Koi Forum (Nishikigoi - Japanese Koi Fish): KOI Talk: Pond Water Quality: can I use sand swimingpool filter?

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can I use sand swimingpool filter?

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hatemzalloum
Novice

Apr 18, 2002, 9:08 PM

Post #1 of 30 (87093 views)
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can I use sand swimingpool filter?	Can't Post

Hi there, I am Hatem Zalloum, from jordan..I have a 20000 gallon pond that is 2.5 ft deep..it use to contain gold fish only untill 2 weeks ago when I brought back with me 25.. 6 inch kois from Kuala Lampur...I don't have any filtration !! .. the problem here is that I don't know of anyone in jordan that can help me out in this !! can I use sand swimming pool filter? or do I need a biological filter?bairing in mind that biological filters are not sold in jordan. Thank u in advance , Hatem Zalloum email hatemzalloum@hotmail.com

KevKoi
Koi Kichi

Apr 19, 2002, 3:09 AM

Post #2 of 30 (87014 views)
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Re: [hatemzalloum] can I use sand swimingpool filter? [In reply to]	Can't Post

WoW! No kidding, you flew fish half way around the globe! Wink

Sand filters, I'm afraid used by itself will clog. That's 'cos koi's poop a whole lot. I've heard of people in the UK use sand filters at their final stage of filtration to polish the water, but on its own, it won't be sufficient.

Well, many of us in Malaysia don't rely on bought filters. (prefabricated Vortex filters are too expensive here.) We make it out of concrete if we have a big pond. I suppose you can get a contractor to build it for you out of concrete if you understand the principles of the settlement and biological filtration.

Sounds like your pond does not have bottom drains, so you might have to pump feed your filters should you decide to build them. If you need help designing the filter, I'm sure many of the members here can help.

Mark
Veteran

Apr 19, 2002, 4:39 AM

Post #3 of 30 (87012 views)
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Re: [KevKoi] can I use sand swimingpool filter? [In reply to]	Can't Post

I agree with KevKoi remarks.

If may want to consider DIY one yourself. A couple of large trash bins could also do the job.

dttk
Veteran

Apr 19, 2002, 6:11 AM

Post #4 of 30 (87008 views)
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Re: [hatemzalloum] can I use sand swimingpool filter? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi hatem, welcome to the forum Smile

. I beg your pardon but is it really a 20,000gal pond? If so, then it's a luxury to the 25 small koi... Angelic

. Then Mark, I'm afraid a few trash bins won't do.... Crazy

. Are the goldfish still around and how many are there? If $$$ is no problem, then build a multichamber multistage submerged filter system as suggested by kevkoi. Working backwards from the limited info that is available, 20,000gal = 90,000L. Depth = 2.5ft. 90,000L = 90,000/28.3 = 3,180cuft. Surface area of pond = 3,180/2.5 = 1,272sqft = 35.7ft x 35.7ft. Your filter should be about 30% of 1,272sqft, which is 381.6sqft. Assuming it is 3ft wide, length of filter = 381.6/3 = 127.2ft. This is an astronomical figure... Shocked

. Ehhh....guys, any other suggestions? Unimpressed

Always friendly :)

newgen
User

Apr 19, 2002, 10:53 AM

Post #5 of 30 (87001 views)
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Re: [dttk] can I use sand swimingpool filter? [In reply to]	Can't Post

wow.......what a SHOCK!!! i don't even have a FG tank at home yet...but Hatem have a swimming pool for his kois~! what a heaven for kois! thats good! but...not filtration? how come? hmm...Hatem u sure need a very big giant pump and a filter system that works very well! if not you're pond gonna be like a waste pond! Frown

sad thing...

I think! Hatem should build more than 1 filter system! and i think it would works better than 1 pump as the flow is stronger? this is just my thought

Anyway, the filter saiz can be build like DR. Tan said....but i think it is better to build a filter with a size that DR. Tan said, BUT divided into 2 different filter systems, running together.

Hope this is possible to be a good idea!

John

dttk
Veteran

Apr 19, 2002, 11:06 AM

Post #6 of 30 (86999 views)
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Re: [newgen] can I use sand swimingpool filter? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi newgen, what a great idea... Angelic

.
Always friendly :)

KevKoi
Koi Kichi

Apr 19, 2002, 11:24 AM

Post #7 of 30 (86996 views)
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Re: [dttk] can I use sand swimingpool filter? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Holly COW!! I didn't do the math, but now that it's done, the figures are gastronomical!! Shocked

100plus feet long filter!! Makes my filters look tiny.

