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calcium carbonate

 




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fhkhew
Novice

Dec 1, 2009, 6:08 PM

Post #1 of 34 (12005 views)
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calcium carbonate Can't Post

Hi:
Have been adding a few tablespoons of calcium carbonate to my pond filtering chambers. Understand it can speed up good bio bateria and also act as a buffer to maintian PH level above 7.

Care to share whether calcium carbonate can be a substitute for calcium bentonite to improve water quality and imporves koi health, colouration, etc,

-fhkhew


Lauts
Koi Kichi

Dec 14, 2009, 4:54 AM

Post #2 of 34 (11826 views)
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Re: [fhkhew] calcium carbonate [In reply to] Can't Post

fhkhew

They are different things , carbonates will harden the water , good if your water very soft , like mine at 3dkh. Wink Yes will act as pH buffer. Bentonite contains some carbonates also but more importantly has lots more other important minerals to maintain the health of you koi. PM me if you are interested to try out some calcium bentonite Wink.

rgd
ts



G Chee
Novice


Dec 19, 2009, 6:43 PM

Post #3 of 34 (11659 views)
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Hi

Is there is another name to Calcium Bentonite? A trade name perhaps.

Gerard


Lauts
Koi Kichi

Dec 21, 2009, 7:21 AM

Post #4 of 34 (11589 views)
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Re: [G Chee] calcium carbonate [In reply to] Can't Post

G Chee,

Many trade names , called Refresh (the best i think) most expensive too. Also Kusuri clay , Izeki clay and many others , do a google. Some claims to have enzymes etc , so not just bentonite clay. For its use/benefits you can refer to a post by the sifus in Koi product thread etc. Basically it is suppose to re mineralise our tap water. Can imagine the kois living in "dead water" without/ insufficient mineral ? A mud pond in your concrete pond if you must , something like that .

rgd
ts


fhkhew
Novice

Dec 21, 2009, 5:44 PM

Post #5 of 34 (11541 views)
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Re: [Lauts] calcium carbonate [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi ts:
Thanks for the clarification.

Where can I buy the calcuim bentonite (similar to that you recommended in another thread) in Singapore.

-fhkhew


Lauts
Koi Kichi

Dec 22, 2009, 3:01 AM

Post #6 of 34 (11519 views)
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Re: [fhkhew] calcium carbonate [In reply to] Can't Post

Any koi outlet like Max .

Seasons greeting and happy New Year to you.

rgd
ts


G Chee
Novice


Dec 25, 2009, 7:08 PM

Post #7 of 34 (11435 views)
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Re: [Lauts] calcium carbonate [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Bro TS

I find the hardness of my pond water dropping with each water change. I tested the hardness of the tap water which is 3 to 4 degrees. Initially, the hardness of my water was 6 to 7 degrees but after two months of weekly changes (10% each time), the hardness of my water is now 4dkH. What can I do to increase the hardness? It seems from the trail that adding calcium bentonite is the thing to do. I'll buy some refresh powder and add to my pond and see if it increased the hardness of the water.

Gerard


Lauts
Koi Kichi

Dec 26, 2009, 3:52 AM

Post #8 of 34 (11406 views)
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Hi Gerard,

No point fighting your water source. Soft water at 3-4 dKH is good for skin and beni of kois. Main concern of soft water would be pH drop and sumi development. For pH buffer use oyster , abt 1kg per tonne or coral , but more difficult to clean corals. For sumi you have koi clays like refresh. Do not depend on buffer ability of clays as content of buffers like carbonates are limited. If your pond suffers from rain , good idea to top up some soda bicarb during heavy rain for peace of mind. Count yourself lucky for having soft water , i think easier to deal with than hard water. Wink

Merry Xmas and happy Holidays

rgd
ts


G Chee
Novice


Dec 26, 2009, 3:34 PM

Post #9 of 34 (11355 views)
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Re: [Lauts] calcium carbonate [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi TS

Thanks for your insight. Do you live in Singapore? What is the hardness of your tap water and pond water? I feel uneasy leaving my water too soft because of drop in pH as you mentioned. My pond does not get much rain water. Sodium bicarbonate is a good buffering agent? The pH of my pond water is 8.3. It will probably go up more if I add Sodium Bicarbonate. I have oyster shells in my chambers. Don't know how much though. Do oyster shells have a shelf life? Do they need replacing after a while?

