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blackish pond

 






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brandon
Koi Lover

Oct 1, 2006, 11:45 PM

Post #1 of 33 (3381 views)
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blackish pond Can't Post

hi all,

i'm getting confused of my pond conditionAngelic.The water has been blackish for 3 days.the pond is about 2 weeks old.Does it mean the filter hasn't matured yet?so that the bacteria cant clear it up?btw, my pond is exposed to sunlight for about 3 hours daily..any idea to solve it?

i have placed UV lamps 2 x 15 watt.I think it should have remained clear because of UV light.
Now i'm attaching my pond pic.

Best regards,

brandon


andymadd
Koi Lover


Oct 3, 2006, 12:23 AM

Post #2 of 33 (3341 views)
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Re: [brandon] blackish pond [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi


I am not sure about your description of "BLACKISH" water ? but if you take a glass full and hold it up to the light this is the best test for clarity. If your pond is only 2 weeks old the get ready for the green invasion it will soon strike this is commonly called new pond syndrome. Common colours for water are Green , Brown and cloudy.

Are you sure the colour of the water you describe is not the liner you are seeing through clear water ? from looking at your picture it looks good to me.

Can you see the bottom ? try shading your face with your hands and get real close to the water surface as reflections do stop you seeing deep down.

Andy


brandon
Koi Lover

Oct 3, 2006, 7:28 AM

Post #3 of 33 (3330 views)
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Re: [andymadd] blackish pond [In reply to] Can't Post

hi,andy

My pond has passed the pond syndrome.The common colours u mentioned have already been got by my pond.
Currently I still can't see the pond bottom
Best regards,

brandon


andymadd
Koi Lover


Oct 3, 2006, 4:28 PM

Post #4 of 33 (3312 views)
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Re: [brandon] blackish pond [In reply to] Can't Post

OK

So is it suspended particals in the water or more like stained water ?

Andy


larz1
Koi Kichi


Oct 4, 2006, 10:00 PM

Post #5 of 33 (3280 views)
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Re: [brandon] blackish pond [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
hi,andy

My pond has passed the pond syndrome.The common colours u mentioned have already been got by my pond.
Currently I still can't see the pond bottom


Unless you seeded the filter with mature media, at two weeks it hasn't passed much of anything. Describe your filtration and post your water tests. Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, Ph, and any other tests you have available.
Like Andymadd said, it sounds like suspended solids (turbidity). How often do you clean your filters and what do you clean them with?
You mentioned that you have 2 UVs running. It could be that the water is loaded with dead microalgae. UV's don't clean the water. They only kill the microalgae which then has to be physically removed by your filters.


(This post was edited by larz1 on Oct 4, 2006, 10:04 PM)


brandon
Koi Lover

Oct 4, 2006, 10:24 PM

Post #6 of 33 (3277 views)
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Re: [larz1] blackish pond [In reply to] Can't Post

hi larz1,

I havent checked the water parameter lately.3 days ago i checked the water parameter.The nitrite and nitrate reading were both 0(zero).I supposed it is due to the immature filter.just to let u know,my pond is 2 weeks old.

My filtration sections consist of 6 chambers.chamber 1 was filled with japanese filter mat,chamber 2-5 were filled 75,000 bioballs piled with zeolite and last chamber is only for UV light.

Am i supposed to turn off the UV?or just keep it running?now i have made partial water change ,about 10% and stops feeding until the water gets better
Best regards,

brandon


larz1
Koi Kichi


Oct 5, 2006, 8:56 PM

Post #7 of 33 (3256 views)
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Re: [brandon] blackish pond [In reply to] Can't Post

A few questions and suggestions.
Questions first.
What is your Ammonia reading (probably low) your Water temperature, Ph, Kh, Gh? These play a role in figuring out how well your filter will be able to perform and how quickly it will colonize. Do you have settlement ahead of the Jmat and how often to you dump it and clean the Jmat?
Suggestions.
Remove the zeolite from all but the LAST chamber. Zeolite absorbs ammonia, and with it in all chambers you are literally starving the biomedia of it's first food source. Denitrifiers can't colonize if they have no nutrients. By having it only in the last chamber you will allow the others to begin digesting ammonia and the zeolite will only absorb what the others miss while the filter begins to mature. Otherwise you will have to wait until the zeolite is saturated before the media can begin to colonize and mature.


