Koi Forum (Nishikigoi - Japanese Koi Fish): Koi Health: KOI Health and Disease: Fish scraping it sides then jump

Home


	MAIN INDEX	SEARCH POSTS	WHO'S ONLINE	LOG IN

Home: Koi Health: KOI Health and Disease:
Fish scraping it sides then jump

Koi38
Senior Member

Mar 13, 2005, 7:02 PM

Post #1 of 24 (2453 views)
Shortcut

Fish scraping it sides then jump	Can't Post

Hello guys,

I need your help, please Unsure

. Most of my fish flashes or jump. I've used Neguvon (10ml to 3000ltrs) 10 days ago but I think it didn't work. I've used it again today same dosage, kept an eye on my fish for at list 12hrs and still flashing Unsure

. I thought about using pool salt tomorrow. Can I do this and if yes how much salt how should I place in the pond? And is there any other way to cure the itch/lice?

Help me please coz some of my fish have scratches already Pirate

Thank you all in advance,
Jon

"DuKu Friendly"
_____________________________________
"No one is ever too old to know better"

http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/Koi38/

dechoong
Member

Mar 14, 2005, 1:13 AM

Post #2 of 24 (2444 views)
Shortcut

Re: [Koi38] Fish scraping it sides then jump [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hello,

Have you checked your water parameters? Kois flash or jump when there's a nitrite spike. If your nitrite reading is zero or very low, it is likely you have a parasite outbreak in your pond.

If you choose to administer salt to your pond, start with 3kg per ton of water (0.3% concentration). Salt will eliminate 7 of 9 parasites, but is difficult to get rid of when you want to dilute its concentration later unless you do many subsequent water changes.

My personal favorite is the commercial solution <Interpet> Anti-Parasite for Kois. It is a very safe means of solving various parasitic problems though it may take up to 5 treatments to eradicate the bugs, depending on which is giving your kois problem.

Some advanced hobbyist use Formalin, Potassium Permanganate, Dimilin, Chloramine T, SupaVerm, Malachite Green or Masoten. These medications are very potent and can kill your kois if overdosed. Also, you have to identify the type of bugs that is attacking your kois before deciding on which to use.

Below are some links with reference to parasite problems and their solutions.

http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/articles_cat.php?category=13&name=Medications%20&%20Doses&intro=Medications%20&%20Doses

http://www.koikichi.com/info/articles/antiparasite.html

Hope it helps.

Rgds,
Dennis

Koi38
Senior Member

Mar 14, 2005, 5:43 AM

Post #3 of 24 (2442 views)
Shortcut

Re: [dechoong] Fish scraping it sides then jump [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks for the advice. My parameters are all okay. I will those links and will decide from there.

thanks again,
Jon

"DuKu Friendly"
_____________________________________
"No one is ever too old to know better"

http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/Koi38/

Koi38
Senior Member

Mar 15, 2005, 6:54 PM

Post #4 of 24 (2417 views)
Shortcut

Re: [dechoong] Fish scraping it sides then jump [In reply to]	Can't Post

Well after the 2nd treatment with Neguvon, my koi still flashes but not as much as before. Today is the 3rd day since the treatment. I'm thinking of using salt. Should I wait for a few more days or I could just add this. My pond is Approx 3000ltrs and from what I read the recommended dosage is 0.3% per 1000ltrs= 300g, Is this right???

Your help will be much appreciated.

Jon

"DuKu Friendly"
_____________________________________
"No one is ever too old to know better"

http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/Koi38/

(This post was edited by Koi38 on Mar 15, 2005, 6:59 PM)

dechoong
Member

Mar 16, 2005, 1:43 AM

Post #5 of 24 (2399 views)
Shortcut

Re: [Koi38] Fish scraping it sides then jump [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Jon,

0.3% salt concentration is 3kg per ton of water (ie. 3kg of salt per 1000L of water). Since your pond is about 3000L (3 tons), you will need 9kg of salt.

I would suggest you wait to complete the full course treatment with Neguvon. I'm not familiar with this medication so I've no idea the number of doses required to get rid of the bugs. My personal experience with <Interpet> Anti-Parasite is the kois will only stop flashing (almost completely) after the 3rd treatment. <Interpet> recommends a total of 5 doses per course of treatment.

