both forms of Intrepet bacteria culture and tested water again.... still same. The test kit looked just as red. This morning, I emptied the rest of both bottles into the filter. When I came back home in the evening and tested.... results again same. I had no choice but change another 15% water again. Haven't tested the water yet.... will do so tomorrow morning.

I'm suspecting the relentless pp bombing really took out a good number of good bacteria in my filter and now I'm paying for it. Pirate

Appreciate any suggestions from brothers and sifus here.


PS: Now 1 of my GO sanke is swimming near top and looks weak.... doesnt seem to be able to stop itself from the water flow from hi-blow and sometimes looks like being pushed by the current. I worried the nitrite will start to give pop eye to the rest of the koi too. Unsure

Best
Spencer


PH8
Veteran


Feb 22, 2010, 5:02 PM

Post #2 of 37 (12229 views)
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Re: [st8800] Very high nitrite [In reply to] Can't Post

Brudder, did you confuse nitrite and nitrate or not? Nitrate at 0.25ppm is nothing at all. Just maintain salting at 0.10-0.15% to buffer the spikes in nitrite.



st8800
User


Feb 22, 2010, 5:20 PM

Post #3 of 37 (12222 views)
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Re: [PH8] Very high nitrite [In reply to] Can't Post

No bro... nitrate is ok at 0.15-0.25 I know... it is the nitrite (NO2) I'm worried about. Sorry for my earlier mistake, it should be 1.6mg or even 3.3mg judging from the tetra test kit... not 0.5mg as stated earlier.

Best
Spencer

(This post was edited by st8800 on Feb 22, 2010, 5:26 PM)


st8800
User


Feb 22, 2010, 5:22 PM

Post #4 of 37 (12218 views)
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Re: [PH8] Very high nitrite [In reply to] Can't Post

BTW, my salt level has been above 0.2 since the commission of the pond.

Best
Spencer


Carpa Diem
Koi Kichi

Feb 22, 2010, 5:28 PM

Post #5 of 37 (12208 views)
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Re: [st8800] Very high nitrite [In reply to] Can't Post

Bro,

It is best not to clean out the filter chambers with tap water for the time being to allow beneficial bacteria to take hold. If you need to wash waste from the brush chambers, use pond water.

Also, stop feeding for a while, and do daily water changes until ammonia and nitrite drop to negligible levels. Then feed slowly in small and gradually increasing amounts.

Too much pp bombing and cleaning out of beneficial bacteria will stress the fish and make them susceptible to bacteria and fungal infections. Watch out for signs of red streaks, fin rot, ulcers or parking. You might need to treat the fish with antibiotics when these symptoms occur.

In our panic, we might over do things and overmedicate, so stay cool bro.

Hope you get things under control soonSmileSmileSmile,
Jeff


PH8
Veteran


Feb 22, 2010, 5:31 PM

Post #6 of 37 (12205 views)
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Re: [st8800] Very high nitrite [In reply to] Can't Post

Bro, if your salt level is 0.2% and above, don't you worry about nitrite spikes, well buffered by the salt. Make sure you feed all your koi kao kao, then only can the good bacteria have enough shit (food!!SlySlySly) to thrive on and develop. Once the ammonia and nitrite levels fall below 0.1ppm, you can forget about salting.


PH8
Veteran


Feb 22, 2010, 5:32 PM

Post #7 of 37 (12201 views)
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Re: [PH8] Very high nitrite [In reply to] Can't Post

Oops, slightly polar opposite opinions. Anyway, your choice.SlySlySly What Bro Jeff proposed was exactly what I did in 2007.


(This post was edited by PH8 on Feb 22, 2010, 5:33 PM)


st8800
User


Feb 22, 2010, 5:40 PM

Post #8 of 37 (12193 views)
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Re: [Carpa Diem] Very high nitrite [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Bro Jeff

Thanks for the advise. I'm currently slowing feeding to lower the nitrite spike. There was some redness on the shiroji of a couple of koi which was why I started to clean my filter on saturday. I guess I will carry on with the daily water change and hope the good bacteria starts to do their job soon.

Best
Spencer

(This post was edited by st8800 on Feb 22, 2010, 5:49 PM)


st8800
User


Feb 22, 2010, 5:47 PM

Post #9 of 37 (12188 views)
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Re: [PH8] Very high nitrite [In reply to] Can't Post

Hehe Bro Paul.... u are always the 1st to answer to my problems la. Smile

I know before posting there are 2 schools of thoughts... Bro Jeff and Bro Poh Beng on 1 side and Sifu David and u on the other.... just thought that the fact my pond is new and I done so much PP makes any difference at all. I started feeding on the heavy side since the flashing stopped. Fed for a week already..... thought that the bacteria should have kicked in by now but seems not to be the case. I guess then I should increase salt to 0.3 to buffer against the nitrite spike?