brandon
Koi Lover

Oct 10, 2006, 6:14 AM

Post #8 of 33 (3186 views)
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Re: [larz1] blackish pond [In reply to] Can't Post

hi larz1,

thanks 4 ur suggestion.i'll consider to make a chanhe of my filtration.But i'm gettiong more confused bcoz bioballs are typically floating in in the water.if i dont have something heavy to pile on the bioballs,they will float then go to the next chamber following the water current.I'm affraid they will be stuck in the drain pipe of each chamber.Do u have any idea?
Best regards,

brandon


larz1
Koi Kichi


Oct 10, 2006, 9:01 AM

Post #9 of 33 (3175 views)
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Re: [brandon] blackish pond [In reply to] Can't Post

Many ponders place their bioballs in mesh bags to keep them in place if the chambers don't have built in barriers. Water still flows through them well and if they need to be cleaned (only in pond water) it is very easy to pick up the bag. Using a bag of Oyster shell or Coral to weight them down also works if you still need the weight, and it is beneficial to your filtration too.


Koi38
Senior Member


Oct 13, 2006, 9:38 PM

Post #10 of 33 (2980 views)
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Re: [brandon] blackish pond [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Brandon,

Unless I missed it............ but is your pond gravity feed?Crazy

rgds,
Jon

"DuKu Friendly"
_____________________________________
"No one is ever too old to know better"

http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/Koi38/


brandon
Koi Lover

Oct 14, 2006, 6:20 PM

Post #11 of 33 (2948 views)
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Re: [Koi38] blackish pond [In reply to] Can't Post

hi jon,

u're absolutely right.it's gravity feed
Best regards,

brandon


(This post was edited by brandon on Oct 14, 2006, 6:33 PM)


Koi38
Senior Member


Oct 14, 2006, 6:46 PM

Post #12 of 33 (2945 views)
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Re: [brandon] blackish pond [In reply to] Can't Post

Brandon,

You have jmatts in your settlement??? What type of waste gets collected there apart from koi poopTongueSmile Also have you done Andy's advice using a clear glass to check what's in the water? It could be a suspended dead algaeAngelic

rgds,
Jon

"DuKu Friendly"
_____________________________________
"No one is ever too old to know better"

http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/Koi38/


brandon
Koi Lover

Oct 14, 2006, 9:57 PM

Post #13 of 33 (2938 views)
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Re: [Koi38] blackish pond [In reply to] Can't Post

hi jon,
u're right.ur guesses are always rightSmile .have u got a magic or some thing like that ?ha..ha.haWink.I placed Jap-mat in the settlement chamber.why??is that a problem ?if so,any suggestion?in fact, my pond is quite new.I think the algae hasn't grown yet....
Best regards,

brandon


larz1
Koi Kichi


Oct 14, 2006, 10:31 PM

Post #14 of 33 (2937 views)
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Re: [brandon] blackish pond [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, Jon has Koi Pond ESPWink. It comes in pretty handy tooCool
If your water turned green you have grown algae. The UV lights are doing an effective job of killing it off, which is why the water isn't still green. That is why we wondered if the cloudiness in your water might be dead algae particles that your filters haven't taken out yet. The algae you have grown is the typical microalgae that floats in water and turns it green while it is alive, cloudy when it dies. The algae you haven't grown yet is carpet algae, which will grow on the liner in an even layer.
Can you post a picture/diagram of your filter setup? That way we know how your water travels from the pond to settlement to biomedia. Does the water go in the middle of the settlement and flow up through the Jmat into the next chamber (up/down filtration)?


brandon
Koi Lover

Oct 14, 2006, 11:42 PM

Post #15 of 33 (2932 views)
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Re: [larz1] blackish pond [In reply to] Can't Post

hi larz 1 n jon,
I'm attaching my filter diagram.I hope u can figure out where the problem is.Larz..I think u're right it's more like cloudiness.will it disappear itself? or i have to do something ..any suggestion?