Gosh, you sure you got the 20 000gallon figure correct? That's going to be a whole lot of bioballs and/or Japanese matting..... Hmmmm, and come to think of it, if neither bioballs or Jap matting available there, U'd be the biggest buyer of hair curlers in Jordan!! WAY TO GO!! Sly

R u intending to redesign your whole pond and dig up the thing to fit in bottom drains so your filter can be gravity fed (most serious koi keepers recomend bottom drain, gravity fed filters), or just make do with your current HUMONGOUS pond and fit in a pump fed filter?

Smile

SMW1
Veteran

Apr 19, 2002, 2:24 PM

Post #8 of 30 (86992 views)
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Re: [KevKoi] can I use sand swimingpool filter? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi all,

I'm very dubious about the size of this pond. Only 2.5 feet deep but 20,000 gal. I'm not saying I don't believe you. I always believe until I'm corrected Sly

. However, Although very big as it may be, 2.5' dept is not ideal for kois to grow.

As as you have all mentioned the filter would have to be so big, which in turn means the pump or pumps would have to turn the pond volume over at least once every 2 hours.

I will feel very sorry for the koi with that amount of water returning to the pond. Picture this if you can. A young boy has a small sail boat, he wants to test it out on a gentle stream, but instead he has no other choice than to test it on the rapids of niagra falls.

I personally would section off the pond. i.e. build a foundation around a smaller section of the pond. When you have done this. I would work on increasing the depth of the remaining pond and installing bottom drains. If you do this, once it is complete, you will be the envy of every koi keeper on this forum.

Stuart

newgen
User

Apr 19, 2002, 6:31 PM

Post #9 of 30 (86981 views)
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Re: [dttk] can I use sand swimingpool filter? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Is it a really good idea DR. Tan? Angelic

(happy until can fly without wing!)

ahahaha

hope it is a really good idea...but i do believe that it will be double the price! I THINK ONLY~

Smile

GOOD LUCK ANYWAY!

KEEP ON THINGKING!

Arcen
User

Apr 19, 2002, 7:21 PM

Post #10 of 30 (86980 views)
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Re: [hatemzalloum] can I use sand swimingpool filter? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ummmmmmmmmmmhhhhh.That is a lot of water.....How about this.With that amount of water and only a few small Koi,you SHOULD be OK without filtration. Crazy

NOT something that I would strongly recommend!!! But Ok for time being.Just keep a regualar check on water parameters.How about putting a lot of water plants in.Irisi's,watercress and other aquatic plants.They will help to keep the Nitrates down.

As you don't seem to have bottom drains,you could break through the pond wall,and fit something like 8/10 inch filter feed pipe to a multibay system or two.You will need a pump capable of pumping 10,000 gallons an hour,or 2 X 5,000 gallons. Crazy

As the other guy's have said,the depth of water is somewhat shallow.

As your country gets a lot of sunshine,your Koi could get sunburn.Another good reason for putting in a lot of plants,gives them somewhere to shelter,and spawn when they are old enough.Hope to of been some help. COLIN.............. Smile

dttk
Veteran

Apr 20, 2002, 6:11 AM

Post #11 of 30 (86967 views)
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Re: [newgen] can I use sand swimingpool filter? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Hatem & others, I just thought of another idea. Why not incorporate the filter into the existing pond, say in the ratio of 75% pond: 25% filter. Therefore the surface area (SA) of the pond = 1,272x0.75 = 954sqft. and SA of filter = 1,272x0.25 = 318sqft. I think it's a good idea to have 2 independent sets of filtration system as suggested by newgen. A good filtration system is necessary to prevent green water. Separate filter systems will reduce the force of returning water as mentioned by Stuart. Having a veggie filter or TT would reduce the nitrate level. A deeper pond is beneficial in a country with lots of sun as mentioned by arcen. Therefore, shading is important and may be in the form of pergola or plants. Sly

Always friendly :)

hatemzalloum
Novice

Apr 20, 2002, 10:00 AM

Post #12 of 30 (86961 views)
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Re: [hatemzalloum] can I use sand swimingpool filter? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks everyone for ur prompt useful replys !!! I am impressed... I would like to reconfirm that the pond is 20 000 gallons, and it has a bottom drain...let me add some more information to all of you:-
1- the pond contains 60 gold fish in addition to the 25 kois
2- I do frequent water changes, more so during the summer season, 2 times a month as I use the water for irrigation!!
3-I JUST STARTED planting water lilies, and some marginal bogs,do u guys think that the lilies will survive the small 6 in kois?

