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Home: KOI Talk: Pond Water Quality:
calcium carbonate

 




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larz1
Veteran


Jan 14, 2010, 8:02 AM

Post #26 of 34 (5308 views)
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Re: [fhkhew] calcium carbonate [In reply to] Can't Post

Just to add a few thoughts on these things.
Sodium Bicarbonate, Calcium Carbonate (in any form), and Bentonite Clays share some things in common, but they are very different.
All carbonates will buffer ph to a degree, but Sodium Bicarb is the "quick fix" for your emergency kit. Great for sudden ph drops, but it depletes more rapidly than Calcium Carbonate and must be re-dosed often if you wish to maintain a steady ph value.
Calcium Carbonate is a slower release but has much more long term buffering effect, assuming you have a sufficient amount for the volume of water. Many people use chicken grit (crushed shells) or whole shells in their filters and they are a long lasting source of steady buffering. One of the advantages to using Shells and Corals in a biofilter is the fact that most of the acids produced in a pond come from the bacteria. Since the bacteria will colonize the shells the acids are more quickly neutralized before the water returns to the pond.
Koi Clays are primarily Calcium Bentonite, but there are many different grades of this clay. Not all are created equally and may not always perform the way you expect. If they are of high quality the water will be enriched with silicates (good for sumi) and other trace minerals that are good for Koi health. The clays also have the advantage of absorbing certain pollutants from the water that are then removed when settlement chambers are flushed. Phosphate removal with Koi Clay is one of the reasons it controls algae problems as that is a vital nutrient for algae growth.
It also acts as a colloidal flocking agent to attract suspended solids (turbidity) from the water which are then removed in settlement as well. This is one of the reasons water treated with good clay has a polished look to it after a few treatments.


raistlin
User

Jan 14, 2010, 4:23 PM

Post #27 of 34 (5283 views)
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Re: [larz1] calcium carbonate [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Phosphate removal with Koi Clay is one of the reasons it controls algae problems as that is a vital nutrient for algae growth.



I see... Maybe that's why I have been able to go without a UV light for some time and the wall algae is greatly reduced. Didn't realise Refresh had that benefit as well! Thanks! Wink


larz1
Veteran


Jan 14, 2010, 5:16 PM

Post #28 of 34 (5277 views)
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Re: [raistlin] calcium carbonate [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, it is a nice fringe benefitCool Many ponders use it to polish their water thinking that it is simply because it gathers the unicellular algae, captures it, and takes it to settlement. That part is true, but the "starvation of phosphate" is actually the greatest benefit and its greatest advantage over U.V.
U.V. lights will interrupt the reproductive cycle for unicellular algae and since each cell has a short life cycle it dies off. The downside of that is that all of the nitrogen and phosphates contained in those cells goes right back into the waterUnsure When that happens other types of algae are able to feed on it and enjoy rapid growthShocked By absorbing the phosphate out of the water the clay interrupts the food chain and the hair algae comes under controlCoolCoolCool

It is important however to make sure the settlement is dumped regularly so it does not accumulate...
REMOVING the pollutants completely from the pond is key.


Lauts
Koi Kichi

Jan 15, 2010, 3:36 AM

Post #29 of 34 (5250 views)
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Re: [larz1] Bentonite clays [In reply to] Can't Post

Larry ,

Thanks for "clarifying" the issues. My impression has always been that clays promote green water via its minerals content but no aware that clays absorb phosphates. Since using the clays i have switch on the UV due to this fear, now i will switch it off and keenly observe. Wink To sum your (and others) comment as 'KPI' for good clay:

a) Inhibit green water via phosphate reduction. - hence settlement dumping is key.
b) Sumi enhancement via silicates and other minerals.
c) Removing pollutants via adsorption.
d) Removes turbidity giving polish look to water.
e) Trace minerals good for kois health.

Any explanation as to why some clays causes some kois to flash while some do not ? And also when same clay is used in different ponds.

