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KOI TALK WITH MOMOTARO'S SON

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koi@kit
Senior Member

Jun 5, 2006, 10:54 AM

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KOI TALK WITH MOMOTARO'S SON	Can't Post

Hi all..

just want to share some information regarding koi keeping including koi feeding, pond water quality (usage of BH) and koi bloodline with u all, if any of u got question regarding the 3 point mentioned please do ask n we all can share in this forum the informations. most of the information will be base on the information i learn recently from momotaro koi farm's Daisuke san..

rgds
kit

kemeer
Member

Jun 5, 2006, 11:17 AM

Post #2 of 50 (1780 views)
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Re: [koi@kit] KOI TALK WITH MOMOTARO'S SON [In reply to]	Can't Post

Very interesting thread...... Smile

Lets start the 1st question with Bloodline considering the recent update of the Momotaro Ryu Sanke Grow-out being released.

Q: So cifu what traits/characteristics in terms of growth potential and skin quality can we expect from the Ryu Bloodline? What about the Mako Bloodline? Sakurahime? Eagle? Bentley?

Koi38
Senior Member

Jun 5, 2006, 11:34 AM

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Re: [koi@kit] KOI TALK WITH MOMOTARO'S SON [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sai Lo Kit,

Atm I'm interested in Momotaro food. Here where I live momotaro koi pellets are available. Do you know or would you know how effective or how good their food is like what is the full benefit of this food disregarding the koi bloodline Smile

You input will be much appreciated Wink

rgds,
Jon

"DuKu Friendly"
_____________________________________
"No one is ever too old to know better"

http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/Koi38/

koi@kit
Senior Member

Jun 5, 2006, 11:51 AM

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Re: [kemeer] KOI TALK WITH MOMOTARO'S SON [In reply to]	Can't Post

wow cifu kemeer..

ur question surely hard to answer.. hehehhehh

here go.. RYU bloodline got magoi blood in them. so in term of grow rate they sure grow big.. momotaro is famous for their sanke anyway, momoko n RYU are their famous sanke bloodline. but dont believe me 100% as only a few thousands out of the million produce will be of exceptional quality..

from this blooline also u can expect ink-jet sumi, some may imerge at early stage and some in later years, some will come n some will dissapear n come back again..(sorry for the 'english')..

their sanke usually start girth out at later age, they usually look longish when young.. if they girth early, chances is... well.. no comment.. Wink

didnt really ask daisuke abt sakurahima, eagle n bently bloodline.. soo not much comment..

thank u for the queston..

cheers

koi@kit
Senior Member

Jun 5, 2006, 11:57 AM

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Re: [Koi38] KOI TALK WITH MOMOTARO'S SON [In reply to]	Can't Post

hi master cifu..

when i asked daisuke about their feeding routine.. he said.. morning they feed momotaro pellets, lunch pumpkin and tofu, evening ard 4pm momotaro pellets..

he said koi got no stomach, the best protein source for them is from vegetable ie tofu.. but he also state dat another good protein is from fish.. the reason why they feed pellet is the koi pellet itself got digestive enzyme inside, which is very beneficial to koi digestion.. the feeding depends on oxygen contain in pond .. if they found out something wrong from the koi they usually stop feeding up to 4 days until water stabilise, in summary, feeding koi depends on water quality.

when water quality gone bad, they add 'onitaiji' to purify it.. any thing is .. more oxygen more good bacteria, thus better koi's digestions..

i hope i answer ur question.. may be a bit out of ur question. please do comment if not clear..
cheers

Koi38
Senior Member

Jun 5, 2006, 12:11 PM

Post #6 of 50 (1769 views)
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Re: [koi@kit] KOI TALK WITH MOMOTARO'S SON [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sai Lo Kit,

Bravo, very well explained indeed Cool

He was right about koi for not having stomach. When koi eats they digest the food and absorb all the nutrients and the rest goes out Tongue

My koi fast 2days a week due to work commitments Frown

but when I'm around they get spoiled. He was also right about water quality, we can feed our koi as much as we want but we have to be sure that our filter can cope the massive waste from koi or else Pirate

