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bakki shower and soft water

TEWA
Koi Lover

May 14, 2004, 1:03 PM

Post #1 of 18 (5281 views)
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bakki shower and soft water	Can't Post

has anyone tried using the bakki shower coupled with soft water theory in Malaysia and have they had good growth rates. or has anyone tried using bakki shower alone and felt that they have been beneficial for their kois. thanks.

ccm
Koi Lover

May 14, 2004, 4:21 PM

Post #2 of 18 (5260 views)
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Re: [TEWA] bakki shower and soft water [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Tewa,

Something similar is brewing here; see thread below:-

Koi Appreciation:
The Dainichi Kohaku that grew 9cm in 1 month!
Thread started by: rogermoo

Chong

(This post was edited by ccm on May 14, 2004, 4:22 PM)

TanSL
Member

May 20, 2004, 7:45 PM

Post #3 of 18 (5150 views)
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Re: [TEWA] bakki shower and soft water [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Tewa,

Prepare to get a brain damage reading that Thread suggested by ccm. Wink

Welcome to the forum and have fun !

Cheers

TEWA
Koi Lover

May 20, 2004, 9:03 PM

Post #4 of 18 (5144 views)
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Re: [TanSL] bakki shower and soft water [In reply to]	Can't Post

Dear Tansl

Yes it was a hell of a debate and I have read very heated debates on other forums such as koi chat and koi bito as well. I am very interested seeing that I am a malaysian I am impress that some roger's dainichi koi grew 9cm in 1 month. I have always had the impression that tap water in malaysia was of very poor quality (never drink from the taps). Here in Aust our water is pretty good still not as soft as Japan but the quality of kois is far behind Japans as we arent able to import kois.

I myself have just started trying soft water on my kois (yesterday) and I am the sole dealer of momotaro products here in aussie, so I was interested in seeing what the response was like back in Malaysia. Another new dealer is Max from Max koi farm in Singapore it would be worth for you guys to visit him and see his set up.

TanSL
Member

May 22, 2004, 11:07 PM

Post #5 of 18 (5090 views)
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Re: [TEWA] bakki shower and soft water [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi TEWA,

Yup, I read those debates too. Finally it got here too.

Yeah water quality is bad in certain areas. The tap water at my home in Ampang has a GH reading of 40mg/L and KH reading of 20mg/L. What's it like in Perth and what are you using to soften the water ?

Cheers

TEWA
Koi Lover

May 23, 2004, 10:34 AM

Post #6 of 18 (5075 views)
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Re: [TanSL] bakki shower and soft water [In reply to]	Can't Post

tansl

wow really that water isn't too bad probably better than mine my TDS is about 190 ppm what's yours. i am using areverse osmosis filter that gives me between 800 and 1100 litres of water depending on temperature the pure water is 3ppm TDS than I mix it with the waste water (because it is free of chlorine but has high concentrate of gh and KH). By the time i mix it I usually get between 1000L and 1300L of water about 50ppm

Ah which part of ampang do you live in when I was in Malaysia I lived on Jalan Ampang Hilir and I went to sayfor international school but now ampang has become one of the most expensive places

TanSL
Member

May 24, 2004, 8:59 PM

Post #7 of 18 (5051 views)
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Re: [TEWA] bakki shower and soft water [In reply to]	Can't Post

No TDS meter lah, so dunno what's the measurement. RO machine is expensive and so is the amount of water wastage, unless you can do a recycle. So, can't afford these stuff. There's this gel stuff (can't remember the name) I bought to soften the water but have not tried using it yet.

I live in Ampang itself, but in the very poor neighbourhood.

rogermoo
Member

May 24, 2004, 9:15 PM

Post #8 of 18 (5048 views)
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Re: [TEWA] bakki shower and soft water [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Tewa,

What sort of water wastage are you getting for 800-1100 litres of RO water. If the water wastage is the normal 70%, than it rather high; can you RO your waste water again?

You mentioned you mix it with the waste water - are you referring to the pond water or the 70% part?

Nope, TanSL's bangalow is just next to the tallest building in the world. He could see the KLCC daily. He is just being modest abit, that's all, but he is of couse not as rich as Joy's friend.