Thanks again

Gerard


Lauts
Koi Kichi

Jan 4, 2010, 5:48 AM

Post #10 of 34 (11233 views)
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Re: [G Chee] calcium carbonate [In reply to] Can't Post

Gerard,

I am in Msia, pond water hardness is 3dKH , pH 7.6 somewhat. Soda bicarb not a buffering agent in right sense of word like Oyster shell. Soda bicarb is used to neutralise the H+ ion in rain water that makes water asidic. You should use it when your pH drops to asidic, like after a heavy rainfall. Soda will maintain the pH at 8.3 (or 8.5? ) and will not change no matter how much you add , perfect to match your pond pHWink. If you experience a pH drop then time to pack up on Oysters , i find abt 1kg Oyster per tonne of water works for me , and i suffer from heavy rainfall. Wink. 10kg oyster will fill abt a 5kg bag of Hikari koi food. Wink Oyster will dissolve slowly in water so you need to replace them when they run thin.

rgd
ts


fhkhew
Novice

Jan 4, 2010, 5:52 PM

Post #11 of 34 (11180 views)
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Hi ts:

Thanks for your valuable information on water hardness, ph and using oyster shells as ph buffer.

Agreed that using sodium bi-carbonate (baking soda) is a temporary and/or quick solution to prevent ph crashing especially after light showers (usually more acidic than a heavy thunderstorm).

Just another question: Can we apply calcium carbonate powder as a subsititue for oyster shells to act as ph buffer (mixed powder with pond water in the filtering chambers say once a month or as and when doing 10% change of the pond water).

FYI, I managed to obtain similar 'refresh' clay called 'super powder' from a koi farm in Singaore. After 2 to 3 daily application (1 tablespoon for every ton of water) and subsequently once every week, the pond water is now crystal clear and long algae alongside the pond walls seemed to diminish over time. Kois are more lively now.

-fhkhew


Lauts
Koi Kichi

Jan 6, 2010, 11:44 AM

Post #12 of 34 (11112 views)
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Re: [fhkhew] calcium carbonate [In reply to] Can't Post

Fhkhew,

Technically you can replace calcium carbonate powder for oyster , they are the same chemical composition. But the pH changes via the oyster is very gradual which minimises stress on kois. Practically one would have to add ?? and frequency to achieve the same result as oysters? Buffer means to eliminates drastic changes , yes ?

Good to hear 'refresh' works for you. Did your kois flash during application? Where do you apply it , ie on filter chamber or main pond direct?

rgd
ts


nocturnal
User


Jan 6, 2010, 1:58 PM

Post #13 of 34 (11088 views)
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Re: [Lauts] calcium carbonate [In reply to] Can't Post

"Good to hear 'refresh' works for you. Did your kois flash during application? Where do you apply it , ie on filter chamber or main pond direct? "

Hi Abang TsSmile,

i also bought some from a farm in Sg after they ran out of the "original refresh". they did flash A LOT right after i put it the main pond, never when i use the original. wonder why? now takut to use.... UnsureUnsureUnsure

adik.

ps. the other "refresh" have some sandy texture at the bottom of the pail after i stir it well with water, didn't pour the "sand" in.



fhkhew
Novice

Jan 6, 2010, 6:33 PM

Post #14 of 34 (11060 views)
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Hi ts:
Noted. Already have few bags of small corals in the bottom layer of the second and third filtering chambers and they do not seem to maitain constant ph buffering, thus the need to add calcium carbonate after a light shower. May consider replacing the corals for oyster shells.

Regarding the so call 'refresh' I would usually dissolve the 'super powder' in a small pail using the pond water before pouring back to the last filtering chamber - not directly to the pond. So far noted my chagoi do flash in a very slow and gracious way - not a normal quick flash to raise any concern (in my opinion).