Best regards,

brandon


larz1
Koi Kichi


Oct 15, 2006, 6:13 AM

Post #16 of 33 (2922 views)
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Re: [brandon] blackish pond [In reply to] Can't Post

From the looks of your diagram you should have a pretty effective filter. 3 important questions for you abou the filter.
1 Does the pump feed the 1st chamber, or is it gravity fed with the pump at the filter outlet.
2 Are all of the drains tied together with only one valve on the end? If they are tied together like that it is possible that some solids are going from the settlement all the way to the last chamber and out through the UV chamber, bypassing the rest of the filter.
3 Is there aeration in the settlement and the biochambers?


brandon
Koi Lover

Oct 15, 2006, 8:49 AM

Post #17 of 33 (2919 views)
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Re: [larz1] blackish pond [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi larz, 1 Does the pump feed the 1st chamber, or is it gravity fed with the pump at the filter outlet. NO.The pump doesn't feed the 1st chamber directly.Firstly, the water is pumped down in the small chamber before entering the 1st big chamber.Then it will flow upwards to the 1st big chamber.
2 Are all of the drains tied together with only one valve on the end? If they are tied together like that it is possible that some solids are going from the settlement all the way to the last chamber and out through the UV chamber, bypassing the rest of the filter
Each chamber has got a valve and also there is 6 pieces of pipe which was installed separately in the bottom of the filter.So the water doesnt bypass the biofilter .
3 Is there aeration in the settlement and the biochambers
Yes, there is aeration from the 1st chamber to 5th chamber.I dont have settlement chamber.I just put jap filter mat in a format like this(What do u call this format?)


here I'm attaching the filter diagram to clarify the unclear part.

What should I do?Do i have to empty the 1st chamber in order to make it a sediment chamber? I'm getting puzzled.FrownAngelic
Best regards,

brandon


(This post was edited by brandon on Oct 15, 2006, 9:03 AM)


Koi38
Senior Member


Oct 15, 2006, 3:38 PM

Post #18 of 33 (2904 views)
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Re: [brandon] blackish pond [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Brandon,

We need more details to fix your issue. Pls answer the following and no true or falseMadTongue
1) How big is the pond?(L x W x D) also gallonage or liters
2) Do you have bottom drain?
3) Pump(s) size L/hr?
4) How many fish?
5) How is the pond now?
6) What else do you use as biomedia apart from bioballs?


That jmatts format is what I called the "dttk"Tongue I copied his layoutCool

rgds,
Jon

"DuKu Friendly"
_____________________________________
"No one is ever too old to know better"

http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/Koi38/


brandon
Koi Lover

Oct 15, 2006, 5:09 PM

Post #19 of 33 (2901 views)
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Re: [Koi38] blackish pond [In reply to] Can't Post

hi jon,

1) How big is the pond?(L x W x D) also gallonage or liters

Pond dimension is 5.5metres x 2.6m x 1.8m.The total volume is about 25,000 litres

2) Do you have bottom drain?
Yes

3) Pump(s) size L/hr?
14,400 L/hr

4) How many fish?

27 fish .they ranges from 10 cm to 52 cm

5) How is the pond now?
The water remains brown in colour but i still can see the fish in the maximum depth of 1 metres.The pond base hasnt been visible.today's water readings are nitrite 5 ppm and nitrate 50 ppm.I'm concerned about the nitrite.

6) What else do you use as biomedia apart from bioballs
Japanese filter mat.


Since i have installed a PS , everyday i get about 1.5 litres of foam.it is so smelly.Is brown water caused by the DOC? or what?

i have several doubts.please help me.is it caused the UV which kills the microalgae ?(in relation to what Larz has said,"dead microalgae is brown in colour and the alive one is green").Should i turn it off?in addition, i switched it on since my pond was first filled.