Looks like I'll be buying momotaro pellets this summer Wink

Thanks again Grandmaster Sifu Kit Smile

rgds,
Jon

"DuKu Friendly"
_____________________________________
"No one is ever too old to know better"

http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/Koi38/

DLIM
Koi Lover

Jun 5, 2006, 1:04 PM

Post #7 of 50 (1760 views)
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Re: [koi@kit] KOI TALK WITH MOMOTARO'S SON [In reply to]	Can't Post

Dear Grand Master

Blood line-No interest
Food-No interest
BH-ya..ya...! So how to get the best out of BH? shower, submerge or.. Tongue

koi@kit
Senior Member

Jun 5, 2006, 1:38 PM

Post #8 of 50 (1751 views)
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Re: [DLIM] KOI TALK WITH MOMOTARO'S SON [In reply to]	Can't Post

hahah cifu DLIM..

i guess u r not intrested coz u r expert oredi hahahahhah just kidding.. Wink

very good question u go there deniel..

So how to get the best out of BH? shower, submerge
let me explain the basic of BH, BH house lots of bacteria, good bacteria, lots of bacteria needs lots of oxygen.

water itself contain only 1 molecule (spelling??) of oxygen.

when using Bakki Shower, the water must be explosive.. it actually break the one molecule of water into several molecule making more oxygen. make sense? so more oxygen will encourage more good bacteria. During the explosive behaviour also will break many contaminents or organic waste thus making water pure and soft.. why a lot of people use BH and still water not in top conditions? simple.. the turn over rate or water dat hit the BH is not strong enough. the stronger the better.. a lot recomment 2x the turn over rate, some might use 4x..

as for submerge, water had 1 molecule of oxygen, thus the bacteria growth will be minimum. unless u provide ur submerge BH with very strong areations.. strong areation not only give lots of oxygen but also prevent waste from sticking on the BH. but according to the master from momotaro farm, eventhou the outer part of BH is dirty the inner part still house lots of bacteria..

so u decide which is better, submerge of shower.. the latest from the master is 'shower is better'.. Wink

.. but it all depends on how ur turn over rate is.. Laugh

and also if theres power failure the inner part of BH will still be wet thus when power supply come it only take a while for the bacteria to grow again..

i hope i answer ur question.. please feel free to comment some more..

many thanks

cheers

koi@kit
Senior Member

Jun 5, 2006, 1:43 PM

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Re: [Koi38] KOI TALK WITH MOMOTARO'S SON [In reply to]	Can't Post

yoo master cifu jon.. Cool

forget to mention this, he also said better to let koi digest their food at a longer time, ie not feeding them too often as too much food inside the intestine will create problem especially when the oxygen in water is low.. in simple word.. 'do not force feed the koi to make them grow.." let them grow naturally, too much feeding will end up as koi waste not koi size.. Wink

.. i surely learn my lesson Unsure

rgds
kit

Koi38
Senior Member

Jun 5, 2006, 1:46 PM

Post #10 of 50 (1747 views)
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Re: [koi@kit] KOI TALK WITH MOMOTARO'S SON [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sai Lo Kit,

From duscussion with the master if feeding less but frequently say every 2hrs, would that consider as force feeding koi even though koi finished the food in 5mins??? Crazy

rgds,
Jon

"DuKu Friendly"
_____________________________________
"No one is ever too old to know better"

http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/Koi38/

kemeer
Member

Jun 5, 2006, 1:51 PM

Post #11 of 50 (1746 views)
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Re: [DLIM] KOI TALK WITH MOMOTARO'S SON [In reply to]	Can't Post

Good question DLIM.. and "Welcomen back!!!" hahah got World Cup virus already....

Anyways, yeah cifu kit?