Rgds,
Dennis

Koi38
Senior Member

Mar 16, 2005, 1:07 PM

Post #6 of 24 (2388 views)
Shortcut

Re: [dechoong] Fish scraping it sides then jump [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Hi Jon,

0.3% salt concentration is 3kg per ton of water (ie. 3kg of salt per 1000L of water). Since your pond is about 3000L (3 tons), you will need 9kg of salt.

Rgds,
Dennis

Isn't that a lot of salt Shocked

Do I have to administer the whole lot in one go or 3kg per day. I read that salt will not harm your filter, is this true?

Thanks again,

Jon

"DuKu Friendly"
_____________________________________
"No one is ever too old to know better"

http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/Koi38/

dechoong
Member

Mar 16, 2005, 6:25 PM

Post #7 of 24 (2377 views)
Shortcut

Re: [Koi38] Fish scraping it sides then jump [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Jon,

0.3% salt concentration is the minimum you need to get rid of parasites. It is common to see Japanese breeders and dealers administer a 0.5% concentration. It could be due to the bugs developing resistance to the salt.

I have a 12 tons pond and had put in 36kg of salt over a span of 12 hours to prevent shocking the kois and bio system. The kois are fine but the salt concentration threw my biofilter out of balance, thus I have doubts about salt not affecting filters. My pond water just couldn't clear up till multiple water changes later which dropped the salt concentration to a very low level. I've hestitation about using salt as a remedy for parasite problems since then.

Rgds,
Dennis

Koi38
Senior Member

Mar 17, 2005, 5:39 AM

Post #8 of 24 (2359 views)
Shortcut

Re: [dechoong] Fish scraping it sides then jump [In reply to]	Can't Post

"DuKu Friendly"
_____________________________________
"No one is ever too old to know better"

http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/Koi38/

Koi38
Senior Member

Mar 17, 2005, 2:10 PM

Post #9 of 24 (2353 views)
Shortcut

Re: [dechoong] Fish scraping it sides then jump [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks a lot again Dennis.

Only a few of my koi flashes Smile

I might wait 'till this weekend to give Neguvon more time do it's job before administering salt.

BUT I'm not really sure now if I treating itch. Unsure

I was watching my koi yesterday and no one flashed. But in the afternoon one of my baby flashes a few times and then 5 or seven of them flashes on the same location Shocked

Could they be just playing Tongue

like follow the leader Sly

thanx,
Jon

"DuKu Friendly"
_____________________________________
"No one is ever too old to know better"

http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/Koi38/

dechoong
Member

Mar 18, 2005, 12:46 PM

Post #10 of 24 (2339 views)
Shortcut

Re: [Koi38] Fish scraping it sides then jump [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Jon,

If you really want to find out which parasite is giving your kois problem, you need to use a scrap and put the sample under a microscope. Personally, I find it tedious Unimpressed

That is why I chose to use a commercial solution which has proven to be pretty effective. As long it is a parasite, <Interpet> Anti-Parasite for Koi will take care of the problem (other than anchor worm). I have sachets of Potassium Permanganate, Masoten, Dimilin and other chemicals which I've not used because of their potency and the need to have an identification on the type of parasite.

If your kois are doing a gentle roll instead of aggressive rubbing on surfaces, they are fine. Kois exist in a symbiosis with their environment. It is a tricky balance of the kois' health and water quality that keeps parasites and diseases at bay. It is impossible to get rid of all the bugs, but a matter of keeping the kois healthy so their immune system can handle minor problems and controlling the bugs to prevent an outbreak.

Rgds,
Dennis

Koi38
Senior Member

Mar 18, 2005, 5:43 PM

Post #11 of 24 (2322 views)
Shortcut

Re: [dechoong] Fish scraping it sides then jump [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm not sure if I can tell the difference with my little ones, they more like flicking coz they do it pretty quick and more than once Frown

. And when it comes to my big ones they tend to kind of smell the area then they scratch/flash once or twice the most. Crazy

I maybe just reading a lot regarding parasites and every strange move of my kois' I get freak out. Maybe I'm paranoid about parasites for reading to much Sly

I think I'm the one who needs treatment Tongue

Thanks again Dennis for your help, I really appreciate this. Sly

Jon

"DuKu Friendly"
_____________________________________
"No one is ever too old to know better"

http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/Koi38/

dechoong
Member

Mar 18, 2005, 7:08 PM

Post #12 of 24 (2321 views)
Shortcut

Re: [Koi38] Fish scraping it sides then jump [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Jon,

Don't mention it. You are more than welcomed Smile

There are quite a number of "old hands" here like Dr. Tan (dttk), Bran (BranMuffin), Roger (rogermoo) just to name a few who are really knowledgable and more than willing to lend a hand.