Jon ,can I demand ur experience?did u switch ur UV on since ur pond was first filled or after the biomedia was mature already?

thanks a lot ,bro
Best regards,

brandon


(This post was edited by brandon on Oct 15, 2006, 5:39 PM)


larz1
Koi Kichi


Oct 15, 2006, 9:59 PM

Post #20 of 33 (2887 views)
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Re: [brandon] blackish pond [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll be interested to see what Jon has to say, but it is starting to make more sense to me now.
#1 It would be preferable if your pump was better matched to your pond. You are able to turn over your 25,000L pond volume about 1 time every 2 hrs. 1 time per hr is considered optimal for this type of filter.
#2 You may want to consider moving the aeration from the 1st chamber (Jmat) to the 2nd chamber (bioballs) That will allow the 1st chamber to act more like a settlement. Because it is aerated the solids are stirred up and won't settle out to the drain as well. You may also want to move the aeration in the last chamber to the 3rd. It will help improve the oxygen content for more of your media.
#3 Since you are getting foam and brownish coloring to your water you may want to take a look at Jon's DIY protien fractionator for your pond. Dead algae combined with other decaying wastes will form DOC's in your water. In Jon's thread on the DIY Protien Fractionator you will see a picture of the protien scum removed in a bucket. It is tea colored, much like what you are experiencing in your water.
#4 Your nitrate readings are bad and good at the same time.
Good news first, it means your filter is converting ammonia to nitrite, which is part of the maturing process. Under normal circumstances you could add salt (.1-.3ppm) to your pond to relieve any stress to your fish while the filter continues to mature. Bad news next. Because you have Zeolite in your filter you cannot add salt. Salt regenerates zeolite by releasing all of the ammonia back into the water. High ammonia and high nitrite at the same time would be harmful to your fish and overload your filter, causing a large ammonia and nitrite spike at the same time.
You need to get rid of the zeolite (it is saturated now anyway) and replace it with crushed oyster shell or coral as mentioned before. Don't throw it away. Regenerate it in salt water, rinse it with fresh water, and save it for a possible future emergency.
Until you can do that daily 10-25% water changes will help keep the nitrite spike under control until the filter can catch up a bit more. I would also stop feeding until things are looking better. That will take some of the bioload off of your system while it matures.


Koi38
Senior Member


Oct 16, 2006, 8:50 AM

Post #21 of 33 (2874 views)
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Re: [brandon] blackish pond [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Brandon,

I knew something was wrong(well not that bad wrongTongue) that's why I had to ask those questions to fix your issues from the source. Now we have more information about your pond we can hopefully fix it rightWink Like Larry said your pump is undersize for your pond of 25tons. Minimun turn over rate should be once every hour, yours is not even half. Once you've included the pipe run, bends, head height, etc you probably pumping 12ton to 13ton the most. I have a 10ton pond and I'm pumping 18tons/hr. Got the pointTongue
2) Do you have bottom drain?
Yes
What size is your BD???
5) How is the pond now?
The water remains brown in colour but i still can see the fish in the maximum depth of 1 metres.The pond base hasnt been visible.today's water readings are nitrite 5 ppm and nitrate 50 ppm.I'm concerned about the nitrite.

Your ammonia will remain zero since you have lots of zeolite in your filter(by looking on your pics) You shouldn't be adding zeolite in a new pond coz your bio media will take longer to mature. You need ammonia to start the bio cycle.
Ammonia => NitrIte => NitrAte. This could be the reason why your nitrite and nitrate are high. You have to remove the zeolite, do 20% water change and stop feeding for a few days. Then check your water parameters again. Larry's recommendation of adding salt to reduce nitrite was good and bad like he saidLaugh Coz if you have ammonia spike you can't use zeolite so water change and stop feeding for now.
6) What else do you use as biomedia apart from bioballs
Japanese filter mat.
#What sizes are your chambers, square, rectangle, round???
#From the pic you have jmatts in your 1st chamber and a small partition where water comes from pond. Where is exactly the entry point of the water, from the top or middle???
#Can you remove the partition where the jmatts are or modify your chambers???
I have no experience with bioballs so I can't comment on them. I have jmatts(like the pic....of mineTongue) K1 and Bioflo9.