Best
Spencer

(This post was edited by st8800 on Feb 22, 2010, 6:00 PM)


Carpa Diem
Koi Kichi

Feb 22, 2010, 6:01 PM

Post #10 of 37 (12176 views)
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Re: [st8800] Very high nitrite [In reply to] Can't Post

Bro,

The salt will negate high nitrite and also act as disinfectant to keep some bacteria at bay.

On the different methods, it doesnt matter which if it works. The "old" method works fine for many of usSmileSmileSmile.

CheersSmileSmileSmile,
Jeff


cheangv
User

Feb 23, 2010, 2:48 AM

Post #11 of 37 (12137 views)
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Re: [Carpa Diem] Very high nitrite [In reply to] Can't Post

It will take more than 6 weeks for your pond and bacteria to really mature so be patient on that. Also, when you wash your chambers, don't use fresh water but use the water from the pond, otherwise, you will kill off more of the bacteria which will then take even longer for it to mature. Changing too much water at one go is also not advisable, better to change lesser but more frequent so the water parameter changes are not as drastic. Hope this helps.


koinutx
Koi Kichi


Feb 23, 2010, 3:12 AM

Post #12 of 37 (12129 views)
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Re: [st8800] Very high nitrite [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Hehe Bro Paul.... u are always the 1st to answer to my problems la. Smile

I know before posting there are 2 schools of thoughts... Bro Jeff and Bro Poh Beng on 1 side and Sifu David and u on the other.... just thought that the fact my pond is new and I done so much PP makes any difference at all. I started feeding on the heavy side since the flashing stopped. Fed for a week already..... thought that the bacteria should have kicked in by now but seems not to be the case. I guess then I should increase salt to 0.3 to buffer against the nitrite spike?



Bro Spencer,

I think the feed "gao gao" method, is more for the case when there is seed bacteria, ....otherwise, with much pollutant in the pond without any bacteria to kick-start....the water can turn quite terrible...Sly
----------------------------------------------------------
http://koifish.blog.com



KoiAnswers
Koi Kichi

Feb 23, 2010, 8:49 AM

Post #13 of 37 (12079 views)
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Re: [st8800] Very high nitrite [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi there Spencer,
What had happened to you had happened to me a few months ago. I am also an advocate of PP bombing, but when wrongly used can cause havoc to your pond ecology. About 3 months ago, I PPied my pond and at the same time decided to 100% wash my filter chambers with tap water. Lay and behold, after a few feedings, I tested the Nitrite and the Sera test kit indicated a dark Yellow to red coloration........indicating that the Nitrite level was not good. The bombing and the washing of the filter chambers with tap water have killed a lot of the good bacteria.....and the bad news was that the NITROBACTER bacteria was knocked out quite badly thus causing the Nitrite spike........so what I did was ((I didnt actually panick as I knew what went wrong). The Nitrosomonas were converting Ammonia into Nitrite at a faster rate that the Nitrobacter were converting the Nitrite to Nitrate).....I backwashed the filter chambers, get rid of all fish faeces and fish debris, then put in lots of the Nictrobacter bacteria into the filter chambers (so as to jump start the colony), took 5 days vacation to Bandung. So I starved the kois for 5 days. Since there was no feeding thus no koi faeces thus no Ammonia. No Ammonia to be converted to Nitrite. And Yes, I salted the pond at 0.3% salt.

When I got back, tested the Nitrite level and the reading was a BIG fat ZERO.

If it happens again to you, please do not panick.


(This post was edited by Shukri Saad on Feb 23, 2010, 8:53 AM)


PH8
Veteran


Feb 23, 2010, 10:27 AM

Post #14 of 37 (12050 views)
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Re: [Shukri Saad] Very high nitrite [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the 3 things crucial in start up situations (including situations where matured ponds had their filter bacteria severely knocked down) are -

1. Salting to 0.10-0.15% to buffer against nitrite spikes

2. A good bacterial starter covering both nitrosomonas and nitrobacter bacteria. Aquazyn 1000 which I used apparently has about 50 different strains of beneficial bacteria in it.

3. Feeding the bacteria with fish pooh, therefore need to feed the fish well. Any bacterial starter added would be of little use if they had no food to thrive on. They would just die off.

