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Tategoi, high grade koi or Standard Koi ??

 





 


sunshinekoi
Member


Sep 4, 2006, 10:51 PM

Post #1 of 10 (1470 views)
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Tategoi, high grade koi or Standard Koi ?? Can't Post
All,
Everybody wants to have the best koi in their pond. But how best is best is your expectation? By farm? by bloodline? by skin quality? by body structure? by pattern? or all the above by ranking order. Some people prefers what they see as we speak and expect it to be the same or even better, some people likes its potential future looks. Exactly what are you looking at? Standard koi , high grade koi or tategoi? How do you differentiate between these 3 categories? Don't tell me it is price different, I know that Mad. I am asking apart from that. Please kindly shed some light!! LaughSly I know there are too many questions mark that confuse you!! Sly In short, my question is how do you know you are owing a standard koi, high grade koi or tategoi? Different between them and please give example, if possible. Pictures speak a thousand words. I know too many cifus out there can answer these easily, ain't it??

Thanks,
Sunshine Wink


koi@kit
Senior Member


Sep 5, 2006, 8:58 AM

Post #2 of 10 (1456 views)
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Re: [sunshinekoi] Tategoi, high grade koi or Standard Koi ?? [In reply to] Can't Post
mr president..

very intresting topic u start here.. i m sure not much people will reply u... BUT... i will b the 1st to say this...

for me.. i m looking at a tategoi.. 75cm above standard with good skin quality ... of course.. to achieve this i must have GOOD bloodline.. BUT... good bloodline doesnt mean my koi will grow to my desire length n skin quality.. at least with good bloodline i m confident they will grow to dat size n quality PROVIDED i can achieve HIGH quality water..

with good water my koi can digest food much better, more active and healthier in long run..(dats y i m trying hard to achieve 0ppm nitrate hehehehhe)...with healthy koi then i can achieve good skin quality..Sly

feeding high quality koi food is as important.. without proper nutritions my koi will not be healthy..

in short.. BLOODLINE 50%, WATER QUALITY 30% and KOI FOOD 20%....

i m not a big fan of pattern ... koi of good pattern but only 30cm is useless... but koi of 90cm with so so pattern will be impressive.. wat do u say??... and also.. high quality koi dont come cheap... a cheap koi will never turn to a high quality koi... this is a fact...


rgds
kit


kohaku_doitsu
Koi Lover


Sep 5, 2006, 9:39 AM

Post #3 of 10 (1450 views)
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Re: [sunshinekoi] Tategoi, high grade koi or Standard Koi ?? [In reply to] Can't Post
speaking of standard, high grade n tategoi what is your opinion about this sakai kohaku, she's a nisai 50cm+ , my most expensive koi so far ..
any chance to be a jumbo by looking at the body structure ..?




sunshinekoi
Member


Sep 5, 2006, 10:50 AM

Post #4 of 10 (1437 views)
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Re: [kohaku_doitsu] Tategoi, high grade koi or Standard Koi ?? [In reply to] Can't Post
Kohaku_doitsu,
Plainly BASED on the body structure in the pictures, in my opinion and no offence Shocked, the kohaku body has started to belly up (could be due to overfeeding) and more round. I would say the growth rate has slow down. Maybe it can go to 70cm but pushing hard. A potential jumbo koi normally shows its slimness and long shape. When it begins to reach its life length, the body will start to round up. The bonus point on this koi is it has big mouth and thick tail tube. If you happened to know the parent koi, length and ages, that will tell you more how much it can potentially grow to. So the time may prove my judgement wrong.Sly

Sunshine


sunshinekoi
Member


Sep 5, 2006, 11:33 AM

Post #5 of 10 (1434 views)
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Re: [koi@kit] Tategoi, high grade koi or Standard Koi ?? [In reply to] Can't Post
Great Grand master Cifu Koi Kit,
Very sweet and short summary on tategoi criteria and environmental condition! Sly A great grand master is always a great grand master! One point I will add on is to maintain that optimum condition for a koi to live that healthy and long, the water parameter must be narrow range and constant plus optimum. I havent achieved that yet. Pirate %^&* it!!