Since i have installed a PS , everyday i get about 1.5 litres of foam.it is so smelly.Is brown water caused by the DOC? or what?
That's DOC. Its a bit sticky too. I got 12L of DOC on the very first day I add my PS.

is it caused the UV which kills the microalgae ?(in relation to what Larz has said,"dead microalgae is brown in colour and the alive one is green").Should i turn it off?in addition, i switched it on since my pond was first filled.
What UV does is it clamps down the microalgae so our filter can filter it out for flashing/cleaning. I'll leave it ON now.
Jon ,can I demand ur experience?did u switch ur UV on since ur pond was first filled or after the biomedia was mature already?
I've waited for my water to turn green or sufferd from "new pond syndrome" but maintain water parameters check. I did have ammonia spike way above the scale due to imatured filters. Then after six to 8 weeks I switched on the UV coz my wife and kids were complaining they can't see the fishMadSly

Bottom line is you need a bigger pump preferably 30,000L/hr or another one like what you have now. Add lots of O2 in your bio and remove air in your 1st settlement if you have any.

As you can see Larry and I have same comments(well almost) we're koi brothersLaughLaughLaugh

rgds,
Jon




"DuKu Friendly"
_____________________________________
"No one is ever too old to know better"

http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/Koi38/


brandon
Koi Lover

Oct 16, 2006, 9:38 AM

Post #22 of 33 (2869 views)
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Re: [Koi38] blackish pond [In reply to] Can't Post

1.What size is your BD???
6 pieces of 2" pipes

2.What sizes are your chambers, square, rectangle, round??
78 cm x 64 cm x 2 metres.its shape is rectangle

3.From the pic you have jmatts in your 1st chamber and a small partition where water comes from pond. Where is exactly the entry point of the water, from the top or middle???

yes ,u r right.The water comes to the top of the small partition then flow downwards.

4. Can you remove the partition where the jmatts are or modify your chambers???
I think it's imppossible to remove the partition because it was cemmented to the filter wall.Even if i was forced to do so , I would be worried about the fish because there would be no filtration.

thanks 4 ur help,guys....

I'll make a change in my filtration immediately.
Best regards,

brandon


Koi38
Senior Member


Oct 16, 2006, 2:49 PM

Post #23 of 33 (2847 views)
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Re: [brandon] blackish pond [In reply to] Can't Post

Brandon,

So if you have 6 x 2" pipes as BD's, where these BD's leads to.......... a settlement???

How does your water circulates? Is it from BD => jmatts => bioballs => pump back to pond???

Sorry to ask too many questions, I'm just a little confuseCrazy

rgds,
Jon

"DuKu Friendly"
_____________________________________
"No one is ever too old to know better"

http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/Koi38/


brandon
Koi Lover

Oct 17, 2006, 1:19 PM

Post #24 of 33 (2813 views)
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Re: [Koi38] blackish pond [In reply to] Can't Post

HI jon,

all right,we'll go through a picture.Perhaps u never know a filtration system like this.I'm using an above-ground filter.This is to ease the cleaning progress.Here we go.


As u see the pic,the water pump is right inside a chamber entitled "PUMP HOUSE".All the pipes of the BD go to it.Then the water's drawn up to filter.So, the water enters the top point of the small partition.Do u get it ,jon?
Today the water becomes a bit clearer (still a bit cloudy) But it's okay.There's an improvement in the water quality since i shifted the Filter mat to the 2nd chamber.I put a piece of filter mat (without aeration at all) in the 1st chamber so as to prevent the solid waste from entering the 2nd chamber(bio filter).all of this is because i dont have a vortex chamber.FrownWrong design...

Jon,can u give me a diagram of in-ground filter that has a vortex chamber and how to set up the BD ?Because I'm thinking of my upcoming pond.I'm concerned about the backwash of the vortex system.If we didnt have something to block the water while we were "backwashing " the vortex chamber,all the water in the pond would be drained.

Thanks a lot..
Best regards,

brandon


(This post was edited by brandon on Oct 17, 2006, 1:37 PM)


Koi38
Senior Member


Oct 17, 2006, 6:02 PM

Post #25 of 33 (2806 views)
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Re: [brandon] blackish pond [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Brandon,

I've been wondering what is that thing on the corner, so its the pump houseCool

Now more questionsTongue
* How deep is it, size of this pump house???
* Where is the pump located, suspended or on the floor???
* Is there a drain in there???
* How does those BD pipes stick out in there?

Lets deal with current issues first before we tackle another, shall weTongueSmile

rgds,
Jon

"DuKu Friendly"
_____________________________________
"No one is ever too old to know better"

http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/Koi38/

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