Understand from the koi farm, the 'super powder' has other minerals added that are also used for koi food pellets for colour enhancements. Anyway notice all the koi are active swimming on the surface of the poind, at times chasing each other.

Rgds
-fhkhew


Lauts
Koi Kichi

Jan 8, 2010, 4:05 AM

Post #15 of 34 (11008 views)
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Re: [nocternal] calcium carbonate [In reply to] Can't Post

Adik,

Different koi clays have different mineral composition. I suspect either the clay itself or some chemical reaction between pond water and the clay causes the kois to flash. I have the same problem some time back when i started using Izeki clay. The kois jump and flash , so i stopped. Started using Kusuri clay recently , no flashing but too pricy. Have managed to find a clay very similar in composition to Kusuri and it works for me now. I have ask a few to try and let me know whether their kois flash. One mentioned , his kois flash , to my surprise. Anyway i have added even up to 2kg to my 60 tonne pond with no bad effect every alternate week. i add direct to the pond at night after feeding and they loved it. They continue feeding and even mop up the clays from the pond floor and wall.

rgd
ts


kelvinbay
User

Jan 8, 2010, 6:00 AM

Post #16 of 34 (10994 views)
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Hi fhkhew,

may I know where u get the "super powder" from (pse PM me if it's not convenient to name the farm) ? Am interested cos the "prescription" of 1 teaspoon per ton seems much lower than that recommended for Refresh.

From the description of the "super powder", I suspect it could be Refresh powder with added PSB bacteria. I have tried them before and it does leaves some undissolved and coarse substrate behind. I am not sure if it cuase fishes to flash though.


Regards,
Kelvin


Lauts
Koi Kichi

Jan 8, 2010, 7:34 AM

Post #17 of 34 (10984 views)
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Re: [fhkhew] calcium carbonate [In reply to] Can't Post

fhkhew

You may need to top up on oysters or corals,corals more difficult to keep clean tho. 1kg per tonne water has been effective for me. Calcium Carbonate added will make your water harder. If not substantial amount is added then probably ok as fishes will consume them naturally as part os their body requirement. I think the consensus is soft water is better for kois skin and beni . Sodium bicarb is a better option for your mentioned purpose.

Not familiar with "super powder" , but any difference if added direct to pond and via last filter chamber? I am of the opinion it should be added to pond direct to maximise its benefit. You want the kois to eat it, swim in it etc like in a mud pond in Japan Wink. I understand that David Soon adds Refresh to filter chambers so that it does not shock the kois to much via the visibility lost . My kois have got use to it already so it works for me to add direct to main pond Cool. Also adding it at night help too maybe as night light not so good.

rgd
ts


fhkhew
Novice

Jan 8, 2010, 4:14 PM

Post #18 of 34 (10949 views)
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Hi ts:
Will add the 'super powder' solution direct to the pond next week. If okay, will continue to do so - will keep you posted.

By the way, do you know any koi farms in Spore selling the clay you are using now; am interested for economic reason.

-fhkhew


nocturnal
User


Jan 9, 2010, 6:21 PM

Post #19 of 34 (10906 views)
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Re: [Lauts] calcium carbonate [In reply to] Can't Post

"Not familiar with "super powder" , but any difference if added direct to pond and via last filter chamber? I am of the opinion it should be added to pond direct to maximise its benefit. You want the kois to eat it, swim in it etc like in a mud pond in Japan Wink. I understand that David Soon adds Refresh to filter chambers so that it does not shock the kois to much via the visibility lost . My kois have got use to it already so it works for me to add direct to main pond Cool. Also adding it at night help too maybe as night light not so good."

i actually followed a lot if not all of Abang David's way (up to my budget limitationBlush) to great effects. learn to use refresh from this forum, by the time the kois are accustom to refresh in main pond, read that Abang David poured his in the first chamber in order not to spook the kois by the "clouds waves". since my kois has also gotten used to it (they did act crazy when i startedLaugh), i didn't change the method. now they will swim thru the "clouds" whenever it's time to refreshSly.

adik.



