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Please Help> I'm so Lost

 





 


LisaLisa
New User

Jun 24, 2008, 5:50 AM

Post #1 of 9 (612 views)
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Please Help> I'm so Lost Can't Post
HI, my name is Lisa and I'm having a melt down! First I've had my pond for about 5 years. Every year when it gets warm I have problems. But this year My fish are flashing. I thought it was ich. I've salted for a week at .3 of salt. They are still flashing every once in a while. I do not see any thing on the fish, no grains, no spots, no sores. They just flash every day. I have 3 koi, 5 comets, 2 large channel catfish, and about 100 comet fry. I tried medication a few weeks ago but read that it was harmful to catfish, so I stopped. Then I went to salt after some large water changes. After I salted the pond I found the babies. My ammonia is so high, I've made water change every 2 days and it's still high. What am I doing wrong? Is it ich? How long should I salt? Does too much salt hurt my catfish or my fry?
I know I'm rambling I just love my fish and want them happy and healthy. So to recap:
pond is about 2000 gallons
fish have ben flashing for 4 weeks
no signs of sores or spots
Have ben salting for over a week
Shouldn't' the flashing stop by now?
Ammonia is at .50 it was at 0.1 I clean the pond and filter often
I also bought an aerator
Can anyone calm me? Give me any advice? Please help me I'm driving myself nuts.
Thanks for listening
Lisa


needucho
Koi Lover

Jun 24, 2008, 11:14 AM

Post #2 of 9 (603 views)
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Re: [LisaLisa] Please Help> I'm so Lost [In reply to] Can't Post
hi Lisa, flashing means something bother koi on their skin, it can be: water parameter off, heavy bacteria, parasite or just city water add something new in their water. Amonia .5 is high, it can kill koi in long run. You have to fix that first. on a long term basic. I'm sure you can do that without my help. If the koi flash when you change water, then stop changing. Most of chemical that city put in water evaporates in 2,3 days. do that first then slowly find the problem, Parasite is ruled out, itch you can see like spraying white salt on the fish body. salt won't hurt anything in a short term. some people. like me, i keep salt in pond 2 months when temperature start get warm in spring. The inmune system of fish are very low at this period of time, many thing can happen when you are weak. they react profoundly with everything that they do not like. Some people warm the pond !!! Now, you have only amonia, Bacteria, City water, Fish inmune system to be check, follow that and you can slowly eliminate one by one, and i'm sure only you can do it.
oh by the way, if you thing it is itch, you have to salt .6% in 2 weeks.
samantha

(This post was edited by needucho on Jun 24, 2008, 11:17 AM)


LisaLisa
New User

Jun 24, 2008, 11:52 AM

Post #3 of 9 (594 views)
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Re: [needucho] Please Help> I'm so Lost [In reply to] Can't Post
Thanks Samantha,
I really am loosing my mind! I think I really screwed up with too many changes. I kept changing the water and cleaning out the filter with fresh water. I do have filtered private water, but I think I may have killed the good bacteria with all this cleaning. I really can not get a grip on the ammonia. I do water changes every day or every other day, and add salt. How big of a water change can I do? I've ben doing about 20%. This is all going on too long about 4 weeks. I think I' going to bring the salt up to .5 or .6 like you suggest. Do you think that he salt can raise the ammonia and nitrate?
I know I'm still rambling! I just cant bear to lose my fish or have them hurt. Every year I lose some to disease and last year I had a fungus out break I treated too late and my koi oeby (One Eye Bastard ) lost his eye because I did not act fast enough. His name was jaws, and I worry too much about him.
Oh Do you think the salt could hurt the fry or the catfish?