Rgds,
Dennis

Koi38
Senior Member

Mar 19, 2005, 4:59 PM

Post #13 of 24 (2302 views)
Shortcut

Re: [dechoong] Fish scraping it sides then jump [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'll try to post some pics of my pond under "Member's Pond"

Thanks again Smile

Jon

"DuKu Friendly"
_____________________________________
"No one is ever too old to know better"

http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/Koi38/

viper99
Koi Lover

Apr 17, 2008, 5:42 PM

Post #14 of 24 (1578 views)
Shortcut

Re: [dechoong] Fish scraping it sides then jump [In reply to]	Can't Post

hi Dechoong, I wonder if we cud use salt say 0.5% along with Interpet Anti-Parasite, since its contain formadehyde or formaline which cud not be mixed with salt. What will the effect if we use it together with salt. Based on your experience how effective is the interpet anti-parasite to kill flukes (gills & skin). thanks.

You know it's addicted and cost you a lot of money, but still doing it!

viper99
Koi Lover

Apr 20, 2008, 9:05 AM

Post #15 of 24 (1522 views)
Shortcut

Re: [viper99] Fish scraping it sides then jump [In reply to]	Can't Post

anyone know, pls help?

You know it's addicted and cost you a lot of money, but still doing it!

sunshinekoi
Member

Apr 20, 2008, 7:51 PM

Post #16 of 24 (1515 views)
Shortcut

Re: [viper99] Fish scraping it sides then jump [In reply to]	Can't Post

Viper99,
The 5 days course of the interpet anti-parasite, from my experience, can eliminate most of the external parasites. It's a powerful agent. I have not add any salt during the treatment. It works well.
what sign does your koi shows? Are you pretty sure it is parasite attack and not caused by adverse water parameter?

Sunshine

viper99
Koi Lover

Apr 21, 2008, 7:34 PM

Post #17 of 24 (1473 views)
Shortcut

Re: [sunshinekoi] Fish scraping it sides then jump [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi sunshinekoi thanks for the reply, yes I ve checked water parameter amonia = 0, PH = 7.9 nitrit= 0, I ve salt the pond for .55% for 10 days and some fish still flashing. I ve also tried dimilin with 2 treatement with 4 days interval. Now I am thinking of either Masoten or interpet anti-parasite. I ve no microscope so just try my best, any advice?

You know it's addicted and cost you a lot of money, but still doing it!

sunshinekoi
Member

Apr 21, 2008, 9:34 PM

Post #18 of 24 (1461 views)
Shortcut

Re: [viper99] Fish scraping it sides then jump [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Viper99,
can you give more detail? Apart from flashing any other symptom? Are the fins clamp or red? Did you do minor water change during the treatment just to keep the water fresh? I would suggest after your treatment with dimilin, leave the koi as it is (say 3-4 days). This is to give the koi some rest from medication. Do water change or overflowing, if possible. Provide a lot of air to keep the koi active.
Sunshine

viper99
Koi Lover

Apr 21, 2008, 9:58 PM

Post #19 of 24 (1458 views)
Shortcut

Re: [sunshinekoi] Fish scraping it sides then jump [In reply to]	Can't Post

some fish I noticed swim with only 1 fin and the other fin is clamp, but its not always. Other than that there is no sign of redness except for one tancho that the whole body has redness this has been for a month but the fish still eating well so that other fishes. I have added new fish before and I suspect this is where the thing started. I also notice see some sparkling things near the head and pectoral fin on some fishes which I suspect is ich, but after salt for 0.5% for 10 days fish still flashing so it cud be something else.

You know it's addicted and cost you a lot of money, but still doing it!