Lauts
Koi Kichi

Jan 11, 2010, 4:32 AM

Post #20 of 34 (10788 views)
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fhkhew,

Am not familiar with kois farms in Spore. I attach the analysis of the clay i managed to get. Much more affordable and so far given me the result. If you are in Msia let me know , more than happy to provide you some to try out. Am sharing with some hobbyist as i got 40kg! due to min pack. It was added to fish food in a Tilapia farm.

rgd
ts






Lauts
Koi Kichi

Jan 11, 2010, 4:52 AM

Post #21 of 34 (10785 views)
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Adik,

I have not use Refresh before , does you kois flash when you used them first time? I got feedback from some members testing my clays that their kois also acting funny , like becomes motionless, one koi flashes , the first few times it was used. I did not have this problem with my pond. I do hope they continue using to gain as benefits come longer term not immediate. Although one mentioned that the yellowish pond water did clear up . Now i use so much that i can't see them anymore. Cool One thing i know is they continue feeding without interruptions as i like to add clays when feeding at night every alternate week. Cool

rgd
ts


nocturnal
User


Jan 11, 2010, 3:59 PM

Post #22 of 34 (10723 views)
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"I have not use Refresh before , does you kois flash when you used them first time?"

i think they didn't bang, i should remember if they didSmileSmile.

adik.

ps. happy if there's a cheaper substitute for refresh, it's healing ability for scars & bruises on kois is really wonderfulSlySlySly.



dheensay
User


Jan 12, 2010, 7:00 AM

Post #23 of 34 (10661 views)
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Brudder Lau,
No more single weekly dose for me. Now 3 times weekly <100gms each spike. Why i prefer it this way - cause i do it right after backflush. I top up new water and leave the waterfall on so both pumps running at the same time....faster turnover and therefore faster clarity <2 hours.

I am happy using this so far, but not in single dose - which lead to the koi being uneasy, flashing and doing acrobatics Wink. 3x smaller doses, no problems. Skin quality on the koi has improved. I will post some before and after pics of some of the koi when i find time to bowl. Last night bowled a showa which has grown from 38cm to 45cm in 3 months and it jumped out of the tank injuring some scales on top....Now i need to know what medication to put into the measuring tank to keep them calm.

KAAJ

www.dheensay.com for casual outdoor & banquet furniture!


Anuar
User

Jan 12, 2010, 2:43 PM

Post #24 of 34 (10632 views)
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Bro Kaaj,

I used to bomb refresh weekly (full dosage) after changing water but later found out from Bro David that Refresh has the clumping agent that clumps debris. He has suggested that it is best to flush after adding Refresh, so I am now adding Refresh every Thursday nite and flushing the first 2 chambers on Saturday. The kois are okay with full dosage, funny reaction only observed the first time I administered more than a year ago.

On the calming agent, you can try fish stabilizer which is available at KDF, make sure you ask them on the correct dosage, although I just agak-agak. Fish will be more calm which makes it much easier to measure and photograph. Add more and they will pengsan, the first time I saw this was used was 2 years ago when Patrick of KDF/Jap Carps helped me perform a minor surgery to remove a shimi on my kohaku.

Cheers.


Lauts
Koi Kichi

Jan 14, 2010, 3:47 AM

Post #25 of 34 (10549 views)
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Bro Kaaj,

Thank you for taking a risk to try out the clay. Even Refresh will have some odd reaction from the kois in the beginning, so suggest maybe you could increase on dosage and reduce application times later. Thank you in advance on the before after pict , also your Sakura grow out looks good on the skin and sumi. i only have the after picts , a shiro which was nothing (hence no earlier picts Wink) now sumi and shiro looks great , as well as few others. On keeping the kois calm for treatment , you can use Transmore by Nika. Easily found in aquariums.

Bro Annuar,

I think Refresh can do more than just clumping floating debris to clear water, most koiclays can do that. Refresh clay are added to koi food and used to build mudponds due to their mineral content. So probably you would want to leave them as long as possible with the kois to maximise the benefits? Create a "mudpond" condition in your pond , but without loss in clarity? Its a good idea to flush them out when they settle as it actually attract dirt and sink. But those clay particle that sticks to the pond wall are additional food with mineral for the kois.

rgd
ts

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