Home: KOI Talk: Pond Water Quality:
can I use sand swimingpool filter?



hatemzalloum
Novice

Apr 18, 2002, 9:08 PM


Views: 87444
can I use sand swimingpool filter?

Hi there, I am Hatem Zalloum, from jordan..I have a 20000 gallon pond that is 2.5 ft deep..it use to contain gold fish only untill 2 weeks ago when I brought back with me 25.. 6 inch kois from Kuala Lampur...I don't have any filtration !! .. the problem here is that I don't know of anyone in jordan that can help me out in this !! can I use sand swimming pool filter? or do I need a biological filter?bairing in mind that biological filters are not sold in jordan. Thank u in advance , Hatem Zalloum email hatemzalloum@hotmail.com


KevKoi
Koi Kichi


Apr 19, 2002, 3:09 AM


Views: 87365
Re: [hatemzalloum] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

WoW! No kidding, you flew fish half way around the globe!Wink

Sand filters, I'm afraid used by itself will clog. That's 'cos koi's poop a whole lot. I've heard of people in the UK use sand filters at their final stage of filtration to polish the water, but on its own, it won't be sufficient.

Well, many of us in Malaysia don't rely on bought filters. (prefabricated Vortex filters are too expensive here.) We make it out of concrete if we have a big pond. I suppose you can get a contractor to build it for you out of concrete if you understand the principles of the settlement and biological filtration.

Sounds like your pond does not have bottom drains, so you might have to pump feed your filters should you decide to build them. If you need help designing the filter, I'm sure many of the members here can help.



Mark
Veteran

Apr 19, 2002, 4:39 AM


Views: 87363
Re: [KevKoi] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

I agree with KevKoi remarks.

If may want to consider DIY one yourself. A couple of large trash bins could also do the job.


dttk
Veteran

Apr 19, 2002, 6:11 AM


Views: 87359
Re: [hatemzalloum] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

Hi hatem, welcome to the forum Smile. I beg your pardon but is it really a 20,000gal pond? If so, then it's a luxury to the 25 small koi...Angelic. Then Mark, I'm afraid a few trash bins won't do....Crazy. Are the goldfish still around and how many are there? If $$$ is no problem, then build a multichamber multistage submerged filter system as suggested by kevkoi. Working backwards from the limited info that is available, 20,000gal = 90,000L. Depth = 2.5ft. 90,000L = 90,000/28.3 = 3,180cuft. Surface area of pond = 3,180/2.5 = 1,272sqft = 35.7ft x 35.7ft. Your filter should be about 30% of 1,272sqft, which is 381.6sqft. Assuming it is 3ft wide, length of filter = 381.6/3 = 127.2ft. This is an astronomical figure...Shocked. Ehhh....guys, any other suggestions? Unimpressed
Always friendly :)


newgen
User


Apr 19, 2002, 10:53 AM


Views: 87352
Re: [dttk] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

wow.......what a SHOCK!!! i don't even have a FG tank at home yet...but Hatem have a swimming pool for his kois~! what a heaven for kois! thats good! but...not filtration? how come? hmm...Hatem u sure need a very big giant pump and a filter system that works very well! if not you're pond gonna be like a waste pond! Frown sad thing...

I think! Hatem should build more than 1 filter system! and i think it would works better than 1 pump as the flow is stronger? this is just my thought

Anyway, the filter saiz can be build like DR. Tan said....but i think it is better to build a filter with a size that DR. Tan said, BUT divided into 2 different filter systems, running together.

Hope this is possible to be a good idea!



John


dttk
Veteran

Apr 19, 2002, 11:06 AM


Views: 87350
Re: [newgen] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

Hi newgen, what a great idea...Angelic.
Always friendly :)


KevKoi
Koi Kichi


Apr 19, 2002, 11:24 AM


Views: 87347
Re: [dttk] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

Holly COW!! I didn't do the math, but now that it's done, the figures are gastronomical!!Shocked 100plus feet long filter!! Makes my filters look tiny.