30cm koi with good pattern is not useless lah. Just a level of appreciation and knowledge in koi keeper eyes are different. In the eyes of koi keepers, their favourite koi will be their best one and all these will based on their knowledge about koi. When one learn more about koi quality and selection on different aspects, one knowledge will be increased and looking forward for a better koi. Thus a high grade koi in the eyes of one person, when knowledged and experienced, it may turn up to be a standard koi by proper definition. Vice-versa, the koi can turn up to be a tategoi which you may think it is just an ugly duck in the very first thought and first look.

To achieve 90cm plus even with not too impressive pattern, I would say it is still a high achiever. High achieving in the sense that a lot of delication to grow that big. Good water, good space and good feeding all contribute to that size. I would still salute the person. If your expectation is high say good body structure, good skin quality and pattern, good bloodline, then it is never enough for you when any one of them didnt achieve your target. This type of koi is not very common to see outside Japan. That will be the one that can win many competitions since young till 90bu and above. Some of them may keep behind the back yard of those breeder as parent or secret weapons. Sly

Sunshine


kohaku_doitsu
Koi Lover


Sep 5, 2006, 12:51 PM

Post #6 of 10 (1428 views)
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Re: [sunshinekoi] Tategoi, high grade koi or Standard Koi ?? [In reply to] Can't Post
thanks for ur comment sunshine, maybe because of overcrowding Frown n the fact that my pond is not big enough some of my koi started to put on girth too early but my koi in my dealer pond are doing very well in term of growth, i want to cull some of my koi but did not have the heart to let them go ..
i'm planning to move this kohaku n some other koi into a bigger pond in my local dealer so that it can reach maximum potential which i cannot do so in my pond ..
also planning to build a new pond maybe in the next 2 year, what is ur suggestion about the volume of the pond that can accomodate 20 koi into 80 cm+ size ? what about 8mx4mx2.5m ?
i don't know about the parent, i bought this koi from a fellow hobbyist who bought it directly from japan ( Sakai ) ..
as a beginner Tongue i tend to choose koi that has nice pattern n colour, i don't have the knowledge about body structure maybe u can advise me in term of body structure, what to look for n what to avoid ?
thanks ..


sunshinekoi
Member


Sep 5, 2006, 2:01 PM

Post #7 of 10 (1422 views)
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Re: [kohaku_doitsu] Tategoi, high grade koi or Standard Koi ?? [In reply to] Can't Post
Kohaku_doitsu,
Please take note that you have started to move away from the main topic. BUT....I will try to answer them, to the limit of my knowledge.

1. Do you really need that 2.5m deep? If it is tropical climate, I would suggest 1.5m. Rule of thumb for big koi is 2m3 per koi and so your pond size is more than ideal. Please note that rule of thumb is also vary according to people but 2m3 is minimum for me.
2. To have a good body structure, it is better to have a good bloodline to start with which I am not saying an unknown koi is no good. It is just easier to predict and spend less time in choosing. There is a good reference somewhere in Singapore forum talking about the body structure which will answer give you more detail. I intend not to write more as it is just repeating itself. In short, if you view from the top, the head must be big with big mouth, thick tail tube, long body and long-wide tail. On the side, the height of the koi is high comparatively to the length of the body and the tail has thick "flange". It must have good strong shoulder. At young age, less than 30cm, if you see that protuding shoulder develop, tategoi will not show that feature but at later years. Laugh

If you intend to owe a good koi that satisfy most of the criteria, it is better to get a koi that come with cert. as it guarantees quality. You can then pick up a lot of learning from there.

Hope this explain a little bit. Laugh

Sunshine


dechoong
Member


Sep 6, 2006, 3:21 AM

Post #8 of 10 (1382 views)
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Re: [sunshinekoi] Tategoi, high grade koi or Standard Koi ?? [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi sunshinekoi,

Knowing the bloodline allows you a certain degree of insight on the growth characteristics and physical traits of a young koi. Not all young koi that looks the same grows the same... much is dependent on the physical traits of the oyagoi.