Thanks so much
Lisa


needucho
Koi Lover

Jun 25, 2008, 2:43 AM

Post #4 of 9 (568 views)
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Re: [LisaLisa] Please Help> I'm so Lost [In reply to] Can't Post
humm, seem like you are in real stress, i do not suggest you bring salt up to .6%. it will cause iritation on the fish, .3% (3# per 100 gallon) is standard, do not go over it if you keep that long. Try to figure out why amonia too high. a salt .6% kill a lot of bacteria too. No salt do not raise amonia and nitrate, it reduce nitrite. Stop doing water change now, a week you can change when you clean up filter about 10, 20%. Relax and think scientificly what ever you do. When you clean out filter with fresh water (have chlorine in it the chlorine will eliminate all good or bad bacteria. only clean filter with existing pond water. i think that probably is the problem. keep thinking.
samantha


wayneb
Koi Lover

Jun 26, 2008, 6:43 AM

Post #5 of 9 (544 views)
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Re: [LisaLisa] Please Help> I'm so Lost [In reply to] Can't Post
Dear Lisa

Salt is only going to help if it is Ich (Whitespot). If your fish are flashing then it means that something is irretating them. I suggest that you get someone with a microsope to take a scrape of the fish to see what it is. If it always happen closer to summer then it is parasites as the activity of parasites increase during the warmer months. Spring time is usually the most dangerous time as the kois imune system hasnt had time to adjust and the parasites take advantage of this time.
Look at this article - http://www.koiadventures.co.za/Home.aspx?Page=UsrGeneric.ascx&Rec=292 hopefully it will help you identify which parasite you have.

If you do not know anyone with a microscope you can try and do blind Potassium Permanganate treatment but it is usually best to try and find out which parasite it is. Potassium Permanganate treats most of the parasites and is a cheap treatment but be warned that it is not as easy as other treatments. Also take care not to overdose!!

I suggest you use 3g Potassium Permanganate per 1000L. Remember to also buy hydrogen peroxide at 20 ml per 1000 litres. Rather buy more hydrogen peroxide than what you need just incase you make your potassium to strong. These items can be bought at any chemist.

If possible bypass your bio filter as the patassium will affect the bacteria in it. If you are bypassing your bio filter during the treament you have to repeat this treatment 3 times with 3 day gaps in between...This is to nail the parasites that may be living in you bio filter...they have to come out and feed at some point.
Try to maintain the treatment for at least 6-8 hours. All oxygen equipment like airpumps and water falls must be running during this period. Watch your fish during this time for signs of severe stress. Note that during this treatment you cannot take a chance and leave your fish alone for longer than 30 minutes. It is normal for them to look unhappy, breath a little fast and appear somewhat listless while under treatment. They should still react if you approach the pond. If they do not move when approuched, wave your had over them. If they still do not move, it means it is time to end the treatment.

IF you can't keep the water pink for 6-8 hours you can add another 1.5 grams of potassium per 1000 litres pond water.

When you decide to end the treatment, add Hydrogen Peroxide 20% at a rate of 20 ml per 1000 litres of pond water. The water will start to clear within about 10 minutes.

Dechlorinator or hydrogen peroxide in the water will inactivate the treatment (for 2 days).

REMEMBER!!! ALL UV LIGHTS, PROTEIN SKIMMERS AND OZONATORS MUST TO BE TURNED OFF DURING ANY TREATMENT

www.KoiAdventures.co.za - We help make the hobby fun!

(This post was edited by wayneb on Jun 26, 2008, 6:50 AM)


zoul
Member

Jun 26, 2008, 5:54 PM

Post #6 of 9 (524 views)
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Re: [LisaLisa] Please Help> I'm so Lost [In reply to] Can't Post
Dear LisaLisa

Stop everything your doing...... calm down relax.

Stop adding slat to your water and do not add any treatments just yet. Especially Pertasium Permagnigate as this reacts badly with salt in ponds.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned cleaning your filter with fresh water.

So the best thing to do right now is stop changing the water, and buy yourself a bacteria start up thing for your filter and mybe some activated carbon to absorb some of the amonia.

Sort out the water first it will take a few weeks but don't panic.

Also stop feeding or at least cut down on the amount you feed.

Also arn't channel cats predortory? they where sold by some garden centers as pond fish but grow enourmous and eat anything that fits in their mouth so i understand.

So to sum up little water changes of about 10 to 15 % once a fortnight and if you need to wash filter media do it with the water your changing. not the tap water.