Just my 2c.SmileSmile

Where washing the filter is concerned, if the filter media is taken out of the filter for a couple of hours, most of the bacteria would have died off anyway, so washing with tap water is fine IMHO. It also helps to kill off bad bacteria. Perhaps only 10-20% of the beneficial bacteria will survive, but this balance will remultiply super fast, as long as they have food (fish pooh) to thrive on.

Now that's 4c already!SlySlySly


(This post was edited by PH8 on Feb 23, 2010, 10:28 AM)


KoiAnswers
Koi Kichi

Feb 23, 2010, 11:05 AM

Post #15 of 37 (12038 views)
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Re: [PH8] Very high nitrite [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, I use Aquazyn 1000 too! Good stuff.

True about what Paul has said, but the experience that I have shared, worked in my case.......Wink


(This post was edited by Shukri Saad on Feb 23, 2010, 11:05 AM)


PH8
Veteran


Feb 23, 2010, 11:14 AM

Post #16 of 37 (12031 views)
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Re: [Shukri Saad] Very high nitrite [In reply to] Can't Post

Bro, can get Aquazyn in KL ah? Where?


DavidSoon
Veteran


Feb 23, 2010, 12:34 PM

Post #17 of 37 (12015 views)
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Re: [PH8] Very high nitrite [In reply to] Can't Post

Brother Paul SmileSmile

Brother Sin Siong is now distributing Aquazyn 1000 in Malaysia . Not only FD food and refresh Powder ..SlySly
Now they will deliver it to your doorstep in KL ...Sly

David


PH8
Veteran


Feb 23, 2010, 2:26 PM

Post #18 of 37 (11995 views)
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Re: [DavidSoon] Very high nitrite [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh ok. Thanks.SmileSmile


st8800
User


Feb 23, 2010, 5:37 PM

Post #19 of 37 (11960 views)
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Re: [PH8] Very high nitrite [In reply to] Can't Post

Really grateful to all the brothers here for sharing your ideas on how to tackle my problem. A big thank u to all of u.

Alas... my sanke has to the castle in the sky when I arrived home this evening Frown. Truthfully, she looked a goner last night.

Justed tested my water again. Test results shows NO2 to be around the region of 0.8 - 1.6mg or my eyes could be playing tricks on me. Very hard to differentiate the various red tones from test kit.

Bro Jeff: Already increased salt to 0.27 last night to be on the safe side.

Bro Paul: 50 strains of beneficial bacteria... wow.... but when I called Max's place today. I was told they no longer carry Aquazyn. Tthey now have their own inhouse branded bacteria culture which is supposedly better than Aquazyn. Since I have already emptied 2 bottles of Biozyme into the filter (I think around 9 enzymes and 12 strains for 1 bottle and 15 strains for the other bottle). I will wait out til saturday and if no improvement, I will head down to Max and try out their new bacteria culture. Unless anyone knows where I can find Aquazyn in S'pore.

Bro Cheangv: Washing filter with pond water would probably not be practical for me. I needed the water jets to flash out all the muck. I will probably stick to 5-10% water change per day.

Bro Poh Beng: Hopefully the bacteria culture from Intrepet will kick start soon. I have already commence feeding. Will monitor water closely. Much appreciate your concern these few days.

Bro Shukri: PP was really effective against flashing koi that seemed infected with parasites. I think my problem was that my filter was still in its infancy and the bacteria did not survive the series of bombing. My initial test for nitrite showed really red... no where near the orange color. I almost panicked.... drove straight to buy the bacteria culture. Crossing my fingers they will kick in soon.


PS: All the koi are still looking pretty healthy with exception of the sanke of coures.

Best
Spencer

(This post was edited by st8800 on Feb 23, 2010, 5:50 PM)


Carpa Diem
Koi Kichi

Feb 24, 2010, 10:57 AM

Post #20 of 37 (11904 views)
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Re: [st8800] Very high nitrite [In reply to] Can't Post

Bro Spencer,

My deepest sympathies on the loss of your prized sanke.

Were there any infections on the koi? What do you think is the cause of death?

Best Regards,
Jeff


Carpa Diem
Koi Kichi

Feb 24, 2010, 11:27 AM

Post #21 of 37 (11897 views)
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Re: [DavidSoon] Very high nitrite [In reply to] Can't Post

BroSmileSmileSmile,

I know you are a great supporter of Aquazyn.

JR posted the explanation below on Koi Bito. What do you think?

"...adding bottled bacteria might be helpful if the system is dangerous to new fish residents. But the owner should know that this practice is extending the new pond syndrome period and 'holding off' the creation of a biofilm microbe community that will eventually run the pond and fit that pond's conditions like a hand in a well fitting glove". - JR

Another Koi Bito poster, Koi Cop has this to say:

"Save your money.