Gosh, you sure you got the 20 000gallon figure correct? That's going to be a whole lot of bioballs and/or Japanese matting..... Hmmmm, and come to think of it, if neither bioballs or Jap matting available there, U'd be the biggest buyer of hair curlers in Jordan!! WAY TO GO!! Sly

R u intending to redesign your whole pond and dig up the thing to fit in bottom drains so your filter can be gravity fed (most serious koi keepers recomend bottom drain, gravity fed filters), or just make do with your current HUMONGOUS pond and fit in a pump fed filter?

Smile


SMW1
Veteran

Apr 19, 2002, 2:24 PM


Views: 87343
Re: [KevKoi] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

Hi all,

I'm very dubious about the size of this pond. Only 2.5 feet deep but 20,000 gal. I'm not saying I don't believe you. I always believe until I'm corrected Sly. However, Although very big as it may be, 2.5' dept is not ideal for kois to grow.

As as you have all mentioned the filter would have to be so big, which in turn means the pump or pumps would have to turn the pond volume over at least once every 2 hours.

I will feel very sorry for the koi with that amount of water returning to the pond. Picture this if you can. A young boy has a small sail boat, he wants to test it out on a gentle stream, but instead he has no other choice than to test it on the rapids of niagra falls.

I personally would section off the pond. i.e. build a foundation around a smaller section of the pond. When you have done this. I would work on increasing the depth of the remaining pond and installing bottom drains. If you do this, once it is complete, you will be the envy of every koi keeper on this forum.

Stuart


newgen
User


Apr 19, 2002, 6:31 PM


Views: 87332
Re: [dttk] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

Is it a really good idea DR. Tan? Angelic(happy until can fly without wing!)

ahahaha

hope it is a really good idea...but i do believe that it will be double the price! I THINK ONLY~

SmileWinkTongueCoolBlush

GOOD LUCK ANYWAY!

KEEP ON THINGKING!


Arcen
User

Apr 19, 2002, 7:21 PM


Views: 87331
Re: [hatemzalloum] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

Ummmmmmmmmmmhhhhh.That is a lot of water.....How about this.With that amount of water and only a few small Koi,you SHOULD be OK without filtration.Crazy NOT something that I would strongly recommend!!! But Ok for time being.Just keep a regualar check on water parameters.How about putting a lot of water plants in.Irisi's,watercress and other aquatic plants.They will help to keep the Nitrates down.

As you don't seem to have bottom drains,you could break through the pond wall,and fit something like 8/10 inch filter feed pipe to a multibay system or two.You will need a pump capable of pumping 10,000 gallons an hour,or 2 X 5,000 gallons.Crazy

As the other guy's have said,the depth of water is somewhat shallow.

As your country gets a lot of sunshine,your Koi could get sunburn.Another good reason for putting in a lot of plants,gives them somewhere to shelter,and spawn when they are old enough.Hope to of been some help. COLIN..............SmileSmileSmile


dttk
Veteran

Apr 20, 2002, 6:11 AM


Views: 87318
Re: [newgen] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

Hi Hatem & others, I just thought of another idea. Why not incorporate the filter into the existing pond, say in the ratio of 75% pond: 25% filter. Therefore the surface area (SA) of the pond = 1,272x0.75 = 954sqft. and SA of filter = 1,272x0.25 = 318sqft. I think it's a good idea to have 2 independent sets of filtration system as suggested by newgen. A good filtration system is necessary to prevent green water. Separate filter systems will reduce the force of returning water as mentioned by Stuart. Having a veggie filter or TT would reduce the nitrate level. A deeper pond is beneficial in a country with lots of sun as mentioned by arcen. Therefore, shading is important and may be in the form of pergola or plants. Sly
Always friendly :)


hatemzalloum
Novice

Apr 20, 2002, 10:00 AM


Views: 87312
Re: [hatemzalloum] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

Thanks everyone for ur prompt useful replys !!! I am impressed... I would like to reconfirm that the pond is 20 000 gallons, and it has a bottom drain...let me add some more information to all of you:-
1- the pond contains 60 gold fish in addition to the 25 kois
2- I do frequent water changes, more so during the summer season, 2 times a month as I use the water for irrigation!!
3-I JUST STARTED planting water lilies, and some marginal bogs,do u guys think that the lilies will survive the small 6 in kois?

Finally, I would very much appreciate it if someone can send me a design of the sutable bio filter that i can build with the proper dimentions, and pump capacities.