All things being equal, this is how I differentiate a standard koi, a high grade koi and a tategoi. I presume we are talking about a young koi

1. Standard koi - Will be the way it is now. Do not expect much improvement in terms of body conformation and skin quality as it grows. Most are your average males or run of the mill females from your average breeder. Quality may deteoriate as the koi gets older. Forget about bloodline if this is what you are looking for, and do not expect it to get much bigger than 60cm.

2. High Grade koi - A quality male or a decent female from recognised bloodline. Koi of this calibre usually have pretty decent body conformation and good skin quality. Quality holds much better through time as the koi grows with good chance of some improvement. Should not have problem growing up to 70cm and above upon maturity.

3. Tategoi - The pick of the litter. These are the koi that improves as they grow, and sometimes even beyond the breeders' expectation. Most, if not all are females and are usually the offsprings of some famous bloodline. They are prized because they have a much higher tendency to take after the positive traits of their parents as they grow. Tategoi may not be much of a looker when young, but they improve in almost all aspects as they grow... and they may not stop improving for many years! Remember that many of Japan's GC are 8-10 years of age. Most will reach at least 75cm on maturity.

Now, the million dollar question is how many of you can identify a standard koi, a high grade koi and a true tategoi at less than say 30cm Wink? I think a relative novice can tell the difference comparing 5 year olds... a true sifu will be able to spot them when young Angelic.

Cheers,
Dennis


kemeer
Member


Sep 6, 2006, 9:04 AM

Post #9 of 10 (1374 views)
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Re: [sunshinekoi] Tategoi, high grade koi or Standard Koi ?? [In reply to] Can't Post
Good Morning Mr President,Tongue

Interesting topic, yet a tough one to crack. My believe towards this arguement then is that, "the beauty of the koi is within the beholder" or simply put how the owner sees it. I am sure not many koi keepers would want to keep poor quality koi, and am sure that they would rather go for Higher quality ones. But then again w/ this, we must accept that not all can afford the financial value the koi demands......

Coming back to your question, kois can be seen as a luxury item where BRAND plays an intergral part in determining its quality. BRAND here fistly referes to the farm that it comes from, then the bloodline of the koi.

From the differentiation of brand qualities, you can expect to have established most of the criterias leading to a high quality koi; Can it become Jumbo, can it maintain good skin quality, can it produce a good line of baby koi for the future.

In short to try an answer your question on how one can know one is owning either a standard koi, high grade koi or tategoi, is by its brand. then accessing it by critiquing on its overall quality, growth rate, body conformation/structure, skin quality and maybe the overall imposing pattern it gives the accessor.

Will continue on this soon as they are also goods and bads towards going by BRAND itself....

Cheerio...Blush


kemeer
Member


Sep 6, 2006, 11:26 AM

Post #10 of 10 (1364 views)
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Re: [kemeer] Tategoi, high grade koi or Standard Koi ?? [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi all,

Coming back to this topic "BRAND". I'm sure most will have arguements on the quality of individual brands like for say those farms selling tategois & tateshitas to our dealers. So how can we differenciate? Honestly speaking, only the breeders or True koi Kichis can differenciate between them. Crazy

Like all luxury brands, there will always be a tendency of dealers trying to make a quick buck by selling "imitation", "copy" or ""licensed" koi to hobbyist w/ the proclamation that it is of high or tategoi quality. In this respect, the only way to differenciate between the true high quality and tategoi is by its certification from the breeders itself, indicating that they are of high quality, thus the indication of its monetary value. Sorry to say, this is the only way that i see possible in differenciating between the quality of koi.... But then again, there will also be a dilema as certificates can be easily produced...... So how then can we know what quality koi A, koi B, koi C is? Honestly speaking, i believe only the breeders and true koi kichis can again determine this, as with experience comes better knowledge....

Sorry cifu if i have strayed WAY BEYOND your question.... heheheh.... Angelic

 
 
 



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