When compared with Joy's friend - he is like a flea in a wagging dog's tail. LOL Pirate

(This post was edited by rogermoo on May 24, 2004, 9:16 PM)

TEWA
Koi Lover

May 25, 2004, 10:13 AM

Post #9 of 18 (5020 views)
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Re: [rogermoo] bakki shower and soft water [In reply to]	Can't Post

hey roger

I am getting about a 55% recovery rate ie 45% wasted. I use the waste water from the RO unit because it is already free of chlorine and heavy sediment which is taken out in the prefilter. It contains high amounts of KH and GH. about 7dh = 7 x 17.9mg of KH

At the moment I am mixing at a ratio of 2.25 waste to 7.75 good water which gives me a TDS of around 60ppm and 1.575dh of KH.

My pure water is at 3ppm TDS so the rest of it is GH which is about 1.5 an acceptable level. You can't have 0 GH not healthy for koi.

My kois sure love the water. My pond use to be about 350 ppm now about 70 ppm

My RO is made of 3 USA home use RO membranes the waste of one unit feeds the next and so on so I get 1 pipe that is the final waste water from the three membranesn and 3 pipes of good water from each individual membrane this is connected to a 4 way piece so that I end up with 1 return pipe for good water

This RO unit doesn't use any pumps just connects straight to pump.

rogermoo
Member

May 25, 2004, 3:34 PM

Post #10 of 18 (5006 views)
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Re: [TEWA] bakki shower and soft water [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Tewa,

Quote: I use the waste water from the RO unit because it is already free of chlorine and heavy sediment which is taken out in the prefilter. It contains high amounts of KH and GH. about 7dh = 7 x 17.9mg of KH

You mentioned that you use the waste water from the RO - do you mean the 45%. I thought those 45% did not get to past through the RO membrance and thus is drained.

Am I made to understand that you use 3 RO filters with pipe joining the outlet of the 1st to the 2nd and the outlet pipe of the 2nd joining to the 3rd?

TEWA
Koi Lover

May 25, 2004, 9:29 PM

Post #11 of 18 (4971 views)
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Re: [rogermoo] bakki shower and soft water [In reply to]	Can't Post

hey roger

yes it is the 45% left over and yes it doesn't go through the membrane but has gone through the pre filter. that is the case if you only have 1 membrane. if you can imagine the 1st membrane waste goes to the second membrane which is then filtered and the waste from the second membrane enters the third and is then filtered.

At each stage the waste water increases in concentration thus the last membrane does not give out as much pure water as the first one.

There are two outlets through each membrane one for the waste and one for the pure water only the waste water pipes are linked from 1 membrane to the other. To be exact I didn't make it I paid someone that is very knowledgable in this field to and this concept of using three house membranes was designed by him. usually this amount will require larger membranes. The unit is very small and very easy for me to attach to the outside taps but it is very heavy.

i am very impressed at your pond with 40 kois in 12 tonne pond. What is the quality of your pond water (TDS values, KH and GH?) how bout your tap water

rogermoo
Member

May 25, 2004, 10:44 PM

Post #12 of 18 (4968 views)
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Re: [TEWA] bakki shower and soft water [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Tewa,

Now I understand. You have a filter with 3 RO membrance filter where the 1st RO waste water is feeded into the 2nd RO membrance filter and the 2nd RO water water is feeded into the 3rd RO membrance filter.

The RO water from the 2nd & 3rd is connected to the 1st and only the last RO membrance filter have a waste water outlet. VERY INTERESTING & THANK YOU INDEED!

I will check around and see whether I could get a similar one made here. They do sell RO filter in Malaysia but with only 1 RO membrance filter. Looks like I have to ask them to fix another 2 more RO membrance filter to the 1st one.

Sorry Tewa, I have not got a TDS meter yet but I know where to get one. Not really that expensive. Thus I wouldn't know the reading of the TDS value or the KH & GH, but I understand that the bacteria house will make the water soft. I use potassium permanganate to control the TDS level.

Cheers

TEWA
Koi Lover

May 25, 2004, 11:07 PM

Post #13 of 18 (4961 views)
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Re: [rogermoo] bakki shower and soft water [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hey Roger

yes the bacteria house does soften water to a certain extent but not a great extent though the difference is very minute from what daisuke told me. Big effect is of course degassing of nitrates which lowers TDS.

so how does the potassium permanganate help maintain TDS?