(This post was edited by viper99 on Apr 21, 2008, 10:00 PM)

sunshinekoi
Member

Apr 21, 2008, 10:47 PM

Post #20 of 24 (1453 views)
Shortcut

Re: [viper99] Fish scraping it sides then jump [In reply to]	Can't Post

Are you able to take a closer look at where you suspect the lice is? I used to remove them physically but not sure how big and tamp is your koi. If it is not comfortable to do it, then dont. I am not sure how effective is anti-parasite against it. Sorry, can't help much as I have no experience on removing lice using anti-parasite before.
Sunshine

koi@kit
Senior Member

Apr 22, 2008, 9:34 AM

Post #21 of 24 (1431 views)
Shortcut

Re: [viper99] Fish scraping it sides then jump [In reply to]	Can't Post

hi there..

if its a lice, demilin or mesoten shud easily kill them off.. as for white spot, salt can do the trick but make sure ur temperature is consistant.

interpet <koi's anti parasite> is good for skin or gill parasite (dat is not visible to our eyes).

check water parameter carefully. get a new set of ammonia and nitrite tester if possible..

remember :
1.stress is the number 1 killer of kois.
2.fluctuation of pH or temperature causes stress.
3.koi must rest from any medication treatment,
4.lots of treatment with medication can stress koi.
5.mix of medication can b deadly..

good luck

viper99
Koi Lover

Apr 22, 2008, 11:03 AM

Post #22 of 24 (1424 views)
Shortcut

Re: [koi@kit] Fish scraping it sides then jump [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Koikit, thanks for your advice. So far I ve salted the pond and use demilin, so the one left over should now be only flukes since both will not kill this bugs. I plan to keep the salt for about 0.5% for about 2 weeks, meanwhile I would like to try Interpet Anti-Parasite to fight the fluke and ich (if its still survive from salt) but Im worry about the salt since it will mix with formaldehyde which contain in interpet (contain formaldehyde as stated at the bottle label, but it didnt saya cannot mix with salt). If I ve to wait until all salt diluted by water it will be to long while the some fish is still flashing. What do you think will it be safe for the fish?

You know it's addicted and cost you a lot of money, but still doing it!

koi@kit
Senior Member

Apr 22, 2008, 1:47 PM

Post #23 of 24 (1414 views)
Shortcut

Re: [viper99] Fish scraping it sides then jump [In reply to]	Can't Post

wat u can do is to change 20% to 50% of ur water, this way ur salt can b diluted easily.. use a salt meter to check if ur salt level is on the safe side . rest for a few days than treat with anti parasite..

good luck

viper99
Koi Lover

Apr 23, 2008, 9:07 AM

Post #24 of 24 (1391 views)
Shortcut

Re: [koi@kit] Fish scraping it sides then jump [In reply to]	Can't Post

last night I ve applied neguvon (similar to masoten) got it from one of fish dealer that told me to dose 0.3 - 0,4 g/ton for 2 times with 4-5 days interval, so I applied 0,35g/ton with current pond salt level is .45%.
I ve read somewhere that we can dose 0.6 to 1 g/ton depend on PH not sure which one is correct, and I was told that the higher the PH the more danger for the fish if we over dose and it might destroy fish nerve that make the bone bend, so to be safe I just follow koi fish dealer dosage.
This morning I found that kois are look more active and happier. I still saw some fish flash but with much lesser frequency compare to yesterday. If I understand correctly neguvon not only kill flukes but almost all kind of parasite thats include anchor worm and ich (white spot), correct me if Im wrong.
I am happy that this time seems it works. I will reapply neguvon after 4-5 days later. Any advice?
Anyway I thank all of you that hav given me a very helpful advice so far. Wink

You know it's addicted and cost you a lot of money, but still doing it!

(This post was edited by viper99 on Apr 23, 2008, 9:28 AM)

Search for (options)

Back to Koi.com.my Main Page

Disclaimer Privacy Statement
Copyright 2001~ 2002 Hileytech Sdn Bhd , All Rights Reserved.
No part of the forum postings can be copied without prior permission from Hileytech Sdn Bhd and the Author of the Posting.
For comments and Suggestion, Please contact the Webmaster at koi@hileytech.com