Thanking u all very much as you are of great help.

Hatem


Arcen
User

Apr 20, 2002, 2:58 PM


Views: 87307
Re: [hatemzalloum] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

Hi Hatemzalloum, Your pond plants SHOULD be OK.I have seen some very big Koi in ponds with lots of Lillys and other plants,and they all survived.SmileSmileSmile Yes Koi can be very destructive where plants are concerned.Try putting some smooth big pebbles/stone onto the plant pots to stop the Koi rooting around....Good-luck.


SMW1
Veteran

Apr 20, 2002, 5:39 PM


Views: 87301
Re: [Arcen] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

Hi All,

I agrre with Colin. Koi will not eat the lilly's how ever if you do not weigh them down with big pebbles they do have a habbit of digging them up out of the pots.

Any chance of seeing a picture of this huge pond. I would love to see what it looks like.

Thanks

Stuart


hatemzalloum
Novice

Apr 21, 2002, 11:53 AM


Views: 87291
Re: [SMW1] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

Once again, thanks to all of u. I will send a picture of the pond soon after I scan one...

Now I would appreciat it if someone can send me a design of a filter with proper dimentions bairing in mind that the 20000 gallon pond does have a bottom drain, I repeat it has a bottom drain . I prefer the filter to be outside the pond,because i do not want to do any changes in the old body of the pond.
THANKING ALL OF YOU IN ADVANCE AND WISHING YOU AND YOUR KOIS ALL THE BEST.

Hatem Zalloum


KevKoi
Koi Kichi


Apr 22, 2002, 5:16 PM


Views: 87267
Re: [hatemzalloum] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

I'm going to post up a pump fed filter design for you on 'members pond' section ('cos that's the only way I know how to upload picturesFrown ). It was a quick sketch I did while I was free.

I have deliberately left out measurements for the forum to discuss. It's a very simple 3 stage filter which would require no work to be done on your exsisting pond. U have only 1 bottom drain which is insufficient for a pond this size, but since I suppose you drain your pond for irrigation from the bottom drain I assume you should get rid of quite a bit of the settlment and mulm at the bottom.

U might need to build 2 of these filters at either end of your pond.

Cheers. hope this helps....... SmileCool


Lynne USA
User

Apr 28, 2002, 1:16 AM


Views: 87238
Re: [KevKoi] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

Hi I'm new to the forum but I thought I'd add my comments. I have been using a swimming pool sand filter for over a year now. I also have 775 gallons of mech filter and just installed a TT. I think multible types of filteration are necessary with koi.

I haven't had any problems with the sand filter clogging yet and have not changed the sand. It is the first filter inline after my 1/4 hp pump and the others follow.

What I think is important for him to consider is the enery costs if he uses a 1 hp swimming pool pump, also that he needs to know that it should be left on continually.


Khoobg
Webmaster


Apr 28, 2002, 3:01 AM


Views: 87236
Re: [Lynne USA] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

As long as the sand filter is backwash everyday, it will not clog.

Sand filter, if wish to be used, should only be placed at the last section of the filtering system to polish to water. It will only behave mostly mechanically.

I have been running a sand filter many years ago but discontinued its used merely three months after the installation. It really cost a lot to run 3/4HP or 1HP centrifugal pump to serve those sand filter. The need to backwash them every day is also troublesome.


Lynne USA
User

Apr 28, 2002, 4:22 AM


Views: 87235
Re: [Khoobg] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

I do backwash every day and clean my bottom drains at the same time. I find it easier to back wash daily than cleaning the dirty filter pads and scrubbies. I will be changing my system design in a few months. Also I have a very heavy fish load on the filters.

I will begin the filter process with the sand filter and then to 4, 155 gallon TT's. I am so happy with the TT I just built and have noticed within 1 week of installation my pea water is clearing, water parameters are the best they have ever been.

I can understand why you gave up using your sand filter, the electricity used must have cost you a fortune. What kind of pump did you use? I have been using a Wm Lim pump 1/4 hp for over a year now, I think its 2.5 amps.