Look for people who are knowledgeable big companies will usually not offer to produce units like these because they will tell you to buy this and that and just rip you off. Please remember that if you want to use your waste water don't have an ion exchange resin before the RO membrane as it takes out all the KH and GH.

be wary of the capacity they quote as this is temperature, water pressure and water quality dependent. If you get 500ml per minute you are looking at around 700L a day. Membranes from the US are the best, one of the best is APPLIED membranes. Many will give youkorean or taiwanese membranes. Make sure they use teflon flow restrictors and stainless steel valves that prevent any back wash to the membranes as the RO membranes will get damaged. never use tap water to rinse RO membrane as the iron and chlorine will damage the membrane. Ask how much does it cost to replace the prefilters as this is part of the maintenance you should not have to replace the RO membranes.

TDS is a really good way to tell how your pond is doing. With an RO unit you will never have to use water conditioner again (anyway water conditioners only bind up the chlorine and chloramine, they are not removed) you will see a big difference in water clarity between the RO filtered water and tap water.

TanSL
Member

May 26, 2004, 10:18 PM

Post #14 of 18 (4906 views)
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Re: [TEWA] bakki shower and soft water [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi TEWA,

Why measure TDS and not ORP ? What's the difference between the two ?
Roger posted this quiz question to me and I scratch my head.

Cheers

Aussie Koi
Koi Lover

May 27, 2004, 8:41 PM

Post #15 of 18 (4834 views)
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Re: [TanSL] bakki shower and soft water [In reply to]	Can't Post

ORP is a much better thing to test for Tan. ORP is the oxygen reduction potential or the water health. With ORp you look for a range of number not a specific number ie you want your ORP to be over 300 -350 for a great pond and over 350 for an exceptional pond.
Higher ORP your pond maintains the better it is at dealing with polutants and the better it converts toxins like ammonia etc.
TDS is just total disolved solids - really not that important. If you use salt in your pond TDS is a waste of time to test for.
PP with increase ORP but should decrease TDS. Not nice stuff though and it should only be used to treat costia and not maintain artificially high ORP levels in pond.
GH is much more important then TDS IMHO.
Hope this helps
Regards
Aussie Koi

Aussie Koi

http://www.aussiekoi.com
I am a water keeper.
I look after the water and the Koi look after them selves!!!

TEWA
Koi Lover

May 28, 2004, 8:47 AM

Post #16 of 18 (4816 views)
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Re: [Aussie Koi] bakki shower and soft water [In reply to]	Can't Post

Dear TAnSL

I do not know what ORP readings actually tell you oxygen reduction potential, how it is measured I am not sure. thus I cannot comment. TDS is measured in microsiemens then converted by a conversion factor of 0.5 or 0.7 depends on whether you use a hydroponic meter

yes adding salt can throw it out of whack because of the electrolyte increase and yes GH is important in Japan they recommend GH values of 1 to 1.5 dH = 17.9 to 27mg/L

I personally think TDS is much better as it encompasses GH, KH and organic waste anything that is in the water. Measuring GH alone will not tell you what else is in the water. Eg if you have 3dH of GH in your pond do you know what else is in there.

My pond is running on 65ppm TDS that is about 3.5 dH of anything whether GH or KH or pollutants. I know that it has 1.5dH of KH and thats all I care about since if you do the maths at most there is only 2 dH of GH. TDS is a good guide for how well your pond is doing. Down at mmomotaro daisuke told me they always go by TDS and so do most other breeders in Japan. Hope this helps

TanSL
Member

May 31, 2004, 6:53 PM

Post #17 of 18 (4745 views)
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Re: [Aussie Koi] bakki shower and soft water [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks guys

Mark Shearar
New User

Jan 24, 2007, 4:13 AM

Post #18 of 18 (2479 views)
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Re: bakki shower and soft water [In reply to]	Can't Post

So a GH of 60mg/L and KH of 40mg/L is not bad based on my understanding of the above posts? I thought one needed a high KH in order to buffer the PH correctly, ie the higher the KH the less likely the chance of a major PH drop.

(This post was edited by Mark Shearar on Jan 24, 2007, 4:14 AM)

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