But most of all don't panic.


wayneb
Koi Lover

Jun 26, 2008, 10:25 PM

Post #7 of 9 (515 views)
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Re: [zoul] Please Help> I'm so Lost [In reply to] Can't Post
Zoel, your recommendation that you have given to lisa is propably the safest option but i have never heard anyone say that Potassium permanganate reacts badly with salt. I have persoanlly used it for the last three years and neither ponddoc.com or koivet.com mentions that incompatibility. I know there are some medications that react to salt but i don't think Potassium permanganate is one of them.

I found the following articles:

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.aquaria.marine.reefs/2006-01/msg00534.html - this article states
"For most fish, potassium permanganate can be administered at a concentration of 2 mg/L as a long-term bath (four-hour minimum) in fresh water or salt water systems. "

http://www.sakoia.org/Koi%20Tutorial%20Lecture.pdf by Douglas Dahl a ZNA Judge mentions "Salt and potassium permanganate always work for me"...


www.KoiAdventures.co.za - We help make the hobby fun!


LisaLisa
New User

Jun 27, 2008, 4:06 AM

Post #8 of 9 (494 views)
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Re: [wayneb] Please Help> I'm so Lost [In reply to] Can't Post
Thanks soooo much Guys,
I have calmed down , some. Thank you all for all your information and your support. All my friends think I'm nuts about my fish. But they hope in the next life they may be one of my fish. I think I'm going to buy pond start, just in case I killed the good bacteria. I'm going to stop over salting. and wait for the ammonia to go down. I hope the flashing will stop when the ammonia goes down. We"ll see. I've had so many bacterial, fungal, and parasitic thing in my pond in the last 5 years. And all I really see now is flashing. I see no real bumps, sand, threads or fungus on them. I read where ammonia can irritate their skin. I have no idea how the ammonia spiked up like this? I test every week and its always perfect. We had a hot spell, I saw my fish get frisky, then the flashing, then the babies. I have had about 30 babies in tank in the house and their ammonia is a little high too but not like the pond. Oh, as for my catfish, meow and skinny they are fabulous! I love Love Love them. They have never ben aggressive towards any of our other fish. They are clumsy and a little blind and bump into other fish, rocks and planters, but never mean. The other fish use to give way to them, but the last year or so they bug the catfish. My smallest koi, creamsicle, follows meow all the time and he could fit into his mouth easily. I worry about the koi and the babies more then the catfish. They do grow big,we got them at almost 2 inches and now they are 12 to 14 inches. Thank you all for getting me to focus. I was panicking and stressed I appreciate you all. Wish me luck.
Lisa


zoul
Member

Jun 27, 2008, 7:46 PM

Post #9 of 9 (482 views)
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Re: [wayneb] Please Help> I'm so Lost [In reply to] Can't Post
Dear wayneb

I see what your saying and read your article with intrest, i understand that koi can and do tolerate salt levels on a long term basis of 0.3% and pertasium permagnigate will only be slightly impared at this level. But on a personal level i do hate to see fresh water fish living in brackish envoiroments.

Also many commonly found fresh water parasites are now becomming tolerant to this level of salt, like Darwin said addaptation is the key to survial. So i always recoment salt baths at quite high concertrations for short periods rather than buffering the water.

I think the key in this situation is not to over react becouse of the ammonia irritation to the fish. As they have spawned latley it cant be that bad. But as you know spawning dose increase the ammonia around the eggs , this is natural in the wild it would break down rapidley and be turned into nitrates for thr frys first food of algy and this would be food for other inverts like daphnia. In the pond though being a closed system things can get out of hand rapidly. And with filter maintance inexperance soon a problem could arise.

It's always worth noting that experiance is the key when using Pottasium Permagnigate, as ponds with bottom drains and well maintained koi pond with very little debris will need less than a pond with an acumilation of sludge. Ponds with plants in baskets vegtable filters an array of pebbles and stones are nightmares to predict the correct dosage rule of thumb being 2mg per litre but have more ready just in case. Salt diminshes PPs poropertes and hydrogen peroxide increases it.

Anyway best course of action is definatley find out first what you are dealing with and then treat. not such a good idea to panic and start adding all kinds of medication to a pond we don't wish to kill with kindness.

 
 
 



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