No one I know believes that bugs in bottles will speed up the process of establishing beneficial bacteria in your bio-filter.

Think about it: The bugs we want are highly aerobic and can't survive in tightly capped bottles kept on shelves."

Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us.

The East say bottled bacteria is good. The West say it's bad.

Hopefully, with your helpful explanation, there will be no more blur sotongs after thisWinkWinkWink.

CheersSmileSmileSmile,
Jeff


(This post was edited by Carpa Diem on Feb 24, 2010, 11:41 AM)


st8800
User


Feb 24, 2010, 3:22 PM

Post #22 of 37 (11849 views)
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Re: [Carpa Diem] Very high nitrite [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Bro Jeff

I think the sanke may have already been weak in the first place and perhaps the high nitrite affected it more than others. She also had a recent injury to her head which was probably from knocking against the blower from filter but I couldn't see any infection from the wound. She only started to look noticeably weaker 2 days ago. Rest of the koi are looking healthy and mobile since the cleaning of filter on saturday.

Anyways, I have good news.... nitrite has dropped a lot. It is now only orange color on the tetra test kit which means 0.3mg. Whether is it the bacterial work or because I have followed Bro PH8 advise to continue feeding is open for debate. BTW, I gave 2 feedings (10 mins apart) x 4 times per day on Tuesday and 2 feedings (10 mins apart) x 3 today. I will continue with 3 times per day until I reach <0.3mg which is the desired level of nitrite. One thing for sure, the good bacteria have already started to do their job. Smile

Best
Spencer


larz1
Veteran


Feb 24, 2010, 3:42 PM

Post #23 of 37 (11846 views)
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Re: [st8800] Very high nitrite [In reply to] Can't Post

Hopefully many good lessons have been learned from this. PP has its place, but it must be used with careful restraint. In a new pond the bacterial colony is thinly populated and easily damaged. Nothing more than low pressure rinsing with seasoned pond water should ever be used to clean the media as bacterial films at this stage are very superficial, easily killed by fresh water, and easily stripped from the media by pressure. PP bombing of a pond will destroy virtually all bacteria in the filter unless the filter chambers are bypassed during the bombing and set you back to day one. This setback is doubly harmful as the fish are already somewhat stressed by poor water already, more stress added by PP bombing the water which causes damage to their gill plates and slime coat, and now the water quality is even worse because the filter has died back.

The Koi are now living in a "perfect storm" environment and mortality rates can be much worse than you have suffered. Salting as mentioned will help to improve their ability to process oxygen in their blood stream, but the gill damage from the PP bomb will reduce their oxygen intake at the same time so they may still show signs of oxygen deprivation (listlessness, piping at the surface for air, etc...). No doubt that is what killed your Sanke.

You mentioned earlier that you slowed the water flow through the filter chambers. Turn it back up. You want to move the water through the filters as rapidly as possible to process the ammonia and nitrite as often as possible while your bacterial colonies re-build. Increase your oxygen levels if possible to improve saturation and aid in their ability to breath. This will also improve the rate at which your biofilter will repair itself.

The debate over bottled bacteria will continue and all of the products are not the same which only adds confusion to the discussion. Generally speaking they come in 2 forms. One is truly a bottle of nutrient enzymes that encourage the growth of bacteria already present courtesy of Nature. Another is cultures of heterotrophic species that do have a shelf life as opposed to the autotrophic species that dominate a healthy and well established filter.

In a new pond, heterotrophs will tend to take over and fill the primary role of biological activity. Over stimulating them can actually hinder the establishment of the dominant autotrophic species that we see in a well established pond. The normal function of heterotrophs is to act as a "clean up crew" that consumes waste byproducts of autotrophic species and dead bacteria. That role is important as they keep the bacterial matrix clean, but if they are in the dominant role they will also rob the autotrophs of needed nutrients and oxygen. That is what JR was referring to when he said bottled bacteria will delay the maturation of the pond.

My advice would be to maintain your salinity around .2-.3, continue daily water changes to dilute nitrite and ammonia, keep the pp away from your koi while they are under stress, improve your aeration in both the pond and the filters, and do not feed much if at all. Their slime coat and respiration alone will shed enough ammonia to keep your filter fed while it begins to slowly rebuild itself. It will take time and you cannot rush it. If you try to rush it you will do harm to the pond and the fish.