I just read about a new pump in the Koi USA magazines, buyers guide and it sounds great but is expensive. It is 0 to 3 hp and 0 to 6.8 amps, you call dial the horsepower you want. It doesn't have a price listed but it implies that its $1,000 dollars. I've never heard of them but their called Money Saver Pumps.

One thing for certain is that all of us will continue to search for the perfect filter. :)


SMW1
Veteran

Apr 28, 2002, 11:29 AM


Views: 87225
Re: [Lynne USA] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

Did I hear someone say Perfect Filter ?


Lynne USA
User

Apr 28, 2002, 3:07 PM


Views: 87221
Re: [SMW1] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

Cool I been ponding for almost 40 years now, I started when I was real young, I am an older lady now. I've been searching for the perfect system for almost as long as I am old.Cool I think that I will take this obsession with me to my grave.

I have found with every new filter addition that I'm getting closer to the perfect filter. LOL But I must first realize that I may have had it all along, but can't resist bringing home new koi now and then. I have way over 65 koi in 9000 gal, 24" and over, plus many small ones.Cool


newgen
User


Apr 28, 2002, 5:36 PM


Views: 87217
Re: [Lynne USA] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

Wow!!!!
Thats cool Lynne!
You really love Kois!

Anyway, Me ToO!!!!

Erm...i think all of use in the forum do, RIGHT???WinkCool



John


hatemzalloum
Novice

May 8, 2002, 1:16 PM


Views: 87181
Re: [Lynne USA] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

Hi all, and let me welcome Lynne to the forum…. I have 2 questions for you Lynne …1- did I understand you correctly that you have been using sand swimming pool filter only! And things where fine?
2- Excuse my ignorance but what is a TT that you mentioned earlier?

Now this question is for all of you friends, why did u all assume that the width of the boi filter has to be 3 feet? Can’t you have for example a square filter? Thanking you all in advance and wishing you the best.


Lynne USA
User

May 8, 2002, 3:16 PM


Views: 87175
Re: [hatemzalloum] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

Hi Hatem Zalloum,

Thank you for the welcome. I didn't explain myself too well I guess.

The first filter my water enters is a sand filter that holds 500# of sand. It goes from there to 5 stock tanks that are 155 gallons. I have 2 lines that come from the sand filter to the TT's.

The TT or also known as Trickle Tower filter is not a new concept from what I've read. I first became aware of it in articles buy Doc Conrad. They are sold already made but most people choose to make their own.

The best media that people have found is lava rock. Many people make them decorative but I was not able to because of the high winds where I live.

The lava in the TT is never submerged, but is always kept wet by a steady flow of water. I tried rotatating spray bars but without success, I then drilled holes in pvc pipe to get the correct flow. The biobugs in this system cycles faster than any conventional filter system. It neutralizes ammonia, nitrates and nitrites and starves out the algae, it can also slightly lower the ph.

3 weeks ago I could only see fish mouths when I fed because the algae was so thick, now I can see the bottom 5 feet down.

Your filter can be any shape you want them to be, but round filters have always worked best for me.

Another thing that most people learn, is that you can never have too much filteration. The more fish you add the more filters you need. If your a sensible person and keep your fish load down, you won't have water quality problems. The trouble is that koi keeping is addicting and you always will find another one to bring home.

Lynne


thtan
Novice

May 8, 2002, 5:15 PM


Views: 87170
Re: [Lynne USA] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

Lynne,
Agree. Koi keeping is addictive. Kevkoi ,my boy, is always bringing home another so called "test fish". To be in the forum however is equally addictive!Laugh

Thtan


KevKoi
Koi Kichi


May 8, 2002, 7:12 PM


Views: 29837
Re: [thtan] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

LaughLaughLaughLaughSly!!


SpudNuts
Novice

Dec 1, 2004, 6:00 AM


Views: 27761
Re: [thtan] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

Alot of people talk alot of trash about using a Sand Filter for a pond, I think the only reason this is done is because the ones doing to trash talk are the same people trying to sell those super expensive bio filters.

I'm in the process of converting my 2 3000 gal ponds over to a single sand filter, the process is very simple.