Q:How can we get the best out of BH? As i understand it, it works many times better w/ a shower filter than a submerged filter. That true??
Q:I also understand it that it is a maintenance free media, meaning don't have to clean the media, EVER!! So wouldn't the Sh*t collect and clog the media and also wouldn't it cause the pond area to stink?
What is the required ratio for ??BH:??tons of water???

koi@kit
Senior Member

Jun 5, 2006, 2:13 PM

Post #12 of 50 (1736 views)
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Re: [Koi38] KOI TALK WITH MOMOTARO'S SON [In reply to]	Can't Post

tai lo jon..

he said at temperature of 24'c, they feed 3 time a day only. sometime 2. the amount of food given depend on the size of koi, smaller koi eat more, bigger koi less.. he didnt say about the 5 min rules.. from the discussion, yes every 2hr is too stressful to the intestine, the force feed i mean is to feed the koi more than their intestine can take..

something like hundreds gram per kilo of koi's body weight.. more than this is over feed..

i also managed to ask about why koi got bug eyes..

cheers

koi@kit
Senior Member

Jun 5, 2006, 2:21 PM

Post #13 of 50 (1732 views)
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Re: [koi@kit] KOI TALK WITH MOMOTARO'S SON [In reply to]	Can't Post

yoo cifu kemeer

Q:How can we get the best out of BH? As i understand it, it works many times better w/ a shower filter than a submerged filter. That true??

yes. unless u can provide the submerged with lots of areation, then the effect will be the same.

Q:I also understand it that it is a maintenance free media, meaning don't have to clean the media, EVER!! So wouldn't the Sh*t collect and clog the media and also wouldn't it cause the pond area to stink?

as mentioned, the water turn over rate must be high. with the 'explosive' shower, no sh*t will clog. unless ur water
flow throu is very low ( just like those for trikle tower).

What is the required ratio for ??BH:??tons of water???

very good question. long time ago people recommend 7kg per ton, later some said 10kg per ton.
from the master.. depends on the koi u keep, the more koi the more BH is needed, heres the ratio..
20ton pond, 10 70cm koi, 2 time feeding a day, 300kg BH... more feeding : more BH, better water : more BH
when asked about how many KG of BH used in their 1500ton pond, he just smile and said 'a lot'.. Sly

cheers
kit

sunshinekoi
Member

Jun 5, 2006, 2:26 PM

Post #14 of 50 (1731 views)
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Re: [Koi38] KOI TALK WITH MOMOTARO'S SON [In reply to]	Can't Post

Jon,
Just to add on to what Kit said on the feeding. The master said they have done a test on the feeding pattern with 2 ponds of fish. The one that feed 2-3 times a day is actually growing faster than the one that were fed 5 times a day. Therefore the master recommend not to force feed them as their stomach cannot that that much of food with amount of time given.
Sunshine

koi@kit
Senior Member

Jun 5, 2006, 2:30 PM

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Re: [sunshinekoi] KOI TALK WITH MOMOTARO'S SON [In reply to]	Can't Post

president sunshine..

many thanks for the extra information.. really need ur help here Sly

.. two brain is better than 1 hahahahahahhahaha..

cheers
kit

sunshinekoi
Member

Jun 5, 2006, 2:36 PM

Post #16 of 50 (1725 views)
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Re: [koi@kit] KOI TALK WITH MOMOTARO'S SON [In reply to]	Can't Post

Just blast me the questions and I will help Laugh

Sunshine

DLIM
Koi Lover

Jun 5, 2006, 3:28 PM

Post #17 of 50 (1712 views)
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Re: [koi@kit] KOI TALK WITH MOMOTARO'S SON [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks Master

m...m.... shower is better.....have to start looking for stainless steel contractor to make BS.

koi@kit
Senior Member

Jun 5, 2006, 3:33 PM

Post #18 of 50 (1708 views)
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Re: [DLIM] KOI TALK WITH MOMOTARO'S SON [In reply to]	Can't Post

cifu DLIM..

i got a contact doing stainless steell.. the problem is .. very hard for him to quote th price.. Crazy

...

i m planning to do a basket tower... may not be nice to look at but the effect is the same. i think Unsure

please do remember, the turn over rate must be 2x to 4x.. the water flow throu the BH must be 'explosive'.. if ur water flow throu the BH just like tap water, dont expect full potential of BH Tongue

..

another thing is to use the correct amount of BH vs water tonage vs number of koi kept vs feeding pattern..

good luck
kit

Koi38
Senior Member

Jun 5, 2006, 3:45 PM

Post #19 of 50 (1705 views)
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Re: [sunshinekoi] KOI TALK WITH MOMOTARO'S SON [In reply to]	Can't Post