DavidSoon
Veteran


Feb 24, 2010, 5:22 PM

Post #24 of 37 (11826 views)
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Re: [Carpa Diem] Very high nitrite [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Bro Smile ,

Your recent increase in participation of many discussions had indeed kept this forum very much alive , with all the mysteries and intriquing sharing , certainly I hope the forumers here can enjoy all the readings and intriquing mysteries ... SlySly

Aquazyn bacteria culture , is the only brand that I had used all these while , though there are at least more than a hundred brands or dealers selling bacteria culture worldwide ..
Aquazyn 1000 , is labelled as ( Water Conditioner ) , as no health department , in any proper sense of mind , would allow Bacterias to be imported into anywhere or simply allow bacteria to be passed around ... SlySly

Honestly , I had not been adding any bacterias into my bigger pond the last one year or so , because this pond is so mature that the bacteria level is thriving happily all these while ..Sly
despite the fact that I water-change 10 pct daily and rinse or flush my filteration chambers quite regularly with water from my tap ... SlySly that is why most hobbyists would deemed me as unorthodox ... Sly

JR , Brother James P. Railey , is one of the most respectable champion Koi Keepers for many years , and his contribution on Koi-Keeping , together with his vast knowledge had help many of the forumers , not only in Koi-Bito , but everywhere that he appeared .. Sly ... BUt I can gaurantee you Bro , Koi-Bito is never a one sided forum all these while , and while JR shared many of his views , there would be some who would chose to differ from his views , and this is a known fact , and that was what that kept Koi-Bito interesting all these while ...Sly This is what Koi-Bito is all about . It has never been one sided ..Sly
JR will never need to regularly culture bacteria for his pond , because he has got some of the most matured ponds among the hobbyists across the Atlantic . JR has never advocate for any brands of any devices used in a koi pond , neither has he denied the existence of bacteria in bottle ...Sly . Though JR had been one of the best and knowledgable champion of Koi Keeping , he understood , that not all ponds are built the same and while one system might work for some , some just don't . Even with running the same system , and different mode of maintenence , it will still work out differently . Brother Larry knows JR best , and he had never deemed JR as one who advocates for anything except " Good Water " ..Sly That is the reason why many called him , the " Filter Man " ..Sly

As for Koi-Cop , it's only typical of some , who believed that dinosaurs were merely mythical creatures that once roam the earth , even with fossils dug up , it can be deemed as being placed there out of mischief ... Sly
and that's Koi-Cop 's view on what's in the bottle ..SlySly Just my views as well , ... maybe Koi-Cop had bought something that never works ?? or some sand powder that some mean dealers passed of as bacteria ??
I believe bacteria can hibernate , and microbiologists who embarked on studies of micro-organisms do know , and identify some strains of bacterias that's needed for pond water , that can hibernate , stored in dry form , or bottled , or canned whichever you deem fit , and wakening of such bacterias through aeration is as true as dinosaurs roaming the earth ...Sly .

We can't see the developement of bacteria culture , or bacteria at work , but through the water test taken and tested by the labs , results show increase activities or high total plate counts everytime bacteria culture takes place ... Lab test wouldn't lie for all we know , and many here , had benefitted or cultured bacterias in their ponds , to know that bacterias , whether in plastic container or bottled , do works ..Sly , unless for some unlucky guys who happened to buy sand and thought they were bacterias for water culture ...Sly .. or some who do not even know how to "wake those bottled bacteria " Sly

There has never been a dividence between what's in the East and the West , but different reasons , seasons , weather and some eco reasons , even water supplies , each has to find their best way to upkeep their kois .
While we use chillers for the hot tropical sun here , most across the Atlantic hope to be able to afford heat-exchangers for their ponds through winter . While most of our water suppliers provide soft water and we often have to find means to try to increase water hardness , most across the atlantic had been using water softener to reduce the water hardness ...Sly but whether East or West , we all shared a common interest ..
" The Love and Passion for Nishikigoi " ...Sly

Complete on your SOP bro , and you will be one up on JR , bcos JR has never had a complete SOP for his Koi-Bito friends before .. SlySly

I love all your writings , mysteries and intriquing facts Brother Jeff ... good job ... keep this forum alive ...SlySly

David

P.S - I have not seen any blur sotong here among the 12,000 forumers here so far , just some who were new to this hobby and trying to seek solutions to better water management and koi-keeping ..Sly


Carpa Diem
Koi Kichi

Feb 24, 2010, 5:53 PM

Post #25 of 37 (11817 views)
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Re: [DavidSoon] Very high nitrite [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks, BroSmileSmileSmile.

Blur sotong is me lah, one eye look East, the other eye look West, mata also become juling oredi.

Cheers,
Jeff

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