1. Use a low amp pool pump with a strainer basket, you can get a high efficiency pump that only pulls about 4-5 amps and does around 70-80 gals per minute that's about 4000-5000 gals per hour. If your pond is already installed you just need to run your plumbing on top of your liner.
2. Remove all sand from the filter, sand is too fine for ponds and causes them to channelize and clog dialy. Remove the radials (Plastic arms at the bottom). I plan on replacing sand with 2" by 2" nylon filter pieces (Same as used for your home AC but cut into smaller pieces) those will cover about 4 inches of the bottom, those are followed by about 2000 plastic bio balls. Don't pack them in, allow alittle room for them to float (not too much though, won't allow for the bacteria to grow if your balls are floating all over the place).
3. Run your plumbing, i'm placing two drains in each pond, they will all come together to the pump inlet. From the pump to the filter, out of the filter to two 25watt UV lights. Then they will go to a waterfall in each pond.
4. After it's installed, I will have to monitor water flow to ensure one pond isn't getting more water than the other. Ball valves are placed on each waterfall so the flow can be adjusted as needed.
5. Make sure you install a check valve on the inlet of the pump, you don't want the water to backflow into the ponds.

My ponds are on the Koi Cymru web site: http://www.koicymru.co.uk/visa.htm

We converted a swimming pool into ponds and it's been a learning experience ever since. If anyone on here has ideas or can tell me how I can tweak this design please let me know but i've researched sand filter conversion for some time now and i'm pretty sure this will work. What I like the most about a sand filter is you can "Backflush" it, easy maintenance.

If you live in an area that gets pretty cold for an extended period of time (below 50 deg F), install airators, that way you can completely shut down the filtration system in the winter and the bubbles will keep up oxygen levels and keep the pond from freezing. If it gets really cold, you might need to keep the pump going because the air won't be enough.

Thanks
John


mike c
Veteran


Dec 1, 2004, 9:26 AM


Views: 27746
Re: [SpudNuts] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

hi spudnuts,

aside from these 2 future ponds ... do u have ponds running with only a sand filter?
how long have they been running?

im also planning some future ponds and the multichamber filters are simply too space consuming.

thanks


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dynamictiger
Novice

Dec 1, 2004, 12:59 PM


Views: 27739
Re: [hatemzalloum] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

Have a look at this thread http://www.koi.com.my/...forum.cgi?post=49726 this is based on practical experience as well as theory.

With a pond of the size you have turnover rate to power cost will be your largest concern. The answer to this is to spend time searching for a low head high flow pump.

In Australia we have pumps that can turn nearly 20000 litres per hour with a rating of about 300 watts.

The second consideration you need to make is to keep the pipe diameters as large as possible. In simple terms if the inlet of the pump is 50mm fit an 80mm pipe and likewise on the discharge. Keep the suction line as large and low as possible (if you are using a suction line), and the return line as large and direct as possible. This way if you ever upgrade the pump you are not limited by pipe diameters.

Using the formulas laid out it is possible to correctly size a sand filter to acheive a cycle of about a week on a medium load pond.


SpudNuts
Novice

Dec 1, 2004, 11:29 PM


Views: 27720
Re: [aragorn] can I use sand swimingpool filter?

These are not future ponds, they are currently up and running but they are running on two 100gal stock tank home made multichamber filters.

I've been running these ponds this way for about 5 years but the maintenance on these filters are expensive and very time consuming. One chamber is using lava rock, cheap but they begin to channelize after about a year so I have to replace the 50lbs of lava rock each year in both filters.

I found the perfect pump, it only pulls 4.5 amps at 2HP, 115V. Right now I'm running 2 submersible pumps that run about 5amps each, 2 UV light (1.5amps total), 1 small pump for a fountain (1.5amps) and some landscaping lighting at about 3 amps. The breaker is only rated at 20 amps, needless to say i'm pushing it and it's costing me a bundle to run it 24/7. This pump will definately drop my power consumption because it will replace both submersibles and the fountain pump, a drop of 7 amps and with the airators that i'm also going to install i'll only have to run the filtration about 60% of the year.

The plumbing is 1.5inch ABS, I was going to go 2inch because I also heard that bigger is better, but was having problems finding 2inch connections for everything (Drains, Ball Valve, Check Valve, Filter, Pump, and UV lights), basically everything would be reduced to 1.5inch anyhow so I figure, go with the flow :)