Master Sifu Kit and Sunshine,

I'm with you so far but if they're not into the 5min rule then you feed your koi 3 times per day how would you know if they have too much or not enough(considering the weights of each koi are different) Crazy

This is a blast for the sifu Laugh

rgds,
Jon

"DuKu Friendly"
_____________________________________
"No one is ever too old to know better"

http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/Koi38/

sunshinekoi
Member

Jun 5, 2006, 4:12 PM

Post #20 of 50 (1698 views)
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Re: [Koi38] KOI TALK WITH MOMOTARO'S SON [In reply to]	Can't Post

Jon,
This is what I understand by experience and also with the advise of dechoong. The first fed of the day is always a lot as the koi are hungry. The second and third fed of the day starts to slow down as koi filling up their stomach and digesting. Measuring the total amount intake that the koi can take per day from there and then divided that by 3 times. Feed them morning, noon and evening or you can do 2 feeds per days and that means you have to divide the total amount by 2. As times goes you can adjust your food to what you feel is right. 5-10mins feeding is good enough according to the master.
We hope we answer your questions Sly

Sunshine

sunshinekoi
Member

Jun 5, 2006, 4:18 PM

Post #21 of 50 (1697 views)
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Re: [koi@kit] KOI TALK WITH MOMOTARO'S SON [In reply to]	Can't Post

DLIM,
when your koi starts to shine, that's the time your BH is telling you it is working. Laugh

Your water will tells you a lot also when it is good! Wink

Sunshine

(This post was edited by sunshinekoi on Jun 5, 2006, 4:21 PM)

kemeer
Member

Jun 5, 2006, 5:11 PM

Post #22 of 50 (1691 views)
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Re: [koi@kit] KOI TALK WITH MOMOTARO'S SON [In reply to]	Can't Post

Cifu,

I get what your saying. So basically the BH will not function effectively if it is set-up in a drum full of BH even with high water flow. But will work better if there are gaps between portions/tiers of the BH containers. how many feet do you reckon the gap should be from i tier to another??

Koi38
Senior Member

Jun 5, 2006, 5:32 PM

Post #23 of 50 (1690 views)
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Re: [sunshinekoi] KOI TALK WITH MOMOTARO'S SON [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Sunshine,

That was a very good explanation Smile

I never thought about the first feeding part before Cool

.

Please bare with me for asking too much questions and hoping not to upset anyone as you all know I/we don't have japanese bloodline koi here and we have to make the most of what we have. Obviously with feeding we still have to consider the weather or the water temp too, don't we Wink

Hmmmmm I might send a wakeup pm to Sifu dechoong for not sharing his secret Tongue

Thanks again for you input mate.

rgds,
Jon

"DuKu Friendly"
_____________________________________
"No one is ever too old to know better"

http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/Koi38/

koi@kit
Senior Member

Jun 5, 2006, 8:17 PM

Post #24 of 50 (1684 views)
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Re: [koi@kit] KOI TALK WITH MOMOTARO'S SON [In reply to]	Can't Post

tai lo jon..

just to add a bit of info that sunshine missed out.. the 1st meal which is the most of food must be of good digestable food..
usually u can feed paste with yogurt or momotaro 'mix' which contain special ingredient good for digestion..
paste with yogurt is info from cifu vincent of kepongkoi.

wat i learn from daisuke is dat they estimate the koi's total weight then estimate the amount of koi food to be feed. divide the food to be feed in the am n pm.. i think this is also the way dechoong is doing.. Laugh

.. but i m not sure how many kilo of koi food to be feed to how many kilo of koi's body weight Unsure

..

rgds
kit

koi@kit
Senior Member

Jun 5, 2006, 8:22 PM

Post #25 of 50 (1683 views)
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Re: [kemeer] KOI TALK WITH MOMOTARO'S SON [In reply to]	Can't Post

cifu kemeer..

not sure anout the gap between tray. but the maximum height for the bh in the tray shud not be more than 1 ft..
my guess is the higher the gap the harder the water will hit the next bh.. problem is.. too much splashes.. Unsure

u can use drum for bakki shower purpose, but the effect might be less effective as those with trays. but turn over rate play more important role here. even using tray with low water flow will not be as good as drum with high water flow..

rgds
kit

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