Finally, I would very much appreciate it if someone can send me a design of the sutable bio filter that i can build with the proper dimentions, and pump capacities.

Thanking u all very much as you are of great help.

Hatem

Arcen
User

Apr 20, 2002, 2:58 PM

Post #13 of 30 (86956 views)
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Re: [hatemzalloum] can I use sand swimingpool filter? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Hatemzalloum, Your pond plants SHOULD be OK.I have seen some very big Koi in ponds with lots of Lillys and other plants,and they all survived. Smile

Yes Koi can be very destructive where plants are concerned.Try putting some smooth big pebbles/stone onto the plant pots to stop the Koi rooting around....Good-luck.

SMW1
Veteran

Apr 20, 2002, 5:39 PM

Post #14 of 30 (86950 views)
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Re: [Arcen] can I use sand swimingpool filter? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi All,

I agrre with Colin. Koi will not eat the lilly's how ever if you do not weigh them down with big pebbles they do have a habbit of digging them up out of the pots.

Any chance of seeing a picture of this huge pond. I would love to see what it looks like.

Thanks

Stuart

hatemzalloum
Novice

Apr 21, 2002, 11:53 AM

Post #15 of 30 (86940 views)
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Re: [SMW1] can I use sand swimingpool filter? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Once again, thanks to all of u. I will send a picture of the pond soon after I scan one...

Now I would appreciat it if someone can send me a design of a filter with proper dimentions bairing in mind that the 20000 gallon pond does have a bottom drain, I repeat it has a bottom drain . I prefer the filter to be outside the pond,because i do not want to do any changes in the old body of the pond.
THANKING ALL OF YOU IN ADVANCE AND WISHING YOU AND YOUR KOIS ALL THE BEST.

Hatem Zalloum

KevKoi
Koi Kichi

Apr 22, 2002, 5:16 PM

Post #16 of 30 (86916 views)
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Re: [hatemzalloum] can I use sand swimingpool filter? [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm going to post up a pump fed filter design for you on 'members pond' section ('cos that's the only way I know how to upload pictures Frown

). It was a quick sketch I did while I was free.

I have deliberately left out measurements for the forum to discuss. It's a very simple 3 stage filter which would require no work to be done on your exsisting pond. U have only 1 bottom drain which is insufficient for a pond this size, but since I suppose you drain your pond for irrigation from the bottom drain I assume you should get rid of quite a bit of the settlment and mulm at the bottom.

U might need to build 2 of these filters at either end of your pond.

Cheers. hope this helps....... Smile

Lynne USA
User

Apr 28, 2002, 1:16 AM

Post #17 of 30 (86887 views)
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Re: [KevKoi] can I use sand swimingpool filter? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi I'm new to the forum but I thought I'd add my comments. I have been using a swimming pool sand filter for over a year now. I also have 775 gallons of mech filter and just installed a TT. I think multible types of filteration are necessary with koi.

I haven't had any problems with the sand filter clogging yet and have not changed the sand. It is the first filter inline after my 1/4 hp pump and the others follow.

What I think is important for him to consider is the enery costs if he uses a 1 hp swimming pool pump, also that he needs to know that it should be left on continually.

Khoobg
Webmaster

Apr 28, 2002, 3:01 AM

Post #18 of 30 (86885 views)
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Re: [Lynne USA] can I use sand swimingpool filter? [In reply to]	Can't Post

As long as the sand filter is backwash everyday, it will not clog.

Sand filter, if wish to be used, should only be placed at the last section of the filtering system to polish to water. It will only behave mostly mechanically.

I have been running a sand filter many years ago but discontinued its used merely three months after the installation. It really cost a lot to run 3/4HP or 1HP centrifugal pump to serve those sand filter. The need to backwash them every day is also troublesome.

Lynne USA
User

Apr 28, 2002, 4:22 AM

Post #19 of 30 (86884 views)
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Re: [Khoobg] can I use sand swimingpool filter? [In reply to]	Can't Post

I do backwash every day and clean my bottom drains at the same time. I find it easier to back wash daily than cleaning the dirty filter pads and scrubbies. I will be changing my system design in a few months. Also I have a very heavy fish load on the filters.