Larry thanks , your experience sharing greatly appreciated.

ts


larz1
Veteran


Jan 15, 2010, 4:16 AM

Post #30 of 34 (5245 views)
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Re: [Lauts] Bentonite clays [In reply to] Can't Post

I think your list is pretty accurate and a good "rule of thumb" guide.

As to different clays performance or same clays acting differently in different ponds there are many things that come into play.

All Koi Clays are Bentonites, also known as Montmorillionite. Not all Bentonites are exactly the same, and that can make a big difference. As shown in the composition chart posted earlier there are general minerals that are common, but the percentages can vary wildly from one source to the next. Some bentonites are Sodium bentonite while others are Calcium bentonite.
Sodium bentonite is used for sealing as it absorbs huge amounts of water and swells up to seal off leaks in earthen ponds and dams. Calcium bentonite does not swell up to any great degree, but is a good flocking agent.
Some Koi clays are mostly Sodium bentonite that has been heat treated to make it perform more like Calcium bentonite.

Different mines also mill the clay more finely than others, and if it is coarse it may irritate the gills causing them to flash in an attempt to cleanse their gills. You may also observe them blowing bubbles to flush the filaments as well.

As to the same clays performing differently from one pond to another, there are several possibilities. First and most obvious is differences in source water. Clays will elevate kh/gh somewhat and adding it to soft water will influence Koi behavior and comfort differently than if added to hard water. Bioload of the individual pond also makes a difference as a lightly stocked pond with excellent filtration will undergo less of a radical shift in water chemistry than one that is heavily stocked or poorly filtered for the load. The regularity of filter maintenance and/or water changes can also influence this.

Phosphates are not the only pollutant adsorbed by these clays as they have been widely used in industry as a purification agent for many chemicals for decades. Those who experience sudden runoff from a potential pollution source or heavy rains from polluted air would do well to use Koi clay to help remove contaminants (along with water changes). It won't get them all, but it may help to minimize any ill effects.


gliong
Novice

Jan 17, 2010, 6:11 PM

Post #31 of 34 (5201 views)
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Re: [Lauts] Bentonite clays [In reply to] Can't Post

Tonight is the 5th time using your clay, dosage = 10gram per mt water (cut by half), my showa (used to be her) stop flashing but now my chagoi flash often for the first 2-3 hours. Little shiro remain motionless (float at one corner) after dose maybe due to afraid of the milky colour water.
Will start back the refresh to see if this happen again.

Regards,
George


dheensay
User


Jan 18, 2010, 7:59 AM

Post #32 of 34 (5157 views)
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Re: [gliong] Bentonite clays [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi George,
As mentioned in my earlier post, i had this same problem when using this clay. Instead of 1x dose per week, i broke the same amount down into 3x per week. This has had the following effect :

1. The "cloud" is not very thick anymore.
2. The koi dont flash at all (or rather, maybe just a wee bit)
3. My smaller koi ~30cm are not at all affected.
4. The filteration system clears the pond in under 2 hours, so its back to normal.

I would advice you try doing this instead. Like feeding, i prefer less amount, more times. Hope that makes sense.

Larry,
Thank you for the in-depth write up about the use of calcium, bentonite etc clay. As always, your in depth analysis is a great scientific approach to viewing the hobby.

KAAJ

www.dheensay.com for casual outdoor & banquet furniture!


Lauts
Koi Kichi

Jan 18, 2010, 8:08 AM

Post #33 of 34 (5152 views)
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Re: [gliong] Bentonite clays [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks George for feedback. Good idea to go back to Refresh and see what happens. My water is very soft 3 dKH and pH at 7.6. Nitrate at 10-20 ppm , i do not measure phosphate . Whats your water parameters , in view of post by Larz on different effect of koi clays in different waters.

rgd
ts


gliong
Novice

Jan 24, 2010, 7:56 PM

Post #34 of 34 (5080 views)
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Re: [Lauts] Bentonite clays [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry for late reply due to heavy work load lately.

My ph is around 8-8.5, intend to get pro to do the whole test later on coz I just finish doing some touch up & small modification today.
Thks

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