I will begin the filter process with the sand filter and then to 4, 155 gallon TT's. I am so happy with the TT I just built and have noticed within 1 week of installation my pea water is clearing, water parameters are the best they have ever been.

I can understand why you gave up using your sand filter, the electricity used must have cost you a fortune. What kind of pump did you use? I have been using a Wm Lim pump 1/4 hp for over a year now, I think its 2.5 amps.

I just read about a new pump in the Koi USA magazines, buyers guide and it sounds great but is expensive. It is 0 to 3 hp and 0 to 6.8 amps, you call dial the horsepower you want. It doesn't have a price listed but it implies that its $1,000 dollars. I've never heard of them but their called Money Saver Pumps.

One thing for certain is that all of us will continue to search for the perfect filter. :)

SMW1
Veteran

Apr 28, 2002, 11:29 AM

Post #20 of 30 (86874 views)
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Re: [Lynne USA] can I use sand swimingpool filter? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Did I hear someone say Perfect Filter ?

Lynne USA
User

Apr 28, 2002, 3:07 PM

Post #21 of 30 (86870 views)
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Re: [SMW1] can I use sand swimingpool filter? [In reply to]	Can't Post

I been ponding for almost 40 years now, I started when I was real young, I am an older lady now. I've been searching for the perfect system for almost as long as I am old. Cool

I think that I will take this obsession with me to my grave.

I have found with every new filter addition that I'm getting closer to the perfect filter. LOL But I must first realize that I may have had it all along, but can't resist bringing home new koi now and then. I have way over 65 koi in 9000 gal, 24" and over, plus many small ones. Cool

newgen
User

Apr 28, 2002, 5:36 PM

Post #22 of 30 (86866 views)
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Re: [Lynne USA] can I use sand swimingpool filter? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Wow!!!!
Thats cool Lynne!
You really love Kois!

Anyway, Me ToO!!!!

Erm...i think all of use in the forum do, RIGHT??? Wink

John

hatemzalloum
Novice

May 8, 2002, 1:16 PM

Post #23 of 30 (86830 views)
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Re: [Lynne USA] can I use sand swimingpool filter? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi all, and let me welcome Lynne to the forum�. I have 2 questions for you Lynne �1- did I understand you correctly that you have been using sand swimming pool filter only! And things where fine?
2- Excuse my ignorance but what is a TT that you mentioned earlier?

Now this question is for all of you friends, why did u all assume that the width of the boi filter has to be 3 feet? Can�t you have for example a square filter? Thanking you all in advance and wishing you the best.

Lynne USA
User

May 8, 2002, 3:16 PM

Post #24 of 30 (86824 views)
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Re: [hatemzalloum] can I use sand swimingpool filter? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Hatem Zalloum,

Thank you for the welcome. I didn't explain myself too well I guess.

The first filter my water enters is a sand filter that holds 500# of sand. It goes from there to 5 stock tanks that are 155 gallons. I have 2 lines that come from the sand filter to the TT's.

The TT or also known as Trickle Tower filter is not a new concept from what I've read. I first became aware of it in articles buy Doc Conrad. They are sold already made but most people choose to make their own.

The best media that people have found is lava rock. Many people make them decorative but I was not able to because of the high winds where I live.

The lava in the TT is never submerged, but is always kept wet by a steady flow of water. I tried rotatating spray bars but without success, I then drilled holes in pvc pipe to get the correct flow. The biobugs in this system cycles faster than any conventional filter system. It neutralizes ammonia, nitrates and nitrites and starves out the algae, it can also slightly lower the ph.

3 weeks ago I could only see fish mouths when I fed because the algae was so thick, now I can see the bottom 5 feet down.

Your filter can be any shape you want them to be, but round filters have always worked best for me.

Another thing that most people learn, is that you can never have too much filteration. The more fish you add the more filters you need. If your a sensible person and keep your fish load down, you won't have water quality problems. The trouble is that koi keeping is addicting and you always will find another one to bring home.

Lynne

thtan
Novice

May 8, 2002, 5:15 PM

Post #25 of 30 (86819 views)
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Re: [Lynne USA] can I use sand swimingpool filter? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Lynne,
Agree. Koi keeping is addictive. Kevkoi ,my boy, is always bringing home another so called "test fish". To be in the forum however is equally addictive! Laugh

Thtan

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